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I think my ten commandments are better than gods. Do you?

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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 02:47 PM
Original message
Poll question: I think my ten commandments are better than gods. Do you?
You be the judge..if you want to disagree with any of these, or suggest better ones, go ahead. If you think the old commandments are better, tell me exactly why. Also keep in mind that I'm not god, and that I wrote these up in about five minutes, so there may be better commandments out there.


My Ten Commandments

1)Thou shalt not murder

2)Thou shalt not rape

3)Thou shalt not steal

4)Thou shalt not make false accusations of thy neighbour

5)Thou shalt not cause the needless suffering of animals

6)Thou shalt educate thyself in the ways of science and reason

7)Help the natural world flourish and avoid needlessly destroying it.

8)Thou shall believe in whatever religion thy wants, but not use force to make others believe it.

9)Thou shalt help the unfortunate, those of less wealth and health, to the best of your abilities.

10)Thou should keep thy body healthy, and thy brain active.


Here are the old ones for reference.


1)I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. Thou shalt have no other gods besides Me

2)Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above

3)Thou shalt not swear falsely by the name of the LORD

4)Remember observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy"

5) Thou shalt honour your father and your mother.

6) Thou shalt not murder

7)Thou shalt not commit adultery

8) Thou shalt not steal.

9)Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor

10) Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's house
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. If I were making a set of Commandment...
...I'm afraid I probably couldn't resist having something like:

III. Thou shalt not have any Commandment III before thee.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Old ones read this way to me...
Don't worship the idol but live the life. Be aware that you are part of everything and everything is part of you. Treat everything respectfully. Remember to take time off to consider all of this. Don't hurt anyone or anything, whether it be by stealing, physically harming or becoming emotionally indebted by wanting what is not yours.

It all depends on the translation. Yours gives a good translation also.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. However...
I've always liked Carlin's statement that 10 is just some nice round number which is particularly psychologically satisfying to us as humans... and that most of the existing 10 are just filler. Don't fall into that trap, too.

Here's my Revised Ten Commandments:

1) Thou shalt not quote scripture, the fuckers who wrote it got most of it wrong anyway.
2) Thou shalt put thy trust in reason and all of its disciplines, it is my creation and a gift to thee.
3) Thou shalt not be a dick. And do not trifle with me over what it doth mean to be a dick. Thou knowst damn well what it doth mean.
4) Thou wilst make mistakes and trespass against thy neighbor. Thou shalt atone with true remorse.
5) Thou shalt not prepare any dogma, nor religion, nor rite, nor evangelism to justify thine own odious thoughts, words, and deeds nor shalt thou use them as a way to sneak around atonement for thy trespasses. I've seen thou do this sometimes. Doth thou forget that I am OMNISCIENT? Wherefore doth thou believe I may be fooled?
6) Thou shalt not sully thine own home unless thou wants to, but thou shalt reap ill reward for thine poor custody. Not a commandment, just a word of friendly advice.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. This got me thinking.
I think your list is superior, of course, and I think virtually any morally enlightened person could come up with a similar list that is far, far better than the "10 Commandments." How, then, can it be the work of a god when us piddly ordinary humans can put something together that blows it away?
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. There are only two possible explanation
Edited on Tue Jun-27-06 04:37 PM by Evoman
One, is that I may just be god....hold on.

*thinks really hard*

Hm...no, still no Jessica Alba on my lap.

Scratch that.

I guess the other explanation could be that a bunch of ignorant, harsh tribal people INVENTED god and the ten commandments. Hmmm.

On edit: I found a third possible reason...maybe god is just an egotistical dick.

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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is just sad n/t
*
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Why Sad, Sir?
They seem a pretty good list. Though nothing quite tops "What you don't like yourself, don't do to others."
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. It's sad when
Edited on Tue Jun-27-06 08:13 PM by Zebedeo
a man substitutes his own notions in place of God's laws, and declares them "better." It is like when a surly 14-year old boy rebels against his father's rules of the house.

