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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:15 AM
Original message
Hitler & Christianity.
I keep seeing the Hitler question coming up. There is no question that Hitler was raised Catholic and that he USED Christianity just like Bush* is using (fundamentalist) Christianity now - for political purposes. I also think that Christianity lends itself - perhaps more than any other religion to - to a kind of meek following mentality that Christians need to be conscious of and wary about leaders who abuse it.

But I would not say that Hitler - when he was using Christianity (or Bush* now) was necessarily a Christian. If you have someone who sees a religion as a tool to manipulate people and that person is using religion for his own gain - then I think that that person is no longer (necessarily) a follower of religion - but a user of religion.

And I think that it's reasonable to believe that the person, Hitler, was NOT a "Christian" in the sense that he was NOT trying to follow the teachings of "Jesus". I think it is reasonable to surmise that Hitler was not concerned about others, he was not concerned about his relationship to any deities as he may have imagined them - if anything - it seems that Hitler was his own deity. And some say that Germany was his religion.

This does not let Christians off the hook, IMO. I think it's reasonable for Christians to expect more from themselves and each other than to identify themselves with people who use the idea of God to justify killing people - in any quantity - and esp. in the quantity that Hitler did. And I think it's inexcusable for whatever churches who went along with him - they should have apologized a long time ago if they haven't already.

Just like there is no excuse for churches who go along with Bush* and his immoral war. They should stop. (Of course some churches DO oppose the war - and they deserve credit for that.)


This writer has some good points - but she also seems so bent on seeing Hitler as a Christian - that even when she makes the point of comparing him to Strauss, etc. and their detached Machiavellian type views - she wants to think of Hitler as personally religious - when I don't think it's justified. I think she merely proved that he used religion to manipulate people.



From "God Is With Us": Hitler's Rhetoric and the Lure of "Moral Values"

by Maureen Farrell

...If photographic evidence of the Third Reich's Christian leanings were not enough, Hitler's own speeches and writings prove, at the very least, that he presented many of the same faith-based arguments heard in America today. Religion in the schools? Hitler was for it. Intellectuals who practiced "anti-Christian, smug individualism"? According to Hitler, their days were numbered. Divine Providence's role in shaping Germany's ultimate victory? Who could argue?... Writing for Free Inquiry, John Patrick Michael Murphy explained:

"Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church and blindly followed all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.

Hitler, like some of the today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." He liked corporeal punishment in home and school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. While abortion was illegal in pre-Hitler Germany, he took it to new depths of enforcement, requiring all doctors to report to the government the circumstances of all miscarriages. He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it."


...Leo Strauss, the philosopher who has influenced neoconservativism, and by proxy, George Bush's America, felt that religion, like deception, was crucial to maintaining social order. Meanwhile, neoconservative kingpin Irving Kristol has argued similar points -- bragging about how easy it is to fool the public into accepting the government's actions while arguing that America's Founding Fathers were wrong to insist on the separation of church and state. Why? According to Jim Lobe, it's because religion, as Strauss and his disciples see it, is "absolutely essential in order to impose moral law on the masses who otherwise would be out of control..."

http://www.buzzflash.com/farrell/04/12/far04041.html



So say you have someone who sees through religion and sees religion (esp. Christianity) as the perfect way to manipulate people - why would you think that that person still believed in the religion for himself? Does it really make sense that someone would see through a religion so clearly to use it as Hitler did then (and as Bush/Rove/etc. do now) - at the same time embrace that which they see as just a tool. I don't see it that way.

"But when force of circumstances made it necessary to appeal to the masses, Hitler advocated lies, myths, and illusions as necessary pabulum to placate the people and make them comply with the will of the Fuhrer." (Farrell quoting Professor Shadia B. Drury)

What did Hitler believe? Who knows. I'm not saying he was an atheist or a deist or any other thing. I just don't think that someone like Hitler necessarily believed anything - except maybe that might makes right - and eugenics - and we don't really know what else.

And while I think it's worthwhile for atheists to encourage people to question religion and esp. to question government leaders who use religion, I don't it's good to start demonizing people because they belong to a certain religious group (unless that particular group is responsible for encouraging atrocities) or the demonizers start to sound like the bad guys. IOW - that's exactly the kind of rhetoric that leads to problems.

And when you criticize the churches in WWII Germany - remember that there were "professing churches" that tried to organize resistance. They may have been no more effective than we are now - but I'm sure we don't want to be lumped together with the Republicans who actually do go along with this nonsense masquerading as a democracy.
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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. I appreciate what you have to say...
but your statement---
"I also think that Christianity lends itself - perhaps more than any other religion to - to a kind of meek following mentality that Christians need to be conscious of and wary about leaders who abuse it."
Not so sure I can agree with that one. I would imagine that any religion can lend itself just as easily to such problems given a certain degree of false teaching and misinterpretation/misrepresentation of the scriptures, etc. One could argue that the problem has more frequently or more severely happened with Christianity throughout history, but I don't think that reflects on the religion itself, but rather the degree to which people just don't get it. I think Islam would be equally at risk, based on my (admittedly limited) knowledge of the religion. Does that make sense? Not criticizing, just conversing.
:hi:
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Partly I think it depends on how it's presented.
It seems that there are some denominations where the "blessed are the meek", "turn the other cheek" sort of thing could be used by the higher ups to encourage people to not cause waves, to go along and get along, and that sort of thing. It also seems like the hierarchical structures of some denominations can encourage people to put their trust in leaders, to assume that leaders are good, and that mentality can be used by people who aren't good. (Some denominations - like Quakers, shun hierarchy and promote activism).

I don't know of other major religions - maybe Islam does it too - that encourages these things to the extent that Christianity does. I think it may be why Christianity is as prolific as it is. To some extent I think it's the same thing that encourages people to treat each other well - that can be used against them if they are not careful.

I think that most Christians are well-meaning. But it doesn't take very many NOT well-meaning people to take advantage - just like Scanlon talking about using the "right-wing wackos" in this country.

If people learned anything from WWII - it should be to always be ready to question the leaders - no matter who those leaders are (ie, the Pope).
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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I pretty much agree...
What is so unbelievably sad is that none of this is the way Christianity is supposed to function.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Religion has long been a tool of the tyrant
whether manipulating believers with it or decrying its presence. People will more readily sacrifice all for faith than they will for King and country, which makes it very tempting to meld church and state.

Viva Jefferson!
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Chosen by God, but not divine.
Here is a good paper that establishes the foundation that Christianity provided for the Holocaust. 1,000 years of antisemitism promoted by the church, and then accelerated by Martin Luther in Germany. Was Hitler a "real" Christian? One thing that we agree on is that he knew how to use Christianity to a maximum affect ("Gott Mit Uns").


The Great Scandal: Christianity's Role in the Rise of the Nazis
by Gregory S. Paul

.

Hitler was a Christian, but his Christ was no Jew. In his youth he dabbled with occult thinking but never became a devotee. As a young man he grew increasingly bohemian and stopped attending church. Initially no more anti-Semitic than the norm, in the years before the Great War he fell under the anti-Semitic influence of the Volkish Christian Social Party and other Aryan movements. After Germany’s stunning defeat and the ruinous terms of peace, Hitler became a full-blown Aryanist and anti-Semite. He grew obsessed with racial issues, which he unfailingly embedded in a religious context.

Apologists often suggest that Hitler did not hold a traditional belief in God because he believed that he was God. True, Hitler thought himself God’s chosen leader for the Aryan race. But he never claimed to be divine, and never presented himself in that manner to his followers. Members of the Wehrmacht swore this loyalty oath: “I swear by God this holy oath to the Führer of the German Reich and the German people, Adolf Hitler.” For Schutzstaffel (S.S.) members it was: “I pledge to you, Adolf Hitler, my obedience unto death, so help me God.”

Hitler repeatedly thanked God or Providence for his survival on the western front during the Great War, his safe escape from multiple assassination attempts, his seemingly miraculous rise from homelessness to influence and power, and his amazing international successes. He never tired of proclaiming that all of this was beyond the power of any mere mortal. Later in the war, Hitler portrayed German defeats as part of an epic test: God would reward his true chosen people with the final victory they deserved so long as they never gave up the struggle.

Reich iconography, too, reveals that Nazism never cut its ties to Christianity. The markings of Luftwaffe aircraft comprised just two swastikas—and six crosses. Likewise the Kreigsmarine (German Navy) flag combined the symbols. Hitler participated in public prayers and religious services at which the swastika and the cross were displayed together.

Hitler openly admired Martin Luther, whom he considered a brilliant reformer. Yet he said in several private conversations that he considered himself a Catholic. He said publicly on several occasions that Christ was his savior. As late as 1944, planning the last-ditch offensive the world would know as the Battle of the Bulge, he code-named it “Operation Christrose.”

Among his Nazi cronies Hitler criticized the established churches harshly and often. Some of these alleged statements must be treated with skepticism, but clearly he viewed the traditional Christian faiths as weak and contaminated by Judaism. Still, there is no warrant for the claim that he became anti-Christian or antireligious after coming to power. No reliably attributed quote reveals Hitler to be an atheist or in any way sympathetic to atheism. On the contrary, he often condemned atheism, as he did Christians who collaborated with such atheistic forces as Bolshevism. He consistently denied that the state could replace faith and instructed Speer to include churches in his beloved plans for a rebuilt Berlin. The Nazi-era constitution explicitly evoked God. Calculating that his victories over Europe and Bolshevism would make him so popular that people would be willing to abandon their traditional faiths, Hitler entertained plans to replace Protestantism and Catholicism with a reformed Christian church that would include all Aryans while removing foreign (Rome-based) influence. German Protestants had already rejected a more modest effort along these lines, as will be seen below. How Germans as a whole would have received this reform after a Nazi victory is open to question. In any case, Hitler saw himself as Christianity’s ultimate reformer, not its dedicated enemy.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=paul_23_4

If Christ was his savior, was he not a Christian?
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. It sounds to me like Nazism was it's own thing...
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 05:05 PM by bloom
And the (somewhat biased) clip you provided - supports the idea that Hitler knew how to USE religion for political gain and for whatever warped ideas he and the others leaders created themselves. NOT that they were practicing Christians.



So much for the Nazi leaders’ religious backgrounds. Assessing their religious views as adults is more difficult. On ancillary issues such as religion, Party doctrine was a deliberate tangle of contradictions. For Hitler consistency mattered less than having a statement at hand for any situation that might arise. History records many things that Hitler wrote or said about religion, but they too are sometimes contradictory. Many were crafted for a particular audience or moment and have limited value for illuminating Hitler’s true opinion; in any case, neither Hitler nor any other key Nazi leader was a trained theologian with carefully thought-out views.

Accuracy of transcription is another concern. Hitler’s public speeches were recorded reliably, but were often propagandistic. His private statements seem more likely to reflect his actual views, but their reliability varies widely. The passages Christian apologists cite most often to prove Hitler’s atheism are of questionable accuracy. Apologists often brandish them without noting historians’ reservations. Hitler’s personal library has been partly preserved, and a good deal is known about his reading habits, another possible window onto Hitler’s beliefs. Also important, and often ignored by apologists, are statements made by religious figures of the time, who generally—at least for public consumption—viewed Hitler as a Christian and a Catholic in good standing. Meanwhile, the silent testimony of photographs is irrefutable, much as apologists struggle to evade this damning visual evidence...

Hitler was a complex figure, but based on the available evidence we can conclude our inquiry into his personal religious convictions by describing him as an Aryan Volkist Christian who had deep Catholic roots, strongly influenced by Protestantism, touched by strands of neopaganism and Darwinism, and minimally influenced by the occult. Though Hitler pontificated about God and religion at great length, he considered politics more important than religion as the means to achieve his agenda.

None of the leaders immediately beneath Hitler was a pious traditional Christian....



I think the important thing for our country and it's future is that people recognize and reject pseudo-Christian leaders who are really about money, power, and war. Not that people all come to agree that Hitler was some normal example of a Christian and why don't people admit it or something.


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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Slightly biased perhaps
but overall, a fairly balanced paper. Regarding how pious the Nazi leadership was, it is important to note that Pope Pius XII (Hitler's Nazi) was pretty pious, as were many Protestant leaders. That did not keep him from legitimizing the Nazi government.




The Concordat between the Vatican and the Nazis

Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII) signs the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican at a formal ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933. Nazi Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen sits at the left, Pacelli in the middle, and the Rudolf Buttmann sits at the right.

The Concordat effectively legitimized Hitler and the Nazi government to the eyes of Catholicism, Christianity, and the world.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

The most important aspect I think we agree on is that Hitler knew how to use the church and Christianity to aid his Nazi cause. But, it is important to realize that Hitler could not have achieved the power that he did without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches.

Likewise, there is no mistaking that Christianity played a crucial part in establishing the foundations for the Holocaust, over a thousand year period, and then some. Hitler was simply the right person at the right time, or the wrong person at the wrong time, however you want to look at it.


Medieval Sourcebook:
Martin Luther (1483-1546):
The Jews and Their Lies, excerpts (1543)

At the beginning of his career it is often said that Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. He wrote, early in his career:

The Jews are blood-relations of our Lord; if it were proper to boast of flesh and blood, the Jews belong more to Christ than we. I beg, therefore, my dear Papist, if you become tired of abusing me as a heretic, that you begin to revile me as a Jew.

However, sometime before 1517, in his Letters to Spalatin, we can already see that Luther's hatred of Jews, best seen in tis 1543 letter, was not some affectation of old age, but was present very early on. Luther expected Jews to convert to his purified Christianity. When they did not, he turned violently against them.

It is impossible for modern people to read the horrible passages below and not to think of the burning of synagogues in November 1938 on Krystalnacht. Nor would one wish to excuse Luther for this text.

A number of points must, however, be made. The most important concerns the language used. Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career: he was not a man to say "manure" when he meant "shit". We do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century. Second, although Luther's comments seem to be proto-Nazi, they are better seen as part of tradition of Medieval Christian anti-semitism. While there is little doubt that Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism, modern anti-Semitism does differ in being based on pseud-scientific notions of race. The Nazis imprisoned and killed Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed them.

None of this justifies what follows, but it may help to comprehend what is being written here.

The full text of this text is also available http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/1543-Luther-JewsandLies-full.html

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/luther-jews.html
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
32. With respect to the Concordat, certain cultural and historical points ..
.. are worth remembering:

(1) The Catholic Church in Germany was becoming increasingly vocal in its warnings about the Nazis;
(2) The Nazis were closing the Catholic schools and otherwise interfering with Catholic education;
(3) The Vatican, which has sometimes been known for a certain lack of humility in its regard for its own discernment ability, apparently negotiated the Concordat, without obtaining much input from its German bishops and priests, and thought of the agreement as a compromise involving a nonpolitical commitment from the Church in return for noninterference in Church matters and Church education by the Nazis;
(4) The Vatican was not alone, among the organizations and states at the time, in crafting such a "compromise" with the Nazi state, apparently taking the Nazis at their word and believing that the agreement was actually accomplishing something: Chamberlain and Stalin, for example, come immediately to mind, as other examples.

