I did an alert on two threads ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=75509&mesg_id=75509

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3359046

Let's see what happens - kinda surprised #1 has been around this long.

The other GD thread is now locked. They've left up some other homophobic post for over 4 hours though...

So much for your idea of debate.:eyes:

There's a big difference.

you debated, poorly, but nevertheless debated anyhow.

Please explain in actual real, cogent arguments why my thread is offensive and I'll ask to delete it myself.

One other sparring partner in my thread can't do that. and he's the only one out of 14 responding that is offended.

Let me guess...was it in GD? I think I know what you're talking about.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm trying to be more diligent in alerting after Skinner's examples of posts that have stayed simply because no one alerts.

its gone now though....

Thank you mods!

I wish this forum could be for only serious glbt-related posts that benefit our fight for equality, but it's not. Sometimes, lounge-like threads get in.

Top Gun certainly didn't seem a bit gay to me, so not sure I'm getting the point of the thread anyway. Naked men in a shower do not a gay film make. It's a fine line between yucking it up among ourselves and us insulting ourselves and perpetuating stereotypes. I'm not really sure where that one falls.

On the other hand, if the OP was not gay, I would have a VERY big problem with that thread. Maybe that's the issue. Since this forum is open to gay and non-gay people, it seems inappropriate.

And while I see your desire for this forum to be for serious issues only, I respectfully disagree. :hi:

I just gave you a confirmation, that's all.

Jeez! What's with all the short fuses here?:shrug:

I didn't find your thread offensive, because you are GAY.

Frankly, I like meegbear and was responding because I thought he might understand my perspective. I haven't posted to your thread because I think it's silly, and I don't understand what's gay about Top Gun. Pretty simple.

Not sure what you meant by the short fuse insult, I guess you're projecting. :shrug:

Your last line in the above post led me to wonder if you knew who I was. Otherwise I saw no use for it, especially with the gay and non-gay alike coming in here sentence.

"Did you not read my post at all?" came off as snotty and indignant to me, hence the short fuse remark. If that wasn't the case, then I apologize. I've gotten my fair share of reactionary posts Today in the Top Gun thread also.

It was a stupid movie and a silly post of mine. Next time I'll bring up a substance film like American Beauty or Crash, then it'll be serious. I never expected such outrage over it, albiet only by one or two people who are claiming to speak for everyone else. I don't think life has to be THIS serious all the time.

And...projecting? Let's just stop the tennis game now. :hug:

and I don't find your post offensive in the slightest. In fact, I positively DOTE on hot, sweaty men in speedos! :P

Army vet here too! :hug:

I don't visit the lounge, to me GLBT serves that need, when it is good. By good. I mean a balance of topics. I rarely alert and Don't use 'ignore'. Franky the OP 'got my attention' but I didn't take offense, that was a perfectly acceptable subject as far as I can see, only disappointed in not enough Tom Cruise jokes and innuendo. Lighten up everyone. be Gay!

The Top gun thread is just silly. Now I'm going to find a good "gay" movie like that that has a scene with hot, naked women in the shower. :bounce:

I found nothing to be offended about on #1, but then again I can actually sit down and enjoy QAF and Will and Grace without getting offended either, so I'm not a good arbiter

Ok. That thread did not offend me. But it gave me grief. I want to tell things that I'm not sure are really to be told. Not about Tom either...anyway, from where I sit, I say no offense, and hell yes Top Gun is, I'd say, rife with homoerotic over and undertones. And underwear. And stuff. Power ballads. Conflicting feelings but clear loyalties. I think the question from the thread in question has a self evident answer.

I have no idea what the deleted thread was all about (because, well, it was deleted, and now that we don't have to look at it anymore, I guess there's no more homophobia on DU! Woo Hoo!), but alerting on that stupid but harmless Top Gun thread???

God help us if this "new software" actually DOES allow just anyone to moderate DU. There'll be absolutely nothing left to read. Every post will be about the Osmonds. No, wait...Donny's purple socks will surely offend someone.

Here's an idea. Before alerting on a thread, stop and ask yourself: is this truly offensive, or does it only SEEM offensive to ME, because I've got a STEEL ROD up my ASS?

(Please note that my intent is not to attack anyone, but rather to get some of you to chillax. I don't want to get alerted on! It's my greatest fear!)

However, if I wanted that, I'd post on the Yahoo boards.

However, since that's not the system we have in place, I would suggest that people apply the alert button more judiciously. You can only cry "Wolf!" so many times before people just up and ignore you.

