Why Progressive Evangelicals don't confront fundies collectively

I have noticed a recurrent theme on the fundie war as perceived by a vocal minority of DUers that I would like to take on in hopes of finding some more peaceful coexistence here on DU. This is not intended to be be flame bait... i only want dialog. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and everyone is welcome to chime in. But I do not want this to digress as so many threads do.


First of all a definition: Is Progressive Evangelicalism an oxymoron. Some would say absolutely. I say "hold on". It is my belief that Jesus was precisely that. He never focused on what today's moral police do (Moral aberrance and moral absolutism) rather spoke of taking care of widows and orphans, the hungry, the poor, but he also healed the sick, cast out demons and brought sight to blind eyes.His intention was two-fold in every instance: Help those in need and evangelize All of which is pretty cool stuff (stuff I might add that non-evangelicals on both the left and the right never seem to get to.

My religious problem with the fundies is that they have pretty much forgotten the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus' discourse in Garden of Gethsemane as John records it. They would rather deal with society's problems politically than with evangelism which is supposed to be there primary purpose. Jesus had little compassion for the Pharisees who took precisely the same tact. Fundies start from a really stupid and arrogant assumption that America was divinely endowed for a special place in Christian and world history, but don't deal with the sins of the past like slavery and the slaughter and internment of native americans. Worse they think God will rule supreme in the land again if we can just get Him back in the Classroom (Mandatory prayer, Creationism-Intelligent Design, and faith-based abstinence education only). As if a largely secularized institution should be doing their bidding? It is not only arrogance, it is malignant neglect of their prime responsibility to be theme\selves salt and light as Jesus commands. Their tactics so clearly betray the call of Christ to the point where I believe they dishonor God and that is why, thank Hod, they will never achieve their goals.

Now having said that it's my perception that the driving force behind nearly all of their machinations is a search for relevance in a post modern world )and admittedly funding that quest by raising their rabble and backing candidate who will do their bidding.) Two issues stun me the most about the approach are:

First, that the candidates they choose or rarely evangelicals, they are typically fairly secularized conservatives who are typically glomming on to an agenda they have no desire to implement. Were that so they would be legislating at the federal level on abortion when Reagan was in the Oval. They certainly should have been doing it during this presidents term.

Secondly, that their quest for relevance centers on political power rather than spiritual power. Jesus taught there is strength in humility; that in weakness we are empowered. These folks are so busy protesting Harry Potter and bad TV that they do not have time or the inking to simply and humbly pray, worship and enjoy the empowering presence of God. I suspect that is because if they took some time to listen rather than scream at the world they would have to change their tactics.

My Fundie friends are wrong on their tactics and are being duped into believing they can be effective with their approach. I take them on individually in my daily walk...but......

Here is what my progressive friends need to hear as well. The ONLY WAY to effectively confront these folks in terms they understand. I am not saying on their terms...but on "Terms they understand". To this unabashed evangelical it really is simply about Jesus. From my perspective I am not looking to convert a single Fundy to progressive politics; I am simply trying to get them focused on how un Christ-like and counterproductive social fundamentalism is to His Cause.

Some on DU have called progressive Christians out for not standing and railing against the Fundies as a collective countering force. There are two problems with that tact. First: There is no rallying point, there is not leader of progressive evangelicalism in the US. MLK is the closest we have ever gotten to anyone approaching that type of stature the could cross denominational divides. There are Christians who are progressives and even denominations that have a progressive slant, The problem with both is that they tend to promote progressive politics more than Jesus and they are rarely bastions of evangelical fervor.

Because of their lack of evangelical focus, they are typically ignored by the Fundamentalist movement. WHich seems sort of silly because the Fundies have pretty much ignored how their tactics have pushed more souls away then they have attracted.

Look FUndies are a scary lot when viewed from the outside..their motivation are typically very genuine and heartfelt but their tactics and hypocrisy are what make people scream. I get that.