It is therefore ahistorical at best, or intellectually dishonest if one actually knows the history, to regard the Concordat as evidence of some deeper affinity between the Catholic Church and the Nazis. Perhaps blinded by pride, the Vatican seems to have made a mistake, and in hindsight, it looks a huge mistake, but of course we easily sneer seventy some years later, with no real idea of what the participants saw and knew and thought at the time.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. How would you defend
the Catholic church's role and later the Protestant antisemitism of Martin Luther that laid the groundwork for the Holocaust? One can't look at the Holocaust without looking at the history leading up to it, which goes all the way back to Biblical times. Racial antisemitism was an outgrowth of religious antisemitism perpetuated by Christianity.

From same site:

Catholic Bishops giving the Nazi salute in honor of Hitler

Priests giving the Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukölln stadium in August 1933.
(Source: A Moral Reckoning: The Role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust and Its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679747044/freethinkers


On the Jews and Their Lies (1543)
By

Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)

Part XI

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly - and I myself was unaware of it - will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.


It's hard to read some of these excerpts without thinking of the Holocaust, which happened 400 years later.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. And let's not forget the 'ratlines' the Vatican assisted with...
...to get Nazis out of the country and into USG hands to become part of our intelligence apparatus AFTER the war.

"It is therefore ahistorical at best, or intellectually dishonest if one actually knows the history" to suggest that the Vatican was only sympathetic with Nazis BEFORE the war.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. If committed to the historical approach, you should be specific ..
.. rather than indulging in sweeping generalizations.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
63. Not sure how pointing out the fact that the Vatican helped Nazis escape...
...after the war equates to "indulging in sweeping generalizations", since it's a pretty specific point.

:shrug:

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Reiterating a general claim does not render it specific.
Claims, lacking enough specificity to determine what would constitute refutation if a refutation were possible, are simply vacuous. No useful insights result from such claims.

Your claim is ahistorical since, with respect to the concrete issues of specificity ("Who? What? Where? When?") you merely provide the vague "the Vatican" and "Nazis" as "who," the vague "helped escape" as "what," and the vague "after the war" as "when."
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. OH! The problem is that you don't know the history. I follow you now.
This will get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_line

Go from there, and you will see it's not an 'ahistorical' claim by a long shot.


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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Inadequate. Your link cites two (2) priests as involved and adds that ..
.. higher Church sanction for whatever they did is not established.

If you meant "these two priests did such-and-such," you might be making a specific historical claim.

Instead, you made a vague and general claim and provided as evidence a link explicitly fails to endorse the vague and general claim.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. I see. Well, as I'm at work, it's hard to get into lengthy scholarship.
Edited on Sat Jun-10-06 05:02 PM by Zhade
I do know I've seen evidence that the Vatican knew about these ratlines, and stand by it, but won't insist that you accept my informed view as your own.

There is a wealth of information out there, however, should you choose to form your own.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. Defend? My theology concerns rather less-than-perfect humans.
I.

A couple of 1933 photos of priests giving the stiff-arm salute shows, in fact, that in 1933 some priests gave the stiff-arm salute. Somewhat more, of course, is likely to be true: there were Nazi supporters scattered across German society, since some of that support lasted to the bitter end, it is quite reasonable to expect that there were some staunchly pro-Nazi priests, as well. But that sort of argument is a weak substitute for factual inquiry. What would be productive here, as inquiry, would be to unravel as far as possible the actual history: the Nazis came to power by telling all manner of small groups that the Nazis agreed with them, selecting out well-regarded individuals as spokesmen and sending them as speakers to other small groups to encourage people to support the Nazis; thus, as the Weimar Republic slowly imploded, there were all manner of people with mutually inconsistent ideas running around, portraying their views as the Nazi views, all these useful idiots being encouraged in their activities by various Nazi party representatives. While I am naturally inclined to sneer at them, I wasn't there, and I have no idea what they thought they were doing in 1933.

The thinking that led to the Reichskonkordat, on the other hand, seems to have been simply:

"With the concordat we are hanged, without the concordat we are hanged, drawn and quartered." http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1438


II.

Luther's anti-semitism is, of course, revolting and has been thoroughly disowned by Lutheran churches. Nor was anti-semitism Luther's only flaw: his support for the German princes against the peasants in Thomas Munser's rebellion comes to mind, for example. If, however, you wish to trace a thread between Luther's remarks some centuries earlier, and the holocaust, then perhaps intellectual integrity would require you to explain carefully why solidly Lutheran Denmark actively resisted the extermination policy. And there was, in fact, an anti-Nazi Lutheran grouping active throughout the period in Germany as well, Dietrich Bonhoeffer being only the most famous example.

You are certainly welcome to argue, that the vicious polemics Luther produced towards the end of his life, were actually used by the Nazis to consolidate political support for their anti-semitic activities, and if you wish to argue thusly, historical evidence would be more interesting than bald assertion: perhaps you will have no difficulty finding such evidence. But to my view, it would be more productive to ask what concrete political advantages the Nazis obtained from their anti-semitic agenda, which involved scapegoating, terror, and divide-and-conquer techniques.


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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
71. Christian antisemitism laid the foundation for the Holocaust.
There were many factors involved, but the underlying and most important reason was the role that Christianity played in demonizing the Jews since ancient times. Previous genocides include the Crusades and the Inquisition as well as blaming Jews for the Black Death and accusing them of Blood Libel. During the Inquisition, 200,000 Jews were expelled from Spain. Regarding Martin Luther, he was German, so no doubt had a much more profound effect on that country, not to imply that there weren't other key differences between Danish and German cultures.

So, it's necessary to look at the entire history of religious antisemitism, before it can be understood how it became racial antisemitism, ultimately leading to the Holocaust. The Holocaust would not have happened if it were not for the 1,500 years of antisemitism promoted by the Christian churches. It might be more difficult to argue that the Holocaust wouldn't have happened if Hitler didn't exist. Just looking at the numbers of past genocides against Jews before the Industrial era, should be enough to convince one that the efficiency of scale in the modern era could lead to a genocide of massive scale.

Regarding the Concordat, a few paragraphs from the above link (secular humanism).


The Concordat’s disastrous consequences cannot be exaggerated. It bound all devout German Catholics to the state—the clergy through an oath and income, the laity through the authority of the church. If at any time the regime chose not to honor the agreement, Catholics had no open legal right to oppose it or its policies. Opponents of Nazism, Catholic and non-Catholic, were further discouraged and marginalized because the church had shown such want of moral fiber and consistency.

Apologists have insisted that the church had no choice but to accept the Concordat for the modest protections it provided. But those provisions were never needed. Major Protestant denominations suffered no more than Catholicism, though the Protestant churches lacked protective agreements and had snubbed Hitler’s early attempt to unite them. Apologists make much of Vatican “resistance” to Nazism, but the net effect of Vatican policy toward Hitler was collaborative.

Indeed, the 1933 Concordat stands as one of the most unethical, corrupt, duplicitous, and dangerous agreements ever forged between two authoritarian powers. Perhaps the Catholic strategy was to outlast the Nazi’s frankly popular tyranny rather than try to bring it down. But the Catholic Church made no attempt to revoke the Concordat and its loyalty clause during the Nazi regime. Indeed, the 1933 Concordat is the only diplomatic accord negotiated with the Nazi regime that remains in force anywhere in the world.

Germany’s Protestant sects were too decentralized to be coopted by a single document. To this extent Protestants who disputed Nazi policies could be said to enjoy a more favorable position than Catholics. But opposition was rare among Protestants too. Hitler cynically courted the major denominations even as they cynically courted him. Most smaller traditional Christian sects did little better. For example, Germany’s Mormons and Seventh-Day Adventists bent over backwards to accommodate National Socialism.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=paul_23_4
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. This is a mish-mash of claims, again exhibiting an ahistorical attitud
I. "Martin Luther .. was German .. so .. had a .. more profound effect on that country" is indefensible. The underlying assumption, that an individual, hundreds of years after his death, will have more influence where he was born, than elsewhere in the world, has no basis in fact. You want to moderate this by admitting "other key differences between Danish and German cultures" -- but these "key differences" are, in fact, exactly the real issue. Absent a historical examination of such issues, we obtain no real insights.

II. There has certainly been an episodic history of "Christian" anti-semitic violence, often accompanied by specific references to certain New Testament passages. These passages were written in a specific historical context, by individuals with specific aims, and however one ultimately regards those passages, they cannot be understood without making some effort to understand the authors in their times. It is certainly true that throughout history these passages have produced some grotesque psychological contortions from various readers, including the Biblical literalists who seem to want an coherent and "inerrant" scheme. These contortions are quite apparent in the suppressed encyclical "Humani Generis Unitas," which condemns racism and anti-semitism but which was never released; the document, in fact, after denouncing anti-semitism launches into a long discussion of the Church's theological position regarding Judaism, which would have been read in Nazi Germany as a justification of Nazi attitudes ("O, they say we go too far but are basically correct"). Objectively, this signifies that the Catholic Chuch recognized a genuine problem in Germany, but was unable, as an institution, to understand the problem well enough and overcome its own ideological blinders sufficiently to craft a useful response in encyclical form. And it is actually not clear that an encyclical response could have been adequate.

III. Let us now turn to the "Secular Humanist" quote. There was a time -- it was not that many decades ago, and I am a product of those times -- when "secularism" was propounded as a Christian obligation by a number of respectable mainstream Christian theologians, as a result of which many of us have happily called ourselves "secular humanists" and "Christians" simultaneously, without any embarrassment. But of course that was also an era when some Christians took "God is dead" seriously as theology, and the atheist Bloch (who said "Only an atheist can be a good Christian") was the object of some study. So the label "secular humanist" is not an anathema to me, although the Fundamentalists have tried to demonize the term.

Nevertheless, the quote you provide is nothing more than a rant. The Catholic Church in 1937 issued Mit Brennder Sorge, the encyclical title being German because it was directed at the Germans:

"..We were prompted by the desire .. to secure for Germany the freedom of the Church's beneficent mission and the salvation of the souls in her care, as well as by the sincere wish to render the German people a service essential for its peaceful development and prosperity. Hence, despite many and grave misgivings, We then decided not to withhold Our consent for We wished to spare the Faithful of Germany, as far as it was humanly possible, the trials and difficulties they would have had to face ... The experiences of these last years have fixed responsibilities and laid bare intrigues, which from the outset only aimed at a war of extermination ... In your country, Venerable Brethren, voices are swelling into a chorus urging people to leave the Church, and among the leaders there is more than one whose official position is intended to create the impression that this infidelity to Christ the King constitutes a signal and meritorious act of loyalty to the modern State ... Human laws in flagrant contradiction with the natural law are vitiated with a taint which no force, no power can mend. In the light of this principle one must judge the axiom, that "right is common utility," a proposition which may be given a correct significance, it means that what is morally indefensible, can never contribute to the good of the people. But ancient paganism acknowledged that the axiom, to be entirely true, must be reversed and be made to say: "Nothing can be useful, if it is not at the same time morally good" (Cicero, De Off. ii. 30). Emancipated from this oral rule, the principle would in international law carry a perpetual state of war between nations; for it ignores in national life, by confusion of right and utility, the basic fact that man as a person possesses rights he holds from God, and which any collectivity must protect against denial, suppression or neglect. To overlook this truth is to forget that the real common good ultimately takes its measure from man's nature, which balances personal rights and social obligations, and from the purpose of society, established for the benefit of human nature."

The point of the Encyclical is quite clear: the Church had attempted to honor the Concordat, the Nazis never intended to honor it, and the Church warns of a war of extermination and the denial of individual rights. It is jolly rhetoric, from a certain viewpoint, I suppose, to jabber that ".. the .. Concordat is the only diplomatic accord negotiated with the Nazi regime that remains in force .." but it's meaningless (because the Nazi state is gone) and misleading (because in 1937, the Church had clearly explained that the Concordat had been abrogated).

The remainder of the "Secular Humanist" quote is just noise.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. So you're denying that these things happened?
You're practicing the same kind of revisionism as a Holocaust denier now.

(Not the same content, of course. Just the style, which is largely comprised of denial.)

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Studying political violence as a specific historical phenomenon ..
.. can produce insights unavailable from rhetoric alone. If we do not insist on historical specificity, nothing remains but ahistorical generalizations and quasi-magical thinking.

Whether medieval pogrom, lynching in the American South, Nazi extermination, or "ethnic cleansing" in the former Yugoslavia, the typical claim of proponents of violence is that the violence is a spontaneous manifestation.

On inspection, such claims appear to function as mystifications: the violence has been carefully constructed and organized for the benefit of particular individuals and serves precise interests: it does not leap, for some magical reason, suddenly from the texts written hundreds of years earlier and stalk the land (although such old literary productions may be used by the organizers of the violence as part of their propaganda), any more than world peace has leapt fullborn from Isaiah's call to beat swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks.

With regard to "Christian" anti-semitism, I do not deny that vicious anti-semitism has sometimes paraded under a "Christian" banner or that murders by "Christian" mobs have occurred. But such phenomena should be studied concretely, and as specific cases: this is neither denial of nor excuse for specific cases but reflects, rather, a conviction that understanding and drawing appropriate lessons requires the best facts available. I would, of course, say the same of "Muslim" terrorism &c&c&c.

The Nazi extermination was carefully planned, and the political violence that consolidated the power of the Nazi party and later the Nazi state involved precise and deliberate choices by those who encouraged and propagandized the violence; if one wants to claim that the New Testament, or the writings of Luther, are somehow involved, this claim should be a scientific claim, that elucidates actual mechanisms, rather than requiring mystical forces. In the course of examining the actual history, one meets thugs, cowards, idiots, the misguided, the indifferent, the fearful, the unlucky, people with good hearts caught up in events beyond their control, people whose actions are comprehensible only if one knows what their objectives were, saints and martyrs ... particular individuals sometimes move from one category to another. It is completely unclear to me what is "revisionist" about encouraging such a historical approach to judgments about the Catholic Church of that era, or why you regard this as comparable to Holocaust denial ...
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. Here is a historical site
that covers much of antisemitism leading to the Holocaust. The fundamental point that you seem to either not agree with or choose to ignore is the role that Christianity played in the Holocaust, fundamentally the religious antisemitism that grew into racial antisemtitism. But also complicity by the church, especially the Catholic church. In addition and equally important, was the effective way that Hitler used Christianity and the churches to consolidate power.

The bold faced text is the key. But none of it is noise. It took a very long time to reach the conditions leading up to the Holocaust.


Medieval Sourcebook:
Martin Luther (1483-1546):
The Jews and Their Lies, excerpts (1543)

At the beginning of his career it is often said that Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. He wrote, early in his career:

The Jews are blood-relations of our Lord; if it were proper to boast of flesh and blood, the Jews belong more to Christ than we. I beg, therefore, my dear Papist, if you become tired of abusing me as a heretic, that you begin to revile me as a Jew.

However, sometime before 1517, in his Letters to Spalatin, we can already see that Luther's hatred of Jews, best seen in tis 1543 letter, was not some affectation of old age, but was present very early on. Luther expected Jews to convert to his purified Christianity. When they did not, he turned violently against them.

It is impossible for modern people to read the horrible passages below and not to think of the burning of synagogues in November 1938 on Krystalnacht. Nor would one wish to excuse Luther for this text.

