As of Today forward, I am officially the "Preacher's Wife"!

Today, my husband preached his first sermon at our 11:00 a.m. service (it was also broacasted on the Radio). It was on the parable of the "Prodical Son".

We belong to the same church as Barbara Lee....a very large activist Baptist Church located in East Oakland....in Northern California. Our church has attracted many forceful and dynamic preachers from around the nation (Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton have both preached there numerous times!) in it's 85 years history. And so, I am very proud of my husband because he is not a public speaker "per-se", although you would not have known that today.
http://www.allen-temple.org/

It was a very powerful sermon (and I am like....his worst critic) Titled "The long Journey to a far away place".....about the fact that we are all sinners, and yet the heavenly Father always forgives, and we can always come home, unlike what Thomas Wolf said....(that we can never come home again).

And so, he was awarded his Preacher's license, today, this father's day.

He said what inspired him to the challenge (as he is no spring chicken) other than the Lord's calling was the fact that this accomplishment would help examplify to young people (cause we have many at our church) that we should never fear failure in the challenges that we face....because that fear can easily keep us from doing what we are best at doing in life.

I had not heard his sermon until today.....and I was very pleasantly surprised as he was so captivating, earnest and straight forward.

I've decided to give him Kudos right here at DU, because I can...... on this Father's Day!

:headbang:

It is great that your husband was moved to follow his vision in this way, and that he so naturally rose to the occasion. And it is wonderful that you came here to celebrate this with us at DU.

One of the things my husband constantly tells our youngest daughter....."if you want to do something in this world....do it! Don't let the thought of failure stop you!"

If find this statement true of many of us....and I guess he figured that he would talk the talk by walking the walk. :hi:

how dare you people call other people "sinners" ? By what standards ? who give you the authority of defining what is "sin" and "not sin" ?

I don't buy (and billions with me) the story that your "God" and your "book" is that standard. You are insulting the vast majority of human beings on this planet with your sanctimonious assessment of "right" and "wrong".

I'll tell you that some are more "sinners" than others, particularly those using EXACTLY the same "standards" than yours and ruling today's America...

I know that you probably "mean well", but fact is that it is exactly that category of "preachers" that are holding or have been holding humanity in darkness for thousands of years. It's when people started to liberate themselves from the chains of religion that humanity made tremendous improvements in sciences, healthcare and democracy...

You have all right to pray to your God. But please let us all others out of your "sin" definition. Apply it to yourself if you like, at least the harm will be limited...

refers to himself and the people in the church who were gathered there to listen to him speak.

Since neither you nor I subjected ourselves to his opinion by being among the congregation of his church, I really believe he did not mean to include you and me in his "we." Non?

At least they could defend the mission that they put on their Web page

The Mission of Allen Temple Baptist Church

In obedience to the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20, given to us by the Founder of the church, Allen Temple Baptist Church seeks excellence in the ministry of Jesus by:

Evangelizing all persons to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour;

Educating all Christians to grow into the moral and spiritual likeness of Jesus Christ through the aid of the Holy Spirit;

Enlisting all Allen Temple members in personally extending the message and mission of God's love in Christ, throughout the world;

so don't tell me that the Allen Church's definition of "sinners" is limited to his congregation...

why proselyte (as a basic mission), if the others (including obviously other Christian denominations) aren't "sinners" (though they are probably not aware of it, poor souls) ????

the hypocricy is astounding

I consider that the Evangelical movement is a dangerous movement that should be contained through objective information. It doesn't matter if some of it's variations can be found into the Democratic Party or movement or because AIDS relief is sent here and there. What makes it specially dangerous is it's proselyting nature, like Scientology, Fundamentalistic Islam etc...

because it goes back to the same story ever... (a glance at this church is sufficient) centered on premarital sex, marriage... etc... and raising taxfree money of course...through the usual mambo-jambo of the "savior" etc...
then gain secular power through politics...

sorry, folks I don't buy your story...

"we are all sinners" :puke:

we are all therefore imperfect, which means we "sin"=sinners

but at least one of my perfections is not to tell others that they are "imperfect" according to very dubious "definitions" based on poorly translated pergaments.

it's at least basic humility

I can accept and even defend your right to believe in and worship whatever you want. But when the entire purpose of the religion is to "convince" others that their version of life is the only right one, be prepared to be
fought against.

Historical records show that all the "revealed"religions has only cause tremendous harm to humanity. It applies again today after a respite of maybe a hundred years...

"we are all sinners" is insulting. You might say try to get away by saying it applies only to your congregation, but in that case you just contradicted yourself.

BY WHAT UNIVERSAL ACCEPTED STANDARDS CAN YOU JUDGE ON "PERFECTION" ?

