What happens when a teenager starts an atheist club at his high school

The following editorial was printed in the New York Times on June 21, 1999. Micah White is a senior at Grand Blanc High School in Michigan

As a high school junior in Michigan, I am very concerned with the national trend of blaming "godless teen-agers" for school violence. As an atheist, I feel I have endured persecution for my beliefs. I believe that the only outcome of any increase of religion in the schools would be an increase in anger directed against those students who are either not of the dominant religion or lack religion at all.

Last fall, I tried to form an atheist club in my high school as an alternative to a Bible study group that already existed. The school made it difficult for me to do so, saying I didn’t have a teacher-sponsor.

I threatened to sue the school with legal help from Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. Only then did the school say I could not be prevented from forming the club.

The reaction of some of my fellow students to the club was even worse. Immediately after I formed the group, a few of them seemed to take it upon themselves to intimidate me. Signs promoting the club were torn down, and people scribbled insults like "Burn in Hell" on them. Students would come to our meetings and yell, simply to be disruptive. And after the shootings at Columbine, a friend told me that a teacher told his class that my club was the same thing as the trench coat mafia.

http://www.citizensproject.org/watch/fw0999.htm

the conversation going. Do atheists really need a club? Is it that bad in American schools?

together? Wanting a club doesn't have to be in response to anything.

I see no purpose for a bible study group to exist at school

Yes it is. I was in high school just a few years ago. My non-Christian friends and I were treated like scum by other students. We were even made fun of by the security guy. Very few teachers cared enough about us to stand up for us if they saw something going on. When I was in middle school, I was told I needed to take off my Pentacle because it offended Christians, I imagine the same "Christians" who followed me down the hallway calling me a Satanist Dyke and throwing things at me. Of course I knew they couldn't make me take it off, and I kindly reminded them. But what really struck me was that it was my school counselor that told me that.

Atheists and non-Christians are treated pretty badly by other students, from my experience.

you should have guest speakers who are civil rights lawyers and such. That would be fair. And you could invite the idiots to the meeting as a lesson in how intolerance are against the law. Sorry for you.

Like I said, I was in high school a few years ago. Now I'm 21, and thanks to my treatment by others throughout my school years, I'm a liberal today. Sadly, most of my friends from those days aren't doing so well. Most of them are drunks and addicts today. Unfortunately they were treated just as badly at home, as was I.

That's why I feel there shouldn't be an issue with Atheists or other non-Christians forming clubs in schools. Many of them don't have support at home. I also don't have an issue with Christians having clubs. Kids need to have a safe place where they can relate to one another.

to be of any religion. That was a long time ago. In a different country. I was projecting my experience on you. Didn't know it was so bad. There were pressures at my high school - but none as bad as that that I knew of.

Yes.. it is too late for sorry.

The good news is that you will have no regrets. You were and are already older than the lot of them. But in time.. you can turn your awful experiences into power..like you already have.

or try to anyways... turning it into something positive.

I hope that my experiences and those of my friends aren't the norm- but I'm afraid they very well could be... especially with the religious right today! Iknow that my SO, having gone to different schools in a different state than I, went through very similar experiences. I can only hope that my former friends will someday have better lives, and the same for anyone else who has been put through that kind of constant negativity.

I hope I didn't come off as harsh, because that wasn't my intention. :hi:

DU's overwhelming vote of support on that issue? Oh yeah, it was in support of the FUCKING REST OF THE CLASS to REJECT THE RULE OF LAW and SHOVE THEIR MAJORITY RELIGION ON EVERYONE.

Another sad moment in DU history for religious freedom. But don't forget - we're scaring Christians from the party.

Freedom of speech is only for you and those with whom you agree, right trotsky?

I'm sure you would be just as upset and indignant if 200 atheist students chanted in protest at a commencement ceremony. Riiiight.

As a matter of fact, something does limit it. What was that again?

Oh, yeah...

Seperation of fucking church and state. Yeah, that's it.

Don't go spouting the crap about these kids freedom of speech being taking away. That is utter bullshit.

There is no "separation of church and state" clause. These kids had every right to pray out loud at their commencement - especially because it was apparently meant as a protest against a government edict seeking to impose a prior restraint on their speech.

