Eight Belles and Barbaro Both decendants of Native Dancer

At this moment you might be asking why would that be an issue. In the discussion about what happened at the Derby this weekend it was mentioned that both Eight Belles and Barbaro, and maybe the majority, if not all this years Derby contestants were decendants of Native Dancer. The only problem with this is that Native Dancer had problems with his lower legs. Both Eight Belles and Barbaro had to be put down due to lower leg injuries. It seems the real problem in horse racing that has to be dealt with is all the inbreeding. Other discussion about the Eight Belles incident have revealed that horses today breed about 100 times. In the past horses only bread about 50 times. In addition, it has been reported owners of horses are allowed to perform surgeries on their horse to correct imperfections, but are not forced to tell the person who they are breeding their horse with that the horse had imperfections.

Does anyone think this situation can be corrected without intervention from Congress? I support Congress stepping in and forcing horse racing to change some of their rules. I am not the biggest fan of Congress having a hand in everything. However, I think this is an issue Congress needs to deal with.

of Native Dancer why didn't some of the others breakdown? I'm all for a discussion about how durable the breed is but it's not as simple as one sire in the pedigree maybe 4th-5th generation back or farther.

Correctional surgery for conformational faults are a problem. Breeders should have to disclose this fact when their horse goes up for sale.

As for Eight Belles and the reason for her breakdown, so many things could have caused it. Microfractures. Crossfiring when she was galloping out. Genetics. Old undetected injury. I don't think anything congress could do would help the situation.

*on edit* I'd also like to add that Congress would get all their information from the lobbyists of the big breeding operations. And those guys do not want to change the rules. What could help, maybe, is an effort by concerned fans to put the pressure on the industry and make them change. I know we can't keep going like we are.

He was voted two year old champ and Horse of the Year.
He broke his maiden in his first start in April of '52. Then he ran
in and won only stakes. He set a world record for 6 1/2 furlongs.


The only race he lost was the KY Derby by a nose to Dark Star.
After that he won every race he ran as a three year old including
the Travers.

Then he raced a few times at four and won those too.

His race record was 22 starts, 21 wins, once second

His sire line has been responsible for 15 Derby winners - hardly
a source of unsoundness in the breed.

entail inbreeding..leads to tragedies like this and also since no new gene pool is being introdcued the horses aren't getting stronger or faster...they're not evolving.

Apparantly if you look at the statistics, the injury rate has been very consistant over the last 40 years or so (I think I heard 1.2 fatalities per every 1,000 race or so). I'd be interested to see the injury rate stats for other countries since I have heard that some of their racing stock is not quite so inbred.

but, I'm not so sure anymore. I've come to the conclusion that our TB are less durable today because of the way the breeding industry has changed. 40 yrs ago most people bred horses to race. They had an interest in producing sound horses. Now they breed to sell. It's not about sound horses it's about early speed and fashionable sires. A lot of those fashionable sires were very fast but very unsound young horses that are retired early, after injury, and go on to produce fast unsound horses. Mr. Prospector and his progeny jump into my mind right off. I don't worry about 'inbreeding' really, but if your interested you could checkout "Racehorse Breeding Theories" by Frank Mitchell, Ph.D.

Another thing I wonder about is medications. Equine medicine has made great strides in the last 40 yrs but, has it really made our horses better? Or has it just allowed horses that are not basically sound to compete and then move on to the breeding shed?

some studies have shown a breakdown fatality rate of 1.47/1000 starts on synthetic tracks in the US and 2.03/1000 on dirt. (http://www.buffalonews.com/135/story/339377.html)

i think the medication/doping issue is a good one to look into, the US allows way too many 'medications' on race day, it allows horses to perform better then their genetics say they should (especially anti-bleeding drugs) in the UK and Japan, for instance, no medications are allowed on race day at all.

as for breeding, of course inbreeding causes problems, look at 'purebred' dogs. they just have more generations.

95% of all male thoroghbreds are direct descendants of the Darley Arabian (b.1700) the other 5% are split between the Byerly Turk and Godolphin Arabian. (they use the Y chromosome) and virtually all can be traced back to 26 dames.

and you can go on two more generations, there are four lines of thoroughbreds, Herod, Matchem, Eclipse, Highflyer. all are at least cousins.

and your right: Lasix is used way too much. And not just on bleeders. You look at a PP today and it'll be hard to find a horse that doesn't have a 'L' by his/her name in jurisdictions that allow it.

Polytrack was racings knee jerk reaction to public breakdowns. It was the industry's
way of say, "Look, we are changing, please don't hate us." But in my opinion as a lifelong
member of the racing community, it is further catering to the unsound horses. It may
be easier on their bones but it has been shown to pull suspensory ligaments and tendons and lead
to hind leg fractures instead of front leg fractures. There are also vet reports of horses
with increased pelvic fractures. I'd rather have an old fashioned cannon bone or bucked
shin problem than a injury to the horses engine any day.

The artificial surface caters to the members of the horse population that are not worth
much on dirt as evidenced by the fact that Adriano and Monba who both won graded stakes
on polytrack before the derby finished last and next to last on the dirt.

