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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 12:40 PM
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The Ten Commandments of Solon
The Ten Commandments of Solon
(Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 1.60)
from an essay by Richard Carrier

1. Trust good character more than promises.

2. Do not speak falsely.

3. Do good things.

4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.

5. Learn to obey before you command.

6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.

7. Make reason your supreme commander.

8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.

9. Honor the gods.

10. Have regard for your parents.


Unlike the Commandments of Moses, none of these is outdated or antithetical to modern moral or political thought. Every one could be taken up by anyone today, of any creed--except perhaps only one. And indeed, there is something much more profound in these commandments. They are far more useful as precepts for living one's life. Can society, can government, prevail and prosper if we fail to uphold the First Commandment of Moses? By our own written declaration of religious liberty for all, we have staked our entire national destiny on the belief that we not only can get by without it, but we ought to abolish it entirely. Yet what if we were to fail to uphold Solon's first commandment? The danger to society would be clear--indeed, doesn't this commandment speak to the heart of what makes or breaks a democratic society? Isn't it absolutely fundamental that we not trust the promises of politicians and flatterers, but elect our leaders and choose our friends instead by taking the trouble to evaluate the goodness of their character? This, then, can truly be said to be an ideal that is fundamental to modern moral and political thought.

Now, two of the commandments of Solon are almost identical to those advocated by Moses: do not speak falsely, and have regard for your parents. Of course, Solon does not restrict his first injunction to false accusations or testimony against others, as Moses does. Solon's commandment is more profound and thus more fundamental, and is properly qualified by the other commandments in just the way we believe is appropriate--for Solon's rules allow one to lie if doing so is a good deed (no such prescription to do good appears in the Ten Commandments of Moses). And whereas Moses calls us to honor our parents (in the Hebrew, from kabed, "to honor, to glorify"), Solon's choice of words is more appropriate--he only asks us to treat our parents in a respectful way (in the Greek, from aideomai, "to show a sense of regard for, to have compassion upon"), which we can do even if we disobey or oppose them, and even if we disapprove of their character and thus have no grounds to honor them.

In contrast with Moses, Solon wastes no words with legalisms--he sums up everything in three words: do good things. This is an essential moral principle, lacking from the commands of Moses, which allows one to qualify all the others. And instead of simply commanding us to follow rules, Solon's commandments involve significant social and political advice: temper our readiness to rebel and to do our own thing (which Solon does not prohibit) by learning first how to follow others; take care when making friends, and stick by them; always give good advice--don't just say what people want to hear; shun bad people. It can be said without doubt that this advice is exactly what we need in order to be successful and secure--as individuals, as communities, and even as a nation. The ideals represented by these commandments really do rest at the foundation of modern American morality and society, and would be far more useful for school children whose greatest dangers are peer influence, rashness and naivete.

*******************

There is but one that might give a secularist pause: Solon's commandment to honor the gods (in the Greek, timaô, "to honor, to revere, to pay due regard"). Yet when we compare it to the similar First Three Commandments of Moses, we see how much more Solon's single religious commandment can be made to suit our society and our civic ideals: it does not have to restrict religious freedom, for it does not demand that we believe in anyone's god or follow anyone's religious rules. It remains in the appropriate plural. Solon asks us to give the plethora of gods the regard that they are due, and we can say that some gods are not due much--such as the racist gods and gods of hellfire. In the end, it is good to be respectful of the gods of others, which we can do even if we are criticizing them, even if we disbelieve in them. This would remain true to our most prized American ethic of religious liberty and civility. Though it might better be rendered now, "Respect the religions of others," there is something fitting in admitting that there are many gods, the many that people invent and hope for.

It is clear then, that if anyone's commandments ought to be posted on school and courthouse walls, it should be Solon's. He has more right as the founder of our civic ideals, and as a more profound and almost modern moral thinker. His commandments are more befitting our civil society, more representative of what we really believe and what we cherish in our laws and economy. And indeed, in the end, they are essentially secular. Is it an accident that when Solon's ideals reigned, there grew democracies and civil rights, and ideals we now consider fundamental to modern Western society, yet when the ideals of Moses replaced them, we had a thousand years of oppression, darkness, and tyranny? Is it coincidence that when the ideals of Moses were replaced with those of Solon, when men decided to fight and die not for the Ten Commandments but for the resurrection of Athenian civil society, we ended up with the great Democratic Revolutions and the social and legal structures that we now take for granted as the height and glory of human achievement and moral goodness? I think we owe our thanks to Solon. Moses did nothing for us--his laws were neither original nor significant in comparison. When people cry for the hanging of the Ten Commandments of Moses on school and court walls, I am astonished. Solon's Ten Commandments have far more right to hang in those places than those of Moses. The Athenian's Commandments are far more noble and profound, and far more appropriate to a free society. Who would have guessed this of a pagan? Maybe everyone of sense.


http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/carrier2.html
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Honor the gods" could also be interpreted
as extending respect to all people who have a belief system, no matter how nutty that belief system looks when you compare it to your own innately superior and logical belief system.

Solon's commandments are superior to the ones Moses brought down from the mountain if only because they are more inclusive, less exclusive to one specific monotheism. They are also guidelines, not absolutes. "Thou shalt NOT" is negative. Solon is positive.

