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Bad science: Depression - the facts and the fables

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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:29 PM
Original message
Bad science: Depression - the facts and the fables
... This has been a bad week for the SSRI antidepressants. First there's the stuff you already know: bad data got buried. In a cracking new analysis of the "publication bias" in the literature, a group of academics this week published a paper in the New England Journal of Medicine which listed all the trials on SSRIs that had ever been formally registered with the Food and Drug Administration, and then went to look for the same trials in the academic literature.

Thirty-seven studies were assessed by the FDA as positive and, with one exception, every single one of those positive trials got properly written up and published. Meanwhile, 22 studies that had negative or iffy results were simply not published at all, and 11 were written up and published in a way that described them as having a positive outcome.

... Over the past few decades, we have been subjected to a relentless medicalisation of everyday life by people who want to sell us sciencey solutions. Quacks from the $56bn (£28.26bn) international food supplement industry want you to believe that intelligence needs fish oil, and that obesity is just your body's way of crying out for their chromium pills ("to help balance sugar metabolism").

Similarly, quacks from the $600bn pharma industry sell the idea that depression is caused by low serotonin levels in the brain, and so you need drugs which raise the serotonin levels in your brain: you need SSRI antidepressants, which are "selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors".

...

Meanwhile, in popular culture the depression/serotonin theory is proven and absolute, because it was never about research, or theory, it was about marketing, and journalists who pride themselves on never pushing pills or the hegemony will still blindly push the model until the cows come home. Which brings us on to our second new SSRI study.

Guardian UK


Are the benefits of SSRIs really more about advertising than science?
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. No. These drugs help people.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Either SSRIs work or they have a hell of a placebo effect. nt
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. They have a very large placebo effect
The studies have shown that.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Link?
Sorry, when I read "the studies" it's just a reflex.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. New York Times article
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/health/17depress.html?ref=opinion

The makers of antidepressants like Prozac and Paxil never published the results of about a third of the drug trials that they conducted to win government approval, misleading doctors and consumers about the drugs’ true effectiveness, a new analysis has found.

In published trials, about 60 percent of people taking the drugs report significant relief from depression, compared with roughly 40 percent of those on placebo pills. But when the less positive, unpublished trials are included, the advantage shrinks: the drugs outperform placebos, but by a modest margin, concludes the new report, which appears Thursday in The New England Journal of Medicine.


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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Thanks
Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 02:36 PM by wtmusic
I don't see a lot of objective reporting in the NYT article either, especially evaluations like this:

"The agency viewed as failed or unconvincing 36 other trials,..."

For the sake of argument, let's say 34 of the 36 were unconvincing -- data was not conclusive. Of course these studies would not be published, because they don't provide any meaningful conclusions on effectiveness, whether it was a result of bad methodology or whatever. So IMO that alone is not an indictment of the studies which did demonstrate effectiveness.

My heredity includes clinical depression and I have been taking sertraline (Zoloft) for 10 years. It has been enormously helpful, and I have tried other medications that weren't--so I am not convinced there is a placebo effect at work.

The article in NEJM will be worth a read.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. it seems to have an effect beyond the placebo effect
There is a large placebo effect, but even including all the studies, there is a small effect beyond the placebo effect. So some people don't respond to these things at all, some people respond because of the placebo effect, and some respond solely due to the medication. Trying to extrapolate any one person's reaction to these things to the entire population of Zoloft users is just impossible.

In any case, I am glad you have found relief.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. theoretically speaking
A pharma company could do a lot of studies, with only a couple of them turning up positive results, and the rest could be negative--so that, overall, a drug would show no efficacy. But if all the articles were not submitted to the FDA, only the positive ones, the drug could be approved.

That is what everyone is getting at here. The pharma companies distribute and promote only the most positive results, rather than the overall results of all their studies.

Rightfully, there has been some concern about this practice.

As for side effect profiles, for example, with Vioxx, Merck purposefully kept their trials small enough not to show a "significant" difference in heart problems by using the drug in any one study. It was only when all their studies were combined that it showed the really large negative effects that the drug could have on heart conditions. Once people realized that, then there was more attention drawn to pharmaceutical companies' unpublished studies. That is why people are looking at the unpublished SSRI studies.