If you want to breed a sounder animal, you do not start having contests for the least
talented members of the breed and then whisk them off to stud.

polytrack is safer for today's horses, but maybe they should only run on poly? you can have dirt specialists and poly specialists?

let's start with banning drugs, and we'll go from there. Dutrow has been suspended three times in the past four years for doping, so he's not helping.

I think they're a convenient deflection, exactly as you described. I remember the early '70s when artificial turf was similarly hyped for football, as a dependable and even all-weather surface that actually would prevent injuries. That's how you got nonsense like stadiums in warm weather climates installing it, like the Orange Bowl and Florida Field. It took decades before Field Turf was created, similar benefit of artificial turf in terms of care but playing characteristics and injury level akin to grass. I think that's where horse racing is now, installing flawed surfaces that will probably be derided as premature garbage a few decades from now.

How can those surfaces be a benefit when they blatantly sway the way races are run, and therefore alter the outcome? Instead of an even trip with frontunners and closers settling into their natural preference, you get asinine track bias that turns into cavalry charge over the final quarter. I lost all faith in synthetic surfaces last April when Street Sense's final Derby prep turned into a 6 furlong crawl, something like 1:16, followed by a meaningless dash to the finish, allowing horses with markedly different levels of ability to hit the wire in blanket finish. It reminds me of those Olympic cycling events with both riders weaving around and looking over their shoulder for the bulk of the race, until frantically peddling the final lap or two.

I don't claim to know much about inbreeding or any of the specific lineage. But I do know I'm not impressed by after the fact hysteria. If Eight Belles, or any colt/filly with similar pedigree, were vulnerable to breaking down it should have been a prominent theme throughout her career, not beginning a half hour after her death.

Also, when you're dealing with a tiny sample size like this, any brief high profile uptick has potential for severe deviation from reality. It reminds me of hurricanes in South Florida, or Florida in general. I grew up in Miami and hurricanes were anything but a constant worry. It had been decades since a major one and my family left on 3 month summer trips every year without slightest concern our home could be impacted while we were gone. That continued until Andrew in '92. Then a few years ago a mid summer wave of events, and suddenly I was reading on DU and elsewhere that Florida is nothing but hurricane alley, incredible that anyone could choose to live there.

Horse racing just experienced 2 hurricanes in 3 years. That's the way I look at it. I deal in statistics in my job and distributions are anything but even.

Hambletonian and he from the Thouroughbred, Messenger, yet we are not seeing the problems with horses our cousins in the TB business are seeing. We inbreed, our trotters are very inbred. 3x3 inbred. Breeding in the SB business is not as lucrative as the TB business and we race our stallion prospects longer and hence our stallions seem to be sounder and pass on that soundness to their get.

*on edit* I should add that in the last couple of years it has become financially advantageous for breeders to purchase part of a young SB racing prospect and retire him after his 3YO season. No doubt in my mind that at some point in the future we will be experiencing a rash of unsound horses.

I didn't mean to imply that careful inbreeding was the problem. the problem is inbreeding for certain characteristics that may not be in the horse's best interest, and then not waiting to see if those problems develop before breeding on. Look at Hip Dysplasia in Golden Retrievers. puppies that show signs of developing the problem, no matter their other qualities, are now routinely sterilized and sold as pets in an effort to reduce the genetic impact.

maybe you can explain the 'tail-male' and 'tail-female' bloodline issue better than I?

tail-female. I assume you know what it means to descend by tail-male to a certain stallion. And how X-factor hearts are passed along by sires to daughters, but not sons and from dams to both sons and daughters. OK. Seattle Slew was descended through tail-male to Bold Ruler but he carried the War Admiral X-factor heart which he inherited from his dam side.(My Charmer-Fair Charmer-Jet Action-Busher-War Admiral). Is that what you wanted?

I thought since you are a breeder, you could explain it better than me. Tail-male implies direct male lineage, right? All stallions?

sire's sire's sire and the bottom line on the pedigree for tail-female. That will take you to what is called a foundation mare.

I've enjoyed myself today. I usually only get to talk about stuff like this at the Standardbred Breeders Association meetings. As a progressive Democrat I don't really have a lot of friends there.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/seattle+slew

http://www.pedigreequery.com/eight+belles

thanks for the free education, there are always people around willing to chat about odd things in this forum.

I love the people here.

I'm gonna be bugging you on your football threads.

UP CELTIC! On ya go bhoys!

you can join myself and RedQueen (who has an unfortunate Arsenal problem, we're trying to take care of that, though) as the only regulars!

Native Dancer himself was a really nice horse and sired a lot of really nice horses. The problem may be the fact that he appears THREE times in Eight Belles' dam's pedigree and at least One more time behind her sire. With that much linebreeding (inbreeding) not only are the good characteristics doubled up on but the bad characteristics are also.