Progressives who find themselves among fundies in a religious setting can be very effective, but likewise we also value the community itself and what Christ commands. Progressive evangelicals believe in the power of prayer; we believe in being Christ-like in what we do; We believe in only doing what God instructs us to do. It is not our desire to stand in the middle of the sanctuary and call our friends on the right a "brood of vipers". If it comes to that I am perfectly willing to do so if He instructs me to do so. But you also have to understand that in a religious community friendships run very deep and the price for such actions would be pretty substantial.

So I am content to run my little counter insurgency and wear my bumper-stickers and buttons proudly and simply dare some on to question me about my politics.

I come to DU to find some solace and support as do other Christians whether evangelical or not. I don't feel persecuted here in the least I just wish some of you would be willing to give a little more slack, a little more respect and a little more understanding.

Let it linger for the Saturday morning crowd still waking up on the west coast...

The religious right has been implementing their program under Bush, in areas such as abortion restrictions, stem cell research, and faith-based initiatives. They are doing this more today than under Reagan because the GOP has more become the party of the religious right in the last twenty years. If the GOP remains in power and becomes even more an arm of the religious right, watch for this trend to accelerate.



The problem with that approach is it inevitably devolves into a theological discussion, of your Jesus versus their Jesus. It's almost impossible for anyone who isn't Christian to partake in such conversation, for the simple reason that we don't have a theology of Jesus. I suspect it sometimes works between Christians, in much the same way that conversion works.

It is basically a theological discussion"Terms they understand" It is esssential that they be shwon the disconnect betwenn the faith we share and the politics the espose. ANd it reall can't be effectively accomplished by those who do not have the theological foundation to contend with them.

I tend to run circles around them and they almost always wind up conceding their purported moral high ground for say that I am right.

On your iniital comment. I think they nibble at the edges on abortion at best enough to keep the base mollfied. Bud no one in the House or Senat has offeed a constiutional amenement on the issue in years or at least not one that was not DOA.

As one who is not Christian, but considers Jesus to have been one of the world's great teachers, I see many other non-Christian liberals who do a better job of walking the walk than too many of the fundamentalists who use the guise of religion in politics to try to win friends and coerce people.

And we all know many Christians who do try to live as their savior proscribed. We do need to ally ourselves with them and work to build understanding that true faith is not the issue. The subversion of faith by those who twist it and followers for their own worldly purposes IS a problem. We need to exercise critical thought in knowing the difference between those who do try to live as their master taught and those who use faith as just another tool of oppression. We ALL need to learn to recognize the difference.

Reading Jimmy Carter's latest book. He has always been one of my heroes and this book, Our Endangered Values, points out a lot of very simple facts about the subversion of Jesus' teachings by those who want power and want to justify their greed as being godly.

Reading some passages aloud to my husband, an old school constitutional and fiscal conservative who also admires Carter got this response: 'Jimmy, what took ya so long to say that publicly?'

I guess I share his question. What is taking so many progressive Evangelical Christians so long to public ally voice their observations that what is being too often being done in the name of Christ is completely contrary to the teachings of Christ?

One of my fatal flaws is failure to understand why so many will just wait for things to balance instead of working toward balance. The master taught patient acceptance of much. But didn't he show and teach that there are times to challenge those who lie and use religion as a beard? No scholar, I, but, did I get the wrong impression from what little Christian education I have?

Wasn't Jesus an activist part of the time? Didn't he rattle cages when he saw hypocrisy and deceit?

How do we join the hands of the secular liberals and the Evangelical Christine liberals? I know so many people who are not Christian yet live their lives with values closer to Jesus' teachings than so many of the loud, overbearing control freak xians. It can't be that hard for us to join hands and work toward a better, healthier society.

How can either Progressives or Progressive Evangelicals find common ground other great issues of the day without the risk of compromising core beliefs?

Progressive evangelicals don't want to be tagged as being pro-abortion because it would hurt our effectiveness in the Christian Ghetto where choice is the same as being pro-abortion.

As a practical matter such an alliance allows the RW to get out a very broad brush to paint us as more liberal than evangelical and that puts us in the same boat as Barry Lynn and the World Council of Churches: Completely ignorable.

But in the name of solidarity, I would suggest that religious liberals need to get thicker hide and not let the Pharisee define them to themselves and others.

