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Episcopalians Reverse Course Approve Last Minute Compromise On Gay Bishops

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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 03:06 PM
Original message
Episcopalians Reverse Course Approve Last Minute Compromise On Gay Bishops
http://www.365gay.com/Newscon06/06/062106churches.htm

Episcopal delegates approved a last-ditch attempt by their chief pastor Wednesday to salvage worldwide Anglican unity, voting to adopt a resolution that calls on U.S. church leaders to ''exercise restraint'' when considering gay candidates for bishop.

The nonbinding measure stops far short of the moratorium on gay bishops that Anglican leaders demanded to calm conservative outrage over the 2003 consecration of Bishop V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire, who lives with his longtime male partner.
**********************************************************************************************
Still, the resolution is not binding and Bishop John Chane of the Diocese of Washington, D.C., said immediately after it passed that he would not follow it.

''My own understanding of my responsibility as a bishop is to live into the integrity of my office,'' Chane said in a statement


they're throwing the conservatives a bone on this-oh well

it's non-binding

I'm not stressing too much over it
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1620rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah, there are a lot of homophobic Episcopalians. But most...
...are progressive enough to overlook the minority.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. my parish is very progressive
both of our seminiarians this past year were gay

no one cares, and if they do, they keep it quiet

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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Isn't That A Bit Of A Contradiction?
"a lot of homophobic Episcopalians"

but "most are progressive enough to overlook the minority"

so are the minority homophobic?

or are there an "awful lot of homophobic Episcopalians"?
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Chane is a good man.
Edited on Wed Jun-21-06 03:52 PM by kwassa
He's my bishop, and quite up front about his liberal beliefs.

Here are articles on today's developments from the Episcopal News Service:

http://www.ecusa.anglican.org/3577_76312_ENG_HTM.htm

From Columbus: Convention responds to Windsor Report's call for moratorium

http://www.ecusa.anglican.org/3577_76301_ENG_HTM.htm

Text of Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold's June 21 message to a Joint Session of the 75th General Convention's House of Bishops and the House of Deputies.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Didn't they go through this same stuff thirty years ago w/women priests?
The sky didn't fall.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. No, it didn't fall
it lowered a bit for a while. And look what we have now? A female presiding bishop.

I say phooey with the Anglicans. Let the conservatives leave. We'll stay with the land and the buildings. What do we need Anglicans in other countries for? They'll catch up eventually.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. my assistant rector is a woman as is our deacon
Edited on Wed Jun-21-06 08:41 PM by dwickham
both wonderful people

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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Grannie, that may very well be it
Perhaps it's meant for the North Americans to show the rest of the communion the way here. Out of their ingrown, innate biases and toward a more loving communion, open to all our brothers and sisters.

It's a nice thought to cling to, anyway, huh?
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. No it didn't fall ....
...but the Church has lost both membership and relevancy as it has dropped from nearly 4 million members in the late 60's to 2.3 (more like 1.8) in 2005. Too much looking inward, feeling superior and elitist has cost greatly and now the Mormons & AOG have more influence. As an agent for social impact the ECUSA is doing a death spiral .....
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I really haven't seen any of that "elitist" stuff.
And I find a church willing to look inward to be a refreshing change.

Now if people are searching for a church that will lay out the world in black and white, tell them exactly what they should do at every moment, nad promise them all the answers, then yes, I suppose the ECUSA is not for them.

Which leaves more room for the likes of me I guess.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Too Much Looking Inward?
feeling superior?

elitist?

I'm not following you at all.

As an Episcopal I resent your characterization of my Church without some basis for making the statements.

death spiral?

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Pay no attention to those uppity gay people and women...
All they are is trouble.

:sarcasm:
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. There is an old kernel about us ...
... an Episcopalian invites a friend, stranger, or anyone to church service approximately once every 21 year.

We forgot evangelism - and we forgot that people need to have some sense of what the banner that stands right of the altar represents. It can't be everything (including clown eucharists) to everybody, but should stand for the narrow gate to salvation for everyone.

40 plus years ..... '28 BCP loving ..... vestry sitting ..... wish they'd put Kipling back in the Hymnal ..... Episcopalian.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. We're not going to become more relevant (to use your terms) by
moving to exclude people.

My own parish has gained people over the silly fuss about Gene Robinson. People who have finally left their own parishes in disgust over their hard-line stance, and people who have seen the openness of most of the ECUSA and left their RC or other churches. People who have finally found a place to worship without being made to feel second-class.

I'm an Episcopalian myself b/c my native RC church treats me as a woman as a second-class person. I couldn't raise my sons to believe there's anything right about that.