A number of points must, however, be made. The most important concerns the language used. Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career: he was not a man to say "manure" when he meant "shit". We do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century. Second, although Luther's comments seem to be proto-Nazi, they are better seen as part of tradition of Medieval Christian anti-semitism. While there is little doubt that Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism, modern anti-Semitism does differ in being based on pseud-scientific notions of race. The Nazis imprisoned and killed Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed them.

http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/mod/modsbook44.html
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Do feel free to keep reposting that quote from Luther over and over.
I have already said, and will repeat, that there is really no excuse for that sort of vicious writing, and that this is not the only of Luther's errors, among which I have already mentioned his stand during the peasants' war.

Having said that, I nevertheless try again to encourage you to take a more scientific view of history and to search for the mechanisms that lead to particular events, by which I mean somewhat more than simply reposting the same Luther quote with the triumphant observation that it came from a website devoted to history.

Merely waving around an old quote of Luther's as explanation for the holocaust is, in fact, superstitious; Luther also wrote: "Therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. This commandment can be understood in a twofold sense. First, we are commanded to love both our neighbor and ourself. Again, the command can be understood in the sense that we love only our neighbor, and this alone for love's sake. I like this latter interpretation much better ..." But neither the words you quote, nor the words I quote, will ever fly off the page into the world without some active human agency. The historical nature of that agency -- the questions of who exactly did what when, and for what reasons -- cannot be understood by considering polemics alone: with every crime, one should ask "cui bono?"

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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. So am I to conclude
that you don't agree with this statement? Just trying to judge where your position is exactly. From the same Fordham University site:

"While there is little doubt that Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism"
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. Conclude I regard sweeping generalizations as ahistorical and ..
.. unscientific.

A scientific historical analysis would begin with a specific historical situation -- limited in time and location, with a potentially well-defined collection of human actors -- and would try to sort out exactly who did what when. Who killed who where and when, and how was it accomplished? How were the actors recruited or coerced into their roles? What were the individual psychological and educational and cultural histories? What forms of propaganda were deployed and how? Who next owns confiscated lands and properties? What are the associated political structures? Exactly WHY did the particular event assume the form it assumed. From this, one gets an idea of how the developing nightmare actually looked on the ground, what sort of characters played what sort of roles, what the actual opportunities for resistance were.

Frankly, I have no idea what an assertion like "Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism" could possibly mean in scientific terms: it provides no guidance whatsoever about potential warning signs, for example, that we might be alert for in our own time. I do not see any possible benefit in either believing the assertion or disbelieving it.

In the realm of propaganda, associated with the holocaust, one could probably find some citations of earlier anti-semitic "Christian" texts, as well as eugenic "theories" that can be traced to authors happy to cite to Darwin. On this basis, would you argue that "the theory of evolution laid the basis for modern anti-Semitism," as a number of rightwing crackpots do? Marx, in thinking about the claims of the individual versus those of the state, wrote a much-misrepresented piece considering "the Jewish question" which was certainly cited in Marxist circles in Weimar Germany, and which Stalinists later found convenient to use as justification for acting against certain dissenters in the USSR; on this basis, would you argue that "communism laid the basis for modern anti-Semitism," again as a number of rightwing crackpots do? Similarly, one can probably find some anti-semitic writings from the period of the Moorish occupation in Spain -- are these the intellectual origin of the later expulsions there in your view?

The object of historical inquiry should be to provide ideas that enable us to discern more clearly the material currents of our own time. There is nothing whatsoever wrong in considering long established cultural factors (such as "Christian anti-semitism") as part of the mix when trying to understand a specific historical phenomenon. But vague and sweeping generalizations shed no practical light whatsoever on events.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. What a hypocrite.
The object of historical inquiry should be to provide ideas that enable us to discern more clearly the material currents of our own time.


Care to point out the "ideas that enable us to discern more clearly" provided by the historian you quoted in this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=75767&mesg_id=75875



But vague and sweeping generalizations shed no practical light whatsoever on events.


You don't say. :eyes:

Yeah, yeah, I know the drill.

I'll wait for you to swift-boat my comments into evidence that I'm a fan of Hal Lindsey and/or that I hate catholics again.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. More on Christian and modern antisemitism.
"Frankly, I have no idea what an assertion like "Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism" could possibly mean in scientific terms: it provides no guidance whatsoever about potential warning signs, for example, that we might be alert for in our own time. I do not see any possible benefit in either believing the assertion or disbelieving it."

Lessons to be learned in modern times include the breaking down of barriers that divide cultures. Bigotry promoted by religion has been the source of much violence in the world. Look at the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. When it is written into creeds that other sects are not to be tolerated as it is in the Bible and the Koran, this perpetuates the demonization of certain groups, such as the Jews, or the Hindus, or the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland. New generations learn to hate the same groups that their parents do, and that their ancestors did, and so on, back to ancient times. That provides a "social and cultural basis" for continuing the bigotry. Where religious bigotry goes from there can be dependent on may things, but in the case of the Jews, after the Enlightenment, there was a decline in religious antisemitism, but a transition to modern antisemitism.

To be fair, antisemitism wasn't just Christian as the Romans played a part too, but they did not try to eradicate the Jews or Judaism like the Christians. Likewise, the Muslims have had their own history of antisemitism. Also, the Jews weren't the only victims of the Catholic church, other Christian sects like the Cathars were eradicated during the Inquisition. But in Europe, it was Christian antisemitism that laid the social and cultural background for modern antisemitism.

Here is an interesting essay on Antisemitism, especially this section describing the transition from purely religious antisemtism to racial antisemitism.


An important change in Christian antisemitism occurred after Spain expelled all Jews in 1492. At the time, Jews who converted to Christianity were allowed to remain and many took advantage of the opportunity. Laws which once restricted their movement and ability to engage in commerce were lifted and they eagarly pursued their new opportunities, with many entering some of the highest reaches of Spanish society.

Of course, this produced no small measure of resentment and envy among other Spanish Christians and in order to restore the status quo, the government passed laws restricting the actions of these converts - laws which defined people based upon whether or not they had "pure blood." Thus, for the first time, Jews were defined not by their religion but rather as a biological group whose "blood" rendered them impure and inelligible for the same rights and privileges as other members of society. These concepts would later become key ingredients in the racial and biological antisemitism of modern Europe, culminating in the Holocaust at the hands of Nazis in Germany.


Austin Cline goes on to describe the transition to modern antisemitism.


Modern Antisemitism

Traditional antisemitism began to disappear only with the advent of the Enlightenment. Secular ideas about the nature of political authority and social relationships allowed for people of any religion to play an equal role. On September 28, 1791, the French National Assembly which came out of the French Revolution declared that all Jews would have full and equal citizenship. Wherever Napoleon's armies went, local authorities were either urged or forced to follow the French example.

Because of this, Jews were often among those who worked hardest for the promotion of Enlightenment and the secularization of society. Predictably, then, Jews also became the favorite target of those who were opposed to the growing secularization and liberalizing of society. However, the Enlightenment had already had a profound impact upon them as well, and the traditional charges against the Jews did not work as well as they once did. So, in addition to those new, "scientific" complaints were added - they included the allegation that Jews were working to take over the world and that the Jews, as a race, are biologically inferior to Europeans.

http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/judaism/bldef_antisemitism.htm

Probably not the scientific paper you were looking for to show the "social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism", but still a good essay.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. Here, I think, is the point on which we differ:

You think that behaviors spring from beliefs. While I can accept that it is possible, sometimes, that behaviors might spring from beliefs, in general I think the opposite is true: beliefs are adopted to justify behaviors.

Hence, you are concerned to exhibit examples of self-identified "Christians" engaged in anti-semitic behavior, because you think that exhibiting these examples immediately indicates a remedy, namely, an ideological struggle to discredit certain forms of belief. While I do not completely discount such ideological struggles, in general I do not believe that ideological counter-attack can function as the primary remedy; in particular, I regard ideological matters as entirely secondary to political responses. Thus, confronted, in a particular case, with political violence and its supporting ideology, I am inclined to examine first who benefits by encouraging and organizing the violence, and the associated concrete mechanisms involved in mobilizing groups to terrorize victims; the self-justifications and propaganda are interesting but secondary features.

Nixon, a dishonest and contemptible politician, once said: "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow." This is clear statement about how views develop if people are not self-critical, and it resembles a number of important insights in the social sciences. Freud, for example, seems to have recognized that instincts and personal histories grab people "by the balls" in this sense, so that hearts and minds are often determined by unconscious personal forces; Nietzsche, that the desire to fit in with the crowd similarly grabs people; Marx, that economic issues likewise grab people. Nixon's point, of course, was roughly this: victims of extortion and blackmail may whole-heartedly sing songs that thugs tell them to sing. There are definite processes by which people are co-opted into hateful political behaviors, and it is important to understand these processes to be able to disrupt them at early stages: ideology can only plays a small role in this, compared to political organizing.

Only a small number of people are strongly motivated by beliefs, and they are typically regarded as crackpots. The Jehovah's Witnesses (a Biblical literalist sect with which I usually disagree) fell afoul of the Nazis immediately, because the Witnesses refused to support racism, join the army, or swear allegiance to the state: as a result, arrests and murders had begun by 1933; in absolute terms, the sect in Germany was small, so persecution of it could serve Nazi objectives of "instructive terror", without creating the political opposition that would have resulted from an attack against a more mainstream sect.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #93
101. What if religion never existed?
would antisemitism have reached the levels that it did?

"You think that behaviors spring from beliefs. While I can accept that it is possible, sometimes, that behaviors might spring from beliefs, in general I think the opposite is true: beliefs are adopted to justify behaviors."

I think it is a two way street, that beliefs spring form behaviors and vice versa. Perhaps it is more accurate, as Freud said, that beliefs spring from our desires, which is a bit different from behaviors. Our desires for a protector or father/mother figure led to the invention of God or gods. It's difficult to decouple what is cause from effect, so I think to address the above, would medieval and modern antisemitism have reached the levels that it did, if religion had never existed? Was there some inherent quality in the Jewish race that made them out to be demons to be persecuted for 2,000 years? If the answer is yes, then you are right, but I suspect the answer is no, that there was not some inherent cultural or racial quality that led to their persecution.

If I am right, then we can add religion back in and ask what is it about religion that led to the persecution of Jews? Keep in mind that the Cathars in France were eradicated as well, so I don't think there were racial motivations at all, rather they opposed the Catholic church. In each case, the Jews and Cathars represented opposition or defiance of the Catholic Church, they would not convert to the accepted form of Christianity, so were persecuted by the Church. Fundamentally, it is the power of the Church that is threatened, which forms the basis for religious antisemitism or anticatharism. It is organized religion that is the culprit primarily. From there, the bigotry is spread to the populace through the introduction of creeds and laws that establish the moral and ethical basis for persecution of the Jews or Cathars. So, crimes such as the blood libel, heresy or apostasy, in addition to making them responsible for killing Christ, are invented as a way of persecution. From there, things fall into place pretty well historically. The long history of persecution of Jews, by the Christians and Muslims and condemning them for their beliefs established a social and cultural basis for modermn antisemitism. As religious crimes became less convincing after the Enlightenment, racial and political reasons were invented. Things have run their course, but in the ME, religious antisemitism is still ongoing, as is antihinduism, etc., since medieval religion is still practiced there.

I think that medieval and modern antisemitism would not have reached the levels that it did, if religion had never existed. That organized religion and it's quest for power has been the primary culprit. The Romans after all did not try to eradicate the Jews as the Catholic Church did. The Inquisition in Spain seems to mark a transition point, where religious antisemitism began it's change to modern antisemitism. It was not enough to make 200,000 Jews leave Spain, while having the rest convert to Christianity. Laws had to be passed regarding purity of blood lines to prevent the acquisition of wealth by Jews, thus setting a precedent for racial antisemitism. By that time, the "social and cultural basis" for modern antisemitism had already begun.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. "What if my grandmother had certain sexual attributes?" Mr. Putin snapped,
the wire service reported. "Then she would be my grandfather."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/06/world/europe/06cnd-russia.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. Without religion, there would be no Jews
and no Jewish culture, therefore no anti-Semitism. There is no such thing as a "Jewish race."
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #104
111. There would still be Jews.
There would still be Jews, but there wouldn't be Judaism. The Jews could still be a unique social and cultural group without religion (in theory). My point is that they would not have been persecuted throughout history the way they have been, if it were not for the religious persecution, mostly by the Catholic Church. Since the topic is Hitler, I thought this "First Holocaust" might be relevant, resulting from the First Crusade ordered by Pope Urban II. With religious persecution for over a thousand years, the social and cultural basis for modern antisemitism was established.


The German Crusade
Main article: German Crusade, 1096

The First Crusade ignited a long tradition of organized violence against Jews in European culture. While anti-Semitism had existed in Europe for centuries, the First Crusade marks the first mass organized violence against Jewish communities. Setting off in the early summer of 1096, a German army of around 10,000 soldiers led by Gottschalk, Volkmar, and Emicho, proceeded northward through the Rhine valley, in the opposite direction of Jerusalem, began a series of pogroms which some historians call "the first Holocaust" (1986, Jonathan Riley-Smith "The First Crusade and the Idea of Crusading", pg. 50).

The preaching of the crusade inspired further anti-Semitism. According to some preachers, Jews and Muslims were enemies of Christ, and enemies were to be fought or converted to Christianity. The general public apparently assumed that "fought" meant "fought to the death", or "killed". The Christian conquest of Jerusalem and the establishment of a Christian emperor there would supposedly instigate the End Times, during which the Jews were supposed to convert to Christianity. In parts of France and Germany, Jews were thought to be responsible for the crucifixion, and they were more immediately visible than the far-away Muslims. Many people wondered why they should travel thousands of miles to fight non-believers when there were already non-believers closer to home.

The crusaders moved north through the Rhine valley into well-known Jewish communities such as Cologne, and then southward. Jewish communities were given the option of converting to Christianity or be slaughtered. Most would not convert and as news of the mass killings spread many Jewish communities committed mass suicides in horrific scenes. Thousands of Jews were massacred, despite some attempts by local clergy and secular authorities to shelter them. The massacres were justified by the claim that Urban's speech at Clermont promised reward from God for killing non-Christians of any sort, not just Muslims. Although the papacy abhorred and preached against the purging of Muslim and Jewish inhabitants during this and future crusades, there were numerous attacks on Jews following every crusade movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade#The_German_Crusade
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #111
113. So you do not regard the Egyptian captivity, the Babylonian captivity, ..
.. or the Roman destruction of the Jewish state and the dispersion as examples of persecution?
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. The U.S. had a policy of enslavement.
Slavery was somewhat common in ancient times. The ancient empires of the Romans, Egyptians, and Babylonians had many slaves captured during conquest. But I don't think there were eradications such as occurred during Christian persecution. Also, to what extent did religion play a part in the enslavements by the Egyptians or Babylonians? I think the Roman conflicts were political in nature.

What do you think about the German Crusade of 1096? Does that look like a precedent for the Holocaust 850 years later? What about the Crusades in general? The Inquisition? Would the eradication or expulsion of Jews have taken place during these times if there were not religious motivations? What was different about Jews that made them victims of persecution? From the Crusades through to the Inquisition there were persecutions and expulsions throughout Europe.


Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group, which can range from individual hatred to institutionalized, violent persecution. The highly explicit ideology of Adolf Hitler's Nazism was the most extreme example of this phenomenon, leading to a genocide of the European Jewry. Anti-Semitism takes different forms:

Religious anti-Semitism, or anti-Judaism. Before the 19th century, most anti-Semitism was primarily religious in nature, based on Christian or Islamic interactions with and interpretations of Judaism. Since Judaism was generally the largest minority religion in Christian Europe and much of the Islamic world, Jews were often the primary targets of religiously-motivated violence and persecution from Christian and, to a lesser degree, Islamic rulers. Unlike anti-Semitism in general, this form of prejudice is directed at the religion itself, and so generally does not affect those of Jewish ancestry who have converted to another religion, although the case of Conversos in Spain was a notable exception. Laws banning Jewish religious practices may be rooted in religious anti-Semitism, as were the expulsions of Jews that happened throughout the Middle Ages.

Racial anti-Semitism. With its origins in the early and popularly misunderstood evolutionary ideas of race that started during the Enlightenment, racial anti-Semitism became the dominant form of anti-Semitism from the late 19th century through today. Racial anti-Semitism replaced the hatred of Judaism as a religion with the idea that the Jews themselves were a racially distinct group, regardless of their religious practice, and that they were inferior or worthy of animosity. With the rise of racial anti-Semitism, conspiracy theories about Jewish plots in which Jews were somehow acting in concert to dominate the world became a popular form of anti-Semitic expression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #115
121. Another sloppy mish-mash: you wander glibly over slavery, mention the ..
.. crusades and the Inquisition &c&c.

Your questions appear to be rhetorical, and the post seems to be organized entirely along emotional lines. "What do you think about the German Crusade of 1096?" (for example) seems not to function, not as a genuine question, but as innuendo.

But what I think is this: if you are really interested in avoiding the sort of mob violence that occurred during the German crusade, and in particular understanding the social mechanisms behind the violence, then you should examine those events in their historical particularity, and should ask specific who-what-when-where questions, drawing out the social relationships as clearly as possible. How and where was this ragtag army set in motion? Who left and why? Of those who stayed home, who benefited from the leaving and what role did they play in encouraging the crusade? How was the migrant mob received as it passed through places and how was it fed? Where and when did violence break out? Who was attacked? Who, if anyone, defended the attacked? Who survived and how? What happened to the goods and real property of the murdered?

Without such a specific inquiry, it is impossible to produce anything other than a cartoon stereotype of events. And cartoon stereotypes reveal neither the social mechanisms we need to understand, nor the warning signs we need to recognize, to prevent such events.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #111
116. Jews "in theory"?
There would still be Jews, but there wouldn't be Judaism. The Jews could still be a unique social and cultural group without religion (in theory).

Okay. So without Judaism and the culture that developed from the observance of religious practices, just exactly how would you distinguish the West Semitic pastoralists, farmers, artisans and merchants who lived in Palestine from the West Semitic pastoralists, farmers, artisans and merchants who lived in Syria, the Transjordan and south to the Sinai? There might be people occupying a particular piece of ground, but how would that make them Jews when no one else who had occupied that particular piece of ground was a Jew? :shrug:
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. Think hypothetically.
Suppose the Torah was a secular document that contained only the morals and ethics for the Jewish culture (everyone is an atheist in this scenario). There is still room for variations within that culture. So, my question is would the Jews have been singled out and persecuted throughout history, even when they had settled into Europe? Would there be anything that could rival the persecution during the Crusades and the Inquisition? The German Crusade? Or was it simply that the Jews were not Christian, that they were the largest minority religion in Europe that caused the problem? More importantly, it was the organized effort by the Catholic Church to demonize them by making them Christ killers, committing the blood libel and other crimes. After the Enlightment these crimes were replaced with political crimes, when religious crimes fell out of fashion. But the damage had already been done by then.

I'm not trying to say that religious persecution was the only factor in the Holocaust, just that it was an important one. But also, I'm saying that I don't think it would have happened without the thousand years plus of religious antisemitism that established the social and cultural basis for racial antisemitism to take over.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Okay, so the Jews would be a people who had a book not too different
from Aristotle's Nichomichean Ethics or Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Has anyone ever been persecuted over those books? I think not. Neither has any entire people ever shaped their lives around them.

But that doesn't get to the problem. The Jews were dispersed for the last time by the Romans as punishment for the revolt of 70 C. E. Would that revolt have happened without religious motivation, or continued to its disastrous end? Probably not. The Jews of the Diaspora kept their identity by maintaining their religious customs; oce they were no longer a territorial nation, they became a cultural and religious one. Given that they were always a minority in Europe, they became "the Other," and it was that "otherness in general," as much as religious difference in particular, that left them vulnerable to persecution.

What's interesting is that if you look at the specific set of lies that were spread in order to demonize Jews (and Cathars and Templars and the occasional Pope/Reformation theologian) in the Middle Ages, you'll find that they're exactly the same lies used to demonize non-religious minority populations today. They "recruit"/kidnap/molest children. They're poisoners, and/or they spread disease. Their sexual customs are perverted. What the men really want is a Christian/white woman. Etc., etc.. Religion was the "justification" for attacking Jews. But race or sexual orientation would have done just as well, had there been any such identifying characteristic.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. The hypothetical case has no religion.
That's the point, that religion divides and causes conflicts. I also agree that the religion kept them together, but in this hypothetical culture, we can assume that they only required morals and ethics, that somehow they bypassed the need for religion. What would be the source of conflict in this case that could lead to such a disastrous result throughout history? Let's say that their moral and ethical code had the effect of keeping their culture together and distinct from much of European culture. Would that have led to the same levels of persecution, or would they have been accepted as being different culturally?

Given that they were always a minority in Europe, they became "the Other," and it was that "otherness in general," as much as religious difference in particular, that left them vulnerable to persecution.

Which was the greater effect, their religion not being Christianity or that they did not fully integrate into the customs of the countries that they settled in? There is a record of religious persecution, long before any racial persecution, so you would have to support your assumption with a few cases. Religious persecution had many cases over a thousand year period. Also, the persecution was coming from the Catholic Church, right? Pope Urban II ordered the First Crusade that led to the German Crusade against Jewry right in Germany no less. A precedent for the Holocaust in 1096. That wasn't a racial decision by the Pope, it was religious. It wasn't until much later that racial antisemitism developed.

Organized religion was really the culprit. While religion tends to cause conflicts, the Catholic Church went far beyond that in it's efforts to persecute the Jews. Such a long history, which ultimately led to the transition from religious to racial antisemitism.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. Yes, I see your point.
My point is that without religion, there would be nothing to distinguish "Jews" from the neighboring peoples. Books of ethics are pretty much confined to the wealthy, educated elite of any population. They might make the basis of a Saturday afternoon gentlemen's club, but you couldn't build a culture around something the illiterate farmer out in the boonies and the equally illiterate goatherd out in the desert had no access to. No "Jews," no persecution of Jews. Simple.

Now if you're arguing that this moral code somehow could make a people distinct, and essentially separate them from the people among whom they live, of course they would be liable to persecution. Baptist whites happily lynched Baptist blacks. It's not religion per se--it's that the object of persecution is different. Watch junior high kids sometime; it'll be instructive.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. What you describe is racial prejudice
but that was not displayed towards the Jews until after the Enlightenment, with the exception of 1492 in Spain, where their property ownership was denied based on their Jewish bloodlines.

The hypothetical case allows for a separate Jewish culture to be distinct and to support the same existence in Europe, but without religion. So, under these circumstance, would the same level of persecution have developed? If yes, what would have been the basis for the persecution, knowing that racial antisemitism was not "invented" until the 18th century.

Allowing religion back into the mix and examining the history of persecution, there were no examples that I'm aware of that involved a racial persecution, only religious persecution. When a group is demonized for 1,500 years based on religious persecution, it sets the course for racial bigotry.

What do you think of the "First Holocaust" in Germany 1096? Would that have happened or anything like it without religion, without the persecution by the Catholic Church?
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. What I describe is cultural prejudice.
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 08:43 PM by okasha
The hypothetical case allows for a separate Jewish culture to be distinct and to support the same existence in Europe, but without religion. So, under these circumstance, would the same level of persecution have developed? If yes, what would have been the basis for the persecution, knowing that racial antisemitism was not "invented" until the 18th century.

Thank you for illustrating my point. The Jews in Europe were first persecuted over religious differences. When religious prejudice was no longer politically correct, the prejudice remained but shifted its focus to "race." Religion and race were rationalizations for prejudice against a people who were outsiders, different. It was the difference itself that mattered, not the nature of the difference.

What do you think of the "First Holocaust" in Germany 1096?

I think it's consistent with a great deal of other bad behavior by Crusaders. The Crusaders also massacred fellow Christians who were culturally different, as well as Jews. They killed Circassian Christians in Turkey, Nestorians in Syria and went on a rampage in Constantinople in 1204 that caused the Pope to excommunicate an entire Crusade.

Would that have happened or anything like it without religion, without the persecution by the Catholic Church?

Why not? You've pointed out yourself that when the religious excuse for persecuting an alien people went by the wayside, the majority population found another reason to continue their prejudices.

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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #124
125. The racial antisemitism didn't exist until the 18th century.
Thank you for illustrating my point. The Jews in Europe were first persecuted over religious differences. When religious prejudice was no longer politically correct, the prejudice remained but shifted its focus to "race." Religion and race were rationalizations for prejudice against a people who were outsiders, different. It was the difference itself that mattered, not the nature of the difference.

There was a thousand year history of religious antisemitism, but not of racial antisemitism. Your assumpition that racial antisemtism would have existed if religious antisemtism has no basis or evidence to support it.

Think from a psychological perspective for a moment. If you have always been taught to hate someone or some group, doesn't that spread to other aspects of involvement with that person or group? If generations have been taught that a group is bad, demons even, or Christ killers, and those reasons cease to be valid, isn't there a tendency to find other reasons to keep hating them?

I think it's consistent with a great deal of other bad behavior by Crusaders. The Crusaders also massacred fellow Christians who were culturally different, as well as Jews. They killed Circassian Christians in Turkey, Nestorians in Syria and went on a rampage in Constantinople in 1204 that caused the Pope to excommunicate an entire Crusade.

Not all Christians are of an acceptable variety. The Cathars were eradicated because they practiced a different version of Christianity than the Catholic Church. They were not eradicated for racial causes. They were the Puritans of their day and saw the Catholic Church as a corruption of Christianity.

When religious antisemitism became unfashionable after the Enlightenment, other means were established to persecute them, but would that have happened if they weren't demonized throughout history, accused of religious crimes, responsible for killing Christ, etc.? Would the "First Holocaust" or anything like it have happened if there were not religious motivations? Organized religion was the main culprit and specifically the Catholic Church that ordered the Crusades and Inquisition, but later Martin Luther played a key role in continuing the medieval antisemitism, in Germany again, that led to modern antisemitism.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. Anti-semitism preceded Christianity
Go here:

http://www.livius.org/am-ao/antisemitism/antisemitism01.html

for details of attacks on Jews by Egyptians,Alexandrian Greeks and Romans, and for the repeated expulsion of Jews from Rome. It all cases, it seems to be a combination of religious bigotry and a cultural prejudice. (Just curious: why do you conflate racial and cultural bias? They aren't the same thing at all.)

Not all Christians are of an acceptable variety. The Cathars were eradicated because they practiced a different version of Christianity than the Catholic Church. They were not eradicated for racial causes. They were the Puritans of their day and saw the Catholic Church as a corruption of Christianity.

The Cathars were gnostics and dualists, not "Puritans" except in the sense that they believed that the original teachings of Christ had been obscured and perverted by the established church. Of course they weren't eradicated for "racial" causes, but there was certainly a cultural divide between the Cathars, who mostly hailed from the Languedoc, and the northern French who comprised the armies of the Albigensian Crusade. On the other hand, the Christians who were massacred by the Fourth Crusade were certainly "acceptable" enough to the Pope that he excommunicated a whole army over their murders.

When religious antisemitism became unfashionable after the Enlightenment, other means were established to persecute them, but would that have happened if they weren't demonized throughout history, accused of religious crimes, responsible for killing Christ, etc.?

Maybe I'm just more cynical about human nature than you are, but I suspect that it would have. The Romany were never accused of killing Christ, etc., but they were persecuted as enthusiastically as the Jews by both medieval society and Hitler. Their mobility made them harder targets, though.

You've not mentioned, by the way, that many persecutions of the Jews were driven by economic as well as religious reasons. Medieval Christians were not allowed to lend money at interest to other Christians, but Jews could do so. It just so happened that the expulsion of the Jews from England coincided with Edward I's need for money to finance his wars in Wales--and the expulsion not only cancelled his loans, but allowed him to loot his former subjects' abandoned posssessions. A similar dynamic governed Philip IV's expulsion of Jews from France. Historians suspect that more than one pogrom was started by debtors who either couldn't or didn't want to repay their Jewish creditors.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #126
127. Classical antisemitism preceded Christianity
but it was still primarily religious in nature. The Roman Pagans persecuted the Jews as did the Babylonians and Egyptians, but it was still motivated primarily by religious differences.

From what looks like a high school course syllabus on the Holocaust and antisemitism:


Classical Anti-Semitism

.

Although the term "anti-Semitism" is thus relatively modern, documented prejudice, social and economic isolation, persecution and violence against the Jews predates Marr and his supporters by more than 2,300 years. In what is acknowledged to be the first historical reference to an anti-Semitic act, the Biblical account of the Purim story (the Book of Esther) recounts how the Jewish people narrowly escaped destruction in Persia in the 5th century B.C.E. All Jews in the kingdom were targeted for annihilation because one Jewish official refused to bow to the top aide of the king. Only as a result of the intervention of the queen, a Jew, who pleaded for saving her people, were the Jews saved from mass murder.

Classical anti-Semitism in the pre-Christian world followed along the same lines as the Purim story. For most of recorded history, the Jewish people had been the subjects of conquerors, such as the Persians, Greeks, Babylonians, Assyrians, and Romans. Most Jews refused to convert to the religion of their hosts and instead maintained their own religion, rituals and customs, often at great personal sacrifice.

The Jewish religion forbids Jews to bow down to any person or god other than the Creator. In the story of Purim, the failure of Mordecai, the Jewish, Persian official, to bow down to Haman, the top aide to the king, created conflict. This conflict between observing the Jewish religion and being sensitive to local customs was the basis for much of the anti-Semitism the Jewish people endured.

Examples are the following:

· Jews observed strict dietary laws. Thus they could not, according to their law, share a meal in their neighbors' homes.

· Jews also could not, according to their law, work on the seventh day. Christians observed Sunday as their Sabbath, and Moslems observed Friday as their Sabbath. As a result, Jews were often "out of step."

· People who observed minority religions were, for the most part, quite willing to make sacrifices to the gods of their host countries, even as they worshipped their own gods. With only few exceptions, Jews refused to do so.

· Also according to their law, Jews were not supposed to marry outside their faith, and most did not. Intergroup marriages often served as a bond in ancient times to promote intergroup harmony. This refusal also retarded any assimilation which would have narrowed the differences between the Jews and their host communities.

· Enlightened ancient political leaders often granted privileges and exemptions to Jews because of knowledge about their religious conflicts. Those who were not granted these privileges and exemptions often resented this special treatment.

· Jews maintained their traditional dress and continued to wear beards and earlocks even when styles changed among their hosts. The result was that Jews became more easily identified as a stereotyped culture which had ramifications beyond religious differences.