Unbridled's Song (her sire) also had lower leg problems and actually retired from a stress fracture in the coffin bone (his SECOND stress fracture) after being plagued with hoof problems. Yes, he has sired a lot of very nice horses, but I question the linebreeding in horses (the same applies in the cat fancy and dog breeding). There have been similar issues in the QH breed and the Impressive lines (all that linebreeding and inbreeding) and now many "really nice" horses are afflicted with HYPP and carriers of HYPP. People can manage to screw up really nice animals by overdoing a good thing.

Or any other horse in her pedigree?

In the early days of the 20th century Domino sons and grandsons were bred to Domino mares. That's about as inbred as you can get yet the Domino line survived to the present day. I'm not gonna tell you that inbreeding is always good. Sometimes it doesn't work out but, I really think that the problem today lies with the fact that we are breeding for sale and early speed and not for soundness. We've got a lot of sires that were brilliant as 2YO's but weren't sound that have moved on to the breeding shed.

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2008/sites/kentuckyderby.com/files/pedigree_eightbelles.pdf

Mr. Prospector's in her pedigree and she descends through tail-female to La Troienne but I'm not sure what that means.

and was a direct ancestor of two other horses recently put down for foot problems...of course, Unbridled's Song also had foot issues, but those were believed to be self inflicted (he kicked himself).

and he himself raced at 2,3 and 4. But, I really don't know how much of Native Dancer's genes are being expressed in horses with him in the pedigree 4 or 5 generations back. With the crap shoot of genetics I'm not gonna say Native Dancer made the breed unsound. You breed the best to the best and hope for the best.

Unbridled's Song had Native Dancer in his pedigree...that is my point. Multiple crossings to multiple leg problems. Breeders are trying to breed these great big horses with big "hearts" that mature really young without concern for the quality of their bone or soundness. That and the fact they start working them too young and too aggressively. How many race horses can keep up the pace after 3? And in reality, their legs are not mature until 4 or more. It's all about the money$. I think it is a combination of several factors...bad leg bone genes, too young and people taking advantage of the fact that you can beat a horse to run its own legs off. Then if you add some medication to the mix it even exacerbates the whole downward spiral. And a beautiful gentle creature suffered the consequences while the elite drank their mint juleps.

but, I'm sure you know the best way to give a horse strong bones is exercise when they are young and after their knees close up working them is not gonna damage them. Listen, our stable has never had much success with 2YO's. We've always stopped with them and let them grow up a little but that doesn't mean some 2YO's aren't able to race. We've just stopped trying to race them. They are still in training until summer when we give them a break. Not many 2YO's actually race. The racing secretaries don't write that many races for 2YO TB's. And I see no reason for not trying to breed for the X-factor heart. That would seem to me to be a characteristic we would want to propagate.

But as for 'beating horses, elites with mint juleps'... if you got a beef with horse racing: fine. Say so.

And by the way; Ruffian brokedown in the middle of her race not the end. And Eight Belles brokedown after her race in the gallop out.

The medications, surfaces, and breeding. I spent a summer riding a retired racehorse and his owner gave me a copy of his complete bloodline. Awful lot of big names (Count Fleet, Secretariat, Man O' War) in it. Which makes me think about the fact that yeah, there is a whole lot of inbreeding in this country..As someone says..Dogs have it to. The problem is a purebreed dog that has a serious genetic flaw is NEVER bred if it is known..Horse breeders need to do the same thing.

it's not just one thing. There is no quick fix to prevent breakdowns. It wish it was as simple as outcrossing Native Dancer in pedigrees.

Something else I think people should remember about Eight Belles: She broke both her ankles, at the same time, after the race in the gallop out. I've never heard of anything like that before. I don't know how anyone can even explain how that happened let alone try to prevent another breakdown like that.

I believe I read, in one of the many articles last Sunday, that polytrack has fewer injuries than bare dirt.

Inbreeding and breeding for single traits is a factor. Put today's TBs up next to those bred 50 years ago, and you'll find that the older horses had heavier bone and larger hooves to bear punishing physical challenge.

Medications are a factor. How many horses race today with Lasix? If Lasix was banned, the successful horses would be those who were physically capable of racing without bleeding. They'd be the ones breeding up the next generations of tbs.

Many competitive horse events, not just racing, start them too young and retire them too early for the soundness of the breed. The idea is that they only have to last long enough to win something, and they can spend the rest of their lives at stud or in the broodmare band, sound or not.

but two catastrophic injuries in six triple crown races makes it appear that is has gone up. I think Randy Moss (not the Patriots guy) made the best point that North America is the only place where they allow prerace medications. He says they mask the injury and pain for the horses which can cause further and more serious injuries.

last Sunday that said European horses break down less frequently. Something about running on mostly turf, which is a more forgiving surface, and running longer races, where stamina is a bigger factor than outright speed.

I don't remember where I read it; just one of the many articles discussing the derby tragedy. I don't know how accurate that is. I don't know much about racing outside of the U.S..

By the way, so were Ruffian and Go for Wand who also broke down a the end of races.

Ruffian broke down in the first quarter mile and Go For Wand broke down at the eight pole.

Most of the sound, tough horses still running around are descended from him too.