Honestly, I hate to make a blanket generalization, but anyone who found that Top Gun thread offensive doesn't belong on the internet.

seriously because of one example is just silly. It's a bell curve you know. Not everyone falls right in the middle. I'd venture to say you are at the other side of the spectrum than the OP here. Doesn't make either one of you right or wrong.

I've seen a lot of knee-jerk reactions in this forum and elsewhere on DU from gay folk in the admitedly short two years I've been posting here. I've probably even been guilty of some myself, at some point. I definitely understand how and why gay people get offended. And I'm not trying to say that people SHOULDN'T be offended. If you want to be offended, go ahead and be offended. This is still America, right? We're not all supposed to think the same. At least, theoretically.

However, I do think there's a line that's crossed when someone alerts on a thread, and I think more people need to think much more before they cross that line. As has been pointed out incessantly over the last week or so, there are very few mods for the high traffic this site carries. If I were a mod, and I had to investigate the Top Gun thread because someone alerted on it, I'd be FAR less responsive to alerts from the GLBT forum in the future.

It has to be a combination of politics, religion, manners and mores, economics, biography, and you-name-it. How many freaking categories and subgroups and sub-sub groups do the straights give themselves? We get one. Among other things, we don't have a designated Lounge. This place has to be that too. Where do they get off censoring what we talk about in our own place? I suppose they think that we're just f*cking lucky that they have condescended to even give us own place.

I think this forum should be for political discussion.

For the same reason that when i feel like hanging out with other gays I don't go to a straight lounge, no matter how gay friendly it might be. There is naturally plenty of political discussion here. What would be your point in limiting it to that?

...I think it's unfair of you to complain that "we" can't post anywhere else on DU "comfortably". There are dozens of forums on this website, and not one of them is labeled "Heterosexuals Only". You're entitled to your discomfort with them, but you can not speak for all of us. "We" are not confined to this "ghetto". I can, and do, post elsewhere when the spirit moves me, and I've never been told to get my gay ass back into GLBT where I belong.

GD-P and the state forums give ample opportunity to discuss politics. I've always felt this forum allowed for a wide range of GLBT related subjects from serious to silly. Yes, this forum is primarily political in nature but surely not limited to that subject.

Should we not discuss GLBT literature or movies? Gay culture? Our personal and professional lives? Was I out of line when I posted homosexual love poetry from Walt Whitman a few years ago? What about when I asked if anyone had ever been to a gay, nude campground? Many people responded to both threads. Were we all misusing the GLBT forum?

Where do you draw the line and why would you draw one at all? If you see a thread here that is clearly homophobic of course you alert. But if its simply a topic you find stupid, sleazy, tacky, obscene or generally not your cup of tea just "hide" it. Better yet, just don't look at it.

What purpose is served by limiting discussion to political topics?

maybe one of the great arbitrators of what should be posted in this forum can tell me

Hell, I once posted a thread here in GLBT titled "In praise of young men" which was borderline porn, and later another talking about gay nude camping. I thought pretty much any vaguely rational subject was okay here as long as someone was willing to respond.

I know the Lounge is supposed to be for threads like that but I really don't feel as comfortable posting there as I do here.

My basic objection was to refer to the movie as 'gay'. Had the author called it homo-erotic I don't think I would have had a problem. It probably is 'semantics' but in the era of Rove I think we're all aware of the power of words.

:shrug:

It sounded so childish I never bothered so I really shouldn't comment.

And is it a "gay" movie or a "gay movie". Uh...let me describe what I mean. A "gay" movie is something that someone doesn't like, so they use "gay" as an epithet. A "gay movie" would be, say, "Latter Days" or "Big Eden" which are both good movies (to me, anyway), but dealing with gay themes.

It's not something that I personally would have alerted on once discovering that the OP was gay themselves. It was slightly annoying, that's all.

I can't believe you guys. I was not particularly into that thread myself. But jeeze, loosen up. Who cares? Along with being everything else this is also our Lounge.

The discussions in this thread and in the linked thread make clear that even within the GLBT community there is disagreement on what is appropriate and what is not. The "Top Gun" thread was posted by a member who is gay, and many people in this thread and that thread did not consider the thread to be homophobic.

Ask yourself: Do you really want DU to be a place where we won't even let a gay member crack a joke about whether "Top Gun" is gay? Because that is where we are going.

After the events of last weekend, I feel as if I no longer have the moral authority to say "I don't think that poster meant any harm" in response to a post like that. I can be easily dismissed as a clueless straight guy, or worse, a gay-hater. At this point, my predisposition is to simply delete whatever anyone wants deleted so as to avoid being publicly painted as a homophobe (again).