The student prayer was not organized or sanctioned by the school, and thus you cannot argue with a straight face that the student prayer was a "law respecting an establishment of religion."

When you live in a diverse society, not everybody is going to think your way, Goblinmonger. You have no right to impose your atheist point of view on those 200 Kentucky high school students.

they have EVERY right to impose their point of view on everyone else, huh?

Do you understand why we have Constitutional rights, Zeb? They're to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

Not being a member of any significant minority group (I'm guessing), you probably have no idea why that's important. You just see it as infringing on your "right" to beat down anyone who doesn't hold a majority view.

Who is doing the "imposing"? The 200 h.s. kids are just reciting a prayer. They are not requiring anyone else to pray, or in any way "imposing" their religious beliefs on anyone else.

Meanwhile, look what this one malcontent kid was doing - or what the federal judge was doing. Imposing their POV on everyone else by silencing them and prohibiting them from praying.

You seem to think that if a person prays, she is imposing her POV on everyone else; whereas if a person is prohibited from praying, that is no imposition. I submit that you have it backwards, trotsky.

You're part of the majority. You really can't see this from anyone else's viewpoint, and that's sad.

The fact that you have to label the one individual as a "malcontent" says all I need to know about how you view others.

What the athiest kid opposed was a school sponsored prayer. To me, that opposition was appropriate. If you dispute that let me ask you this: Would you feel different if the prayer had been delivered by a known Satanist?

The point is that a school, as a publicly funded institution, should not be promoting any specific religion, nor imposing that religion on students who may not want to be a part of it.

Those 200 kids want a school with prayer? Then found a private religious school. You wouldn't be the first. But you won't get (nor deserve) one dime of my tax dollars.

The lawsuit was to stop a student-led prayer, not a "school sponsored and led prayer." The prayer was going to be led by a student chaplain who had been elected by his/her fellow students. The temporary restraining order purported to prohibit the student-led prayer.

This is the iron hand of government forcibly silencing citizens, and prescribing what they can and can't say. Not something I would think would find much support on a progressive message board.

What if the kids had elected Marilyn Manson to lead them in a prayer to Lucifer? Still feel the same? Or do you think the school should have stepped in were that the case?

Too ridiculous? Howabout an islamic student leading them in a muslim prayer, as a symbol that all people can live harmoniously? Good message for a departing senior class.

Howabout 4 of the students forming a Pagan circle, leading the class in prayers to the North, South, East and West? Oh, to keep it legal, when they burn herbs as the fire element they can use oregano, rather than pot. That should keep the story out of the news.

Students voted for it. Principal okays it. It goes in the graduation schedule and everything, just like everything else in the graduation ceremony.

Still approving of their "free choice?" Still think the schools single christian student will keep his trap shut and not shut down the will of the other students?

I would LOVE to see Marilyn perform at a graduation around here.

He could start with the Fight Song...:headbang:

I'm guessing a majority of the kids were white - so what would be wrong with them celebrating their white heritage, as the KKK and Aryan groups so delicately put their racism these days? By Zeb's logic, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! In fact, it would be the lone minority kid who sought NOT to have to endure such a thing who's guilty of the greater offense!

Do pagan's really smoke marijuana for their rituals? On topic, I agree with your arguement. If that school was anything but christian, everyone would be all up in arms about it. Christians don't seem to understand the concept of seperation of church and state in the simple fact that if our founding fathers never made that clause then a national religion would constantly change with the majority. It's better to keep religion private like porn, because everyone gets off to their own thing.

I think it depends on the group. The rituals also vary wildly from group to group as well. They can combine a variety of ideas. In my experience the four cardinal directions (N, S, E W) and/or 4 elements (Earth, Air, Fire, Water) are often represented. It's been a while, but I recall an event or two where the fire element smelled a bit wacky. No one was, shall we say, partaking, that I could see. So it wasn't being used the way that some say some Native American tribes use peyote.

(Then again, I'm a bit of a prude in some peoples eyes, so had that been going on I might have been amongst the last invited in.)