When you're in one, stop digging.

just references to a book...

argument

and look at the argument that humankind, mesmerized by any idea (religion, nationalism, etc) can become radicalized by a good manipulator with a political machine operating

it isn't religion that caused the crusades, but the men that launched them and their willingness to distort, and use people's beliefs to harm others

Stalin killed somewhere around 20 million people during his reign of NO RELIGION

Hitler perverted Christianity to meet his needs

Bush and the RW have hijacked a version of Christianity that meets their needs and is apparently very mesmerizing to its followers as they seem to be willing to do what he asks

Buddhism, which does not teach that there is a soul, or even a self, may be the only religion that hasn't been able to be used for vicious purposes.

I'm not Buddhist, nor advocating for or against, just making an observation.

of course religion has been used as a manipulative mean. But because the teachings allowed it. And because plenty thought or think that their religion ALLOWS them to do so or even recommends to do so. Such a weapon (even if it wasn't meant to be so, which I doubt - The Bible is full of victorious armies in the name of God and at the same time considered being the word of God) it can be considered as a WMD.

I am mostly talking about revealed religions. Budhism is more a philosophy than a religion. And your Stalin example is not valid, because the contrary had been possible. Another guy and no religion and a very peaceful development under other circumstances (they surely had been attacked by everybody).

Today's Europe is mostly secular and agnostic. And it's one of the most peaceful regions of the world despite terrible internal wars.

I am not against religion in itself as a mean of spiritual research and I am not agnostic either. What pisses me of is the organized proselyting around a belief that a certain group "knows the absolute thruth" and has to interfere with others lives, which are considered as "sinners" or what ? "untouched natives ?"

And it has to be told because calling the rest of humanity sinners is nothing but an insult.

and although many there are not "practicing".....more claim the Catholic religion as their own.

In reference to your statement....."calling the rest of humanity sinners is nothing but an insult."

I would correct that statement to simply, "calling all of humanity sinners is the greatest equal opportunity equalizer".

how can it be an opportunity to say that everybody is wrong BUT you ?

My take is to tell humanity "don't believe in those who call you sinners, believe in your own power to change things to the better. Rely on your own potential for a free and better life, pursuit of happiness. Don't expect it to come from any saviors may they be in Heaven or on earth, they are are NO absolute truths or written already made solutions, create YOUR OWN"...

that would be the greatest equal opportunity equalizer : trust yourself and believe in MANKIND.

And if you were raised in France even 50 years ago, you'd know that religion plays a very little role and even a lesser today. And a situation like the one that has happened in the US could hardly happen here, because laws are protecting us. On the other hand if common French laws of laicity and secularism were proposed, the majority of your congregations would oppose them, probably yours too. And the Democrats would probably not even touch it in fear of being called "Godless". Well, they are anyway...

how can it be an opportunity to say that everybody is wrong BUT you ?

That's not something I said or even implied.

Being a sinner is a condition called "Human". Some might use the word "imperfect" instead, but it means the same thing.

I didn't say anything about being right vs. being wrong, although you did.

Now say goodnight! :hi:

when you say "That's not something I said or even implied" regarding the false idea that there is "One Right Way to Live", you are forgetting what the website of your congregation says.

Also, who is Thomas Wolf?
edit: Is he a preacher from a neighborhood down the road?

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't Buddhist quotes and dogma that have peaceful messages. But ideals, words and actions are different things, aren't they? In the end, Buddhism is a salvationist religion like Islam and Christianity.
You know, since "All life is suffering." anyway... ;)

but most of the Buddhist type are not the crusade type...

I don't see the Dalai Lama, saying we must kill all those infidel taoistic Chinese...

Even Polytheistic religions had wars. The point isn't there. The Romans didn't invade Egypt to impose Jupiter.
They even found that the cult of Isis was cool and imported it back.

You cannot compare those with the two milleniums waves of massacres organised in the name of God or Allah, and the suppression of all religions by killing and torture after that. It even applies to the Jews of the old testament and still directly motivates at least 30% of the Israeli today.

He led a theocratic, oppressive regime in Tibet up until China took over. Not to say that China was a hell of a lot better, but that's why I tend to take anything he says with a lot of salt.

Buddhism has been used for vicious purposes, although probably less than most of the others. The shoguns in Japan used a cult of assassins to kill each other, who were trained to sacrifice themselves for Buddha. Also, medieval Tibet (which it was up until the 20s or so) was an oppressive, theocratic regime that tortured heretics and political opponents of the Lamas.

"oppressive, theocratic regime that tortured heretics and political opponents of the lamas"

I invite you to read Ama Adhe, The Voice That Remembers to get a true feel of living under the Dalai Lama's rule at the time of the Chinese invasion

They were the torturers, murderers, and destroyers of culture

the Tibetan people lived at peace before that

but I don't think it's a good thing to idealize a Tibet in which such things happened.