I just don't think it is fair to start threads like this, testing if the moderators will do exactly what you want them to do. Even if we had a perfect enforcement record (and we don't) you are setting us up for failure. Eventually, the moderators *will* make a different decision from the one you would make, or they'll take too long, or they'll lose an alert altogether. And then they'll get painted as homophobes. Which would be a shame, because they aren't. They are very sensitive and they try very hard to do the right thing.

You must know that I've been around here for years, and have always been gay and out, and despite that, even I have been called a homophobe - ??? So no, it's not just you; it's just that there are individuals among the gay community who - due to abuse suffered over the course of a lifetime - are extra sensitive. Personally, I try to be accommodating because my head's been there too, but some people are still going to object to my thoughts which contradict how things "ought" to be. Just know that most of us know you're doing the best you can.

I still don't like the way the OP referred to it as 'gay' but obviously that is a point of debate which perhaps we can have in the coming days. A debate which I hope can be less personal and more on the issues. I'll try if TD will.

If I may though, I would like to make one point and that is, I hope we don't get to a point where it's ok for a gay DUer to say things that a straight DUer can't say. I don't think we should have two standards. I'll leave it at that.

Thanks for helping us see things from your perspective.

...without getting shit for it, too. It was completely innocuous, albeit a tad lame. But it did not imply in the slightest that homosexuality was "bad" or "wrong", or in any way negative.

Quite frankly, anyone who found anything truly offensive in that post is projecting their own issues with homosexuality onto the thread. And/or revealing, and reveling in, their utter humorlessness.

There's enough REAL homophobia going around without inventing some.

Thx.

I'd be glad to discuss why you thought that thread was offensive without insulting you, if you promise to be more tolerant of other's points of view.

If you're bound and determined to find homophobia, you're going to find it, whether it's really there or not. If you approach things with an open mind, your chance of seeing them for what they really are is far, far greater. Just because a straight poster uses the word "gay" in a sentence that doesn't start with "I'll never really understand the pain, but I'm so sorry for all the persecution you have to endure because you're", doesn't make them a homophobe. If Midlodemocrat or Tyler Durden or MuseRider had posted that Top Gun thing, would you be upset?

I could understand someone taking offense. Midlo or Tyler or Muserider, who are all clearly friends to us, would not be an issue. Do you not see how fine a line this is? I'm not looking for homophobia, but I can see how others can see it IF it is delivered by a non-gay person who may or may not be friendly and supportive.

Your tone with me is so condescending that it makes me want to drop the conversation right here. I've been gay a hell of a long time, and I have seen the most passive homophobia imaginable, so, yeah, I understand how some people can be offended when they don't know the source of something, and that something is trivializing them.

This is me at my most agreeable. Sorry (really!) if you're offended, but it doesn't get any better.

For the record, I can certainly see how someone COULD be offended by a straight person posting that Top Gun thing, but I respectfully submit that anyone who WOULD be offended is much too easily offended.

:) I also agree that perhaps being offended by that particular thread may be being a bit too sensitive. (Though I still understand it, since I've been known to be sensitive about things some others don't find offensive.)

:pals:

It's a difficult thing for us, too. Anyone can post something on a message board claiming to be gay, for one thing. There are many among us who have no problem with accusing other homosexuals of homophobia, many of us WERE homophobic before we came out and many of us still are, even after having come out, just in different ways.

There is certainly a phenomenon of gay people disagreeing vehemently on what constitutes damaging homophobia. I had to invent terms for the different kinds of homophobia I could see, *acute* homophobia, meaning actual dislike and distrust of homosexuality and *sub* homophobia, the kind where everyone persistently jokes "with" you cos they're so "cool with it" about asses, anal penetration, how much of a "queen" you are and so on, to the exclusion, pretty much, of any other kind of conversation. You get to the stage fairly quickly in the second case where you have to think "this guy's even more interested with what I do with my dick in my spare time than I am" and it gets you wondering, I hope you understand why.

TBH, I swither on cases of "sub" homophobia. It's not malicious, and that makes it difficult to justify calling people out on it. It's just that it's really annoying and sometimes really *embarassing*. I don't necessarily WANT to talk about my ass all the time, sometimes I want to talk about gardening or how the weather is (attempts to discuss these actual subjects with people who know I'm gay have recently resulted in people saying "Oh, you're so gay, that's such a gay thing (WTF? What's gay about weather and gardening???)) and it's like they can't hear a word I say.

Unfortunately, me old chum, and this is not your fault, if you allow ALL "sub" homophobia (there really ought to be a better term, it's not really "phobic" as such (I hope, and, um, am prepared to believe)) then eventually it starts to degrade and become actually insulting and rude. I've first hand experience of this.