The thought that two horses descended from a common ancestor many generations
back are unsound solely because of that ancestor are nuts.

Native Dancer is so far removed from relevance in these pedigrees I would look somewhere
closer up for the scape goat for these unfortunate horses.

From DRF:
Preliminary results from the necropsy on Eight Belles showed that the filly did not have heart failure or an aneurysm before breaking down in Saturday's Kentucky Derby, according to her owner, Rick Porter of Fox Hill Farms.

Eight Belles finished second behind Big Brown in the race but was euthanized after suffering condylar fractures in both front ankles as she galloped out.

Kentucky state stewards and state veterinarian Dr. Leif Nichols ordered the necropsy, the term for an autopsy performed on animals, and the procedure took place at the Livestock Disease Diagnostic Center in Lexington. Porter was unsure what day the necropsy took place.

A full report from the necropsy is expected to take at least two weeks. Eight Belles has been cremated, but Porter has not yet decided on an interment site.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/94324.html

One of the things that gets me angriest has been the inane and completely unjust accusations toward Eight Belles' jock, as if he surely knew she was injured before the finish line. (I really question if PETA even watched the race or understands race horses running.) Saez did nothing wrong in my book. Eight Belles was running strong with ears up as she crossed the finish line. Also, he did use the whip a few times down the stretch (this has been a point of criticism too), but that was in my eyes not excessive and to keep Eight Belles from lugging into the rail, as she's done before.

I wonder if Porter will bury her on the Churchill Downs infield.

PETA loves to jump in and give totally uninformed opinions as if they are the "experts" in everything animal related. Having had experience with thier idiocy elsewhere (I do drug research which involves animal experimentation) it doesn't surprise me.
Much like many ill informed people on this board they all seem to think they know all the facts from watching it on TV.
I was wondering about the whip issue..I hear PETA wants to ban them. While I think they are overused....Having had experience using a crop to keep a horse focused on what they are doing..I can't really agree with a ban. Curious to hear others opinions.
I am enjoying this FACTUAL and RATIONAL discussion of the issues involved here. Something not possible in any other forum.

Yesterday on the ny times blog someone had a link to this site: www.PETAkillsanimals.com
I never knew about this stuff. They are the ultimate in hypocracy.

I have ceased attempting to beat back the ignorance and overwrought hysteria
on the other forums. I sent you a PM last night mentioning that I appreciate
your efforts at rational, informed discussion in the other threads. I was away
for the weekend when it all happened but usually I take them head on too.
Good job.


In todays Daily Racing Form there was a short article about the Peta demonstration
yesterday in KY in front of the KY Racing Commission. It said there was about
a dozen PETA people there but they were outnumbered by racing supporters.

and have been sympathetic to a lot of PETA's positions and when I originally read PETA's demands for making racing safer I thought they where reasonable. Their demand for Polytrack, well... What can we really expect when that is what the leaders of our sport are telling the public we need? But, I would have welcomed a dialog with any animal rights group just to be proactive. I was wrong.

The way they are beating up on Gabe and Cowboy Jones now is just fucked up. Their anger is misplaced. They have attacked a couple of guys that are maybe the least of our problems. Some smart journalist is gonna take a look at Little Dickie Dutrow in the wake of this tragic Derby and it ain't gonna be good. Dutrow's gonna be the face of Horse Racing and how will we ever defend that? Some one mentioned to me that racing needs some leaders. The person was so right.

I recently said that PETA's online petition was reasonable in another thread. I recant.

glory to the successful and blame to the unlucky.

What's amazing to me is that people are focusing on the extreme upper levels of the sport, where the money is insane. Having a million bucks standing around on four legs is a heck of an incentive to take care of the beastie, right? You don't parallel park your lamborghini, right? You keep that shit in the garage. Once a trainer or jockey gets a reputation for not treating his/her owner's investment well, they will lose the custom of both the investment people and the horse-lovers.

I have to admit though, I've gotten so annoyed with the crap in other forums that I put several of the worst offenders on ignore. They seem so proud of their judgemental assholery.

check out this story:

WSJ:
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120994417837766223.html

Even the breeder aknowledges there are issues with soundness in the line.

They are an organization hellbent on squandering whatever public credibility they accumulated during the Mickael Vick saga.

this year? Got any loaded guns in the barn?

We just brought the Lindy Lane gelding (Maumee Lane) back to racing after a 21-month layoff - He was 8th last Sunday at Hoosier Park - the driver said he couldn't get a hold of the track. He stayed flat - so he's not on the steward's list - but it might be back to the drawing board.

Our Pegasus Spur filly (Sister Kathy) is now three and will make her first start of the year at Hoosier on Friday.

We sold the Chip Chip Hooray (Discover Gold) filly over the winter. She won at Harrington last week for her new owners.

You running at Raceway soon?

finished 2nd two weeks in a row with a green 3YO colt. We come back for the next start and we got the rail. Just before the gate is away he steps in a hole on the track and goes down. Busted his lip. Sent Donnie Currier flying. Curly's alright though. I'm glad he's a tough-ass Standardbred. To hell with Raceway we're at Hazel Park now. He finished 3rd last Friday beaten 1T.