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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Gods laws are stupid
Thats my point. Billions of years of existence, and omniscience, and thats the best shit he's got. It sure is sad, in that I agree with you!
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I've got a great idea for you!
Create your own universe (a couple of scientists now claim it can be done in a lab), then establish your own laws for its inhabitants. Also, don't forget to promulgate valid laws of physics. No copying!
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. I don't know how to "create a universe"
Edited on Tue Jun-27-06 10:14 PM by Evoman
and I'm not entirely convinced that this universe was created ;)

On edit: I got to thinking...what if we are a product of someone creating a universe. If so, is it possible that our direct god (i.e your christian god) is just a guy who himself created a universe and is doing a piss poor job of it.

So, if that were the case, you would have to argue that the best god, is the ultimate god of all the universes. In which case, your christian god could possible be evil, but be pretending hes good. His own god could be displeased.

And you don't know anything about that ultimate god. So you may be completely wrong Zeb, and you might just be worshipping an evil Evoman type god who created his own universe. HA..that would be ironic.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. That Fails To Carry The Case, Sir
There is a book containing a list of regulations, with the claim they were authored by a diety. There is no particular reason to credit this claim, though some may choose to do so.

Your analagous example contains insufficient particulars to judge its worth. My life has brought me into contact with households where the children were best advised to summon the authorities to arrest the father, rather than to obey him.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Lol..good point
Edited on Tue Jun-27-06 10:00 PM by Evoman
If they really are gods rules, maybe he should yell them out at me when I break them, like my dad used to do to me. My dad, after all, didn't write out all the rules and then quietly put them in my bedsheets when I was born, and then leave and not talk to me ever after.

I'm sure gods got a nice, booming voice. He should use it a little more, no?
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. The "father" analogy admittedly only goes so far
Human fathers are humans, after all. The Ancient of Days, however, is not. I believe that He set forth a set of laws, which, if followed, would result in harmonious living on this planet. It seems to me somewhat arrogant for a human being to propose an alternate set of laws and declare them superior to those handed down by the Heavenly Father. Others may differ, and they are entitled to their opinion on the matter.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. You May Believe It, Sir
But that is only the belief of a human being, and it is somewhat arrogant, as you yourself recognize, for a human being to make any such claim as possessing knowledge of the will of the diety. To my mind, there is no diference whatever betwen your claim, and the claim you are opposing: both items are human productions, so far as can be shown by existing evidence.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Is that anything like asking
who is Zeb, to question why his god made me an atheist?
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. God does not make atheists, or believers.
God creates people, and gives them free will.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Your deity must have screwed up then.
I've never believed.

You should ask for your money back.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. You don't have to.
That's the beauty part. You are free to choose, as is everybody else.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Free to choose what?
Paper or plastic?

I see no choices.

If your god wanted me to see him, he would have revealed himself to me by now.

I don't have all life, you know, to wait around for him.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. God works in His own time and according to His own plan
For me, I was lost until a few years ago. Then the Holy Spirit showed me the truth.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Well, he's a no show.
If my ex can track me down after I moved hundreds of miles away from him, a deity really has no excuse.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. You can't choose to believe
There no such thing as choosing a belief. Could you choose not to believe in god right at this moment? No, of course not...you could pretend you don't believe in god, but it wouldn't be true. I could go to church every day, and hope to believe, but I would still not believe.

Zeb, if I wanted to believe, how could I go about doing it?
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Very, very good question
Here's the answer:

You have to become like a little child.

"I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Mark 10:15

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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Lol...thats even worse
I have no fucking bloody idea how to become like a little child. How the bloody hell do you do THAT!
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. You've got to put aside your pride
Edited on Tue Jun-27-06 10:57 PM by Zebedeo
and accept God's gift of salvation like a child accepts the food and shelter his parents give him. It is not earned by the child, but given freely by the parents out of love for the child.

That's my understanding of this passage. It goes along with "the meek shall inherit the Earth."

Meek = not prideful.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. Lol...if an Muslem came to your door
Edited on Tue Jun-27-06 11:13 PM by Evoman
and told you that in order to be saved, you would have to be willing to accept Muhammed as gods own prophet, what would you say?

And then that person told you that unless you changed your belief, you would burn in hell. What would you say>

And then, that person told you that to believe in this prophet in which you don't believe in, you have to become like a child, and believe any old fucking thing that person would feed you, what would you say?