It was probably a tough issue for Carter, the abortion thing. But he managed to separate his personal beliefs and the civic duties he chose to assume.
When confronted by leaders of the xian right, as he mentions in his book, he saw that there was a difference in personal and civic. While he did not work actively in pro-choice movements, he did respect the rule of law and did not join the anti-choice movement who accused him of worshiping the secular. Seems he didn't bow to Falwell's attempt to define him.

Perhaps more of us need to follow that example. Don't want to be tagged as pro-abortion? Me neither. But I AM rabidly PRO-CHOICE as I do not feel I should be able to tell others when life begins and what they can/can't do about it. I have often seen horrible consequences for innocent children born to parents who did not want them or could not care for them. I do not see that they should be punished by being born to such conditions.

I do not define life. Nor do I allow others to define me. Work actively FOR the liberal issues you want to support. There are enough issues there that one need not let one issue define them. Freedom is for those who brave being different.

Peace & strength to you, fellow traveler. Peace, strength, and self definition ;)

hm

I see that you did not cover in your well-thought-out post, is that Fundamentalists look out on the world and think in generalities and do no concern themselves with individuals. They think of "abortion" rather than the 12-year old who needs one. They think of "homosexuality" and not of the lonely young man who needs affirmation. It is so easy to judge when you look fro afar.

I personally attempt to back out of the world view and look at the individual. I think the "world" has always been, and continues to be, something to move away from and not towards. Most of the time I don't like the world very much. But I have rarely met a person I couldn't like, or even love, given the chance.

I take it from the "grannie" in your name that you've been around awhile and learned a few things. Great post!

My experience has shown that the true RW Fundies simply cannot think in terms of individuals.

Their leaders have mastered the art of teaching them to think only abstractly.

The "lonely young man" could be their beloved son--but when he comes out, he is magically transformed into one of "them." (I know of someone with an eerily similar experience.)

if we can get to them on an individual level we can change them.

I guess you're a better person than I, because the last time I set foot in a church I did stand up in the middle of the sanctuary and call them all a bunch of hate-filled hypocrites. To each his own I guess.

What did this particular group do to merit that?

In an attempt to appeal to an old geezer who asked what to do about his 3, all 3 mind you, wayward daughters; the pastor chose to go down the jezebel line and that no man would want these soiled women. While my 13 year old daughter was sitting there listening to this crap, not to mention my sons didn't need to listen to that sexist shit either. There was other stuff, but that was just the last straw. I have absolutely no use for these hate-filled churches and that's all that most of them are these days. I honestly do not understand why any progressive minded person would step foot in them.

Ther are plenty of churches that are nothing like that. Not even close

Let's see, there's the church my daughter went to, where her youth pastors are now involved with the Justice Sunday stuff. One of her friends has ended up with some musical cult group. Another, who had everything in the world going for her, is doing god's will by pumping out babies. My son's friend's mother was so psycho about her church, a different one, that she literally stopped twice to throw up, and insisted on going to church anyway. I know several Jehovah's who are being shunned in our little town. Then there's our local Catholic Church, ugh. I can't tell you how many girls my daughter knew who got pregnant, went out of town, and "had miscarriages". There are only 2 churches in my town that I would even consider attending, the Lutherans and the Episcopalians, but I'm not particularly interested in dogma anymore either. I'm honestly glad if you've got a tolerant place to worship, I've just never found it.

I was sorely tempted to yell out several times during bad chapel sermons at my evangelical college and once with a visiting priest who preached on the beheading of St. John the Baptist by focusing on the women in the story.

I even took on a popular pastor in town once in college, the sexist idiot, after church. He used as his example for some silly thing a car engine and then apologized to all the women in the congregation for using something we could never understand. I come from a engineering family that raced dirtbikes, so I understood what he was trying to say, but I was really angry at how he'd done it. Afterwards, he asked me why I was so angry in his receiving line after church, and I let him have it in front of everyone. He wasn't too happy with me, and that was the last time I went there.