I'll look for Kathy this Friday. We're in at Hazel. In the 12th frickin' race.

That thought's crossed my mind a time or two.

Once, one of our horses was DQ'ed for going inside the pylons in the homestretch. The problem? The horse trotted in a straight line, but the pylons were lined up in zig-zag fashion. I don't think I've ever seen my Dad get so mad at an official.

Our trainer is stabled at the Van Wert Fairgrounds - Hoosier's an easier trip for him than Raceway (thankfully).

They don't call them the three blind mice for nothing.

Boring was it? Blind as a bat so they made him the paddock judge checking tatoos. Bwahahaha! He and his whole family are the best people in the world. Chris and Otis train at the fairgrounds in Adrian where we do. That whole clan are some of the finest horsemen I've ever seen. And even with all the success Chris has had he's always the first one to give you a hand if you have troubles.

Christ, I'm gonna get in trouble for talking about the judges like this. Don't tell anybody at Raceway what I said!

...so you're safe. I believe this particular judge has been shipped off to some sort of purgatory.

Do they still race at Adrian?

they have made some major changes to the Fair Series and dropped a whole division series. They raced at Adrian last year but they weren't going to, the horseman had to beg to get some races there. Everything is a mess here this year. I'm not breeding anything this year and I think it's about time to throw in the towel. I'm tired and broke.

Are you saying that judge was sent to a place lower on the ladder than Raceway? How is that even possible? Well, I guess they could have shipped him up to Northville Downs.

Van Wert cancelled theirs last weekend due to lack of entries. Don't know how many guys are willing to fill up with $4.50/gal diesel to race for a flysheet.

Entries for the fairs around here actually stayed about the same as last year. But when it lets go in Ohio, it's going to go in a hurry.

and it's not exactly a good counter argument, in and of itself.

PETA should be going after the breeders and the structure of racing in America, not the jockey.

And PETA and every other instant expert on the racing business should get the facts straight
concerning the training and care of horse in our business before they attempt to change it.

It is mind boggling arrogance to believe you have the right to bend an entire industry to
your overwrought hysteria and lack of understanding of horse racing.

and needs to be federally regulated...severely.

what regulation would you have enacted to prevent a breakdown like we saw with Eight Belles?

but a top-down review and oversight of the industry would be helpful.

Sticking their heads in the sand, like ever racing fan is doing now, is not going to cut it.

All these racing fans better hope a horse doesn't break down at the Preakness or Belmont or there'll be hell to pay for this industry.

Making the changes you suggest..and obviously some changes are needed -has nothing to do with a FREAK accident like what happened with Eight Belles.
Oh and Congressional oversight? Are you kidding me? They can't even deal with the OBVIOUS and corrosive corruption in the Executive branch what makes you think they would make ANY difference in cleaning up horse racing?
Its not idiots like PETA that are going to accomplish anything . In fact PETA just makes things worse because of the distaste many otherwise concerned people have..Its knowledgable, concerned insiders like Old Broad who are going to be the ones to help clean it up.

defend itself against ignorant, self righteous zealots, then it doesn't deserve to continue.
But racing has been working on ways to make life better and healthier for horses for as long
as I have been it. Without the focus on the well being of the horse, there is no racing.

What needs to be changed, in my opinion, is for people to go back to breeding to race and
stop breeding to make a killing at the sales. The commercial market now drives the racing
engine instead of the other way around.

When they do away with all medication, racing will again witness the fittest, strongest
horse with the best immune system winning and going on to a life at stud. I have been in
it all my life and feel the commercial market, fueled by Arab, Japanese and European money
has not only made off with all our best bloodlines, but it has encouraged people to breed
less talented horses in the hopes of selling it to these big money operations.

Believe it or not, Magic Rat, the majority of us in this business do it out of a passion
for the horses.

I have had discussions about this with peta people in the past. It is not my way of doing
things to simply bash heads with those who are clueless about what they are talking about.
So I invited them to come to our barn, to come in the morning and in the afternoon on race
day and to come as often as they wanted. They took me up on my offer and they ended learning
that the majority of trainers are competent and knowledgeable about their work. We ended up
being friends and they came to the barn a lot to hang out and be with the horses. This did
not make them popular with their peta friends who insisted on holding onto their preconceived
notions about the evils of racing.

I feel is better to invite people in instead of shutting them out. But most of the people
now screaming for changes in racing haven't a fucking clue what they are talking about and
possess the difficult trait of being unwilling to learn anything positive about racing lest
it interfere with their firmly held misconceptions.


I have been in it since the sixties and will continue to improve it whenever and wherever I can,
but it will not be done due to threats from the utterly clueless.

I'm not one of those people who says they should do away with the sport or anything. And I'm by no means taking PETA's side that the jockey is in the wrong.

I agree with what you said, but I also think that the industry makes too much money to regulate itself. The problem isn't with the trainers, in so far as they care for the well-being of the horses.