I am not a child. I am an intellegent, rational, thoughtful being. I have pride..oh yes, I have plenty of that. I'm proud of who I am. To expect me to become some mindless child, to somehow forget every factual piece of knowledge, in order to be saved by something that doesn't exist, is ridiculous. Every piece of information that the bible has given us, I have seen to be wrong. Humans are not made of clay, diseases are not demons, women are not made of ribs, there has been no great worldwide flood, the planet is not six or six thousand days old...everyone of those things has been wrong. The only thing that I don't know, and that science or common sense can't tell us, is whether god exists or what happens when we die.

If the bible has been wrong in EVERY small piece of information, why the hell should I believe it is right on the big ones?

I cannot forget what I have learned. I have learned a lot. I am not about to become cult-accessible, NOR COULD I EVER DO IT, even if I WANTED TO.

Good day.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. Good night
I've gotta go get something to eat. Maybe some lentil soup, with chickpea wafers and a salad on the side.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #62
83. Check your PM
All will be revealed.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #49
91. Check out William James' essay, "The Will to Believe".
He argued that very point quite effectively.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
89. How many thousands of years of recorded history...
Edited on Wed Jun-28-06 12:54 PM by trotsky
and we still have yet to stop killing each other over whose god is correct. Seems to me that "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" then becomes the dumbest commandment causing the MOST strife, instead of this "harmonious living" you claim.

I guess step 1 needs to be "kill everyone who doesn't believe just like Zebedeo does" and then it would be pretty damn harmonious having this planet all to yourself.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
86. Did you read the list, Zebedeo?
They're restatements of other Biblical injunctions. Take a closer look at them. Given an hour or so, I could find one or more citations from the Bible to support each one -- and I'm not even religious.

I could understand a certain amount of theological consternation if one of them was "thou shalt have no Man-on-Dog sex", or more to the point, "thou shalt have lots of Man-on-Dog sex" -- but not the ten in the post.

Man-on-God sex? Well, we'd have to ask the Wisest of the Wise about that one. But Mr. Santorum is busy preventing flag burning this week.

--p!
Un-American Idol, anyone?
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Its okay Zeb
I promise to not stone you if you can't follow any of my commandments. Ha!
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Thanks!
Your list would allow adultery, covetousness and worshipping false gods. Meanwhile, your best commandments are directly ripped off from God's.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Exactly
Edited on Tue Jun-27-06 08:47 PM by Evoman
Those are all stupid commandments anyways. Technically, cheating is basically just stealing anyways, right? So there you go. As for the bible adultery commandment, it was stupid because women can't get divorced and remarried.

The other two are thought crimes. We all covet..there is nothing wrong with that. It can inspire someone to work harder. There is nothing wrong in wanting more for your family. That rule was basically meant to keep the poor from tearing apart the rich anyways. Its a stupid commandment.

Worshipping false gods. As far as I'm concerned, your god is false. What do I care if you want to worship your false god? My commandments ensure that you can worship your evil Christian god as much as you want, unless you don't force it on me. As far as I'm concerned, that is the most stupid commandment of them all (next to gods name in vain commandment, holy fucking jesus on a cracker, thats a bad commandment).

As to ripping off...not really. 7 of them are completely my own. The only ones I borrowed were the killing one, the stealing one, and the "bear false witness" ones. Those are the only good ones in the oldies as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately, god didn't see it as prudent having a "no rape" commandment. Which is compeletely understandable due to the misogyny when gods commandments were created by those tribals.

These are the unripped off versions....too bad that you feel none of these are more important than believing in false gods or using gods name in vain. Keeping the sabbath holy...so much more important than not destroying nature or raping.

2)Thou shalt not rape.

5)Thou shalt not cause the needless suffering of animals

6)Thou shalt educate thyself in the ways of science and reason

7)Help the natural world flourish and avoid needlessly destroying it.

8)Thou shall believe in whatever religion thy wants, but not use force to make others believe it.

9)Thou shalt help the unfortunate, those of less wealth and health, to the best of your abilities.