However, I will follow up on your book reccomendation. Thank you.

By *any* moral standard, everyone who's ever lived will have sinned. There is *no-one* who hasn't sometimes done petty, mean and spiteful things, and no set of rules of behaviour that doesn't regard taking the last chocolate or pinching your little brother as sins (albeit small ones) really fits the dictionary definition of "morality", I would argue.

While the precise details and scope of your sins may vary from one set of principles to another (even if you don't accept that some of there is one set, "morality", and that others are valid or invalid inasmuch as they differ from the correct one, which is a completely different argument but far from a foregone conclusion), there is no such set in which you're not imperfect.

"We are all sinners" is a perfectly fair claim, I think.



Incidentally, you seem to be arguing that trying to convince people that your standard of morality is better than theirs is a bad thing. I strongly disagree with this - I think that if you believe that doing X is good and doing Y is bad then you have a moral duty to try and make other people to do X and not Y, as well as one to do so yourself. How far you're justified in going to try and do so is debateable, but the answer is certainly "further than just telling them that you think they ought to" for all non-trivial X and Y (although not as far as "forcing them to do so" in most cases).

and? :shrug:

U.S. Rep. Barbara Lee, a Member of a BPFNA Congregation, Speaks Out
U.S. Congresswoman Barbara Lee (D-CA) is demanding information about domestic spying though the use of a Resolution of Inquiry. Barbara Lee is a member of one of our Partner Congregations, Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland, CA.
snip
In his autobiography, On The Jericho Road, Pastor J. Afred Smith Sr. tells how a remarkable story of courage, as Barbara Lee sought guidance from her pastor about the so-called "War on Terror." In the immediate aftermath of September 11, Barbara Lee cast the lone vote opposing the administration's plan for war without end. It is a compelling story, and I urge all of you to read the book. For more about On the Jericho Road and Allen Temple Baptist Church, go to this link: http://www.jalfredsmithsr-ministries.org/index.htm The BPFNA Board will be gathering this week at Allen Temple Baptist Church for our Board Meeting.
snip
Following the worship service there will be a book signing, as rabbi Lerner launches his book tour to promote his newest book, THE LEFT HAND OF GOD: TAKING BACK OUR COUNTRY FROM THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT.
http://www.sitemason.com/newspub/ish5de?id=27234&mode=print

and even if some members of your Church take a progressive stand on some questions, the question is if the basic philosophy of these kind of churches is compatible with an enlighted secular democracy. I am far from convinced.

Just saying that many of the most liberal politicians are Christians.

I didn't say this to change your views......but it is my opinion that Jesus was a liberal..........

You don't have to believe....Just like I don't have to disbelieve.

Liberal discourse means that we can exchange views although they are not always going to be the same ones.

However, I do believe that liberal discourse entails addressing others respectfully, as oppose to name-calling. Just sayin'!

(and don't tell me it only applies to your 5000) and it would probably open a way for more "civilized" discussion...

but you can't by definition : it stands in both testaments that everybody is a sinner if they don't believe in this or this particular version... there is even an "original" sin that a certain Jesus has supposed washed away by personal sacrifice. Why it didn't work is a mystery, since there are still sinners.

FYI

Jesus wasn't a "liberal" it doesn't make any political or scientific sense since the "liberal" ideas didn't exist at that time

Jesus, if he historically existed, was a Jew. What he preached, if he preached is not known. What we only know is what people who never met him wrote about him roughly 100 years after. Out of these books 4 of them were accepted by the the branch of Church that grew later in the Roman empire. The others ones became dismissed.

So it's not a question of belief, basically it's a question of advertising. If you pass and ad for a cure against a disease you better have a documentation that it works. But you are lacking practically all documentation and your "cure" is very, very disputable... both morally and practically.

Calling people sinners is like the tactic of the snake-oil salesman. Everybody is sick and the cure miraculous...

Sorry, we have evolved since 1776 and 1789....

You don't think all are sinners. Go for it!

I think that all are sinners, including myself.

It's really that simple, and the extra ink and name calling that you are devoting to make your point won't change a thing about the two opposing views.

En fin de compte, nous devrons accepter d'être en désaccord, et c'est tout !

So I guess that will be "it" for you? As you seem to have made the point that you wanted to make. Right?

but you don't have any patent on the "truth"

besides it's interesting to note according to one Baptist that I'm not included and by another (?) I am.

"the "we," I believe
refers to himself and the people in the church who were gathered there to listen to him speak.