Evidence of anti-Semitism has been found in the writings of those who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, in the 4th century, B.C.E. In the first century C.E., Apion, a writer from Alexandria, wrote the "History of Egypt" which was the source for many of the false accusations about Jewish religious rituals which have plagued Jews throughout later history.

Isolated incidents of persecution against the Jews were recorded in the first century. As many as 4,000 Jews were deported to the island of Sardinia during the reign of the Roman Emperor Tiberius. The first recorded pogrom took place during the reign of the Roman Emperor Caligula in 38 C.E.

Classical Roman writers such as Cicero and Ovid wrote about the differences between Jewish observances and those of the Romans in less than flattering terms.


As you say "it seems to be a combination of religious bigotry and a cultural prejudice", but it is weighted toward the religious intolerance. But the cultural differences were connected by the religious differences, so to a certain extent they are inseparable. So, it is still religion that is the culprit.

You've not mentioned, by the way, that many persecutions of the Jews were driven by economic as well as religious reasons. Medieval Christians were not allowed to lend money at interest to other Christians, but Jews could do so. It just so happened that the expulsion of the Jews from England coincided with Edward I's need for money to finance his wars in Wales--and the expulsion not only cancelled his loans, but allowed him to loot his former subjects' abandoned posssessions. A similar dynamic governed Philip IV's expulsion of Jews from France. Historians suspect that more than one pogrom was started by debtors who either couldn't or didn't want to repay their Jewish creditors.

One of the few positions that Jews were allowed to hold was that of money lending, because it was a sin (Jesus said so), so they were a natural target for two reasons, one being the money obviously. Again, it is religious motivations setting the foundation.

In the next section, it is made very clear how Christian antisemitism was advanced systematically by the Church right on through medieval times up to the Reformation of Martin Luther in Germany, where they were further demonized.



Christian Anti-Semitism

.

By the second century C.E., both Judaism and Christianity were trying to distinguish each from the other in the eyes of Rome, as both had unique political concerns. Judaism by then had attained legal status in the Roman world as a religion and did not want Christianity, with its loyalty to a King other than Caesar, to be associated with it. The church, now largely Gentile, also wanted to obtain legal status in the eyes of Rome so that it would not be identified with the Jews, who had rebelled against Rome under Bar Kochba. Once it was clear to Rome that Christianity was not a sect of Judaism, Christianity was regarded as an illegal sect and was no longer under the protective umbrella of the legal status of Judaism. With the establishment of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire by Constantine in the fourth century, however, Christianity soon began to enjoy a position of superiority over Judaism which caused serious consequences for Judaism. The new "Christian" empire began to enact such changes as:

· The removal of former religious and governing privileges

· The curtailment of Rabbinical jurisdiction

· Prohibition of missionary work

· Jews were no longer allowed to hold high offices or have military careers (e.g. legislation in 537 C.E. which prohibited local Jewish people from serving on municipal bodies).

Negative theological attitudes began to abound, such as the idea that Jews had lost their right to exist; Jews only exist as a testimony to the truth of Christianity; Jews are suffering justly at the hands of the Gentiles because God is angry with them, etc. Various church councils drew up damaging anti-Jewish legislation such as:

· banning contact with Jews

· the forbidding of the reading of the Torah exclusively in Hebrew (553 C.E.) (see Parkes, 251ff, 392).

· confiscation of Jewish property and the prohibition of the sale of Christian property to Jews (545 C.E.).

Subsequent writings by church fathers (and church leaders throughout church history) condemned Jews, accusing them of being idolaters, torturers, spiritually deaf, blasphemers, gluttons, adulterers, canibals, Christ-killers, and beyond God's forgiveness. Church Father John Chrysostom in particular pushed the idea of Jewish sensuality, gluttony, stubbornness and rejection by God.

With the rise of the Church-State, certain religio-political attitudes such as Jesus ruling the world through the Roman Christian government became evident in the Church. This attitude of superiority, flamed by the ever-increasing integration of the Church into Roman government, continued on into the Middle Ages and was translated into repeated actual restrictions on Jews, as is evidenced by the following examples.

The Justinian Code

The Justinian Code was an edict of the Byzantine Emperor Justinian (527-564). A section of the code negated civil rights for Jews. Once the code was enforced, Jews in the Empire could not build synagogues, read the Bible in Hebrew, gather in public places, celebrate Passover before Easter, or give evidence in a judicial case in which a Christian was a party. Decrees by the early Catholic Church (partial list)

· Synod of Elvira (306)_prohibited intermarriage and sexual intercourse between Christians and Jews, and prohibited them from eating together.

· Councils of Orleans (533-541)_prohibited marriages between Christians and Jews and forbade the conversion to Judaism by Christians.

· Trulanic Synod (692)_prohibited Christians from being treated by Jewish doctors.

· Synod of Narbonne (1050)_prohibited Christians from living in Jewish homes.

· Synod of Gerona (1078)_required Jews to pay taxes to support the Church.

· Third Lateran Council (1179)_prohibited certain medical care to be provided by Christians to Jews.

· Fourth Lateran Council (1215)_required Jews to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians.

· Council of Basel (1431-1443)_forbade Jews to attend universities, them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Christians, and required that they attend church sermons.

Crusades

The Catholic Church launched a series of nine holy wars from 1096-1272. The purpose of these wars was to march to the Holy Land of Palestine and liberate it from Moslem "infidels." Along the way, the crusaders massacred all "infidels" in their path who refused to be baptized on the spot to Christianity. Thousands of Jews were massacred in Germany and France.

Blood Libel and the Black Death

In the Middle Ages, Jews were accused of all kinds of slanders and were scapegoats for the problems of the day.

· Blood Libel _ In 1144, a myth began in England that Jews murdered Christian children. This myth was expanded to become an accusation which persisted for centuries that the Jews used the blood of Christian children in the preparation of their Passover unleavened bread (matzohs). This "blood libel" was ironic in that the consumption of any blood is expressly prohibited by Jewish law.

· Black Death_ the bubonic plague, the cause of the Black Death that liquidated a quarter of the population of Europe in the 14th century, was blamed on the Jews in Europe and Asia. The Pope issued a bull declaring that Jews were not responsible for the plague, but not before many Jews were burned alive or hanged by enraged mobs.

During this period, Jews were permitted to be moneylenders and act as financiers, only because this activity, while necessary for a prosperous economy, was viewed by the Church as sinful. Because Jews enjoyed a monopoly over an activity viewed as sinful, a Jewish stereotype was perpetuated.

The Inquisition

The Inquisition was a tribunal established in the Middle Ages (13th Cent.) by the Catholic Church in Rome designed to suppress heresy. In 1233, Pope Gregory IX formally established the papal Inquisition and sent Dominican friars to South France and Northern Italy to conduct inquests. The Dominican order had set as one of their goals the conversion of Jews to Christianity. This aim, backed by the power of the Inquisition, brought on a wave of persecution.

Torture was not an approved method of extracting confessions of guilt from heretics, yet it was practiced and finally approved by Pope Innocent IV. The goal of the Inquisition was not the destruction of the heretics but rather their repentance. Burning at the stake was not common. The ordinary penalties were penance, fines and imprisonment. Penalties were often carried out by the local government, especially the death penalty. Because the fines extracted and the property of the accused were turned over to the local government which often returned a portion to the Church, graft, bribery and blackmail were common.

The church rulers were often satisfied with assurances of goodwill. The secular rulers, however, used the persecution of heresy as a weapon to further their own designs.

Unlike the Medieval Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition was established in 1478 by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella with only the reluctant approval of Pope Sixtus IV. The Roman Church's only hold over the Spanish Inquisition was the appointment of the inquisitor general, the first of which was Tom_s de Torquemada. The popes never reconciled themselves to the practices of that inquisition. Attempts by Sixtus IV to interfere with an inquisition that had become too severe were thwarted by Ferdinand and Isabella who now had a potent tool to subvert the population of Spain.

"The purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to discover and punish converted Jews (and later Muslims) who were insincere. However, all Spaniards began to fear its prying eyes. The death penalty was used more often than in the Roman Inquisition, and rules that condemned one for heresy were far stricter, often outlawing things the Roman Church approved.

"For centuries, the Jewish community in Spain had flourished and grown in numbers and influence, though anti-Semitism had from time to time made itself felt and pressure to convert was brought to bear on the Jews. Nominal converts from Judaism were called Marranos (Jews who had been baptized under duress, but were believed to be still surreptitiously practicing Judaism). After... the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella (1469), the Marranos were denounced as a danger to the existence of Christian Spain." Suspected Marranos were tortured until they confessed to practicing Judaism, and then were burned to death en masse at an auto-da-fe.

After some fourteen years of torture and death by burning, in 1492, by edict, the Spanish Jews were given the choice of exile or baptism. Almost all Jews chose to leave at this time.

The Protestant Reformation

Martin Luther (1483-1546) founded a new Christian faith, Protestantism, in the 16th century. He had been an ordained priest, but disputed Church policy with respect to the sale of indulgences (a partial remission of the punishment for a sin). Once a supporter of the Jews, he was frustrated by their unwillingness to embrace his own religion. Martin Luther became one of the most intensely bitter anti-Semites in history. His writings described Jews as the anti-Christ, worse than devils. Jews were poisoners, ritual murderers, and parasites, he preached, and they should be expelled from Germany. His view was that synagogues should all be burned to the ground, and all Jewish books should be seized.

http://www.remember.org/History.root.classical.html

I acknowledge the cultural apsects of antisemitism even in classical times, but they were both a function of religious differences and played a secondary role compared to religious reasons, until religion could no longer be used as a means to persecute them (post Enlightenment). By then the social and cultural basis for modern antisemitism to take over had been established.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. I would say that a person is what they claim to be, for historical purpose
As an atheist, I don't really care whether a Christian would consider Hitler to be a Christian. That's an internal debate, and it is based on belief in the first place. Each group believes they are the "true" Christians and all other groups have it wrong. Each individual believes that. But it is based on the belief that there is a God and therefore there is a "true" Christian, as opposed to people who just claim to be Christian.

As an historian in grad school, I had to distance any religious belief from what I was studying. I couldn't laugh at the actions of the people I studied just because I didn't believe what they did. I couldn't cheer for someone who did believe what I did. I simply had to understand them within their context, and in some ways in relation to my context (it's a constant historian's debate, don't analyze it too closely, because there is never full agreement). In other words, if I were studying the dispute between Abelard and Bernard of Clairvaux, I couldn't cheer for one, I couldn't claim one was really a Christian, etc. I could, though, say that Bernard represented the traditional Christian teachings of his predecessors, whereas Abelard differed from those teachings in specific ways. I could not judge Abelard's views, or Bernard's, though, or I would have moved from learning to advocating, from history to preaching.

Hitler was a Christian from an historical point of view. He identified himself as a Christian, he used Christian imagery (such as the Swastika) to motivate people, etc. When looking at the big picture, claiming that he was anything other than a "Christian" distorts the truth for the sake of a religious belief--in other words, it moves from analyzing Hitler to advocating a viewpoint on Christianity. That's not an historian's, nor a journalist's, job.

Of interest to an historian would be Hitler's religiosity. Did he practice Christian rituals, did he express specific doctrine, did he claim in private he was a Christian, did he take off the mask when he wasn't on stage. Did he ever privately say that he was an atheist. That, again, is quantifiable, not simply opinion. That's still history.

But as to whether his behavior was really that of a "true" Christian--that's religion, not history. That's personal belief, not objective fact. It assumes that there is a God and a Jesus and a "true" form of Christianity. An outsider, whether they are atheist, agnostic, of a different religion, or simply an historian who suspends his or her own beliefs to be objective, really has no part in that discussion.

I know most of that is obvious, but my overall point is simple, yet sometimes missed. To an historian, a journalist, or anyone else analyzing Hitler to understand that era of history, Hitler was a Christian. To a believer trying to better define their own beliefs, there's plenty of room for debate. But too often people act as though Hitler's personal actions prove he wasn't a Christian, and therefore they label him as an atheist, and in that way they miss a lesson of history--that people can be manipulated through relgious belief. That's the point of your post, it seems to me, so see, I wasn't just rambling! :)

One more point: I think religion is too often used to blame or praise people. I think most people do good or do bad or do something in between based on who they are, and for most people religion is just their justification. Jimmy Carter would be a beautiful man even if he were not Christian, Pat Robertson would be evil no matter what faith he belonged to. Both would give their faith--or lack of it--credit for their actions, but the bottom line is that they alone are responisble for what they do. The religion is just how the understand it.\

I guess my bottom line is that I believe in a complete separation of religion and everything else. Religious discussions shouldn't be used to prove anything to anyone about anything or anyone unless religion is the point of the discussion. Whether Hitler was a true Christian only matters to true Christians in a discussion on that subject. Otherwise, he was a leader who used Christian iconography as one of his tools, and beyond that his religiosity is irrelevant.

Just my long-winded opinion. Probably wrong, as always. I enjoyed your post, so I thought I'd respond. :)
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. As far as history goes -
and people saying that someone was a Christian (or something else) or not - it seems rather problematic - not just with Hitler - but with the people like our "Founding Fathers" - because some people change what they are. So you get everyone arguing their side (Jefferson was this/Jefferson was that) - they may all have quotes to back themselves up - but you have these people who believed different things at different times in their life. A Methodist, later a theist, an agnostic, then a Unitarian or some other thing. I think that people don't fit into molds as much as some people like to think that they do.

Someone had a bunch of quotes of Hitler that did NOT sound like what a person who thought favorably of religion would say. And as I remember - there were some questionable things in Mein Kampf - and even then - it seems like he was concerned about all thing Aryan German more than anything.

I don't consider myself a "true Christian" - but having been raised in a Protestant church affects how I think of religion in general. Since the people I grew up with were pretty liberally religious - I tend to think of them favorably. If I grew up in a church that emphasized hating others outside the group - I expect I would have a different viewpoint some way or another. I don't identify with any group in particular now. But depending on what part of my life you were looking at - someone might say I was a Presbyterian, a Methodist, a UU, an agnostic Quaker, or an atheist/pantheist. I'm also rather fond of Zen. :)

So I guess - what I think is that historians should consider that if a person took part in/studied certain religions during their life - that the historian should think about how those religions affected what the person did - but not assume that the person was a certain thing - or label someone as ONE thing if that does not really explain who the person was - esp. if a person was not ONE particular thing for his/her whole (esp. adult) life. And in Hitler's case - esp. if he was not practicing any religion as an adult - it doesn't make sense to me to say that he was a Christian.

It seems to me that historians can fall into the trap - even when they don't want to - of defining someone's religion through their own lens - what they know. For me - I can see that while I am what I am - and to some extent I've just looked around to see if there was any group that fit that - at the same time - I really think that participating in a religious group - and/or studying a particular religion DOES affect a person. Like Jimmy Carter's church would affect him - Pat Robertson's him. Just like groups of friends affect a person - or their work environment - or what TV someone watches. These things don't completely define or mold a person - but I think that they definitely affect people.

Like the Bushbots. You can just about figure that someone who goes along with Bush goes to a fundamentalist church and watches FOX news - and probably listens to right-wing radio. It's not accidental. Of course - the Bushbots had to choose those things to begin with. People choose their influences and then those influences continue to shape them. That's what I think, anyway.