The issue is the greedy owners and the breeders and the only way to control that is government oversight. Because with the millions upon millions at stake, it's not an industry capable of self-regulation.

ny times racing blog. Not the first entry, the one he posted today.


http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com

He talks about racing being a rudderless ship. But with people like him speaking
out the other mega buck breeders will have to come up with a plan, or else.

He says that each racing jurisdiction is like a little fiefdom with some nero like
character at its head, making change difficult. But it is not impossible and with
enough pressure from people inside the industry it will have to bite the bullet
or lose out completely.

There are many of us who have been in this business for decades who have witnessed
the changes over the years in the quality of the horses bred and the quality of bone.

I am a really opinionated person and have my own thoughts about what causes the bone
problems in TBs. Want to hear them? Oh, good.

1. Commercial market - already talked about that.

2. Soil. A horse is only as good as the soil it is raised on. With the ever increasing
loss of farmland there is less and less quality land for people to raise horses on.
And then there are the stupid state bred programs where you can breed and raise your
horse in NY, for instance, except the problem is NY is a mountainous, rocky kind
of land and it is not rich in the limestone minerals that puts good bone on them. The
NY breeders would ostracize me for saying this, but hey, we have had to train so many
fragile boned NY breds that I will not change my opinion on that. The only NY breds
that are very successful are the ones bred by smart people who foal them in NY, then
send the foal to FL or KY to be raised when it is weaned.
There are some states that have race horse programs that are best known for raising
peanuts or pine trees. What the hell.

3. Nutrition. I have been in the business so long I remember the days when sweet feed
didn't exist. The first trainers I ever worked for did not feed it. They fed oats,
a little barley, a little corn in winter and hay and water. They gave a little vitamin
supplement. We now have every processed kind of horse feed that you can imagine and I
hold the opinion that most of it is crap. One of the main ingredients in sweet feed is
mineral oil. Say what? Mineral oil leeches vitamins from the gut and is basically used
to hold the feed together.A great deal of scientific research has gone into the development
of horse feed, but Allan Jerkins, the great trainer always says to keep everything you
give a horse as close to nature as possible and that is what I do. I feed some sweet feed
but not a lot and I use a feed that comes from a place in North Dakota and is quality stuff.
I feed some vitamins and electrolytes because all horse placed in work need it, but I
don't overdo supplements.

4. Breaking youngsters. This is probably the single greatest misconception on the part
of those outside the business. They are convinced that we all break them as yearlings
and whip and drive the entire crop into the starting gate at two.
There have been probably decades of research into the best way to condition young race
horses and the verdict has been in for some time that the best way to strengthen bone
so that it withstands the faster pace of racing, is to slowly and intelligently stress
the bone when it is young. This does not mean the yearling and young two year old is
breezed (except for the poor bastards that go through the sales), it means that they
are gradually galloped for longer distances until their bones are ready for a little
faster work. Then that faster work is given for very short distances and at some
spacing that works for that horse. Some two year olds just can't stand training, they
are too immature and need to either slow down and go back to galloping or be turned
out for a while until they can grow into themselves a bit.
It is a proven fact that the best way to produce a horse with bones like mush is
to leave it sit in a field and then start asking it to train as an older horse.
It will work for show horses, field hunters, warmbloods etc, but not race horses.
The key is to have the young horse with someone who is experienced and intuitive
enough to know when to go on and when to stop with the youngster.

5. Owners. Some people enter this business after being wildly successful in
some other endeavor in life. They think they can transfer a successful business
model from some other industry to racing. Racing involves living, breathing
animals who cannot fulfill their owners desires unless that owner learn the
most important trait of all successful horse people - patience. Without patience,
you have nothing in this business. Owners think that because they spent a ton
of money on a horse that it must be successful. When they get some horse needs
time to develop, they become upset and blame the trainer for not doing a better
job and getting the horse to the races right away. The case of the Breeders
Cup Classic winner St. Liam comes to mind. St. Liam was a very big, gangly
immature two and three year old. A guy named Tony Reinstedler trained him early
in his career. This horse was very talented, but just not ready to hit the triple
crown trail, so the owner took him away from Mr. Reinstedle and gave him to
Dutrow. As an older horse, St. Liam was practically unbeatable, but if it hadn't been
for Tony's patient handling as a two or three old, there would never have been a
St. Liam. Some owners are assholes. Some are true horseman and horsewoman. The
ones who end up going the distance in this business either learn to be a
horseman, or get out.

My head hurts. Let me know if there is anything you would like to know about the
racing world and I'll do my best to give you my obnoxious,totally biased, but usually fairly accurate thoughts.

do you think Big Brown can take the Preakness with only a 2-week rest and bad feet?

I don't like his trainer, but I have to admit that the horse is very talented.

I don't think his feet are a big a deal as others do. Those shoes he wears protect
his feet so well from concussion that as long as the glue holds up, I don't see where
they are a problem.


I don't see where any of the horses lined up for the preakness could warm him up.

But if Dutrow starts making some comments about the track condition at Pimlico or
not liking the idea of two weeks rest, I would watch out. He was totally confident
before the Derby. I'd like to see how he talks about the horse this week.