Since neither you nor I subjected ourselves to his opinion by being among the congregation of his church, I really believe he did not mean to include you and me in his "we." Non?"

then the "preachers wife" AGREES... only to take it back some posts below....

What is worse than that is to deny that this concept exist, according to Matthew, makes you an "unforgivable sinner" (eternal sin). With no chances of being redeemed.

As usual all this lacks logic and is twisted to fit the views of the one or the other...

That's why I think that those views are not only insulting but dangerous

So there was no contradiction in what was said.

Bottomline is that you like to debate religion and call "you people" and use profanity and "insults" when it isn't required to make the point you want to make.

In the end, is like it was in the beginning......I will agree to disagree with your viewpoint. I don't consider debate dangerous until one of the debators doen't realize when to stop.

movement for dem/progressive/liberal issues to those of you who haven't bought the "snake-oil", then, since we're so gullible and youin's be the smart ones...

Good luck with that...Let us know how that goes for you....

Otherwise, if you can't rejoice for this lady in what is obviously a very important day in her and her husband's lives, and want to go on w/ this verbal sparring, I suggest you take it to one of your own posts!!

the "Religion/Theology" forum should be renamed the religion/theology forum for atheists to debate the "truth" of religion/theology

not much theology is discussed here really, a lot of fussing about who is a Christian and who isn't from those who profess to be atheists, and those, like myself, gullible enough to get caught up in such an asinine discussion

This thread has amazingly fewer detractors on it which I think speaks highly for the majority of the atheist community on DU

Really, there are a number of atheists here who are not just here to try to sink religion into the deep end of the ocean, but are interested in discussing getting along.

Peace

or else it would be discussing creationism without discussing evolution...

besides I am not an atheist. You can very well believe in some kind of "deity" or "divine purpose" without accepting concepts like sin, Holy Spirit, saviors, hell or virgin births etc.. just to take some Christian ones...

How can you believe in divine purpose without the concept of sin?

Come to that, how can you have any form of moral standard without the concept of sin? As soon as you accept that some actions are more moral than others, you accept that some other actions are *less* moral than others, and that's what a sin *is*.

One of the standard Christian canards is that you can't have morality without God. That's clearly nonsense, but it's more or less tautological that you can't have morality without sin, as the words are usually used.

Given that you're on DU and not in jail, it seems a fair assumption that you do in fact believe in some form of moral standard, so I'm guessing that you're using the word "sin" in some way other than the one it's normally used, i.e. "an immoral action". What do you use it to mean?

you can very well imagine a divine purpose without sinners or sin. Buddhism doesn't recognize sin and karma isn't sin. Neopagans don't recognize sin either...

Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral code of conduct or the state of having committed such a violation. In monotheistic religions, the code of conduct is determined by God. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, shameful, harmful, or alienative might be termed "sinful".

(Wikipedia)

But if you follow a secular moral standard - even an atheistic one - or a buddhistic one, or a pagan one you can very well live in harmony with others without being a "sinner" and still be in quest (or not) of spirituality. Morals don't have automatically to do with "sin" since it's primarily a religious concept.

we always go back to the same story : man goes up a mountain and has vision. Comes back and tells others what sin is. If they don't accept he kills them. Either you buy the vision story, or you don't (besides others come after Moses or Mohammed and redefine the "sins"). Mostly they don't agree whith eachother and start killing eachother over eachothers "sins".

Take for example : the "thou shall not kill" : it's very understable in all cultures from an utilitarian point of view. But at the same time it can be necessary under certain circumstances. So what is a sin sometimes isn't, and probably depending from who is the victim's family... Nevertheless the Bible recommends you to kill your enemies (even up to the 7th generation) and so does the Koran because they are "sinners"...

this God must be schizophrenic. So morals don't have anything to to with sin, except that the "Book" is often a good justification...

all, regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

You hold your opinion and I will hold mine. Nothing wrong with that....is there? :shrug:

This thread was started to rejoice in my faith and tell a personal story (to those who might appreciate it)....in the Religion forum.......and I guess there has to be some who would mind.

Guess you wouldn't have "liked" what MLK had to say either. :eyes:

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23

This is not about theology per se. I certainly didn't see any indication that this was about oppressing or hurting someone. In fact she did not make a negative statement about me or you about any specific person.

If we must insert the theology here: As a matter of fact, I require no belief in god to recognize that many times I have fallen short of my own ideals. Whether we call this "sin" or simply bad judgment really doesn't matter, I simply know of no flawless person.

But as I see this post, it has no vast theological implications. It's about a wife who is proud of her husband. What's wrong with that?

nobody's perfect.

Or are you?