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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. Interesting perspective...
I enjoyed reading your opinion. Just one point on the swastika, though. It's a symbol that has been acknowledged as an Aryan symbol, but I thought that Hitler took it from the Hindu symbol, which is inversed. Perhaps I am wrong, and I can easily look this up. But, I didn't think it was a Christian symbol at all. (And now it's a symbol mostly associated with hatred, though I do know a few Indian friends who have a swastika in their work place. It's very jarring to see in today's world.)

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
47. Hmmmm.
Edited on Fri Jun-09-06 07:44 PM by okasha
Henry VIII claimed to be a good Catholic. As a historian, do you believe him?
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. As a matter of fact...
Henry claimed to be a better Catholic than the pope. That's the reason the Anglican churchwas almost exactly like the RC in the beginning.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think it's entirely possible, even probable...
that a person who is "using" religion will see it not as using it, but having the power of God and accomplishing something because they're following the religion correctly. A form of Calvinism, I guess. Thinking "God wouldn't be letting me succeed if he didn't think I was doing something right."

The bottom line is, though, that whether or not Hitler, Bush, or whoever else is a "Christian", it's the nature of religious faith itself that allows and enables such monsters. It can be argued that even atheists like Stalin or Mao used this same principle to build their power and run their countries. Faith requires a suspension of rational thinking, for at least one area of one's life. I don't think that's healthy.
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. Are Osama and Saddam ...Muslims? Bush is a Christian and so
was Hitler. Can anyone prove that Christianity was not Hitler's faith?

Who has the right to say that Billy Graham is not a Christian? It's possible that someone who knows him very well, might say he's not one of faith.

Obviously, some people think Osama and Saddam are good Muslims. They have/had many followers.

I contend that Christians just don't want to claim Hitler as one of their own, because of his publicly-made evilness. Before WW2 and the Holocaust, most Germans thought he was the greatest. He was their savior from poverty, and brought back Germany out of depression. He gave them pride and dignity.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Actually - it's my impression that Saddam was secular
and that Iraq was a fairly secular place before the US got involved.

And I don't know that Osama was esp. religious - just because he used religion to get people motivated. Is there evidence that he is/was? I'm sure our media would try to play that up to demonize him if they could.


I think people should be able to see a pretty big difference in the behavior of someone who follows a religion and the behavior (and motivations) of people who lead those followers over a cliff.

I think ozone_man's reference describes Hitler's religion that is something other than Christianity as most people know it - with references being that it was questionable that he practiced anything at all (besides Aryan German Naziism) - though it does describe Hitler as being a master of using both Protestantism and Catholicism - something that BushCo seems to be trying to learn from.

I think that atheists (and anyone who is a reasonable person) pretty much wants to see Hitler described in terms that do not reflect on themselves.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Saddam is an atheist
And he only started to invoke God's name recently when it was convenient to him.
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I realized that about 10 minutes after posting...my bad.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Hmm...
I think that atheists (and anyone who is a reasonable person) pretty much wants to see Hitler described in terms that do not reflect on themselves.

Funny. I would have thought that Christians wanted to see Hitler described in terms that would not reflect poorly on them - given that I take that to be the point of the OP. I also take it to be true that Hitler claimed to be Christian (i.e. he believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ in that he was the son of God, etc). He might of practiced a weird branch of Christianity, he may not of adhered to the principles of Jesus Christ (or who knows, perhaps he did - after all, I'm pretty sure he was doing what he took to be the right course of action in his twisted mind). He was central to one of the worst atrocities mankind has ever born witness to. Much to the chagrin of many Christians, however, that does not mean he wasn't one. Only the unreasonable and the ideologues, from that statement, come to the conclusion that Christianity is evil because Hitler was one. Hitler also had a mustache - does that make mustaches evil? No, it doesn't (though it certainly did put a crimp in the Hitler-stach). But it certainly does refute the claim that all one needs to be moral is Christianity; Hitler is the case in point as he was a Christian (a shitty Christian and human being, but a Christian nonetheless).

But I really don't see how Hitler's actions extend to the whole of the Christian faith. The only fault of the Christian faith that I can see in the whole mess is the ease of which individuals are able to use it to get others to unquestioningly accept outlandish claims (such as intelligent design). That doesn't mean that Christianity drove Hitler to try to wipe out the Jews.

I take it that the foundation of Christianity (or at least many flavors of it) is that of original sin. We're all sinners - and in Christ, we shall all be forgiven for our sins. So even a shitbag like Hitler could find a place in heaven (all the while Albert Schweitzer is burning in hell). So even given his crimes and the way he used Christianity, I fail to see how that means Hitler wasn't a Christian - that is unless, of course, the definition of Christianity is one who follows the teachings of Christ. In which case, I would really like to know--even on the R/T forums--how many self-professed Christians are actually Christians at all. Who gets to decide? Do you, bloom? Do I? No. I take it the only being that could possibly know would be God himself. Since we will never know whether or not God exists until after we've passed, this definition of Christianity seems kind of moot.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. "Himmler believed Hitler was the Messiah"
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 07:55 PM by bloom
Also:

"Refusing to be photographed, Hitler's aim was to create an air of mystery about himself, hoping that it would encourage others to come and hear the man who was now being described as "the new Messiah".

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhitler.htm



I don't think most Christians are going around saying that they are the Messiah - and/or that their friends are too.


Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s chief propagandist, said in a broadcast on 19 April 1936, that "Germany has been transformed into a great house of the Lord where the Fuhrer as our mediator stands before the throne of God."

"Spiritual" sentiments of this kind were echoed time and again during Hitler’s glory years. Another powerful voice in the Nazi party, Dr. Robert Ley, proclaimed that "We believe on this earth in Adolf Hitler alone! We believe in National Socialism as the creed which is the sole source of grace!"

...But it is true. Millions of German households actually erected shrines that featured a photograph of what they thought of as their dictator’s divine countenance. They said prayers in his behalf — even directed prayers to him — throughout the day.

....Germans had only to find the right passages in his autobiography, Mein Kampf, to understand that Hitler literally demanded planetary conquest of them. As he put it himself, world peace could not arrive until "that day when the man superior to all others will have conquered and subjugated the world."

After his forces quickly overran France in May and June of 1940, Hitler redoubled his faith in his supposedly supernatural powers. He told one of his victorious commanders that he was now "more godlike than human," and was no longer "bound by the conventions of human morality."

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Stadium/6712/hitleras.htm


---------

Also - as much as the secular-humanist article (posted by ozone-man) http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=paul_23_4 seemed to wish to portray Hitler as a Christian - they just made him sound like he was not anything in particular (besides pro-Aryan-German) - and that he was not a practicing Christian as an adult.

Since I am not concerned with whether some God defines Hitler as a Christian or not (as if a God would care what our definitions were anyway) - it's really up to us - and probably up to Christians if it's up to anybody. But since Christians have so many definitions - I don't think we can really go by that. So yeah - it must be up to ME!!! :D :bounce: :party:

I say that as an adult - Hitler was NOT a Christian. As I understand the term. And I don't think he even considered himself to be. I think he thought he was his own religion. And if anyone else thinks that him/herself is the Messiah and s/he is having people killed - I think we should be very concerned.

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Are you actually denying history, bloom?
Or have you not bothered to read anything Hitler had to say about his faith and God?


"Himmler believed Hitler was the Messiah"

I don't think most Christians are going around saying that they are the Messiah - and/or that their friends are too.
How does that prove Hitler wasn't a christian?


I say that as an adult - Hitler was NOT a Christian. As I understand the term. And I don't think he even considered himself to be.
Well that's nice.

Except he did consider himself to be christian.




"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."


"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."


“For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’”


“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.”


“The world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free…”




If you want to believe that Hitler didn't consider himself a christian, that's your right.

But the cherry picked opinions that you cited don't support that belief.

Not when Hitler's own words prove you wrong.

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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. Good job, BMUS!
:)
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
48. Interesting.
Except for the first, none of your quotes is specifically Christian. At least in theory, they could apply equally to Yahweh, Brahma, Odin or Zeus, to name just a few. And I'll point out as I have elsewhere, that Henry VIII considered himself a faithful Catholic till the day he died. The Pope might have begged to differ.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Yahweh, Brahma, Odin and Zeus wanted him to kill jews?
Well, I never knew that.

Why do you keep bringing other gods and christians into the discussion?

Your personal belief is that Hitler was lying about his christianity.

What makes your beliefs more credible than his?
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #52
62. My personal belief is that Hitler was a seriously insane narcissist
My interest beyond that,as far as it goes, is in what motivated him. My point about Zeus et al. is that "Almighty" and "Lord" are religiously neutral language--they do not identify a specific god. Nor is there, obviously, any indication that any deity wanted Hitler to kill Jews. Hitler wanted to kill Jews and used both nationalism and the deep current of anti-Semitism in German society to accomplish that end.

As for his personal religious affiliation, I'm more persuaded by what he
did than by what he said. At pretty much every step of his career, he acted in direct contravention of well-established Christian ethics--and the same may be said of atheist and pagan ethics. So he seems to have been something else, wherever he may have given lip service.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. But few, if any, are saying Hitler's Christianity motivated him.
The argument being put forth, which so far no one has successfully defeated (because they can't) is that Hitler was a Christian. A murderous, "seriously insane narcissist", but still a Christian.

The point is NOT to blame Christianity for Hitler, but to point out that bad people can be Christian, too. That's all.

If you see anyone saying that Christianity made Hitler evil, show me, and I'll smack some sense into them, since it's quite probable that Hitler would have been an evil guy regardless of his chosen belief system.

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Here ya go
Post #42:

Hitler was Christian, there's no other explanation for what he did. Hitler’s persecution of Jews alone is all the proof anyone should need, but there‘s mountains of other evidence.


The point is NOT to blame Christianity for Hitler, but to point out that bad people can be Christian, too. That's all.

If so, then the point is being obscured by its presentation. Who here doubts that bad people can be Christian? There's a whole, long dishonor roll that's a couple millenia long: Cyril of Alexandria, Torquemada, Oliver Cromwell, Franklin Graham, each and every one of whom can be shown to be acting--with malice and total disregard for justice--out of a very sincere belief in what they understood/understand to be Christian doctrine. (And the wiggle there is because Torqumada and Falwell would have very different interpretations of Christian doctrine, not because there's any denial that they were or are Christians.) Now, it's possible to reject their interpretation of Christian doctrine, and Christian liberals do just that. But that's a whole other question.

Hitler, as far as I understand his history, is not that clear. I think a case can be made that, cynically or sincerely, he invented his own religion with himself in essentially a mediating or savior role. It's a bit simplistic to assume that he was a practicing Christian because he used the language of Christianity when it was politically convenient; merely talking the talk is not evidence of belief. Henry VIII, for instance, maintained until his last breath that he was the good Catholic, and the Pope was the schismatic. The Pope, Henry's very Catholic daughter and her discarded, very Catholic mother disagreed vehemenly. On a secular note, how much credence do we place in Zell Miller's claim that he's a Democrat? There's a reason we have acronyms like DINO and RINO. In my view, we can add another one: ChINO. I suspect that George Bush falls into that one, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has Hitler for company.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. "Who here doubts that bad people can be Christian?"
Well, kwassa, for starters.

But again, as much as you (and I!) suspect cynical motives behind Hitler's Christianity, it remains a fact that neither of us know for certain what he truly believed, since 1) he's dead, and 2) if he weren't, we still can't read minds.

As to the first quote, upon reflection I have to admit that it reads as blaming Christianity for Hitler's crimes, and I disagree with that. However, the long anti-Semitic tradition of the Catholic church did, as we agree, help set the stage to allow someone like him to persuade others that Jews were evil/greedy/subhuman/etc.

So, not directly to blame, but enabling, at least.

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #74
95. Yes
So, not directly to blame, but enabling, at least.

And here we agree again. :-)
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #67
100. Fine, I'll say it.
Hitler's Christianity motivated him. It was a driving force behind his genocidal madness.

Leviticus 24:16 "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death."

Anyone who is of the wrong religion is to be put to death according to Biblical law. Hitler was just following the rules laid out for him in Leviticus.

I've had it with this discussion. Disown the book of Leviticus for yourselves if you like, but don't try to deny that it's canon for the Christian faith. It is Biblical law. And don't try to say that people who are following Biblical law are not true Christians. They are the very definition of true Christians.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #100
105. Thank you, CD.
Edited on Mon Jun-12-06 09:58 PM by beam me up scottie
Disown the book of Leviticus for yourselves if you like, but don't try to deny that it's canon for the Christian faith. It is Biblical law. And don't try to say that people who are following Biblical law are not true Christians. They are the very definition of true Christians.
Excellent refutation of the NTC fallacy.

But I'm not sure that christianity was the "driving force behind his genocidal madness".

It may have inspired his hatred of the jews, but that's not the same thing.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #100
108. Interesting That He Would Use Old Testament Text
I mean since it was originally (and still is) bible text from Judaism.

I think that your post reeks

Hitler was doing WHAT HE THOUGHT biblical laws told him to do?

Or maybe he just used religion to get what he wanted when he wanted?

I don't know the answer.

People claim Hitler was a Christian. I don't deny this.
He may have believed that every thing he did was supported by scripture (although I find it hard to imagine that he was really a big bible reader)

However, this does not mean that what he did is "Christian" in the sense that he was following what the bible commands Christians to do.

If that is the case, then most Christians are really not following their beliefs and we should all take up arms and kill, kill, kill all "blasphemers"

One has to take bible scripture within the historical context it is written.

For one, the old testament was largely written by a nomadic, tribal culture, that wandered around the desert a lot.

Does that mean it has no implications for today? Really very little other than metaphorical lessons contained within the text that those who study, and follow, take into account.

Even the "literalists" don't necessarily believe that all bible text is in fact to be taken literally. Most seem to believe that it is inerrant in content, but not to be taken literally unless it is something that is supposed to be spoken or said by God (and/or Jesus in the case of Christ and Christians)
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. I edited for clarification.
The refutation of the no true christian fallacy is brilliant.

I do not agree that christianity was the "driving force behind his genocidal madness".
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. It's Cool
I was responding to Carbon Date

but partly to you probably too
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #100
112. Um ... no. Your stereotypes have little to do with the religion or ..
.. its history.

The attitude attributed to Jesus of Nazareth (whether a mythical figure of not) is clearly anti-stoning, and in fact he is the child of a woman who could have been stoned under a strict interpretation of the Law. Saul of Tarsus, later called Saint Paul, is portrayed as having participated in stonings before his conversion but not after. This early anti-stoning attitude of the Christians probably reflects a similar attitude of at least some of the rabbinical schools of the same era. A key point in the Pauline letters is the idea that the Law is a source of death, not life.

So, no -- "following Biblical law" is not "the very definition of true Christians."
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bluesbassman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. Well said.
People tend to focus on the "legalism" found in the Pauline letters, and ignore the message of love and redemption. Nice post.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Ok, I am failing to see the point in that;
many things that people you would agree are Christian say are not specifically Christian.

Not bieng snarky, but I do not understand why this was pointed out.......
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I don't understand it either.
I mean, I can understand why christians would try to use the No True Scotsman fallacy to "prove" Hitler wasn't a christian.

Why a non-christian would feel so compelled to do the same, and repeatedly, defies logic.

Fascinating.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. But the point does not even do that!
It is making less sense than the proverbial hamster right now. Here is my reasoning:

A) Christians are just like everyone else.
B) Therefore what someone says will be similar to what someone else says, with a few names changed.
C) That person just pointed that out, as a rebuttal to the Hitler was a Christian, when clearly it lies well within what is expected if he WAS.

