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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 08:01 AM
Original message
'Redheads are Neanderthals'
'Redheads are Neanderthals'


London - Red hair may be the genetic legacy of Neanderthals, according to a new study by British scientists.

Researchers at the John Radcliffe Institute of Molecular Medicine in Oxford were quoted by The Times as saying the so-called "ginger gene" which gives people red hair, fair skin and freckles could be up to 100 000 years old.

They claim that their discovery points to the gene having originated in Neanderthal man who lived in Europe for 200 000 years before Homo sapien settlers, the ancestors of modern man, arrived from Africa about 40 000 years ago.

Rosalind Harding, the research team leader, told The Times: "The gene is certainly older than 50 000 years and it could be as old as 100 000 years.

"An explanation is that it comes from Neanderthals." It is estimated that at least 10 percent of Scots have red hair and a further 40 percent carry the gene responsible, which could account for their once fearsome reputation as fighters.

snip

http://www.planetsave.com/ViewStory.asp?ID=488

--------------------

Now, I understand.
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SweetLeftFoot Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. d
Minging Gingers.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Like elect wat?
"Life-long progressive. Aware that not all Americans are grossly obese numpties who squeal like elect..."

And what is "Minging Gingers"?

Scots...sheesh...wait grandad was Scottish. Oh, well.

Explain yourself, man!
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SweetLeftFoot Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. ...
electrocuted retards at major political events - was how it should have finished.

Minging = crappy, smelly, horrible .... Gingers = redheads.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Ahh thanks for the clarification.
I could've guessed. But wanted to hear you say it. You talk funny. People tell me I talk funny with my Texican whatever, but a Scottish accent is the best.
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SweetLeftFoot Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. I'm actually Aussie
just living over here with the haggis-shagers for a while.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You REALLy talk funny, then.
Haggis shaggers? LOL...too funny...
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teenagebambam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. Now I know....
...why I like caveman movies so much.
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CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. My Mom and Bro are Neanderthals!
They will be thrilled to hear about this.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. But you knew that...
already.
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dutchdoctor Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. There is no evidence that humans and Neanderthals interbred
to produce fertile off-spring.. Therefore they are considered separate species. There was this recent skeleton find of 30,000 year old child that had both human and Neanderthal features, iirc in Portugal, but I am not sure
Anyway, there is no conclusive evidence of mixing between the two species , and it would stir a huge controversy because it would imply that people from European descent would be genetically different from other people.
Watch out for that human ontology map due to come out somewhere in 2005
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Boreas Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Our Ancient Cousins
Possibly we rubbed them out. Likely? Given our propensity for genocide this one gets my vote. Sort of like Cain and Abel. The most recent skeleton, from Portugal, says to me that they were being pushed off the continent. They were artists and musicians as well as meat eaters. Mating with them seems inevitable, eh? Perhaps our civilizing traits come from them.

http://www.archaeology.org/0007/abstracts/neandertals.html

http://sapphire.indstate.edu/%7Eramanank/

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dutchdoctor Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. genocide? interesting thought...
Guess they hated us for our freedom, so we had to kill them right? ;-)
Here is an article saying that family words such as mama and papa go way bach to the Neanderthal era:

Family words came first for early humans
A trawl of a thousand languages suggests that common family words may have come from the Neanderthals
26 July 2004 Breaking News
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. On the other hand, see Roman Jakobson's
"Why 'mama' and 'papa'?"

Historical linguistics don't (usually ... no, I'll take that back) use computerized corpora, by and large. At least not for the kind of thing that paper dealt with.

Let's see ... assuming *papa in Proto-Indo-European (4000 BC, give or take a bit) should yield Common Germanic *fafa, and Modern English fay-fuh (spelled, probably, 'fafe'). *papa should yield Russian **popo.

Of course *papa in Common Germanic would imply PIE **bobo or **baba. But there are only a couple PIE words with 'b', and they're probably improperly reconstructed.

Well, the hypothesis falls apart for Indo-European. Unless we assume that these words are somehow magic. In which case see R. Jakobson's "Why 'mama' and 'papa'?" He argues that these words are special, in that the earliest syllables a baby can produce are the reduplicated 'pa-pa' and 'ma-ma'. I think he even digs up languages in which 'mama, papa' refer to the parents (or the primary caregivers) but 'mama' is applied to the male, and 'papa' to the female. (I'm not usually Jakobsonian, actually I think he's frequently all wet, and thought the paper had a few problems when I read it years ago, but many fewer that the paper you cited.)
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. Scots?
Pardon, but I always thought that the red hair in Scotland and Ireland came from Viking raiders?

As to whether I think it comes from Neanderthals, I'd say it's possible. As another poster pointed out, we haven't found any other evidence that Neanderthals interbred with Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but I think I've read that it should have been possible. There just doesn't seem to be any detectable genetic evidence that they did.