Personally I'm not perfect. I do call my imperfections "sins" but that's just semantics. Basically they are just things to work on on my way to future perfection. I might make it by next Monday.

she was celebrating her husband's getting licensed as a preacher in a liberal church in Oakland

and you, very much like downer Debbie, from SNL come along and poop all over it

let who is without sin cast the first stone

is that gonna be you?

both of our responses were scatological!

that set up the scat responses

that really set the tone.

:-)

this is not necessary, is it?

This lady wanted to share a milestone, a family event, and in sinner's terms, you shat all over it.

Lovely manners. What a wellspring of fine human good will you are! Time for the ignore button, I guess. This kind of response never ceases to amaze me.

But it is ironic, how you claim to be without sin while barking at a fellow human.

Take you high horse and move along.

if not, then you are imperfect, meaning you fall short of perfection=sinner

that's how

no high horse

just simple reason

in Websters Dictionary. Your right it is simple reason.

ON EDIT: spelling.

because we fall short of the glory of God

in other words, we are all imperfect and God is perfect

therefore, we are all sinners

You can't fall short of the glory of God. Therefore in that state of mind you can't be a sinner.

but that doesn't mean you don't fall short of it!

I don't believe in some things, but that doesn't necessarily make them not true

I'm just not gonna say it.

;)

The Christian use of the word is from the Greek metaphor hamartia, which means "to miss the target".

And you sure did, Tock.

The idea that sin equals depravity is fairly new, and when it was used before the Reformation, it was generally used metaphorically, even by the Catholic church, and certainly by the Eastern church. Even today, the more enlightened Fundamentalist and Calvinist theologians use the word the same way. (You'll find a lot of them at Fuller Theological Seminary, generally hated by the Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell schools of thought and theology.)

There's nothing wrong in being an atheist, but acting touchy and boorish isn't going to deliver the benighted masses from the clutches of godly darkness.

--p!

It is very hard to listen to your husband do any sort of public speaking. I've had to a few times. And he also is a tenor and does a lot of solo work. Makes me VERY nervous.

But good for him, achieving his goal. Here's to years of service and satisfaction.

at what he aimed for made it all the more satisfying.....to me anyways.

So Thank you for sharing that common "feeling"....which yes, I did have.

You must have been busting at the seams.:applause:

Always nice to add another minister to the ranks of those who are living the gospel not just preaching it.

:-)

My husband stuttered for years as a young boy and a young man. But No one would have dare to guess this about him today.

It is always nice to see someone succeed at something that they are not Naturally gifted to do.

Some of us more than others.

true....

only those who are "perfect" are without sin

because it makes me feel svelte and alluring. (in a sinless sort of way, of course)

that is really cool!

sounds like a big church as well!

as we are "traditionalists" in that we have Bibles in the pews, not on a giant screen!

We are the "Glide Memorial" of the East Bay. A large Black Baptist Church serving the community of East Oakland. We have 7 or 8 choirs.....that are just totally awesome!

my church has about 350 members

it's a small church granted, originally a mission church

Sounds neat, I really like Black Baptist Churches. I've attended a couple of them and found them to be full of the spirit!

and Welcoming as all heck....

We also get all of the politicians round election time.

The pastor always makes sure that he states when introducing a politician to the congregation if it is one of those politicians who only "visits" during election time.......to the politician's dismay.....

Had both Phil angeledis and Westly there .......the Sunday before the vote, a couple of weeks ago.

Ronald Dellums squeeked by to win the Oakland Mayoral race avoiding a run off by the skin of his shinnychinchin......and he was there present the Sunday before the vote....as well.

congratulations to you both

it takes some of us longer to answer God's call than others but in the end, we all answer it one way or another

thank you for the congrats! :hi:

Although I'm not religious myself, I have no problem acknowledging that I have a less than exemplary side to myself which I have no objection to calling "sin".:evilgrin:

It sounds like a wonderful church you belong to, and a wonderful sermon by your husband. :)

It is an uplifting church.

Considering that the mean streets of East Oakland needs all that it can get in the way of attention, the church does very good work there, including Getting the Vote out! It one of the reasons why Barbara Lee gets re-elected election after election! We know she speaks the truth.....and so does our Pastor, who is a political pastor....who never neglects to speak of his opposition of this War every Sunday.

We've had folks like Cornel West there as a speaker a few times as well. The man is a poet...and loves Allen Temple!

In addition, we are gifted with a very large congregation of men, something that one doesn't "find" in as many of the Black churches as we would like.

Please excuse my french, but don't let no one here shit on your happiness. But just remember Jesus loves them also!

and you are correct.

Don't worry, I'll take care of the gifts! ;-)

Glad to hear it went so well! Say a prayer for me...I preach my first sermon July 30 and I'm scared to death!