My gay and lesbian friends are quite comfortable in our parish. And we're not liberal firebrands, either (try as I might, lol).

But what is most appealing about the Episcopal church is the idea that one need not leave one's brains at the door. Diversity -- in gender, in orientation, and in thought is not only allowed, but encouraged and appreciated. That's the place for me. And that's what will attract new people.

If they want fundamentalist, all-the-answers stuff there are plenty of churches for that. We need to be the voice of equality and thoughtfulness.

And I don't think evangelization in the way you propose (getting people into church) is the way to go. Actions speak far louder. We need to get out into our communities and help people. Should they wish to join us on Sunday, great. Should they not? That should be just fine, too.

I'm not looking for notches on my belt. I don't think God much cares where or even if you attend church. I think God cares a great deal about how we deal with each other.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. The narrow gate to salvation?
I would disagree with that.

Such a narrow gate would be discouraging to many.

Are you in a Rite 1 church? You sound high Episcopal, particularly if you like the '28 BCP. Most who do don't seem to be liberal, however.
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Matthew 7 .....
gives us a wondrous look at the Way! Admonishes us not to judge, but also tells us that the Way is narrow and that by our fruits we will be judged.

It is a warning to the racists, sexists, and homophobic; and to the hedonists and relativists.

Its medium church for me - but longing for the more penitent Rite 1 and '28 BCP - of "not presuming to come to this thy table" If more of us came to the altar on our knees, I think we would thrive. And this goes for both sides in this situation.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I think the limited appeal of Rite 1 can be seen in the numbers that
use it. There isn't that much high church left.

And the way might be narrow, but that is for God to judge, not man.
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. You ought to see the Episcopal Churches with
a Caribbean and African tradition. Sure its Right 2, but its the highest church I've ever attended. When you can't see the altar for the two turfier's smoke .... ya' know there some highness going on. Sung Mass as well .....

St. Andrew's in the Bronx is where I such a pleasure.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. We've done Rite 2 sung mass
We also have many immigrants around the world, including members from Africa and the Caribbean, now in the Episcopal church here in the DC area. It makes this diocese more racially and ethnically diverse than most denominations. Plus, we have many gay and/or female clergy. It is a pretty broad tent, at least locally.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. I Have A Sign In My Yard
saying "come worship" with the name of my Episcopal Church and the times of worship

our congregation has been doing a lot to "evangelize" if you will

so maybe we've learned a lesson from the generations of Episcopalians of the past
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
15. An op-ed piece in support of the ECUSA in today's Guardian
The American way puts the Church of England to shame

The Archbishop of Canterbury seems to have abandoned the open, liberal path he once championed

The American church is to be commended for quietly carrying on with its life. The entire Anglican communion has risen up against it, Lambeth Palace included. But it has chosen to maintain its dignity. Last week Katharine Jefferts Schori became the first woman leader of an Anglican church anywhere in the world when she was appointed to head the US Episcopalian church and said there should be "room at the table" for gay and lesbian members of the church.

Meanwhile in Britain, those of us who supported Rowan Williams as Archbishop of Canterbury still dream that he will reveal his masterplan for establishing the open, liberal church in which he and we used to believe. Then we look at the realities emerging over the last five years and the dream disappears.

The official line is that we are engaged in a listening process. Both sides - the liberal Americans and the homophobic Africans - were asked to apologise. Everyone was asked to listen to the experience of gay people, so that we might learn and move forward together. In the meantime, there were to be no more gay bishops, and parishes or individuals who could not bear the liberal regime in their own area could apply to a new international commission for special anti-homosexual pastoral care.

America complied, apologising for the hurt that it might have caused to others by its actions. It agreed that for now there would be no new bishops at all, gay or otherwise. The Africans issued no apology, denounced all gays and liberals once again, and crowed at their success in establishing the commission.
...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1805799,00.html
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. the continuation is even better
quote:
"There is no international commission to protect gay people - or decent churchgoers - from offensive fundamentalism. And the listening process has its own interesting angle: gay clergy are invited to speak about their experience, but if it involves a committed relationship they will be summarily dismissed, unless they swear the relationship is celibate. This ought to be illegal. In any other organisation it is. The church alone has an exemption from human rights law, carefully negotiated by Lambeth Palace, that the church alone might continue, unhindered, in its oppression of its own gay membership and staff. In Nigeria the listening process has had an equally remarkable beginning: the Archbishop of Nigeria, Peter Akinola, has successfully sponsored a bill, now on the statute books, increasing the legal penalties not only for homosexual activity but for any public statement in defence of homosexual people."
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Terrific article, thanks!
I've been reading with great dismay over the past couple of years of the ABCs terrible cowardice on this issue.