10)Thou should keep thy body healthy, and thy brain active.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Uh, I think "no raping" is covered by "no coveting" and "no adultery"
As for "thought crimes," it seems that you have a bit of a control-freak impulse, yourself. You would force people to keep their "brain active."

Plus, you use the word "needless" alot without providing any definition. What is a "needless" destruction of the natural world? Is building an oil refinery "needless"? What about a steel mill where that meadow is; is that "needless" destruction of the natural world? If so, I guess we had better go back to walking, and wearing animal skins. Oops! We can't wear animal skins, because that might involve the "needless" suffering of animals. Actually, to avoid "needless" destruction of the natural world, and "needless" suffering of animals, we are going to have to just die. Wait a minute - we also have to kill all the animals in a humane way first, then kill ourselves. Otherwise, the predator animals will go on in our absence causing "needless" suffering to the prey animals!

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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. We Are All Going To Die
someday

we are hastening our demise in our mistreatment of the planet and it's resources

we are ruining our people with our mistreatment

I agree that if the 10 commandments were followed the world would be better (IMO)

I also like Evoman's commandments, but it may take a few 1000 years for them to be as well known

as for universes, who knows, someone may already have done it

how would we know? Apparently they can occupy space without taking space?

BBC interview I read
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. So you can rape your own wife?
"Uh, I think "no raping" is covered by "no coveting" and "no adultery" "

No coveting = wife is already yours, so its okay to rape her

No adultery = its your wife, not someone elses, so rape away.


"Plus, you use the word "needless" alot without providing any definition. What is a "needless" destruction of the natural world? Is building an oil refinery "needless"? What about a steel mill where that meadow is; is that "needless" destruction of the natural world? If so, I guess we had better go back to walking, and wearing animal skins. Oops! We can't wear animal skins, because that might involve the "needless" suffering of animals. Actually, to avoid "needless" destruction of the natural world, and "needless" suffering of animals, we are going to have to just die. Wait a minute - we also have to kill all the animals in a humane way first, then kill ourselves"

This is actually excellent criticism, and I thank you for it. I need to think of better ways of writing this...after all, I wouldn't want ambiguity in my writing *clears throat*. I wouldn't want people to take those commandments out of context *cough* or have multiple interpretations of them *hack, cough*.

Maybe you have suggestions on how to write this down better. Maybe along the lines off "You shalt do as much as humanly possible to let nature flourish." Still a bit ambigious...but you should know in your heart if your doing your best. Maybe the DU writers could help me iron it out.



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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Nope, you can't rape your own wife.
Instead, "each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself." Eph. 5:33

Also, "love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless." Eph. 5:25-27

So, raping is right out.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. "no raping" is covered by "no coveting" and "no adultery"???
Think about what you just said.

How is a single rapist committing adultery if he rapes a single woman?
( please bear with me, people, I'm trying to see the world through Zebby's glasses)

And if "coveting" includes rape, ie: desire for sex, we'd all have died out a long time ago, O'Myopic One.

As for the rest of your meltdown, post, I'll just back away slowly and leave you to finish in peace...
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Rape is forbidden, upon pain of death
"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. "But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. "When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her," (Deut. 22:25-28).

And coveting does not refer to marital sex.

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Then why did your god forget to make it a commandment?
Something that important, at least to women, you'd think it would rank right up there with the others.

Evoman didn't forget to put it in his.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. "Ranking" of the commandments
When asked what is God's greatest commandment, Jesus replied:

"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:36-40

Now, raping your neighbor would not be loving her as yourself, would it? So it looks like God did "rank" the prohibition on raping right up there with the others.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Well, plenty of rapists do think they're "loving" their neighbor.
Have you ever been on a date with a Marine?
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Can't say that I have, thank God. n/t
*
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Why didn't god put those in the originals,
if they were so important.

Let me check..no, no...nope. No mention of Loving your neighbour in the commandments.

And if I tried to love thy neighbours like I loved myself...man, would I be in a whole lot of hot water.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. They're in there
The spirit of the Commandments in the OT is to love God (no other Gods, no taking His name in vain, etc.) and to not be shitty toward other people (no murder, no stealing, no coveting, no false witness, no adultery, etc.)
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. "Spirit of the Commandments"
Any writer worth his salt will be able to tell you what hes after, withouth vagueness, without having to risk false interpretation, without having to worry that your words are being misconstrued. The fact that god can't even write half as good as your average novelist does not bode well. In no place did I read any of what you interpreted. I still don't. I see about 3 or 4 good commandments, followed by a load of bullshit.