Don't expect the adherents of that particular monotheism to embrace them, though.
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Those are 10 commandmants that I can live with

And pretty much try to do already.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. i disagree that the 1st amendent contravenes the 1st commandment
it's not exactly the case that the 1st amendment's declaration of religious liberty is at odds with moses's 1st commandment.

the 1st amendment merely says that CONGRESS has no role in it. that doesn't mean that society can't find other ways to cohere around the one true god. and in fact, society arguably HAS found ways to do that, which in fact may have been benefitted by the exclusion of congress from religion's turf. for one thing, it's made it far easier to gloss over parochial differences, so that society can broadly accept such technical constitutional trespasses as "in god we trust" and "one nation, under god".

most atheists and agnostics will tell you that they are more marginalized than any particular sect of first commandment observers.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
4. And it only took me five minutes to think them up...
Though the Athenian Constitution took me a couple of weeks at least, its been a while. ;)
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Quite an accomplishment.
A living document, it could have been written yesterday.

I hate that people don't know who Solon was.

I was informed last year that christians invented democracy.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. That's a pretty decent list overall
I still wouldn't advocate for it to be emblazoned on a monument in a public square though.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't see the Commandments in the Bible as outdated
BMUS, the "Ten Commandments of Solon" are great commandments and it would be great if people subscribed to them.

But I think the commandments in the Bible are pretty current for those who subscribe to ethical monotheism, which is what Judaism is about. Ethical monotheism teaches that there is a God who sets standards for proper behavior and people are judged on their conduct rather than what they believe. Keeping in mind that judaism emphasizes deed over creed, the commandments from the Bible are part of a bigger guide to living an ethical life:


1. Belief in one God
People can struggle with the existence of a God (since it is unprovable) but positing the existence of God is essential in ethical monotheism. It is obvious that without this notion there is no ethical monotheism.

2. Prohibition of Improper Worship
This goes with the previous

3. Prohibition of Oaths
This includes prohibitions against perjury, breaking or delaying the performance of vows or promises, speaking in God's name, and killing in God's name.

4. Shabbat
Day to turn yourself off from the work week and the world to dedicate this 24 hour period exclusively to your family.

5. Respect for Parents and Teachers

6. Prohibition of Murder

7. Prohibition of Adultery

8. Prohibition of Theft

9. Prohibition of False Witness

10. Prohibition of Coveting


Commandment 1 and 2 are dependent on belief or whether you subscribe to the idea of ethical monotheism but the rest is pretty much common sense to me.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The First Two, Sir
Edited on Fri Jun-30-06 08:54 PM by The Magistrate
Conflict absolutely with freedom of conscience, and that is a concept that does not really seem to have existed in the time and place when sundry priests compiled this list.

The old Greek has the best of this comparison by far.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Perhaps
"Conflict absolutely with freedom of conscience, and that is a concept that does not really seem to have existed in the time and place when sundry priests compiled this list."

Being forced to believe in God. Sure, I agree with you that it conflicts with freedom of conscience.

As far as freedom of conscience existing at the time maybe it didn't exist. Maybe it did. I don't know. But the Hebrew Bible (AKA Old Testament), in its original Hebrew, was written with the intention to be an instruction book on how to live an ethical life. The translations reduce it to a book of prophecies for the coming of a messiah.

These rules 1 and 2 (like the others) are elaborated in other ancient texts like the Mishna, Talmud, Midrash, etc. The Talmud even credits God with the following saying and I paraphrase (remember that these books are written with a lot of metaphors and are not to be taken literally): "I don't care if my children rejects Me as long as they follow my ethical commandments, because with good deeds they will eventually find me". With this idea, people find their spirituality with good deeds. Therefore faith is not all that important and people have the freedom to think or believe whatever they want.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. The Commentaries You Mention, Sir, Are Not That Ancient
Your statement that the document was intended to instruct in living an ethical life only is pure speculation, and does not find much support in the plain meaning of the text itself. It is also an exercise in begging the question, for it assumes an agreed upon definition of ethical life, and further assumes that your definition today of that is similar to the definition of it that would have been employed by the compilers of the document.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yeah, what he said.
:)

I understand what you're saying, but to someone who's been an atheist since birth, commandment numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, and 10 scare the hell out of me.

Too many people don't use the 10 commandments as a guide to ethical living, they believe they are God's laws and expect everyone else to abide by them.

Not stealing, lying or killing are pretty universal.

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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The commandments are misunderstood
The Ten Commandments (and the 613 commandments from the first 5 books in the Bible) were meant to be commandments for the Hebrews and not for the other nations. Non-Jews have no obligation to these laws. The problem is that a religious nut uses 1 and 2 to impose his/her religion on people and chooses to ignore the rest of the commandments. The reason to follow these commandments is for the subscriber to avoid unhappiness around herself/himself. If you avoid committing adultery, you avoid hurting your spouse. Number 10 helps you avoid feelings of discontent and resentment caused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another.

Numbers 1 and 2 are personal choices from life experience. People cannot be forced to believe in what is not provable to them. Number 3 is supposed to protect us from the George W Bush of the world who breaks this commandment by saying that God is on his side and approves his war. Number 4 is also personal. 5 is nice but there are limits to this (you can't honor a parent or a teacher who promotes immorality like racism, violence, any type of hatred, etc.) as explained in later texts.

If religious people chose to follow the ten commandments, like it is supposed to be followed, most would probably have no or little issues with them and this world would probably be a better place. :-)

These commandments are supposed to be self help not to be imposed. Too bad it is shoved down people's throats and misunderstood which makes me understand the rejection for the commandments in the Bible.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
12. I'm still good with the original 10
and don't have much trouble adhering to them. These are a great addendum, and I gotta admit, much harder to keep in place!
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