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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Wrong AGAIN
Pharmas HAVE TO SUBMIT ALL DATA from clinical trials. Thats why FDA conducts surprise inspections on Pharmas and biotechs doing drug studies. They evaluate ALL the data.
No ONE PURPOSEFULLY KEEPS TRIALS SMALL. It is VERY difficult to get volunteers for clinical trials. I would participate if eligible. I suspect you wouldn't. Thats probably cause I have too much fire in my Shakra, right:sarcasm:
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. I always get my science from the MSM.
Peer reviewed data please. Do you know anything about serotonin production and dopamine and other brain chemicals.
Some people are diagnosed wrong and don't have true brain chemistry depression.
If you read scientific journals instead of internet/msm junk you would know that.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. NEJM
If you have access to the NEJM, you can read the entire article. Here is the abstract--

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/358/3/252

Background Evidence-based medicine is valuable to the extent that the evidence base is complete and unbiased. Selective publication of clinical trials — and the outcomes within those trials — can lead to unrealistic estimates of drug effectiveness and alter the apparent risk–benefit ratio.

Methods We obtained reviews from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for studies of 12 antidepressant agents involving 12,564 patients. We conducted a systematic literature search to identify matching publications. For trials that were reported in the literature, we compared the published outcomes with the FDA outcomes. We also compared the effect size derived from the published reports with the effect size derived from the entire FDA data set.

Results Among 74 FDA-registered studies, 31%, accounting for 3449 study participants, were not published. Whether and how the studies were published were associated with the study outcome. A total of 37 studies viewed by the FDA as having positive results were published; 1 study viewed as positive was not published. Studies viewed by the FDA as having negative or questionable results were, with 3 exceptions, either not published (22 studies) or published in a way that, in our opinion, conveyed a positive outcome (11 studies). According to the published literature, it appeared that 94% of the trials conducted were positive. By contrast, the FDA analysis showed that 51% were positive. Separate meta-analyses of the FDA and journal data sets showed that the increase in effect size ranged from 11 to 69% for individual drugs and was 32% overall.

Conclusions We cannot determine whether the bias observed resulted from a failure to submit manuscripts on the part of authors and sponsors, from decisions by journal editors and reviewers not to publish, or both. Selective reporting of clinical trial results may have adverse consequences for researchers, study participants, health care professionals, and patients.





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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Yes I know the placebo effect stopped my uncle from committing suicide
SSRI's have a REAL effect. Brain chemistry is well known. FOr someone who CLAIMS to understand science you show an AWFUL lack of understanding of basic biology
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. excuse me?
First, you lack reading comprehension. A treatment with a very large placebo effect (like SSRIs) can also have a real effect. I have stated that many times. You should know that.

Secondly, you cannot extrapolate your personal experience with some drug or treatment to the entire population of people. You need studies to do that. It is interesting to read anecdotes here, and I think it adds value to the conversation. But they are not "scientific." You should know that.

It is almost as if when studies come out that counter your personal experience, you discount them, but when they come out and confirm your personal experience, you laud them. That is understandable, from a psychological perspective, but it is not science.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes
There had to have been enormous amounts of promotion for these things. It is really hard to get doctors to prescribe things based on subjective criteria alone, but that is always the case with SSRIs, and yet they are prescribed, prescribed, and prescribed. Half of the results (conservatively) are due to the placebo effect, and the results are not overwhelming...............

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bad journalism: no link or quotes to NEJM article
No article on SSRIs is listed online for this week's issue.

The science is solid, and to many who use them they are a life saver. Literally.

Comparing them to chromium pills? Give me a break.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. check out the NY Times article
on this subject.

I am sure that they are helpful to many people, but they are only marginally better than a placebo, when all the trials are taken into consideration.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/health/17depress.html?ref=opinion
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. More bullshit, heres some REAL science
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. these have nothing to do with the OP
Your links have to do with whether treatment of any type caused the suicide rate to go down, using a large population of people in a database. This includes SSRIs, talk therapy, or any type of treatment. It does NOT include a placebo treatment.

Anyone should get some sort of treatment for depression, and I am glad to see that they all reduce the suicide rate. However, this study did not address whether or not a placebo would also reduce the suicide rate.

The OP is about whether SSRIs are all that much better than placebos, and your studies are just not responsive to that issue.
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moggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. It's better to link to badscience.net
Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" column in the Guardian also appears on his own site, and the latter is more useful. Firstly, the newspaper often makes cuts to the article; secondly, on his site he includes links to the papers etc he writes about; thirdly, the comments on the article are often very well-informed and add a lot of value.

This one can be found here.
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