So yes, I am not getting it at all.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Your problem is that you're not looking at the big picture.
Take a look at all of her threads.

Notice a trend?

She is doing to atheists what she accuses atheists of doing to christians.



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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Look, I think I need to PM this bit.......
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Proud_Democratt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. Hitler was involved in church.
Hitler’s involvement with the Church:

a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism


http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm


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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
107. And Didn't Pope Paul Apologize To The Jews?
for not taking action as a church against Hitler?

You have proven that there are "evil" people in church. There are evil people everywhere, why should church be any different.

The Pope's apology went a long way towards repairing relations with the Jewish people I think.

One fact that is also inexplicable, is how the whole world seemed to stand still and allow Hitler to do what he did (atheist and believer alike)

Then his armies were defeated and he killed himself.

The reality of what happened was perhaps beyond what the church imagined could be happening.
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Christians just cant admit that Hitler was one of their own brethren
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
106. While Hitler Wasn't One Of My "Brethren"
he may have said he was a Christian and therefore, may have been one.

although I would not like to claim him as a Christian, I have little choice but to acknowledge that he may have thought himself to be one, and as far as I know, that's all any of us can really do, think or believe that we are a Christian.

Of course the rest of Christianity is mired in that part of trying to live by the example of Christ's teachings, and faith.

When I look at what Hitler did, it's hard for me to see how he acted like a Christian. However, that doesn't make him not a Christian.

He wasn't one of my "brethren" anymore than Stalin is just like the rest of atheists.
On the other hand, we are all humans and share being "brethren" with the rest of those inflicted with the human condition. (literally since we are all very close genetically)
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
44. Many Muslims
would claim that Sadaam was a bad Muslim, as he wanted a secular government. It's why Osama and many others initially had a problem with him.

Faith is a funny thing. Everyone perceives these things through their biases. Everyone believes that they are right. And nobody truly knows what is in another person's heart and mind.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hitler quoted Martin Luther about the Jews several times
To promote hatred for the Jews in Germany.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Well you know
Einstein was born/raised Jewish and I have a quote of his in my sig line. That doesn't make me Jewish now does it.


There is no doubt that Hitler hated Jews. And probably the anti-Jewish sentiments of Martin Luther are under-reported because that doesn't sound very good for Protestantism in general and Lutheranism in particular.

It's hard to imagine the world if Hitler had been successful and history had been white-washed to say how wonderful he was. But that is exactly what would have happened. It always does for the victors.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Luther was an appalling anti-Semite.
He was also an elitist and authoritarian, as his comments on the Peasant's Revolt show. In that, he was a man of his time and place. The medieval pogroms that murdered so many European Jews were worst in Germany, Poland and Russia because that's where anti-Semitism was most deeply ingrained in the culture--and it was no accident that two of Hitler's most infamous extermination camps were in Poland (Treblinka and Auschwitz.)

Hitler's religious beliefs are at best ambiguous. He publicly went through the motions of presenting himself as orthodoxly religous, but his private comments, if accurate, are certainly not supportive of Christianity. (The Lebensborn breeding/eugenics program wasn't exactly the sort of thing to give the Pope warm fuzzies, either.) On the other hand, there's no firm evidence that Hitler was an atheist, and a good bit that points in the direction of a vague sort of Aryanized, occult-tinged, pagan revivalist pastiche of ritual combined with a near-deification of Germany itself. He may have used the cross on occasion, but the most familiar emblems of Nazi Germany are all pagan. The German eagle recalls the Roman eagle, the swastika is an ancient, pan-cultural sun-symbol found from India to Britain, and the equal-armed cross (as in the Iron Cross) has a number of non-Christian connotations. (At least one of them, did Hitler but know, Jewish.)
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Hitler's comments certainly do support his christianity.
Ever heard of Mein Kampf?

Unlike Table Talk, Mein Kampf isn't hearsay edited by an anti-catholic Nazi with an agenda.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
25.  Mein Kampf was written by a Nazi with an agenda.
Politicians have always made a show of the publicly prevailing piety-- even George Bush, who actually worships Jim Beam and Jack Daniels.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Mein Kampf was written by Hitler.
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 11:31 PM by beam me up scottie
But if you wish to accept hearsay over the man's own words, go for it.

And as soon as you perfect that Godometer, let me know.

Randi may give me a finder's fee.

;)

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
49. ?
Edited on Fri Jun-09-06 08:01 PM by okasha
Mein Kampf was written by Hitler.

Uhhmm, yes. Hitler was a Nazi politician with an agenda, and Mein Kampf was written as propaganda. Judging by his actions, by the symbolism he embraced, by things he allowed to be said and done in his name, his Christianity in general and his Catholicism in particular were questionable at best.

You may have noticed that I qualified a number of my statements. I've seen some of the Table Talk in English, but it appears that there is some doubt about the accuracy of the translation. Since I've not seen it in German, I reserve judgement.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. So the Godometer didn't work out?
Awwwwwwww.

Randi will be so disappointed.

Oh well, you'll just have to continue using your personal beliefs and opinions to decide who is and isn't lying when they say they're christian.

And those of us who don't consider ourselves mind readers or authorities on the personal religious beliefs of others will continue to let them define their beliefs.

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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #50
90. The same BMUS non-argument
We are supposed to believe the words of a pathological liar in a book of propoganda, over the evidence of actions in his life. And, all other words he has said as well.

You go for it, BMUS! Talk about nonsense!

Sounds like pure political agenda, once again.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. The errors in application of the No True Scotsman fallacy
this is a repeat of the note below, but since you are still talking about No True Scotsman:

I quote myself:

Being a Scotsman is a fact of birth. One who is born in Scotland can only be a Scotsman, regardless of behavior. Therefore, the "No True Scotsman does x" is a logical fallacy, because it is a fact of birth, not behavior.

Being a Christian, however, is a voluntary association. With this association travels certain beliefs that are commonly held, broadly or narrowly. This allows the definition of a Christian to be broad or narrow, depending on who views it.

Therefore, saying "No true Christian does x" is NOT a logical fallacy, because x can be used to demonstrate lack of Christian belief.

The idea that No True Scotsman CAN be applied to Christianity is only true if one accepts that idea that ANYONE who claims to be a Christian is one. Otherwise, there is no fallacy, and "No True Scotsman" simply doesn't apply.

As it is my position that not every person who says he is a Christian is one, there is no fallacy.

So, no "No True Scotsman".
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. Same No True Scotsman fallacy, kwassa!
Why shouldn't we believe Hitler?

We believe you and every other christian who makes the same claim, don't we?

We're supposed to believe only the christians who claim that no "true" christian would commit evil acts?


You go for it, kwassa. Talk about fallacies!

Sure sounds like a pure political agenda, once again.





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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. It is very funny when you adopt my arguments
I like hearing them parroted back to me.

"Sure sounds like a pure political agenda, once again."

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Thank you, BMUS.

Now, for the rest of what you said.

"Why shouldn't we believe Hitler?"

He is well-known as a pathological liar. The real question is, why should we believe him about anything?

"We believe you and every other christian who makes the same claim, don't we?"

No.

Next question:

"We're supposed to believe only the christians who claim that no "true" christian would commit evil acts?"

No.

Do you have a point of some kind?

"You go for it, kwassa. Talk about fallacies!"

I try, you avoid.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Actually it was a test.
I want to see how many more times the mods delete my posts for saying exactly the same thing as yours.

I told you about the documentary I'm doing, don't you remember?
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
64. Given Hitler's intolerance for dissent, the views of secretary Bormann
are quite likely to have closely matched the boss's views.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
21. Hitler Was Not The Kind Of Christian That I Would Want To Be
if he was in fact even a Christian

But if he believed he was a Christian (something of which I doubt)

then that would make him a Christian despite his actions.

I think the OP is right that he, and many others, even Bush, have used religion for their own purposes, to manipulate the masses.

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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. FACT! No One In Their Right Mind Wants To Be Associated With Hitler
either by religion, lack of religion, or other ways.

There are some whackos out there that want to be associated with him.

There is a "Christian" community not far from where I live that Tim McVeigh visited, White Supremacists. Probably like Hitler there?

But of course sane people don't want to be even loosely associated with Hitler.

As a Christian, I don't like the fact that Hitler used Christian ideas to manipulate the masses.

I don't like the thought that he may have considered himself a Christian.

But if he did, then he was, whether I like it or not!

I doubt he did, I like to believe he didn't really think of himself as a Christian.

If he did, I can't imagine what bible he read.

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Have you seen the notes in his bible?
Very disturbing.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. No, Haven't Seen Them n/t
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. Let's see.
But I would not say that Hitler - when he was using Christianity (or Bush* now) was necessarily a Christian. If you have someone who sees a religion as a tool to manipulate people and that person is using religion for his own gain - then I think that that person is no longer (necessarily) a follower of religion - but a user of religion.


I would say Hitler was both a follower and a user of religion. They're not mutually exclusive.

And I think that it's reasonable to believe that the person, Hitler, was NOT a "Christian" in the sense that he was NOT trying to follow the teachings of "Jesus". I think it is reasonable to surmise that Hitler was not concerned about others, he was not concerned about his relationship to any deities as he may have imagined them - if anything - it seems that Hitler was his own deity. And some say that Germany was his religion.


You're right that he wasn't concerned in following the teachings of Jesus. But by your own admission, that does not exclude him from being a Christian. As for claims that Germany was his religion, or that he indulged in self-worship- they're speculation, as Hitler himself contradicted them numerous times.

So say you have someone who sees through religion and sees religion (esp. Christianity) as the perfect way to manipulate people - why would you think that that person still believed in the religion for himself? Does it really make sense that someone would see through a religion so clearly to use it as Hitler did then (and as Bush/Rove/etc. do now) - at the same time embrace that which they see as just a tool. I don't see it that way.


Once again, there's nothing mutually exclusive about it. Hitler seeing the Church as a way to control people does not make him a non-believer by default.

What did Hitler believe? Who knows. I'm not saying he was an atheist or a deist or any other thing. I just don't think that someone like Hitler necessarily believed anything - except maybe that might makes right - and eugenics - and we don't really know what else.


That would be correct. We really don't know. But since we have numerous records of him affirming his Christian beliefs, it's reasonable to assume he was a Christian.

And while I think it's worthwhile for atheists to encourage people to question religion and esp. to question government leaders who use religion, I don't it's good to start demonizing people because they belong to a certain religious group (unless that particular group is responsible for encouraging atrocities) or the demonizers start to sound like the bad guys. IOW - that's exactly the kind of rhetoric that leads to problems.


Look, all I take issue with is Christians using the No True Scotsman fallacy to place bad people outside the fold. It encourages an attitude of moral superiority.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Very well said, catbert.
It encourages an attitude of moral superiority.


That's exactly why we take issue with it.

Some people mistake their religion for morality.


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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Expectations , the No True Scotsman, etc.
I think it's reasonable to think that someone who manipulates religion in a cynical way - people who see followers of a particular religion as "suckers" or something like that (much in the same way that some atheists do) would not follow the religion themselves.

People who manipulate others through religion - they may see religion in a similar fashion to some other non-religious people. That doesn't mean that non-religious people share anything more (than the sucker idea) with the manipulators.


I think it's reasonable to think of 3 groups in this scenario.

One is the follower of religion. These people do not expect to be perfect - but they are trying to follow a religion as best that they can. There are also pseudo-Christians in this group - who don't really believe - but they aren't out to hurt anyone.

Second is the group who ignores religion. Or they might be anti-religious - but they aren't out to hurt anybody.

The third group is the group of fraudulent manipulators. They would most likely have some religious background - and have decided to use that for their own profit or glory or some other thing. Ron L. Hubbard would be an example. It is not thought by most people that he believed any of his scientology stuff. I think that chances are that such people are more likely to be atheists than not. Or if they believe in God - they aren't expecting "It" to act on anything. They don't expect consequences.

Where you have someone like Hitler - who seemed to have given himself "God on Earth" status - it's hard to tell if he believed in an abstract "God" or that he was taking over Jesus place on earth or what.


You wrote:

"But since we have numerous records of him affirming his Christian beliefs, it's reasonable to assume he was a Christian."

From the evidence out there - there is much to contradict that and even the secular humanist site cited above (by ozone-man) didn't seem to be able to say for sure that there was evidence. And it sounded like they would have if they could have.

You wrote:

"Look, all I take issue with is Christians using the No True Scotsman fallacy to place bad people outside the fold. It encourages an attitude of moral superiority."

It used to be that Christian groups had policies of shunning and/or excommunicating people who "transgressed". They don't now - as far as I know - and that is probably a good thing - at least for the people who are trying to be followers of a religion.

It's my opinion that there are Christian attitudes that people try to adopt and the people who are clearly not adopting those and who are using religion not for anything positive for which it is intended - but use it for something negative are simply not a part of what the religion is supposed to be about. (You might think that it was intended for negative purposes anyway - which maybe it always was by the leaders - but not the followers, IMO).

It would be like if someone was a lawyer - studied the law and then used that knowledge to commit fraud. Like Matthew Hale - for whatever bad ends he could think of. The reasonable thing would be to disbar (or never bar to begin with) people like that. (And he is in prison now).

I suppose if religious groups wanted to have more respect that they would do the same with their leaders, at least (ie. molesting priests, Falwell, etc.). Of course - it's most likely to be the people in charge (not the followers in the pews) who would be the ones to be getting kicked out - by my theory. I don't think that ALL the leaders are bad - but there is opportunity for power-crazy people to have the opportunity to do damage.

I think religions should have expectations of their leaders (If Christians had the same expectations I do - there would be no Falwells, there would be no Robertsons - as leaders). And that they reject fraudulent manipulators. Hitler wasn't leading a religion. But he did end up leading the country as if he were leading a religion. That's the problem with church/state overlap. And he got the churches on board (the churches and leaders who didn't go along were subject to arrest, etc.)

The bottom line is - Christians may or may not say this person or that person is a Christian or not. But I can. Because I'm not. And since I don't think it's reasonable that religions will be eliminated any time soon - I think there are steps that can and should be taken with the leadership - for churches that have leaders, that is.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
60. ...
I think it's reasonable to think that someone who manipulates religion in a cynical way - people who see followers of a particular religion as "suckers" or something like that (much in the same way that some atheists do) would not follow the religion themselves.

People who manipulate others through religion - they may see religion in a similar fashion to some other non-religious people. That doesn't mean that non-religious people share anything more (than the sucker idea) with the manipulators.


The fact is you can both use and follow religion. Countless religious leaders (Pope Julius II comes to mind) have done just that. I see no reason why Hitler could not do the same.

The third group is the group of fraudulent manipulators. They would most likely have some religious background - and have decided to use that for their own profit or glory or some other thing. Ron L. Hubbard would be an example. It is not thought by most people that he believed any of his scientology stuff. I think that chances are that such people are more likely to be atheists than not. Or if they believe in God - they aren't expecting "It" to act on anything. They don't expect consequences.

Where you have someone like Hitler - who seemed to have given himself "God on Earth" status - it's hard to tell if he believed in an abstract "God" or that he was taking over Jesus place on earth or what.