The field for the Preakness is really weak. I am hoping that racing is not so
desperate for a hero that they are going to hand the Triple Crown to BB without
any competition.

undefeated in three career starts.

Harlem Rocker is the macho uno colt.

I really like this horse. He seems like an improving colt.

I heard Pletcher wasn't sure he was gonna run him. He's a good solid pick.

I think Big Brown's feet are gonna be an issue. Dutrow ran him in front wraps in the Derby. Supposedly to keep him from burning. I don't know. I don't trust Little Dickie Dutrow one bit. The guy is a scumbag and needs to be run out of racing. And he can take his pal Bobby Frankel with him.

according to this bit in Blood-Horse:

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/article/45180.htm

I'm not sure I completely agree with him but I hope to god someone steps up and makes some changes.

I am LMAO at one of the commentors on his piece. He really took Arthur to task for Sunday Silence's 3YO campaign compared to Easy Goer. That was 1989 and the guy is still pissed that Sunday Silence beat Easy Goer in the BC Classic. Now that's a fan. Or maybe it was Dinny Phipps.

*on edit* Arthur Hancock III knows more about this business than I ever will and it is not my place to agree or disagree with anything he says.

I'll have to read them.

you can't honestly say this group of fans have their heads in the sand. And I think everyone here will agree that a breakdown in the Preakness or Belmont will put the industry behind the 8-ball. And be very tragic for the horse and connections. No one wants to see that happen.

But, this 'oversight of the industry' I'm just not so sure about. And I'll tell you why. Congress knows nothing about the horse business. They'll get all their information from the people in the industry that have the least incentive to change the rules. Look at Steroids and Baseball. Did the hearings really accomplish anything? Besides, government already oversees racing now and the problems aren't being addressed.

We need some leaders in the industry. We need those leaders to step up and tackle the issues ruining this sport. If it keeps going the way it is you are right, we will have have hell to pay. And Congress will hold hearings. And rules will be enacted that don't really change anything. But everyone will feel good that we've finally done something and that will be that. And everyone will look away until the next high profile breakdown and our fan base will keep getting smaller and smaller.

Man, I've loved Thoroughbreds since I was 10 yrs old and saw the great Riva Ridge on TV. I don't want to lose this sport. But it's gonna take real changes to save it. And the government is not gonna make any changes that matter.



*on edit* I had to add Riva's homely face to my post. He had mule ears but goddamn, he could fly.

From ESPN:
Thoroughbred racing may finally have its Triple Crown winner, but it's not what anyone wanted.

The convicted drug offenders have now swept racing's Holy Grail. First, Steve Asmussen's Curlin captured the 2007 Preakness, followed three weeks later by Todd Pletcher's Rags to Riches in the Belmont Stakes. Had you ran those two races in January of 2007, the classic-winning trainers would have been Scott Blasi and Anthony Sciametta. Why? Asmussen and Pletcher opened the year banned from training as they sat out suspensions for medication violations. And now comes the poster child for questionable-character trainers, Rick Dutrow, with his Kentucky Derby 134-winning Big Brown. Dutrow spent a good chunk of 2006 banned from the racetrack and his own barn, leaving the "official" training duties to assistant Juan Rodriguez.

The inmates officially are running the asylum.

Insular and insecure racing officials, fans and pundits cringe at the first mention of negativity toward the game, fearing bad publicity could push the teeter-totter that is horse racing completely off the public charts. When outside media-types make their annual cup-of-coffee visits to the racetrack and come away with negative stories, it's dismissed as salacious media coverage and people who don't get the game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=3384622

It's like "The All-Drug Olympics" skit on SNL only this ain't so funny.

Another conspiracy courtesy of the Serious Sports News Network

Horses attack jockeys with whips
Horses are beginning to strike back…

LOUISVILLE, KY — In a shocking display of intelligence and combativeness, a stable of horses at Churchill Downs in Kentucky attacked a group of jockeys with whips, scattering the diminutive riders all across the barn...

http://www.serioussportsnewsnetwork.com/2008/05/horses-attack-jockeys-with-whips.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?id=3387061

and he is one of the best commentators in the sport. He and Bailey are the only reason to watch ESPN's racing coverage.

Ted McClelland writing in Slate.

http://www.slate.com/id/2191503

If Big Brown goes on to win the Triple Crown, he may be retired to stud after a mere six races. It was once unthinkable to let such an inexperienced horse near a mare. As breeder Arthur Hancock III told the New York Times recently, his father, "Bull" Hancock, who ran the family's Claiborne Farm from 1957 to 1972, never employed stallions with fewer than 25 starts. But buyers at yearling sales are no longer interested in durability. They're looking for horses that will mature quickly, win the Derby, and allow them to cash in on stud fees. As a result, these wunderkind horses are passing on their genes, producing more and more Thoroughbreds designed for short, brilliant careers. Eight Belles, the filly destroyed after breaking down at the Kentucky Derby, was a granddaughter of Unbridled, who has a record of siring speedy but unsound horses.