Now, back to topic. Yes, I agree than many Christians don't grok the fact that separation of Church and State actually PROTECTS them.

If I were a student, I wouldn't vote for a Luciferian chaplain, but if the Luciferian dude was elected by his class, so be it.

If you really mean that, then I guess we should just agree to disagree on the rest.

Wish you well.

"The very purpose of the Bill of Rights to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities ... One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote."

-- Justice Jackson, West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette (the Court held it was unconstitutional to force students to salute the flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance).

have no right to impose their views on the students that weren't Christian at a school sponsored event. Like it our not, a commencement IS a government sponsored event and those students were not participating in a spontaneous prayer. It was a violation of the constitutional rights of the students in the audience as well as a court order.

If a group of students, of any religion, started a prayer in my English classroom, I would be right to stop them. They are creating a disturbance (as they were at the commencement) and they are I, as an arm of the government, cannot let that happen.

These kids can have a baccelaureate and pray all they want for their well-being as they graduate. That is what those ceremonies are for. A general commencement at a public school in which there are diverse religious views is not the place for a Christian prayer. The court agreed. These kids were wrong in what they did, and, in my opinion, were quite unChristian in their activity.

In spite of what most of these crapola news articles reported, he never sought a ban on prayer. His petition was against official or clergy-led prayer, and rightly so as far as I'm concerned. So the believing students pushed back and turned it into a Jesus rally, as could be expected.

I'd like to see the judge's ruling and find out if he actually banned all prayer, as been reported.

The stench of contempt for the Constitution wafting up from the religious "liberals" was nauseating.

I would have more respect for them if they would just stop paying lip service to the constitutional separation of church and state and join the christians who will cast their vote for whatever bible thumping hypocrite the reich wing decides to install the next time.

With allies like that, who needs enemies?

I would certainly hate for my daughter to have to sit through that to get her diploma, and I'm a believer. That young lady certainly was NOT praying in my style, though, because it was a traditional Conservative Christian prayer IN PUBLIC forcing the TAXPAYERS to fund HER version of things. She was a BULLY (the one that prayed in front of everyone, that is). I don't even get to the narrow question of whether her "improptu" speech was constitutional (it would hinge upon whether or not it was deemed sponsored or encouraged by the school); the fact is that she knew that it would ruin the general ceremony for at least one person. I'm talking this all over with my daughter right now - you do not ruin things for someone just to please yourself. That's being a bully.

And, if they can have any other club, to support them, then I believe that an atheist should be able to form a club for atheist (for emotional support).

And a bully is EXACTLY what she is.

I can't even begin to imagine how the poor kid who had the guts to stand up for his rights must have felt.

I hope that young man goes to college somewhere far, far away from here and never looks back.

I know that some might not agree, but my child has always attended private schools that do not have religious rituals. We discuss various spiritual options AT HOME. And, no kid of mine is going to get up there at a general ceremony and bully/bore others with her personal spiritual beliefs. I agree with the poster who stated that should some kids want a religious ceremony, they should have it - somwhere else.

Take care!

You too. :hug:

In my experience, those are the same thing.

They do.

Niiiiiiiice.

:eyes:

It is indeed sad that you cannot create a club. Do you have adult sponsors who could just sort of "be around" to make sure there are no disruptions?

I would also suggest that you arm yourself with a few pertinant quotes (as a non-Christian I have found them to be very handy at times):

Judge not, lest you be judged

Love your neighbor as yourself (the second commandment of the two Jesus gave)

And to paraphrase: Worry about the beam in your own eye before you worry about the mote in your brother's eye (in other words, mind your own business)

Ask the fundies if they follow the teachings of Jesus, and then quote this to them-especially the second commandment. Tell them to go practice their teachings in peace-because otherwise, you'll wonder if they are really Christians or not.

Good luck.

..that grow in America.

The face of intolerance? The intolerant feel scared and get mean.

My high school had an atheist/agnostic club. Well, it was really for anyone, they called themselves FBI (Free Believe Individuals). The Christian club was CIA (Christians in Action). And we also had an Islamic club as well.

What was really interesting is that all three clubs would meet together and discuss various views on things.

I'm sorry that your school didn't react the way mine did.