I have to confess I'm a bit of a hypocrite, as I play up to the "queen" thing riotously on occasion, I really enjoy doing it when its actually FUNNY, but it's a persona I adopt, not the be-all and end-all off my immortal soul, or something...

So, I guess it's like black people using the n-word. Some black people don't think it's right at all, some black people think you take the power out of the word by trivialising its use (but you'll notice that they don't like it when other people use it in a non-trivial context).

:hide:

Be off with you, or I shall invent rumours about you being into toasters.

I did it because I was upset with the two posts and wanted to make sure they were handled, especially the poll. The "Top Gun" was here for at least a day, and yes I should have alerted sooner to register my feelings, but I figured it was already done. For that, I am wrong.

But it does stem back to the original snafu. We all agree that some people are going to say things that people can deem homophobic; and yes, one can agrue, it's in the eye of the beholder. But to post something that gays can find offensive in GLBT is, to me, an affront to this forum. I wanna make sure that this is gone and give a heads up to say, hey Exhibit #1 here, as to what we were complaining about.

everybody is so ready to throw down we forget to have a chuckle and cut each other a little slack. It's this bizarre dualistic dynamic where we want diversity and acceptance but we tolerate no difference of opinion or other POV within our own community.

I don't want things to be that rigid in GLBT. I'd like to agree with Skinner's original premise for reacting to an alert:

stop the ad hominemm, irrelevant and intentionally inflammatory responses
promote topical discussion, regardless of topic.

Not to be used to quash a topic.

Skinner is right, when we ask for topic control we're placing an unfair burden of judgement on the admins. I speak as one who has possibly as many deleted posts as I have posted posts. :P plus a couple of personal and ardent "love" letters from the admins and the Skinner himself inviting me to not disagree as strongly with them or drop dead.

I don't always agree with them but I do respect the huge job they have to do, and we're all human regardless of our mutual expectations of perfection. That's where having slightly wider parameters for human nature gets everyone through the day without a stroke.

I read the Top Gun one and the other OP was deleted. The Top Gun OP did not bother me in any way.
:shrug:

You cannot possibly tell me that this hasn't come up before. It's certainly has in my circles, if only jokingly, and it is clearly not meant to be offensive. In fact it's fighting homophobia by swiping at a decidedly homophobic figure in Tom Cruise. Lest we forget his issue with South Park's "Tom, Tom Cruise? Come out of the closet Tom Cruise" sketch. Maybe it isn't "gay" as the poll suggests, but it certainly is ironic that such a homophobe would be in a movie with so many men needlessly walking around in briefs... and need I mention playing beach volleyball? Is it hypocritical to suggest that homophobia can be fought by making fun of it? I hope not. In the words of Walt Whitman: "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes."

I did learn that there are more than a couple of goody-goodies in GLBT who demand that everyone else conform to their own standards of sensitivity. For that their rules are too strict, intolerant, and unreasonable. So for whatever it's worth, I will just do replies to other "authorized by the self appointed sensors" threads and not try and lighten this mausoleum up anymore.

I do not concede the semantics. It was not me that "degenerated" the thread.

Some thought it was stupid, silly or juvenile, I have no problem with that, in fact I admit it. A couple found it offensive, which it is not, and I will GO TO MY GRAVE defending that.

Bottom line, It's been locked. You won. An apology from me is not necessary. One thing I've learned growing up gay, is that I don't cow to bullies (One of which accuses me of posing as a gay man), because that just encourages them.

Personally, I'm going to go to my grave defending our right to marry and have equal treatment in this country.

Post all the "gay" movie threads you like. It really doesn't matter in the scheme of things. I think you must know by now, with the majority of responses in this thread, that it really wasn't such an offensive (or relevant) thread to most of us.

Maybe someday you will get it like I do. Apparently the rest of my message was lost on you.

I've been standing up to bullies my whole life.

in the important fight over your gay or not gay Top Gun thread. :eyes:

What do you want from me? What do you think you deserve? What do you think your entitled to from me?

The mod locked it for being sex talk.

I'm going to criticize the mod here as not knowing what sex talk is, good intentions and all.

Alas everybody knows what's best for us it seems, but us. It's a good thing we have people standing by willing to patronize us in the name of protecting us.

Just an opinion. Probably some rule against having an opinion about a mod's decision, but if that's the case then this whole thread should be deleted.

I was wondering if someone was going to bring that up.

"Shirtless guys in speedos playing volleyball" is sex talk? I'm clearly having MUCH better sex than everyone else.