I'll be praying for you (I'll write it into my schedule so I don't forget). I know you've got everything it takes, and I just look foreword to hearing all about it.

and I will certainly do as you ask!

Make sure to let us know how it turns out (which I am sure will be "great"!)

Have you written your sermon yet?

I do have a draft of an outline, but that's it. Just found out on Thursday that I would be preaching. AGGGHHH! We're doing a series in my church on some of the hymns that have come directly from our movement, and I'm going to preach on the hymn "Let me see Jesus Only." Probably will use text from 1 Cor. 2:1-5, as that's what the outline is from. I'll keep you updated. My dad and sister and some other friends are all hoping to come listen, so I'm super nervous!

The Lord will guide you.....in that you must believe! :)

While I was checking on the reference, I read through to 1 Cor 3 and came to verse 18:

Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you considers himself wise in this age, let him become a fool so as to become wise.

Now that's a passage that has a lot of relevance to both believers and non-believers!

Good luck with your first "solo flight" as a "sky pilot"! (Can you tell I'm a service brat? Well, at least I was when I was a kid.) As a new preacher, like FrenchieCat's husband, you're going to have your spiritual AND secular work cut out for you. This is a tumultuous age for believers and non-believers alike. Just look around, around here.

I guess the only thing to say about being nervous before preaching is to "let the Holy Spirit do the talking". I'm not a believer myself, but even the non-religious interpretation of that idea has value. I had a public speaking teacher who once told me, "make your notes, but if you're really into what you have to say, you won't need 'em". Not quite as powerful as providing a physical voice for the use of the H.S., but it's the same general idea.

It can be done in writing, as well. I think Will Pitt is among the best practitioners of that "technique" in political writing, and we're lucky to have him here, whether we agree or disagree with what he writes; in modern acting, it's Jack Black in, e.g., School of Rock or his Tenacious D persona. Divine or human, it's the kind of fire that can lift souls out of that other kind of fire and up to heaven. (Non-believers, this is a metaphor. So relax already.)

Good luck! But what do I know? You'll probably do great.

--p!

:hi:

It's good to know there are some liberal Baptist churches out there!

and you'll find that most in the CBC, the most liberal group in congress belong to one of those!

an Almighty Being or God, that it is suddenly "proof" that there is no God. Faith can be neither proven nor disproven, and I commend you on your faith. I congratulate you on your husband's choice of vocation, just as I would if he were a physician or a plumber.

Each and every human i have had contact with has had some "odd" thoughts, or committed an act that is considered immoral or illegal, I guess that makes us all "sinners" to an extent. There are those of us that realize we can make errors in judgment, and if those are "sins" or just plain bad judgment, we should be able to learn from them and do better in the future.

It seems appropriate that the story of the Prodigal Son was the one he chose for Father's Day; even if we strip away the Biblical Reference, it is a story of unbounded love for one's offspring, just as it should be...what can be wrong with unbound love?

on what you said here....."even if we strip away the Biblical Reference, it is a story of unbounded love for one's offspring, just as it should be...what can be wrong with unbound love?

The prodigal son is one of my favorite parables. The concept that no matter how far we stray off course, there is always reconciliation waiting is to me the core of our faith.

I'm just over the hill in the Tri-Valley. I'd love to come visit sometime. God bless you both.

We would very much welcome you! We love visitors of all faiths (or none at all)!

My husband is the assistant to the pastor, and is always in the pulpit at both services assisting him (he's the extra good looking one- :) ). He is also always the last person in the receiving line next to the pastor at the end of each service.

I usually go to the 11:00 a.m. service, although the 8:00 a.m. service seems more energetic and populated. The first Sunday of each month is when the Mass Choirs sing, so it is the best for the Gospel song lovers.

(click on my journal, as I have my pic posted so you would know what I look like--Although I have cut much of my hair since that Christmas'05 pic--That way you can introduce yourself!)

I look forward to meeting you both. We have been members of Jubilee in S.J. for many years, and now we have Jubilee Tri-Valley out in Livermore. As my screen name implies, I play bass, and am a member of the worship team out there. Do you guys have any music? LOL.

Having said that, I'm going to post my opinion on preachers like it or not.

They say they were called to preach and to serve by god. That's fine. What I have the problem is they go to already established churches with an already established christian congregation for the most part. They take money from the parishioners in order to get a new organ, new hymnals or whatever it is the people think their church needs.

Where in the bible does Jesus say to take money from fellow christians in order to fill their own coffers?

If the power of god was so strong as to call people like your husband to serve, why aren't they doing it in places that really need it? Why aren't they with the poor, the criminals and others as Jesus was? Why are they wearing suits and ties standing over a congregation that is already 'saved' for the most part?