He needs to take it on, squarely. And allow the bigots to show themselves for what they are. If they need to leave, so be it. They'll be welcomed home when they've evolved.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Williams' solution: 'constituent' and 'associate' Churches
Future Directions

The idea of a ‘covenant’ between local Churches (developing alongside the existing work being done on harmonising the church law of different local Churches) is one method that has been suggested, and it seems to me the best way forward. It is necessarily an ‘opt-in’ matter. Those Churches that were prepared to take this on as an expression of their responsibility to each other would limit their local freedoms for the sake of a wider witness; and some might not be willing to do this. We could arrive at a situation where there were ‘constituent’ Churches in covenant in the Anglican Communion and other ‘churches in association’, which were still bound by historic and perhaps personal links, fed from many of the same sources, but not bound in a single and unrestricted sacramental communion, and not sharing the same constitutional structures. The relation would not be unlike that between the Church of England and the Methodist Church, for example. The ‘associated’ Churches would have no direct part in the decision making of the ‘constituent’ Churches, though they might well be observers whose views were sought or whose expertise was shared from time to time, and with whom significant areas of co-operation might be possible.

This leaves many unanswered questions, I know, given that lines of division run within local Churches as well as between them - and not only on one issue (we might note the continuing debates on the legitimacy of lay presidency at the Eucharist). It could mean the need for local Churches to work at ordered and mutually respectful separation between ‘constituent’ and ‘associated’ elements; but it could also mean a positive challenge for Churches to work out what they believed to be involved in belonging in a global sacramental fellowship, a chance to rediscover a positive common obedience to the mystery of God’s gift that was not a matter of coercion from above but of that ‘waiting for each other’ that St Paul commends to the Corinthians.

There is no way in which the Anglican Communion can remain unchanged by what is happening at the moment. Neither the liberal nor the conservative can simply appeal to a historic identity that doesn’t correspond with where we now are. We do have a distinctive historic tradition – a reformed commitment to the absolute priority of the Bible for deciding doctrine, a catholic loyalty to the sacraments and the threefold ministry of bishops, priests and deacons, and a habit of cultural sensitivity and intellectual flexibility that does not seek to close down unexpected questions too quickly. But for this to survive with all its aspects intact, we need closer and more visible formal commitments to each other. And it is not going to look exactly like anything we have known so far. Some may find this unfamiliar future conscientiously unacceptable, and that view deserves respect. But if we are to continue to be any sort of ‘Catholic’ church, if we believe that we are answerable to something more than our immediate environment and its priorities and are held in unity by something more than just the consensus of the moment, we have some very hard work to do to embody this more clearly. The next Lambeth Conference ought to address this matter directly and fully as part of its agenda.

The different components in our heritage can, up to a point, flourish in isolation from each other. But any one of them pursued on its own would lead in a direction ultimately outside historic Anglicanism The reformed concern may lead towards a looser form of ministerial order and a stronger emphasis on the sole, unmediated authority of the Bible. The catholic concern may lead to a high doctrine of visible and structural unification of the ordained ministry around a focal point. The cultural and intellectual concern may lead to a style of Christian life aimed at giving spiritual depth to the general shape of the culture around and de-emphasising revelation and history. Pursued far enough in isolation, each of these would lead to a different place – to strict evangelical Protestantism, to Roman Catholicism, to religious liberalism. To accept that each of these has a place in the church’s life and that they need each other means that the enthusiasts for each aspect have to be prepared to live with certain tensions or even sacrifices – with a tradition of being positive about a responsible critical approach to Scripture, with the anomalies of a historic ministry not universally recognised in the Catholic world, with limits on the degree of adjustment to the culture and its habits that is thought possible or acceptable.

Letter sent to all Primates today


The Times and Telegraph in the UK, the 2 newspapers most likely to care about Anglicanism, interpret this as "Worldwide Anglican church facing split over gay bishop" and "Archbishop of Canterbury plans Anglican split".
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Good gravy, the man in long-winded!
Help me out here: am I gathering correctly that he is suggesting that the North American churches accept some sort of outsider "associate" status within the communion? Or are the fundamentalist ECUSA churches and those in the 3rd world unable to come to grips with a female primate and a gay bishop the ones to step outside?

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Well, I can't tell for sure
though there are comments earlier on in the letter that say he thinks that appointing Gnee Robinson was something ECUSA shouldn't have done. The Times article seems to think it would be the anti-gay churches making the covenant; I'm not sure if he's not proposing 2 covenants. There's a thread on it in LBN too.
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