If god meant what he did, why doesn't he make it less fucking ambigious. Is it because he needs fodder for his lake of fire?
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. You think he lost the first draft?
Or possibly published it under an alias?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
90. Not true.
The only way you could extract a "rape is wrong" edict out of the 10 C's is to assume like people did in biblical times, that women are property, not people. And even that's a stretch.

"No adultery" doesn't help either - the definition of adultery makes it clear it only applies to people who are already married.

Your 10 C's give a terrible amount of leeway to some pretty heinous crimes.
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MikeH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. A definite improvement over the ten commandments attributed to God
Edited on Tue Jun-27-06 06:20 PM by MikeH
Attributed is a key word. (Personal disclosure; I consider myself closest to being a deist. Deists believe in a Creator or God, but do not accept any alleged revelations that are attributed to God.)

As one who had a difficult father, I would want to take out the commandment to honor one's parents, which, according to the text, would seem to apply regardless of whether or not they are abusive, or whether or not they in any way deserve to be honored.

My dad did many very good things, and I had some good times with him, and he was not by any means the worst father or worst parent anybody ever had. Even so, he tended to be very judgmental, and sometimes bordered on being abusive, especially emotionally and psychologically. He sometimes acted like being father gave him certain arbitrary privileges over his children. He sometimes decided in Godlike fashion that I needed to be treated or talked to in a certain manner, "for my own good", when I honestly made a mistake or honestly forgot something, or something was not according to his standards. And he was sometimes very poor at understanding some sensitive issue from my point of view; he would feel he needed to lecture me or scold me or straighten me out.

In fact my issues with my dad were my biggest single reason for having given up on Christianity. I was serious about Christianity as a young man in my 20's and early 30's. My dad died when I was in my mid 30's, and I came to realize how angry I still was at him a little over a year after he died, and at the same time I came to realize that Christianity had not been of any help in enabling me to deal with my dad those times he was difficult. And Christianity had not been of any help to me in enabling me to deal with anything else in my life that had been causing me pain, frustration, unhappiness, or distress.

If somebody else feels that Christianity has been of help to them, I respect that, but that was not the case for me. With all due respect to people who are Christians, I for myself am happy about not considering myself to be a Christian anymore.

And again, my father was not the worst father or worst parent anybody ever had; I know that other people have had, and have, parents who really are bad parents and bad people. I think it is wrong for such people to be made to feel they have to honor their parents.

I have been in therapy over the years to deal with my issues regarding my father, and also regarding Christianity. And again, I am now happy about not considering myself to be a Christian any more, and not being bound to any specifically Christian obligations (as opposed to obligations incumbent on any good person).

Actually, I will say I like the idea of having a day of rest every week; I believe such a day serves an important secular purpose, as well as any sacred purpose.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. Don't forget the explictly named Ten Commandments
10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

  1. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. 15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
  2. 17 "Do not make cast idols.
  3. 18 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
  4. 19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. "No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
  5. 21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
  6. 22 "Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.
  7. 25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast,
  8. and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.
  9. 26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
  10. "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."

27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 34, 10-28
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. Suggestion: For #9 make it "Make society such that as many people
as possible have a chance of surviving, and that with liberty and the fair chance for happiness. In doing so you will need to help the poor and the sick and the lonesome"

Because that covers prejudice & gay marriage and stuff too, but still says "help the poor"

Whatcha think?

Personally, that is my source of morals... though technically it is merely an extension of "I don't want to die" but to an algorithmic mind it means "treat everyone good" and other stuff. (Very close to it, anyway)
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. Good suggestion n/t
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Thanks!
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. Pretty Good Ones
won't take the place of the ones we got

but maybe we could have the secular humanist 10 commandments too
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. No, probably not
but which ones do you think are better and why? Mine or the bibles?
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Well I Like The Bible's Because They Are God's
but yours are good too

one could certainly live a better life following yours
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. But is that the only reason?
Do you think "Don't take gods name in vain" is a good commandment? Do you actually think those things are more important? Shouldn't god have put something in there about the environment?