There's no evidence at all to say that Hitler sought to take the place of God. There was a movement in the NSDAP during the war to make Nazism a religion, but Hitler denounced it early on, so nothing ever came of it.

From the evidence out there - there is much to contradict that and even the secular humanist site cited above (by ozone-man) didn't seem to be able to say for sure that there was evidence. And it sounded like they would have if they could have.


Hitler made numerous statements in public and private affirming his Christian beliefs. The statements he allegedly made about hoping to see Christianity's death, et cetera are almost all from "Hitler's Table Talk", a book that was edited by the anti-Catholic Martin Bohrmann and grossly mistranslated into English. It continues to be quoted by Neo-Nazis and revisionists. I don't really think there's a lot of evidence as to what Hitler believed than his actual statements.

I think religions should have expectations of their leaders (If Christians had the same expectations I do - there would be no Falwells, there would be no Robertsons - as leaders). And that they reject fraudulent manipulators. Hitler wasn't leading a religion. But he did end up leading the country as if he were leading a religion. That's the problem with church/state overlap. And he got the churches on board (the churches and leaders who didn't go along were subject to arrest, etc.)


I disagree. Christians are the ones who fund Falwell and Robertson, and keep them in their places. And a great number of Christians supported Hitler as well.

In Nazi Germany, there was a separation of church and state. Religious leaders for the most part were not coerced, bribed or otherwise forced to support Hitler. They were just as hypmotized by Hitler as the rest of the German people were.

The bottom line is - Christians may or may not say this person or that person is a Christian or not. But I can. Because I'm not. And since I don't think it's reasonable that religions will be eliminated any time soon - I think there are steps that can and should be taken with the leadership - for churches that have leaders, that is.


Well, since I'm not a Christian, then can I decide as well? My decision is that everyone who says they're a Christian is one, because that's all we can really go on.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
30. National Socialism as Religion
Thomas Schirrmacher, D.Th., Ph.D., Th.D., DD
President of Martin Bucer Theological Seminary

... Document 8: Song

The official song of the Hitlerjugend (‘Youth of Hitler’) at the Reichsparteitag 1934:

"We are Hitler’s joyous youth,
What need we Christian virtue!,
Our Fuehrer Adolf Hitler
Is always our redeemer!
No wicked priest can hinder us,
To sense that we are Hitler’s children;
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and holy water!."<10> ...

http://www.trinitysem.edu/journal/4-3/3_Schirrmacher_%20NS_%20FINAL.htm

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Oh brother.
How far can one take the No True Scotsman fallacy?

Because of space I cannot quote further examples. Yet there are hundreds and thousands of documents like this. All documents demonstrate clearly an agressive opposition to Jesus Christ and to the Christian faith. All make the reason for National Socialism’s unbelievable success clear – its religious enthusiasm. All of the documents mentioned above were available to the public, and had been either published or sanctioned by the Party. These are no peripheral idiosyncrasies, but were accessible to anyone interested in reading them. One only needs to browse through the song books of the Hitler Youth, the SS or the Arbeitsdienst (Worker’s Society) to find further examples. Each of these documents speaks for itself, and is sufficient to remind us how an antichristian religion propelled the world to the brink.


Anti-christian religion?

Incidentally, the attitude of the German Dispensational churches toward Hitler and the Jews compared to those of the Reformed (and Lutheran) Christians is a striking argument against Hal Lindsey's rude attack that Reformed theology will lead to a second holocaust.<32> Normally, it is the Dispensationalist who will not step in for others, because this would mean becoming involved in politics or economics. Lindsey must be reminded that love in the Bible is to be measured by deeds (1 John 3,18), not by nice words, proclamations or best-selling books.


This guy has a real hate-on for Hal Lindsey.

So much so, he's become a raving apologetic.



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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Didn't realize you're a Hal Lindsey fan. We'll have to differ on that.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Nice spin.
You should go to work for Jeb.

They'll be needing talent like that in '08.

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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. There are some interesting things
collected there. Weird prayers and all.

It figures that he would have been indoctrinating children early on:

EX. "In Cologne, the children receiving meals from the Nazi State du ring World War II prayed before meal. This prayer follows typical German Christian blessings before meal and is originally written in rhyme":

"Fold your hands, bow your head and think about Adolf Hitler. He gives us our daily bread and helps us out of every misery."<3>

--------

On top of the Web site - it says "Atheistic Religions" and I don't think that is necessarily right.

It may very well be that Hitler was a Theist - with his own brand of Theism. Though as someone else quoted - he and the leadership said many contradictory things - mostly depending on who they were talking to.


I also wonder when the writer says, "but revealing part of the Socialist message" - if he really thought it was Socialism. Some people think that -even though Hitler was really against Socialism and just included that - it seems - to confuse people and compete with the real Socialism - like some Orwellian thing.
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #39
82. Well Nazi socialism was about taking care of their own...
not all German citizens. Of course that entailed pandering to the rich, pandering to the churches, and erradicating the rest. Also, nobody with half a brain doubts Hitler himself was a theist. His rants against the "godless soviets" would have made no sense otherwise.
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
37. Hitler was a THEIST...
who used a blend of Christianity, paganism, theosophy to form his worldview. He used the Catholic church and Protestant writings(Martin Luther in particular)to support his views and garner support from the masses.




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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. So is every Christian who uses Pagan symbols really a Theist?
Churches that put up Christmas tree’s, have Easter egg hunts, just to name a few more obvious examples, are really Theists? no.

Christians use Pagan symbols because Christianity is made up out of various Pagan cultures, I don’t see why what Hitler did would be any different.


Hitler was Christian, there's no other explanation for what he did. Hitler’s persecution of Jews alone is all the proof anyone should need, but there‘s mountains of other evidence.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Christians do not use pagan symbols
such as Christmas trees the way Hitler used pagan symbols such as the Roman eagle and the swastika. When was the last time you saw a Christmas tree or an Easter egg on a military uniform? On the national flag? When was the last time you saw anyone salute a dove? Those symbols are used in connection with pagan festivals which have been adopted by the Christian Church. They do not symbolize the Church itself or all Christians, nor do they inspire any particular devotion. (At least not among the adults who have to set them up, sweep up the dried needles, dye and hide them, etc.)

Hitler was Christian, there's no other explanation for what he did. Hitler’s persecution of Jews alone is all the proof anyone should need

Hooboy, the buried assumptions in that statement would keep an archaeologist in work for a decade. Suffice it to say that not all persecutors of Jews were Christians. Some(the Soviets)were atheists, and some more current anti-Semites are at least nominally Muslim.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. I think you're missing the point of the last sentence.
It's not that only Christians persecuted Jews, it's that there was a thousand years of anti-Semitism from the Catholic Church which helped pave the way for the hatred that let people sit by while millions of Jews were murdered.

To ignore that fact is to ignore history.

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. Given that I made the same point about anti-Semitism
in my post #20, upthread, I don't think I'm "missing" anything in #42, much less "ignoring" history.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Then I'm stumped as to your disconnect.
NT!

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. I'm stumped about why you're stumped.
What disconnect? I pointed out that Eastern Europe--beginning with Germany and going east from there--has a long and ugly history of anti-Semitism that made the Holocaust possible.

The poster in post #42 states that Hitler killed Jews because he was a Christian, and that Hitler's Christianity provides sufficient cause for him to have killed Jews. That's not only blaming Hitler's genocide on his putative Christianity but calling every Christian inherently a murderous anti-Semite. Pretty broad-brush, don't you think?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Yeah, and I've addressed that elsewhere (above, I think).
NT!

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Not addressed. White-washed.
N/T
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. That's a bold claim. Care to back it up?
I indicated that blaming Hitler on Christianity was wrong. How much more agreement do you want, anyway?

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #80
94. We may be talking past each other here.
Edited on Sun Jun-11-06 05:52 PM by okasha
We agree that the Holocaust was made possible by deep-seated anti-Semitism in German and other East European cultures. No problem.

We agree that blaming Hitler on Christianity is wrong. Also no problem.

Here is where we appear to disagree:

A third poster wrote:

Hitler was Christian, there's no other explanation for what he did. Hitler’s persecution of Jews alone is all the proof anyone should need, but there‘s mountains of other evidence.

Your interpretation of that was:

I think you're missing the point of the last sentence.
It's not that only Christians persecuted Jews, it's that there was a thousand years of anti-Semitism from the Catholic Church which helped pave the way for the hatred that let people sit by while millions of Jews were murdered.


I can't see how you get from the first quote to your interpretation. The poster above appears to me to state quite unequivocally that Hitler killed Jews because he was a Christian; furthermore that Hitler's Christianity is so obviously the reason he killed Jews that no other explanation is required.

You seem to read a reference to history into that statement that is quite invisible to me. The original post #42 does not mention historic anti-Semitism or anything like it, only Hitler's purported Christianity. Can you show me anything in the final paragraph of post #42 that makes even a glancing reference to historical anti-Semitism?
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #94
102. The reasons changed over time.
But the first reasons were founded in religious (Christian) antisemitism. By the time Hitler came around, their was a social and cultural foundation established by a thousand years of religious antisemitism. The "first Holocaust" in Germany occurred during the First Crusade ordered by Pope Urban II. So when you look to the antisemitism of countries East of Germany, look back to the Crusades to understand where the antisemitism came from. Religious roots that transformed into modern antisemitism. Western Europe already expelled mmany of their Jews during Medieval times.

While the racist motives were more important during Hitler's time, the social and cultural hatred formed by religious antisemitism provided the foundation. And Hitler was a Christian, and saw the Jews in much the same way as Martin Luther, who he spoke highly of. A key difference being that Luther would have welcomed their conversion to Christianity. His antisemitism was religious in nature. But the history of religious bigotry established the background for modern antisemitism.


The German Crusade
Main article: German Crusade, 1096

The First Crusade ignited a long tradition of organized violence against Jews in European culture. While anti-Semitism had existed in Europe for centuries, the First Crusade marks the first mass organized violence against Jewish communities. Setting off in the early summer of 1096, a German army of around 10,000 soldiers led by Gottschalk, Volkmar, and Emicho, proceeded northward through the Rhine valley, in the opposite direction of Jerusalem, began a series of pogroms which some historians call "the first Holocaust" (1986, Jonathan Riley-Smith "The First Crusade and the Idea of Crusading", pg. 50).

The preaching of the crusade inspired further anti-Semitism. According to some preachers, Jews and Muslims were enemies of Christ, and enemies were to be fought or converted to Christianity. The general public apparently assumed that "fought" meant "fought to the death", or "killed". The Christian conquest of Jerusalem and the establishment of a Christian emperor there would supposedly instigate the End Times, during which the Jews were supposed to convert to Christianity. In parts of France and Germany, Jews were thought to be responsible for the crucifixion, and they were more immediately visible than the far-away Muslims. Many people wondered why they should travel thousands of miles to fight non-believers when there were already non-believers closer to home.

The crusaders moved north through the Rhine valley into well-known Jewish communities such as Cologne, and then southward. Jewish communities were given the option of converting to Christianity or be slaughtered. Most would not convert and as news of the mass killings spread many Jewish communities committed mass suicides in horrific scenes. Thousands of Jews were massacred, despite some attempts by local clergy and secular authorities to shelter them. The massacres were justified by the claim that Urban's speech at Clermont promised reward from God for killing non-Christians of any sort, not just Muslims. Although the papacy abhorred and preached against the purging of Muslim and Jewish inhabitants during this and future crusades, there were numerous attacks on Jews following every crusade movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade#The_German_Crusade


The expulsions from England, France, Germany, and Spain

Only a few expulsions of the Jews are described in this section, for a more extended list see History of anti-Semitism, and also the History of the Jews in England, Germany, Spain, and France.

The practice of expelling the Jews accompanied by confiscation of their property, followed by temporary readmissions for ransom, was utilized to enrich the French crown during 12th-14th centuries. The most notable such expulsions were: from Paris by Philip Augustus in 1182, from the entirety of France by Louis IX in 1254, by Charles IV in 1322, by Charles V in 1359, by Charles VI in 1394.

To finance his war to conquer Wales, Edward I of England taxed the Jewish moneylenders. When the Jews could no longer pay, they were accused of disloyalty. Already restricted to a limited number of occupations, the Jews saw Edward abolish their "privilege" to lend money, choke their movements and activities and were forced to wear a yellow patch. The heads of Jewish households were then arrested, over 300 of them taken to the Tower of London and executed, while others killed in their homes. The complete banishment of all Jews from the country in 1290 led to thousands killed and drowned while fleeing and the absence of Jews from England for three and a half centuries, until 1655, when Oliver Cromwell reversed the policy.

In 1492, Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella of Castile issued General Edict on the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain (see also Spanish Inquisition) and many Sephardi Jews fled to the Ottoman Empire, some to the Land of Israel.

In 1744, Frederick II of Prussia limited Breslau to only ten so-called "protected" Jewish families and encouraged similar practice in other Prussian cities. In 1750 he issued Revidiertes General Privilegium und Reglement vor die Judenschaft: the "protected" Jews had an alternative to "either abstain from marriage or leave Berlin" (quoting Simon Dubnow). In the same year, Archduchess of Austria Maria Theresa ordered Jews out of Bohemia but soon reversed her position, on condition that Jews pay for readmission every ten years. This extortion was known as malke-geld (queen's money). In 1752 she introduced the law limiting each Jewish family to one son. In 1782, Joseph II abolished most of persecution practices in his Toleranzpatent, on the condition that Yiddish and Hebrew are eliminated from public records and judicial autonomy is annulled. Moses Mendelssohn wrote that "Such a tolerance... is even more dangerous play in tolerance than open persecution

Anti-Judaism and the Reformation

Main article: Christianity and anti-Semitism

Martin Luther, an Augustinian monk and an ecclesiastical reformer whose teachings inspired the Reformation, wrote antagonistically about Jews in his book On the Jews and their Lies, which describes the Jews in extremely harsh terms, excoriating them, and providing detailed recommendation for a pogrom against them and their permanent oppression and/or expulsion. According to Paul Johnson, it "may be termed the first work of modern anti-Semitism, and a giant step forward on the road to the Holocaust."<19> In his final sermon shortly before his death, however, Luther preached "We want to treat them with Christian love and to pray for them, so that they might become converted and would receive the Lord."<20> Still, Luther's harsh comments about the Jews are seen by many as a continuation of medieval Christian anti-Semitism. See also Martin Luther and Antisemitism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#The_expulsions_from_England.2C_France.2C_Germany.2C_and_Spain
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
120. Was the Pope a real Christian?
But I would not say that Hitler - when he was using Christianity (or Bush* now) was necessarily a Christian. If you have someone who sees a religion as a tool to manipulate people and that person is using religion for his own gain - then I think that that person is no longer (necessarily) a follower of religion - but a user of religion.

When the Crusades were ordered by Pope Urban II or the Inquisition was enacted, were the Popes involved good Christians? Was the Catholic Church being an organization of good Christians? The Church was the religious body that ordered the hits on the Jews, and shares equal blame with the ones who executed the hits.

What exactly is a good Christian? Since Christainity was corrupted by the Church there really is no clear way of discerning what a good Christian is. One who follows the teachings of Jesus, but not Paul? One who doesn't think that the Jews murdered Christ, like the Catholic Church? Or one who doesn't believe in the crimes of the blood libel invented by the Catholic Church? By the time we find a good Christian, we may find that he is no longer a Christian at all. ;)
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