I had to leave that evangelical church--I'd seen too much. I went on mission trips from their college, and I talked to too many people. I had a real crisis of faith, and then I went on a semester of study to Russia. It's definitely not perfect, but the Orthodox Church came the closest to the theology I believed and was the most forgiving and merciful. Sexism is a problem, but most believers and priests I know aren't. Homophobia is a problem, but there are many of us working on that. Bigotry is a problem, and many of us are working on that, too. Overall, it's the best I could find. You might find that the Episcopal church in town is a better place for you, if you find that you need corporate worship and a place to help others.

(my father, until I get married this summer)

I have no great answers to that. Most evangelicals will listen to what I say if I can reconcile it to our faith; for example, most Christian churches opposed the Iraq war, and I can name them. I think there are a lot more evangelicals on DU now than there were when I first got here (search for a thread called "ask an evangelical dude") and that is a positive thing.

Basically, be able to justify your positions with scripture. That still won't convince a lot of people though...I've noticed that with my father, for example, we view the world completely differently. He believes in evangelism by speaking, and I believe in evangelism by doing- if someone really wants to become a Christian, he/she would understand it better by being served than by being preached at. If I mention praying for world peace or something, he completely doesn't understand. It doesn't enter his radar at all. But I was much the same way, until I started hanging out with this socialistic Christian commune after September 11. :)

With evangelicals, it takes that kind of experience to realign your worldview...being "born again" AGAIN.

DB

and tell you how much I smile when I see your name. Being a Kansan it always makes me start for just a second and then follow that with a smile.

They understand "evangelical" as meaning "persaonl relationship with Jesus," though, as opposed to "convert people so they won't go to Hell."

both pro and con. I thought surely my favorite protagonists on the issues would have chimes in on the points I brought up. Maybe I actually made some sense to them for a change....Nahh that could not happen

I can say that it seems when you ask for respect, you don't necessarily want to hear what I have to say. But sinced you asked for it...

The fact is that atheists, agnostics, and general disbelievers make up a significant fraction of Democrats, maybe even as much as hard-right fundies in the GOP. We don't want to chase you away, but it can be hard pussyfooting around the churchies. From my perspective, you might as well be professing your devotion to Poseidon or Ra.

Of course, I hope that more Christians come to the Dem side of the aisle, and I don't really see any ideological obstacle to that. But I do think that part of the problem with religion is the tendency of believers toward blind faith. It's this blind faith that we see in evangelicals' unwavering support for Bush and his cronies even in the face of copious documented evidence that they are thieves, liars, and killers. If these people would think for themselves, rather than absolving themselves of their responsibility to do so, I think the situation would be much improved.

As to the fact that there is not a progressive evangelical leader, perhaps this is because they don't represent the beliefs of much of their brethren. I think you may give your fellow congregants more credit than is due when you say it really is about Jesus. It seems to me that Jesus' message, or his followers' interpretation of it, nearly always mimics the preexisting prejudices of each given congregation. In other words, if you're against homosexuality, then so is Jesus. If you're against universal health care, then so is Jesus. There's a chicken-and-egg causality problem here. The problem is that once you've decided Jesus agrees, there is no reasoning with you. The effect is that often ill-informed opinions are set in stone and non-negotiable, because that's what Jesus said. This mindset is destructive and would be even if it promoted a liberal agenda.

Only about 15% of the US population is non-religious. They are not all Democrat, and the ones that are make only a minority of the party. Most Democrats, like most Republicans, are Christian. Obviously, Christian Democrats are not part of the religious right. There is quite a broad range of Christian thought. Some Christians are more-or-less open to secular reasoning on moral and political issues.

Like you, I'm a non-believer, and so there is no way for me to make a Christian appeal. At the same time, we should be cautious not to lump all believers into one bucket.

:hippie:

I am a former Evangelical Christian, and I agree with what you're saying.

Recommended!

Evangelical Christian here as well. The lack of progressive evangelical leaders is definitely an issue. Organization is another issue. Your point about the fundamentalist or Christian Right largely ignoring Progressive Christians becuase they aren't sufficiently Evangelical is spot on. I can literally only think of two or three Progressive Christian figures who's Evangelical credentials are such that they can even get the ear of conservative Christians.