From your past posts, I can tell your a reasonable person. You've also said various times that you do not take the bible as the literal word of god. Is it then possible, that gods commandments aren't really gods? Because seriously...if it were god, don't you think he could have put some extra commandments in their for future generations.

Those commandments are not gods commandments. They are the result of the thinking of ancient tribes that needed to keep social control.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes, They Were Written For Nomadic Tribes
to gain social control

but they are also for the most part pretty good today

now the "Lord's name in vain" probably meant something different then than it does to me today.

So, I'm not a stickler on that one.

Like I said, yours are good too.

Is it possible that the 10 commandments aren't really God's?

I don't know. I guess I tend to believe that they are.

I don't think they are followed very strictly :
3)Thou shalt not swear falsely by the name of the LORD- honesty is good, right?

4)Remember observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy" - we could all use a day off at least

5) Thou shalt honour your father and your mother.- I think that this one works unless the parent(s) are abusive assholes, then all bets are off

6) Thou shalt not murder - good

7)Thou shalt not commit adultery- pretty good policy, my wife and I think so anyhow

8) Thou shalt not steal.- can't stand thiefs

so these are good

and whether they came from God or not, they've been around a long time.

9)Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor- perjury is a serious offense (unless you are KKKarl, then you get off)

Yours are new. Give them a few thousand years and maybe they'll be as well known and observed as the original


:silly:
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
68. Someone beat you to it, Southpaw. A very famous someone.
The Ten Commandments of Solon (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 1.60)
(from an essay by Richard Carrier

1. Trust good character more than promises.

2. Do not speak falsely.

3. Do good things.

4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.

5. Learn to obey before you command.

6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.

7. Make reason your supreme commander.

8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.

9. Honor the gods.

10. Have regard for your parents.


Unlike the Commandments of Moses, none of these is outdated or antithetical to modern moral or political thought. Every one could be taken up by anyone today, of any creed--except perhaps only one. And indeed, there is something much more profound in these commandments. They are far more useful as precepts for living one's life. Can society, can government, prevail and prosper if we fail to uphold the First Commandment of Moses? By our own written declaration of religious liberty for all, we have staked our entire national destiny on the belief that we not only can get by without it, but we ought to abolish it entirely. Yet what if we were to fail to uphold Solon's first commandment? The danger to society would be clear--indeed, doesn't this commandment speak to the heart of what makes or breaks a democratic society? Isn't it absolutely fundamental that we not trust the promises of politicians and flatterers, but elect our leaders and choose our friends instead by taking the trouble to evaluate the goodness of their character? This, then, can truly be said to be an ideal that is fundamental to modern moral and political thought.

Now, two of the commandments of Solon are almost identical to those advocated by Moses: do not speak falsely, and have regard for your parents. Of course, Solon does not restrict his first injunction to false accusations or testimony against others, as Moses does. Solon's commandment is more profound and thus more fundamental, and is properly qualified by the other commandments in just the way we believe is appropriate--for Solon's rules allow one to lie if doing so is a good deed (no such prescription to do good appears in the Ten Commandments of Moses). And whereas Moses calls us to honor our parents (in the Hebrew, from kabed, "to honor, to glorify"), Solon's choice of words is more appropriate--he only asks us to treat our parents in a respectful way (in the Greek, from aideomai, "to show a sense of regard for, to have compassion upon"), which we can do even if we disobey or oppose them, and even if we disapprove of their character and thus have no grounds to honor them.