There is a way to ensure that the priciest studs are also the most durable: stop restricting the Triple Crown races to 3-year-olds. Instead, open them up to horses of all ages. That would immediately eliminate lightly raced 3-year-old studs from the gene pool because it would be nearly impossible for 3-year-olds to win the Derby, the Preakness, or the Belmont. Horses don't reach their athletic peak until age 4 or 5. A few 3-year-olds have won the Breeders Cup Classic, an all-comers race held in October. But in May and June, when the Triple Crown races are held, 3-year-olds are too immature to beat older horses. The average winning Beyer speed figure in the Kentucky Derby is 109. Top older horses are capable of earning figures over 120....

The Kentucky Derby may be America's most prestigious race, but the age restriction means it's rarely won by the best horse. The colts who compete in Louisville, Ky., are on the same level as top college basketball players. But while the MVP of March Madness goes on to the NBA, the Derby winner is yanked from the track before he can fully develop his talents. When racing's biggest stars blossom and disappear in a single spring, it's hard for the sport to develop a crossover hero who can get his mug on the cover of Sports Illustrated, get his trainer on The Tonight Show, and pose for a bobblehead doll that winds up on the bedroom shelves of horse-crazy 'tweens.

When the Triple Crown was established, it marked the beginning of a great horse's career, not a career-capping achievement that guaranteed a priapic retirement. But since breeding fees have exploded, there may as well be an ovulating mare standing just past the wire at Belmont Park, ready to receive the seed of the latest immature sire. The breeders' desire for instant gratification is weakening the Thoroughbred. Either the equestrians who run racing should strip the Triple Crown of its title as racing's greatest achievement, or they should ensure that it can only be won by durable horses, with long careers. If farms continue producing foals as fragile as Eight Belles, public revulsion may end the Triple Crown—or horse racing itself.

Yeah, happens all the time. Meanwhile, some years pass with zero horses of any age reaching that number. When it does happen, often it's in sprint races of 7 furlongs or less, ones that can be wildly influenced by pace or track conditions. It hardly equates to a huge Beyer at Classic distance.

Ghostzapper had some phenomenal performances a few years ago. I know he posted some high Beyers, including at least one of 120+.

But are we really supposed to rely on a fragile horse like Ghostzapper to make the Derby, in any year? He had maybe 10 or 12 lifetime starts despite racing to at least age 5.

That's merely one of the problems with opening up the Derby to all comers. Obviously it loses prestige instantly, a Duane Thomas type of thing, next year and every year. "Here's the favorite, Exploding Penguin, who finished 12th in last year's Derby but he really bloomed at Calder over the winter." Wow, that's compelling, compared to one shot at immortality.

Why should Curlin be given another chance? Or Native Dancer, for that matter? It's a unique sport like college football where every result is critical. Just what we need, a Forego trying to win the Derby year after year. That's exactly what you'd have, geldings galore.

The entrance criteria would have to be changed dramatically, leading to all types of problems. No way it could be based on earnings since 3 year olds would be severely disadvantaged by definition. It would be a scramble with dozens of horses fighting for 20 berths.

And the natural prep races would be gone, since they are also restricted to 3 year olds. Focus on the Derby would be muddled and confusing, older horses showing up after going to Dubai, or wherever.

Of course, the primary point is the breeding realities wouldn't change. Stud fees don't depend on the Derby alone. In McClelland's fantasy world, the Derby becomes merely a glorified Breeders Cup Classic. In fact, there would be essentially no difference between those two races, other than the calendar. What's to prevent a late blooming 3 year old, like a Bernardini in '06 or Casino Drive this year, from winning the Breeders Cup then bailing out long before the following year's Derby? Nothing at all. At least in this setup the top young horses are indeed pointed to the Derby. And when there's a freakish 3 year old he is the best, and no one cares about the older crop.

If she thinks it was anything but overwhelming unlikelihood that Eight Belles would break down in the Derby, or any race, then she's a clueless evaluator.

Stories like that look cute at a time like this but we never hear about the fearful premonitions that whisk away in a sea of normalcy. And those are the vast, vast majority. When a Randy Moss emphasizes this is the biggest tragedy in the history of the Derby, and the race has been around since 1875, that tells you more than you need to know about the safety. A 20 horse field by definition has more opportunity for incident, along with a longer than normal race. It's actually remarkable there have been so few problems.

I remember as a kid thinking there could be a mass pileup in the Derby, like a foggy freeway chain reaction. God forbid, but if it happens sometime in my lifetime maybe I'll write that I had a premonition.

I'm surprised Nack has his name attached. I'm sure he didn't write the headline but the word predictable is so out of place it's remarkably asinine.

The point here is the massive influence of Raise a Native in Eight Belles pedigree set up the possibility as more likely than with another horse. I don't see Nack or Parker saying anything too alarmingly different from what others prominent in the industry have said about the shift in breeding that's made some unsound, precocious horses with speed early on at two and three on a rickety foundation.

Do you dispute what Nerud and Bramlage had to say in the article? They seem to confirm for me what's been going on in both racing and breeding for quite some time now.