That is why Jesus said not to fret about government but to devote one's self to helping fellow man. I believe if Jesus had lived during a time of Democracy where a vote of the people establishes the form of government they live under Jesus may have had more to say about trying to keep government on the path of righteousness. I'm not sure if Jesus was "commanding" behavior or requesting it. I don't know if Jesus living in this day and age may not be like a Jerry Falwell or a James Dodson. Who knows? :shrug: I do believe that Jesus would never have advocated government helping Corporations before and over helping people. I do believe Jesus would have advocated for the people to get politicly involved so as to keep Government for the people at all times for the people. Different times create different missions.

"The problem with both is that they tend to promote progressive politics more than Jesus"

I really can't comment much on it, as I don't know too much about the finer points of Christianity--I always zoned out in the CCD classes my mother forced me to take before I told her there was no way in hell (no pun intended :D) that I was ever walking in there again. I would like to get into comparative religions someday--just looking at all the different texts and practices of world religions. Religion fascinates me, in a rather distubing manner--kind of like the car crash that sickens you, but you just can't look away.

That said, I thought your post was very good, very thoughtful--I understand where you're coming from. I DO wish more progressive Christians would stand up, though. We heathens don't seem to have a direct line to the fascist fundies' ears.

:hi:

"It's not my problem."

Cmon what are you really saying?

I think it is my problem....I have vested self-interest in pulling my brothers and sisters away from the clutches of the Fallwellians.

It is my problems and I think I am doing a pretty fair job at the issue.

is that both you and the fundies pick & choose which bits you want to believe.

You latch on to the liberal ideas. They pick the conservative ones. There's plenty of ammo for both sides, since the bible is such a hodgepodge of ideas & stories.

What I see from many DU Christians is this unspoken attitude that "I know that Christianity is deep down liberal and good, and I know that I don't really have to go out of my way to confront false Christians because God will eventually work into their hearts and all will be well. If not in this life, certainly in the next." A sort of divinely-inspired complacency.

When you said that Jesus didn't have a lot of moralizing to do, you're wrong. He most certainly did - and most of it was directed at the hypocritical fundies of the era, like the Pharisees. He expended quite a bit of energy confronting them, and dealing with those who took advantage of holy institutions for their own gain. (Throwing the money changers out of the temple, anyone?)

Of course Jesus did engage in a bit of moralizing, but even more noticably, completely failed to provide clear answers on some moral issues not only of the day (instructions on how to beat one's slaves, but not on how slavery is wrong - gee, that could have prevented a whole lot of nastiness) but issues that would become important as time went on. Homosexuality, for instance. He's silent on the issue - how hard would it have been to drop a line in the Sermon on the Mount about people being free to love whom they want? Clear and precise, so no one could misinterpret it?

And another thing, Jesus' words in the bible also make it pretty well known that those of us who have no religious beliefs can never be forgiven. (Mark 3:29, Matthew 12:31) So clearly his message of tolerance was not universal.

But you pick the parts you like, and extrapolate from them, and the fundies do the exact same thing. Neither of you like what I have to say, and neither of you really will listen to an atheist's opinion on your holy book anyway.

If not, spend a few minutes at their website. You'll be glad you did:

http://www.christianalliance.org

heard this teaching, really almost an order, direct from the mouth of Jesus many times:

"When you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogue and at the street corners that they may be seen by men... When you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray..." Matthew 6:5-6

This is not at all inscrutable. It's very easy for Christians and non-christians ALIKE to understand. Jesus said DON'T PRAY IN PUBLIC! He said PRAY IN PRIVATE.

STILL - fundies AND evangelicals completely defy and deny Jesus on this important admonition and adhere instead to the "false teachings" of today's Pharisees, such as Robertson and Falwell and insist on praying in public "like the hypocrites." And then they wail and moan and claim to be persecuted because they aren't permitted to force their Jesus defying public prayers of hypocrisy onto our children in our public schools.