In contrast with Moses, Solon wastes no words with legalisms--he sums up everything in three words: do good things. This is an essential moral principle, lacking from the commands of Moses, which allows one to qualify all the others. And instead of simply commanding us to follow rules, Solon's commandments involve significant social and political advice: temper our readiness to rebel and to do our own thing (which Solon does not prohibit) by learning first how to follow others; take care when making friends, and stick by them; always give good advice--don't just say what people want to hear; shun bad people. It can be said without doubt that this advice is exactly what we need in order to be successful and secure--as individuals, as communities, and even as a nation. The ideals represented by these commandments really do rest at the foundation of modern American morality and society, and would be far more useful for school children whose greatest dangers are peer influence, rashness and naivete.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/carrier2.html


And before someone starts peeing a little in excitement after seeing Commandment #10, read what Carrier had to say about that one as well:

There is but one that might give a secularist pause: Solon's commandment to honor the gods (in the Greek, timaô, "to honor, to revere, to pay due regard"). Yet when we compare it to the similar First Three Commandments of Moses, we see how much more Solon's single religious commandment can be made to suit our society and our civic ideals: it does not have to restrict religious freedom, for it does not demand that we believe in anyone's god or follow anyone's religious rules. It remains in the appropriate plural. Solon asks us to give the plethora of gods the regard that they are due, and we can say that some gods are not due much--such as the racist gods and gods of hellfire. In the end, it is good to be respectful of the gods of others, which we can do even if we are criticizing them, even if we disbelieve in them. This would remain true to our most prized American ethic of religious liberty and civility. Though it might better be rendered now, "Respect the religions of others," there is something fitting in admitting that there are many gods, the many that people invent and hope for.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. Sign me up.
#5 was the deal clincher.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Lol.....I've broken that one, but I'm trying.
I never kill bugs, and I've never hunted, but I do eat meat occasionally, which is bad :(. I tried to be a vegetarian once, and it made me sick. I need a huge intake of protein because I lift weight, and all non-meat sources of protein give me bad, stomach cramping gas. Beans, lentils, soy, etc..even too much milk. I'm also sensitive to grains...too much bread (except oatmeal..I can eat that) and I start feeling sick and fatigued. Nuts and eggs and cheese are okay, but eggs have too much cholesteral too eat everyday and nuts are small and expensive (I'm a starving student).
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Pasta?
I've lived on it before; inexpensive, a great variety and very filling.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Too much carbs kill me
Most of them are made from enriched flour...even the whole wheat ones are still wheat. Without some meat in it, I would disappear to nothing..I have a fast metabolism and its all I can do to stay the same weight I do now.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. Don't feel guilty
Bugs kill other bugs all the time. Also, prey animals are constantly being killed and eaten by predator animals. It's the way of the world, whether you believe in anything religious or not.

Besides, if God didn't want us to eat animals, why did He make them out of meat? ;)
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Why did he make us out of meat? Can Evoman have your leg for brunch?
I'd have to abstain, of course.

Carcasses and the smell of rotting flesh make me ill.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. Oh yes
Zeb stew
I dont mind if I do
His tasty thigh
And Zeb brain pie.

What tasty fare
without the hair
For that I must shave
What I most crave.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Zeb brain pie.
No chance of leftovers, is there?
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. That was just mean
Behave.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Lighten up. Zeb knows I'm kidding.
He knows what he's in for when he plays with us, and I do believe he enjoys it as much as we do.

Give him a little credit.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Mmm Hmmm.
And I think I have more than enough brain to supply pie filling for each of you! ;)
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. G'night, BMUS
I gotta go. It's been real.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Sleep well.
We need Dems behind enemy lines.

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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. I don't kill things that I don't have to.
Edited on Tue Jun-27-06 11:02 PM by Evoman
Bugs kill each other for food. I don't eat the bugs I kill. I will never extinguish any form of life if I can help it. Never. Thats not for me to decide...everything has its life span.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. You wouldn't have to kill Zebby if he'd just give you his leg.
Why, a good christian should be glad to help out a starving student.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #61
74. How about it I eat a pizza
and regurgitate it for Evoman, like a mama bird would do? ;)
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. Marines do that too.
Frequently.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. I met a girl at a club in L.A. in the 80's
She was an animal liberationist and an bit part actress on Cagney & Lacey. She told me that she would never kill a bug or any other animal. I asked her - what do you do if you find roaches in your apartment? She replied: "That's why I move alot." LOL, true story.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Good for her.
She's not alone.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Why would you want to live in a roach infested apartment
Hell, Even fumagation doesn't get rid of those guys. I would move out the next fucking day.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. Unfortunately,
some people have no choice.