Why aren't they calling people like Falwel and Robertson hypocrites for their pro-war, homophobic, greedy wretchedness?

Why aren't people like your husband denouncing those fake christians who call people names, threaten others, and endorse discrimination?

Why aren't people like your husband gathering together to denounce the so-called christians such as bush who are using your faith as a tool to promote unchristian behavior?

In my mind, preachers who claim to love Christ will do everything within their power to promote peace and love. They will stand up to this brand of christianity in politics that endorses war, death and corruption. They should certainly stand up against the manipulation of christianity by the republicans.

Let me start by saying you have valid points. But I'd like to address a few if I may.

First, being a pastor of a church is a job that demands a lot from the person doing it. Are you suggesting that they should not be compensated?

Second. have you ever been to Oakland? FYI, there are poor people and criminals there, just as there are in any city. I get your point, but don't you think the Gospel needs to be preached in metropolitan areas too?

Third, while I don't know these individuals, I do know two things about them: 1) They're in Oakland, one of the most liberal cities in CA, and 2) Frenchie is posting on DU, which lends credibility to her liberal leanings. So why do you assume that she and her husband are not speaking out against bush and the rest?

Thanks for replying and you brought up some very valid points. I question so much of this because majority of it makes little sense to me. As a kid, I had to go to my share of churches. More often than not, the preachers did very little except for Sundays and Wednesdays and the occasional wedding or funeral.

When I see them spend thousands of dollars on sound systems and other things that appears so out of touch with what Jesus teaches, it just screams hypocrisy to me.

I don't disagree with those who go out and prostelityze...that's what they see as what they are supposed to do, but I've also seen first hand at how some christians require people to proclaim christianity as their own faith in order to get a little bit of help. It's a disgrace.

I'm not denigrating this woman or her husband. I don't know them at all. But, it just seems to me that if enough preachers spoke out against the likes of Falwell, Robertson, Coulter and others, perhaps it would be enough to stop the vile they spew.

Majority of churches are a part of a denomination that is organized. The Southern Baptist Convention is probably one of the largest and just about whatever they do makes news. It's the same with the Catholics, the Episcopalians and so on. There are enough leaders of these churches that if they spoke out in one voice against the hate-filled rhetoric of Coulter and others, you can bet it would get attention.

Oh, and yes, I have been to Oakland more than once. I was stationed at Ft. Ord, CA. Hubby and I took trips to S.F., Vallejo and Oakland, too.

and assistant to the pastor....but does not get paid. Most of what is done at the church is on a voluntary basis.

This church uses it's money wisely, and just gave out 50 $1,000 college Scholarships to some of the neediest kids from the community.

We Also work with the Greenlining Institute - http://www.stthomas.edu/geog/greenlin.htm

Ours is one with many programs for the economically downtrotten, in particular, the youth....as you see, the church is located in the heart of East Oakland, an area known for violence, poverty and despair. Ours is not a ministry of wealth, opulence and we do not preach the Properity Gospel. Our church is very political and has members that are in local and national government attempting to "make a difference".

Apprentice Program Turning Lives Around
Oakland officials say parolees and those recently released from prison are responsible for a large number of the violent crimes committed in the city. One solution is to get them employed so they won't be on the street causing trouble. For the past two and a half years, one local group has had considerable success turning lives around. In ABC7's Focus on Solutions, Willie Monroe looks at the job training center at Allen Temple Baptist Church.

There was reason to celebrate. Two dozen men and women completing training to get them ready for work.

Rev. Dr. J. Alfred Smith Sr., Allen Temple Baptist Church: "There are others who say it cannot be done, but you have proved them wrong today."

Donald Kemp, apprentice program graduate: "The teachers that pushed us real hard. Thank you for saving me."
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=abc7_focus&id=3311276

National Ministries Will Soon Establish Justice Institute
According to sources from within the American Baptist News Service, National Ministries will soon start the J. J. Alfred Smith Sr. Prophetic Justice Institute for the "empowerment of prophetic justice advocates."
http://www.christianpost.com/article/education/620/section/national.ministries.will.soon.establish.justice.institute/1.htm

New York Times Ad By Community Groups Criticizes Schwarzenegger's "One Hundred Days of Inaction" check to see who paid for this add....and you will find the Pastor's name there on the list after Cornel West's.
http://www.greenlining.org/news/pr.php?id=10


My husband just preached his "first" sermon. he has just begun! Don't indict him yet!

Here's a bit about our Pastor who is 73 years old:

I'm not known for my tact. :)

I do think it takes a lot of courage to get up behind a pulpit no matter how large or small the church is. The reasons your husband is doing it is to be commended and I respect that.