BTW this is in Arlington, Texas, smack dab between Dallas & Ft. Worth.

That sounds like fun.

It had rules from the beginning. You could discuss something, but no telling anyone that they're stupid, ignorant, or just going to hell, etc.

Very progressive for a red city in a red state. :P

The post has been edited to reflect that.

Apologies to everyone

if discussing or studying (even worse worshipping) religion (or not) is allowed in public schools. Religion can only be approached as a cultural element in history classes. There is no separation of church and state without the profound insight that religion is a private matter and therefore must be kept out all public institutions. There is no separation of church and state if religious institutions can be subsidized by tax money. There is no separation of church and state if religious statements are made through national oaths or other endorsments of power.

separation of church and state in the USA is a myth.

I don't know that religion has to be a private matter--surely that's up to the particular person and the particular religion, is it not?.

But you're absolutely right that the separation of church and state is a myth in the US. Worse, the current propoganda catapults the notion that there never was any such separation, and that our fundamentalist founding fathers explicitly acknowledged the Christian God by referring to the "Creator" in the D of I.

He who controls the past...

I've been atheist since before I knew what the word meant, and I've endured the condescending indulgence of theists for decades. Any high school kid brave enough to declare his or her atheism should certainly be allowed a club, and he or she should get a medal besides.

There is no problem in society that religious fundamentalism won't make 100X worse. And the only thing more poisonous to the intellect than religious fundamentalism is...

Well, I can't think of it right now.

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I never had a problem with believers until College and that's where the shit hit the fan. My boarding school in England was very open minded about learning everything, but when I went to Baylor University I was in for the most close minded ignorant ride of my life. When I attended Baylor, "What Dreams May Come," with Robbin Williams just came out, and people I knew began to protest the movie because of the reincarnation at the end. My so called friends stopped talking to me simply because I went and saw a fictional movie. Even the topic of Evolution was a touchy subject at Baylor and being a biology major made it even more difficult. My Bio prof refused the facts and theories that I argued, when any credible scientist would concede to the facts that Evolution is a very strong theory. What I am getting at here, is that you are viewed as a growing threat to their beliefs. Everyday the increasing amount of facts puts more and more pressure on their faltering beliefs and polarizes them to an ever growing extent. Keep learning as much as you can about everything and remember that it is all connected. Don't let these kids intimidate you, because their ilk will be pulling this crap for the rest of our lives. Learn how to intelligently bat them off while remaining cool headed, and always hold yourself to a higher standard of logical discourse.

a Baptist University

did you expect it not to be filled with fundies?????





and that broad brush in your post title must get awful heavy?:shrug:

This is part of the on-going resistance to the RW take-over of the SoBapt Convention.

Wow. How wonderfully arrogant! Keep your passion, even if it is misguided. It goes all too quickly.

Though it might be a tad more difficult for me, because I go to a Catholic school. Although the funny thing is that the school I go to now is less religious by far then the public school I went to a couple of years back.

Uh oh. I guess he didn't get the memo.

No? Then he's not you, is he? See the belief thing is about people saying that a non-belief in god is a belief. Perhaps he is talking about the belief that SOCS (seperation of church and state) is a good thing? Something that you would probably be an a-SOCS about.

:) What do you think, should he get his club or no?

If the rules say clubs need a teacher/sponsor, and he didn't have one, then he's SOL. If he does get a teacher/sponsor, then by all means, he should be allowed to establish his club. It's hard to imagine what the club activities or discussions would be, but who cares? Let him waste his time proving his point.

Neutrality is best (He did get his club sans sponsor, though. In many places, throwing your lot in with atheists would be as popular as sponsoring a Young Bolsheviks club). But what's with the peevishness? The club's purpose and activities are described in the article and his "point" is that he wanted a club.

puzzling to imagine what kind of activities or discussions there could be on the topic of atheism. This is a club defined by what people don't believe in - not what they do believe in. It would be like if I established a society for people who don't believe in the existence of Leprechauns. What would we talk about?

First club member: "I don't believe in Leprechauns."

Second club member: "Me neither."

Third club member: "Ditto."