I HAVE seen some pretty impressive brow-ridges on certain people of Scandinavian descent, and have wondered about the connection for some time, but Neanderthals were generally thought to be shorter than Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Scandinavians tend to be quite tall. That could just be how the genes worked it out, however.

:shrug:

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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. The article challanges some of your assertions...
particularly:

Neanderthals were generally thought to be shorter than Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

Neanderthals have been characterised as migrant hunters and violent cannibals who probably ate most of their meat raw. They were taller and stockier than Homo sapiens, but with shorter limbs, bigger faces and noses, receding chins and low foreheads.

Neanderthals taller? Thatt came as a surprise to me. But, I can tell you, from my memory of adolescence, that Neanderthal girls would not have been safe from most of my buddies. The idea of crossbreeding seems likely, and, even if the result was some sort of hybrid, hybrids are occasionally fertile.

I think we have Neanderthal genes, and this story probably has merit.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. They're not taller
Maybe taller than Homo sapiens at the time, but I am 5'6" and would be a giant among neandertals.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Considering Some o f the Finns and Swedes I've Known
there is nothing inconsistent with being Neanderthal descendants.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. On the other hand, there aren't many redheads in Scandinavia
That's more a German/French/Celtic connection. Even Central Europe. More Celts.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. Does the ginger gene also account for Angrboda?
Or is it just Belatucadros?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-20-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'm not sure of the date of your link
but it looks like this report from April 2001 - http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=31&art_id=qw987423302994B216 .

By May 2001, Dr. Rosalind Harding seemed to be rowing back from her earlier comments:

Researchers have found that ithe gene which causes red hair has a variation that may be up to 100,000 years old. They are also trying to understand why some people who carry variants of this gene are more susceptible to skin cancer than others.

Rosalind Harding, the Oxford member of the research team, is investigating why this gene has several common variants that account for most of the red hair found in Europe and if natural selection influences the gene.

Dr Harding, a population geneticist at the Weatherall Institute of Molecular Medicine, said: 'This research is part of other work we are currently doing in genetics. We wanted to put the red hair gene into an evolutionary context, and the model used for examining this gene is a good basis for further research on other genes. We are doing more sequencing which will hopefully give us more data that are sensitive for revealing natural selection and therefore better results and clearer answers.'

It has been widely reported that the gene originated in Neanderthal man. Dr Harding says this just isn't true: 'We have never stated in our research that this gene is Neanderthal, but at the moment I cannot statistically prove that it isn't which is why others have drawn these conclusions.' It is thought that now people are moving around the world and meeting people from other cultures, the red hair gene is being spread into areas where it would not naturally occur, such as Jamaica. Red hair is also found in Papua New Guinea although it's not known why.

http://www.ox.ac.uk/blueprint/2000-01/3105/11.shtml
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
14. Uh.....
Neandertals and humans were different species and did not interbreed.
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semillama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Not necessarily true
Cross-species breeding is possible, as any birdwatcher will tell you. If two species are closely related enough, fertile offspring are possible.

The problem is that we lack adequate samples of Neandertal DNA to compare with our own. It's entirely possible that the DNA lines of mixed Neandertal/Cro-Magnon breeding have been extinguished, due to chance (That is, a line of people with such a genetic heritage failed to reproduce enough and the gene line extinguished.)
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes, of course. Horse and zebras cross. Lions and tiger
and bears...oh my!
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Squeegee Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. The key word here is "fertile offspring"
Crossing two distinct but closely related species, such as a lion and tiger, or a horse and zebra, will most likely produce sterile offspring and not continue on as its own hybrid species.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. The flaw is "most likely". Fertile hybrids do occur, that's a fact.
And a single fertile male neanderthal/cro-magnon hybrid could've had a considerable influence on the homosapien sapiens genepool...if he "got around". It is entirely possible, considering the potential.
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Squeegee Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. What I mean by "most likely"
Hybrid fertility depends on what species you are mixing and the gender of the offspring. For instance, horses and donkeys produce the hybrid mule which is always female and always sterile. Crossing zebras and horses can produce male and female hybrid offspring, but both are sterile. Crossing lions and tigers will produce sterile males, but a very small number of females can be fertile. For orca and dolphins, you get sterile male hybrids but many of the females are fertile.

In nearly all cases, male hybrids are sterile. Females have a little better success rate.

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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:09 AM
Response to Original message
21. A great way to piss people off Mr. Harding...
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
22. i beg your pardon
i resemble that
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. You still
have a great smile.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. bongo doesn't smile
now i know you are flirting!
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I'm a bad man...
but I bet I could make bongo smile.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. sounds like it
;)
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doreme Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
30. I don't know about Redheads but I know
Rednecks are Neanderthals. I live in a red state.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
32. This is news? I have known ever since high school.
Randy Chandler proved that for me.
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codswallop Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I've known my share
of Randy Chandlers.
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
35. Can they use their research to encourage the preservation of the gene?
I just adore red hair :loveya:
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
36. LOL
Neanderthal? My gf would love that.
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