If Jesus himself can't get through to the fundies, as recorded in this straight forward passage from scripture - I think they have probably been hopelessly brainwashed by the Pharisees and we should stop fretting over them and stop thinking we have to devise ways to get their votes.

Progressives need to go after, attract and motivate people who haven't been voting at all. There are enough disaffected potential progressive mom-voters that could be turned to voters so as to landslide the fundies right out of the inordinate amount of public policy influence they have been enjoying to the detriment of the rest of us.

confronting these fundamentalists.

The Interfaith Alliance is only one. I joined the local chapter here in my area. www.interfaithalliance.org

Also read the articles of Father John Dear www.johndear.org

There is also Jim Wallis and Sojourners. www.sojo.net

Just because people have never heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist.

The Witness.

I believe it is www.thewitness.org

Hey, since I've been here, I have debated or, as some people call it "Christian-bashed" a fair bit. I don't much like religion and I think its a waste of time, energy, and resources. But I have to admit, that I've always felt uncomfortable with the idea that its up to progressive christians to battle the Constantinian Christians. First of all, its hard enough for the majority of progressive people out there (and most americans are progressive, they just dont know it) to fight the neocons, even though they are the minority. With no rallying point, its a hard fight. And we also have to remember than about 70 percent of the people out there dont even know there is a problem. They don't even understand what right wing and left wing mean.

And really, how do you fight the right wing christians? Argue with them, they don't listen. Unless you want to start killing people, there isn't much progressive christians call really do except call them out when they say something stupid. The last thing I want to see is a holy war here on our continent.

The thing that really bothers me as an atheist, however, is that a lot of people are way too defensive about their religion. If I say something bad about right wing christians, there are immediatly people chewing me out. Even if you stipulate that it is just the right wing christians that your attacking, you get progressive christians attacking you and telling you that they aren't "real christians" and that I have to be careful not to "attack christianity". They tell you that it's not the religion thats making them that way, its that their bad people. And I completely disagree...I think religion has a big influence on who they are. If the right wing were not christians, would they necessarily be so anti-choice, so anti-gay, so ant-science, so anti-birth control, and so anti-atheist. No, they wouldn't, because without the bible or religion telling you these things are wrong, its not logical to be so hateful. At worst they would be ambivalent. They may still be pricks, but they wouldn't be pricks with an agenda, which is what really sucks.

In fact, I anticipate a lot of the christians on here are probably going to attack me for posting what I did, and tell me religion has nothing to do with the problems we have, and that I should quit christian bashing rather than agreeing with me that we have a problem with a group of people who are too religious. And thats par for course. If we can't even see there is a problem, how can we fix it.

Evomane\

I have noticed a recurrent theme on the fundie war as perceived by a vocal minority of DUers that I would like to take on in hopes of finding some more peaceful coexistence here on DU. This is not intended to be be flame bait... i only want dialog. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and everyone is welcome to chime in. But I do not want this to digress as so many threads do.


First of all a definition: Is Progressive Evangelicalism an oxymoron. Some would say absolutely. I say "hold on". It is my belief that Jesus was precisely that. He never focused on what today's moral police do (Moral aberrance and moral absolutism) rather spoke of taking care of widows and orphans, the hungry, the poor, but he also healed the sick, cast out demons and brought sight to blind eyes.His intention was two-fold in every instance: Help those in need and evangelize All of which is pretty cool stuff (stuff I might add that non-evangelicals on both the left and the right never seem to get to.)

My religious problem with the fundies is that they have pretty much forgotten the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus' discourse in Garden of Gethsemane as John records it. They would rather deal with society's problems politically than with evangelism which is supposed to be there primary purpose. Jesus had little compassion for the Pharisees who took precisely the same tact. Fundies start from a really stupid and arrogant assumption that America was divinely endowed for a special place in Christian and world history, but don't deal with the sins of the past like slavery and the slaughter and internment of native americans. Worse they think God will rule supreme in the land again if we can just get Him back in the Classroom (Mandatory prayer, Creationism-Intelligent Design, and faith-based abstinence education only). As if a largely secularized institution should be doing their bidding? It is not only arrogance, it is malignant neglect of their prime responsibility to be theme\selves salt and light as Jesus commands. Their tactics so clearly betray the call of Christ to the point where I believe they dishonor God and that is why, thank God, they will never achieve their goals.