I wonder if the science community will eventually come up with a version of the creatures in "Mimic".
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. This is one of those diffiiculties with that commandment
Edited on Wed Jun-28-06 12:55 AM by Evoman
that has been noted in other areas of this post. And it is an important one. Being that we are animals ourselves, and to some degree, we have to survive to propogate, there are times that we need to kill.

For example, in a case where you have roaches, or had a widow spider or something, in your apartment, there are some dangers. In cases like this, its survive or become sick. Or if you have roaches, no girl will want to sleep in your apartment...there go your chances of having offspring! What I meant by needless killing, and which many people have told me was vague, was that you don't kill anything that you don't have to kill. If I find a spider or bug in my apartment, I usually just grab them and take them outside. Its taken me seconds to stop and do that. I don't have to kill anything. I don't have to extinguish life needlessly. Maybe the next Mac has an irrational fear of spider..if thats the case, killing a spider is understandable.

If for example, you have termites..then, well, in order to save the buildings (and prevent it from collapsing on people) you might have to fumigate. Its one of those really hard issues to iron out. I'm definitely no god, and like I said, I wrote this list out in five minutes, so I'm sure I could come up with some revisions if I wasn't so damn busy writing my thesis, lol.

If I had eternity...what I could do with that time ;)
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #79
87. Only if they come up with more creatures like Mira Sorvino
:evilgrin:

(There's never a leering Groucho emoticon when you need one!)

I don't remember his name offhand, but the male lead was also pretty swoonworthy, according to one of my highly-qualified sources.

--p!
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
80. One could argue a lot over what "needless" means.
Is killing animals for food, if you raise the animals in decent conditions and slaughter them "humanely"... is that still "needless" suffering?

If animals suffer for medical research which greatly benefits humans, and someone is at least trying to keep the suffering to a minimum, is that "needless" or does the human benefit make it justified suffering?

I'm for humane treatment of animals, but I also support carefully done medical research, and I'm an unabashed omnivore. I think our intelligence and awareness of what other creatures experience obligates us to some degree of sensitivity about how those creatures are treated, but I don't think we're obligated to step completely out of the natural web of life in which any other creature wouldn't hesitate to harm a member of another species if in doing so it gained a few calories or a survival advantage for itself or its offspring.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Fair enough
Edited on Wed Jun-28-06 12:46 AM by Evoman
These are good criticisms....they need to be ironed out. The definition of needless, is of course, open to interpretation. Its very difficult to be completely defend a position of being against animal use in an ethical debate. I took an Ethics Philosophy class and I defended the usage of animals, and the eating of animals. It was a hell of a lot easier.

I thank you for you criticisms. They are very well reasoned.
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
38. I always thought
that the 10 commandments would be much more meaningful if they were a list of do's rather than dont's. This would make them much harder to follow, true, but they would have more meaning and people would not try to claim holiness based on a simple list of prohibitions.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. Yay !!!
catbert's here!!!
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #38
84. Excellent point
One thing I've learned is that if you want to stop/prevent maladaptive behaviors is to avoid addressing them directly if possible, and to instead indicate and reinforce the desired appropriate behaviors.

Instead of "Do not commit adultery" say "Uphold your marriage vows" (not only does this cover fidelity but the other vows as well).

Rather than "Do not kill" say "Honor life and take every possible measure to preserve it" (this asks the person to be more active than simply refraining from killing).

And so on...




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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. Seriously, why hasn't god taken this stuff into account, lol.
A bunch of us mentally masterbating on some website have, within one day, come up with better ways of expressing the commandments. And coming out with better ones. These are some very good suggestions I'm hearing....although, in the end, without some angry god to torture us for eternity, whats gonna make anyone actually obey these commandments.

I can't back up my commandments with fire and brimstone.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
88. Yours are better.
I long ago thought - that one of the problems of Christianity is that the Bible ends and the idea is supposed to be that whatever is in it cannot be improved upon. And of course - that is why it has to be "written by God" - so nobody can go around arguing about it.

I suppose that it cuts down on arguing. That would be the only benefit. If that's a benefit. I guess that is debatable, too.

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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
92. I like your commandements, but you might need a subheading on hubris.
Edited on Wed Jun-28-06 09:48 PM by Vidar
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