I should have clarified better that this wasn't directed soley at your husband. These are issues I think about often. It makes little sense to me at times given how Christianity has become such a strong political tool in the last ten years or so. It's been used for such horrible things that I can't in good conscience even set foot in a church unless I absolutely have to.

From what you have shown about your husband, he is the kind of man that I wish all our moral leaders could be.

Thanks for replying.

:hi:

I know we get the feeling that because the right wing does it, the left wing should also talk about politics in church, and denounce people like Bush and Coulter. But it makes me damn uncomfortable, anwyays. I recognize that "they started it" and the left wing christianity, being a majority, has some power.

But if it was up to me, I wish that all politics would stay of the churches, and that the churches should stay out of politics. Political dialog should be completely absent of religion.

(hoping that isn't too religious for a political board!)

prefer to stay out of the political world for the most part....I can imagine.

Prior to Bush, I think that the Liberal churches have only activated political comment when it came to Human Rights violations.

From what I can recall many liberal churches stood up against Aparteid in the 80s and Civil Rights and Vietnam in the 60s.

The fact that the conservative churches are being heavy handed at the moment on issues like same sex marriage, homosexuality as well as "supporting" the President.......the liberal churches have not really been given an "option" to stay out. If they did, we, on the left, would not be happy campers.

could I address this questions? "Why aren't people like your husband gathering together to denounce the so-called christians such as bush who are using your faith as a tool to promote unchristian behavior?"

A number of things pop to mind here. I'll try to sort them out. First, how do you know there are NOT gatherings of like-minded invidiuals who denounce these folks? Do you really think in today's media environment they would get much coverage?

However, that said, you have to look at why people go into the clergy. Many do because they have a gift for preaching, for speaking to groups, for encouraging and clarifying. Many have gifts for counseling, mending marriages, helping people leave the world, nurturing the bereaved. Many believe they are called to help the poor, the disenfranchised. Very few feel called to purge the faith of those who would misuse it. I am sure most would agree that this is a problem, but there is only so much energy and resources available to each minister, and most choose to spend it doing the things they feel called to do. To organize, denounce, and basically politic, one needs a very specific personality and set of talents. And in many people's minds, that just isn't as vital as the day-to-day ministering they do.

God calls his people where they are needed

her husband is where he is supposed to be

...since surely you were and are the "Wind Beneath His Wings." I'm not sure if yours is one of the churches on Telegraph Avenue. If so, I used to live just up the street near Telegraph Avenue on Channing Way. I moved out of state from there 1½ years ago and my heart still grieves for the environment that was so uniquely suited to the person I am.

and 85th Avenue.......

We are in the bowels of what some would call the East Oakland Flatlands.....relatively close to what was once the Oakland Coloseum and in the heart of what some might want to call "the ghetto".

And you too of course! Sorry, I haven't read all of the responses but what did your husband do before this, and is he quiting his "day job" to be a full time minister? I'm glad for you.

I'd also like you to know that I indeed did not take that sin stuff personally. Because really, I never sin. Lol..and before you start asking if I'm perfect or not, let me assure you...yes, I am perfect.

I'd be the ultimate messiah...heh...if I believed in god.

We are both self employed as Tax Accountants and Financial Consultants for small businesses throughout the Bay Area since 1985. In addition, my husband has a law degree, and an MBA.

The ministry is something the is doing on the side to satisfy his passion for the Lord (he is the classic Prodical Son who has returned, as many of us are).....just as I do Netroots and Grassroots activities to satisfy my passion for the want to change our current politics since stolen election 2000.

We are also raising children! LOL!

Just don't let him get too carried away! I'm sure the last thing god wants is your husband to have a stress related coronary. ;)

And be careful with your kids. Around my neck of the woods, its the preachers kids who are always the WORST. Not to say yours will be, of course. It must just be a coincedence :i

My oldest just finished her first year at Harvard University. The youngest daughter is a tad bit more of a handful to manage (She likes a good audience)--and so we call her a "our work in progress".

Just don't be too harsh on her is she becomes a souless, godless atheist like me ;)

and all the best for the future of this ministry.

Myself, I move back and forth between small Quaker meetings and UU and Congregational churches, so the fiery preaching and choirs of a huge Black church are a bit foreign to me. But, I have been to them, and it is an extraordinary experience. The walls of the churches themselves resonated with the spirit in there, and I have to say I was overwhelmed by it all.

I doubt I'll be out there and have a chance to drop into yours any time soon, an opportunity I'm afraid I have to miss, but I'll be there in spirit.

Oh, and I'm doing the guest sermon at a local UU church next month, something I haven't done before, although I have done a bit of speaking, so I think I know a little about how your husband felt. I hope it goes as well for me.

It is a courageous undertaking....

Enjoy your experience, and thank you for your support in spirit! :)