Now having said that it's my perception that the driving force behind nearly all of their machinations is a search for relevance in a post modern world )and admittedly funding that quest by raising their rabble by creating skirmishes with various bogoeyman and backing candidate who will do their bidding.) Two issues stun me the most about the approach are:

First, that the candidates they choose or rarely evangelicals, they are typically fairly secularized conservatives who are typically glomming on to an agenda they have no desire to implement. Were that so they would be legislating at the federal level on abortion when Reagan was in the Oval. They certainly should have been doing it during this presidents term.

Secondly, that their quest for relevance centers on political power rather than spiritual power. Jesus taught there is strength in humility; that in weakness we are empowered. These folks are so busy protesting Harry Potter and bad TV that they do not have time or the inkling to simply and humbly pray, worship and enjoy the empowering presence of God. I suspect that is because if they took some time to listen rather than scream at the world they would have to change their tactics.

My Fundie friends are wrong on their tactics and are being duped into believing they can be effective with the approach. I take them on individually in my daily walk...but......

Here is what my progressive friends need to hear as well. The ONLY WAY to effectively confront these folks in terms they understand. I am not saying on their terms...but on "Terms they understand". To this unabashed evangelical it really is simply about Jesus. From my perspective I am not looking to convert a single Fundy to progressive politics; I am simply trying to get them focused on how un Christ-like and counterproductive social fundamentalism is to His Cause.

Some on DU have called progressive Christians out for not standing and railing against the Fundies as a collective countering force. There are two problems with that tact. First: There is no rallying point, there is not leader of progressive evangelicalism in the US. MLK is the closest we have ever gotten to anyone approaching that type of stature the could cross denominational divides. There are Christians who are progressives and even denominations that have a progressive slant, The problem with both is that they tend to promote progressive politics more than Jesus and they are rarely bastions of evangelical fervor.

Because of their lack of evangelical focus, they are typically ignored by the Fundamentalist movement. WHich seems sort of silly because the Fundies have pretty much ignored how their tactics have pushed far more souls away from the Church than they have attracted.

Look FUndies are a scary lot when viewed from the outside..their motivation are typically very genuine and heartfelt but their tactics and hypocrisy are what make people scream. I get that.

Progressives who find themselves among fundies in a religious setting can be very effective, but likewise we also value the community itself and what Christ commands. Progressive evangelicals believe in the power of prayer; we believe in being Christ-like in what we do; We believe in only doing what God instructs us to do. It is not our desire to stand in the middle of the sanctuary and call our friends on the right a "brood of vipers". If it comes to that I am perfectly willing to do so if He instructs me to do so. But you also have to understand that in a religious community friendships run very deep and the price for such actions would be pretty substantial.

So I am content to run my little counter insurgency and wear my bumper-stickers and buttons proudly and simply dare some on to question me about my politics.

I come to DU to find some solace and support as do other Christians whether evangelical or not. I don't feel persecuted here in the least I just wish some of you would be willing to give a little more slack, a little more respect and a little more understanding.

particular flavor of spirituality.

I may not agree with Christianity (although I think Jesus was pretty cool), but I certainly believe Christians have a right to practice their religion w/o fear of persecution.

It's when the extremeist side insists that I believe it, too, that I get off the boat. Unfortunately, evangelicals, by defintion, believe it is their duty to spead the gospel to the 'heathens'.

See, this is one of those beliefs that I have problems with. It assumes, for example, that there is one and only one correct response to the questions: what is 'god'.

And since the truth is that no one really knows that for sure (although some are closer than others), I really wish the extreme evangelicals would stop talking like they did know the answer, and further I wish they'd stop insisting that I believe it, too.


And you're right: evangelicals have largely forgotten about the Sermon on the Mount, one of histories most famous speeches, next to Buddha holding up the lotus flower to throngs of followers waiting to hear him speak.

My personal belief is that the messengers differ, but the message is the same.