Fourth club member: "They don't exist at all."

First club member: "Right."

What kind of club is that? It seems pretty pointless.

Also, it is worthwhile to note, people DON'T set up clubs for Leprechaun-deniers. Because people who don't believe Leprechauns exist would have not reason to set up a club based on that premise. That makes me a bit suspicious about the motivation for setting up atheist clubs. If the members really don't believe God exists, why devote their spare time to denying the existence of a supposedly non-existent entity?

Please note that this is not a "separation of church and state" club. It is an atheist club - a club defined by a LACK of belief. It just doesn't make sense.

No leprechaun churches, no leprechaun politicians, leprechaun laws, politics, think tanks, activists, billboards, television, door-to-door proselytizers, buttinski leprechaun neighbors, coinage, national pledges, intelligent leprechaun design, have-you-met-the-leprechauns-yet families and friends, etc, etc, ET-cetera. If there were, I expect there would be a-leprechaun clubs.

The club's purpose is in the article. It's for defense of a minority view, moreso than advocacy. Imagine being a Christian in a Leprechaun world and watching the society around you react to Columbine as Christians astray from Leprechaunism. And worse, deciding to rectify the problem.

You make a good point.

Although, I think your analogy to a Christian minority in a Leprechaunist world is not exactly apt. That's because Christians do profess to have beliefs in something. So it would make sense for them to get together and worship. The same rationale does not apply to an atheist minority.

However, your first paragraph is pretty convincing.

Who is on the national committee which rubber stamps that THIS is a belief deserving of respect, and THAT is just a silly lark that should be stomped out of existance? How many people in the country have to be members to have their rights protected? 1 million? 1,000? Two hundred students? One?

YOU be the one to walk up to the kid and tell him his beliefs are crap. You tell his family that if they can't shut their kid up then they just shouldn't come to their sons High School graduation, because come hell or high water some of the other students gotta everyday a Sunday.

profess to have no beliefs. So the answer to your question about who decides who has beliefs and who doesn't is "the individual believers/nonbelievers."



Actually, you have it backwards. It was the atheist kid that was trying to shut people up. No one ever tried to shut the atheist student up.

but it's not meant to be in the sense that you take it. It's about banding together for mutual support and asserting rights. Any besieged minority is going to do that if the situation is bad enough. A Tone Deaf Club would seem pretty foolish if its only purpose was to say, "We're un-musical, Yay Us!" But if they were incessantly ostracized and put upon, a club would be a defensive reaction to their plight.

I understand.

About how it was like in school for me and my friends.

Kids need a safe place where they can relate to eachother and know someone supports them. We didn't have that.

My puzzlement about atheist clubs does not apply to you. You obviously have some belief, although apparently non-Christian. So it makes sense that you would want to congregate with other believers and discuss issues related to your religion. For atheists, though, I don't see the point. It seems that there wouldn't be that much for atheist kids to say to each other about their atheism.

Please note, however, that I said all along that I think atheist students should be allowed to have atheist school clubs. I just don't see why they would want to.

Well, in middle school I had some belief but by the end of high school I was an Atheist- some of my friends were Pagans like I was (Before turning Atheist) but some were Atheists too and were treated just as roughly. I see where you are coming from (now)- all I am saying is that it a club for them could be a way for them to support eachother... and if anyone is interested in learning from them, or supporting them, you know. They could attend, too.

I was once atheist myself. But when I was, religion just wasn't a part of my life. I didn't take it into consideration at all. All I was concerned with was the material world - not anything religious or supernatural. That's probably why I don't quite understand the desire to form an atheist club.

But I do understand your point now about having a supportive atmosphere, etc.

Sounds like he/they are getting some verbal friction. If my school experiences are any indication, if the school administration doesn't nip that in the bud, the the verbal friction will turn to hazing, ostracizing and then outright violence.

So, these athiests kids may want to practice debating techniques, and perhaps physical self defense.

club for young atheists and/or agnostics.

They need it to let off steam. I remember being incensed though at the one I once went to, as it was full of Roman Catholics! I mean believing ones! I can see the funny side of it now, but not then.

I thought Jesus' overall message was love, peace, and tolerance?