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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 06:49 PM
Original message
Science Thread: Four Questions
Edited on Sat May-24-08 06:52 PM by Boojatta
1. What is space?
2. What is substance?
3. What is an idea?
4. When attempting to confirm a causal connection, what is it that one is attempting to confirm?

Note: question 4 is not about how; question 4 is about what.

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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. I have no idea
whether there is sufficient space here to address the substance of your question
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Not to mention time and energy.
Begin with a degree in physics, so you can understand the answer I will give you. Call me when you are ready!! :rofl:
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Possumpoint Donating Member (937 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm Not An Educated Man
This looks interesting, my answers are:

1. Absence of matter.
2. Matter
3. A solution to a question poised.
4. Causal connection is one made without hard facts.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Regarding your answer to 4, how would your answer change if
"causal connection" had been replaced with "statistical correlation"?
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Possumpoint Donating Member (937 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Still Is
Without hard facts.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Beat me to it.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Really?
Then let's allow Possumpoint to relax while you answer this one:

Are you sure that a question cannot be the product of an initial idea that may be hinted at by a specific fact, a mental effort to explore the initial idea, and a process of formulating the idea in clear language?
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Possumpoint Donating Member (937 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yes
it can. Each of us can approach unknowns and quandaries in different ways.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Let shraby do some thinking.
You can give your answer later.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. A question is the product
Edited on Sat May-24-08 11:12 PM by shraby
of not only an exploration of an idea about a fact, but also can be a product of a need to know. Have you ever lived with a child? They can throw question after question at you with no knowledge about what they are asking. A mental effort for them to explore the initial idea is not feasible because of their lack of knowledge of the world around them. Sometimes the question itself leaves a lot to be desired because of their lack of comprehension. So I would venture to say that the answer is yes.

I am a high school graduate so this is the best I can do. Also late at answering this because I was gone when it was directed to me.

edited to add.

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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. Four answers
1. No such thing; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime">spacetime.

2. Material objects that can undergo various transformations related to artificial or natural phenomena; typically used to mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_substance">chemical substance.

3. An untested hypothesis; the first step of the scientific method.

4. This is a philosophical question, not a scientific one. And anyway, logicians have been discussing this very issue for millennia and no one has yet come up with a good answer.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Could you explain how the boundary line between science and philosophy is drawn?
For example, does the combination of a soundness theorem for first-order predicate logic and Gödel's completeness theorem for first-order predicate logic merely show the equivalence of two more or less arbitrary claims?
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Well....
Science is about the form, ie concrete properties that can be objectively measured.

Philosophy is about the substance, ie the abstract properties that can be measured and described only subjectively.

Causiality is demonstrated when observation or deduction from observable events leads to general agreement that circumstance A leads to circumstance B. It has a solid place in scientific investigation, and in fact much of the scientific method is based on the concept. The problem is that there is no way to hold up the concept of causality and define it using concrete properties that can be objectively measured, putting it firmly in the area of philosophy.

Consider: "I have a talisman that protects me from allegator attacks. I have never been attacked by an allegator, therefore the talisman is working." There is no scientific way such a causal relationship can be proven or disproven. Keep in mind that every religion is based on causal conections which cannot be proven or disproven scientifically.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Thank you!
Edited on Sat May-24-08 08:06 PM by Boojatta
Two quick* questions: do philosophy and religion overlap? How would you identify the collection of topics that are philosophical but not religious?

* Well, quick to ask.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. And, surprisingly, pretty quick to answer
There is considerable overlap between philosophy and religion. The distinction between them is

* Philosophy derives from observation. Religion derives from faith in what has been handed down, either through the generations or by direct revelation.

* Philosophy generally seeks to maintain consistency; new ideas must either fit within the existing framework or replace it entirely. Religion is less concerned with consistency, as inconsistencies can be excuse away with, "But this is what we are told to believe."
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mach2 Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Space is where there is no stuff.
Substance is concentrated energy (the stuff that floats around in space)
An idea is a unique combination of information bits that appears interesting to someone, and
question 4 is a tautology.
:D
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Possumpoint Donating Member (937 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Space has been shown to
be an absence of matter. Matter in extremely small amounts and dark matter. Not sure that I agree that substance is concentrated energy. Matter may/may not have energy imparted to it.

Just what is a Tautology?
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mach2 Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Matter and energy are different forms of the same thing. E=MC^2
A tautology is a statement or concept that contains its own explanation or definition.
:-)
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Did the words "public key encryption" contain their own explanation...
... before anyone had thought of any general outline of a design for any kind of public key encryption system?
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mach2 Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. No, because then the phrase had no meaning.
Just as, for example, "cathode ray tube" would be to Alexander Hamilton.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Space is everywhere, whether occupied by matter or not.
Edited on Sat May-24-08 09:44 PM by L. Coyote
If it is anywhere or somewhere, it is space.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. just off the top of my head (and I'm unfortunately headed out)...
...none of those questions are really the purview of science, at least not as stated. I'm speaking as a working scientist.

1. The term "space" is pretty ambiguous. Do you mean the space between subatomic particles, the space between celestial bodies, or simply the absence of something else? Space is a colloquial term, albeit one that scientists use frequently, but in scientific use the context is everything.

2. "Substance" is also a colloquial term, again used as often (and as ambiguously) by scientists as by everyone else. Substitute "matter" and I can provide a definition, at least a working one. Remember, many scientific terms are not precisely definable except within a specific frame of reference. From my own field, I'll cite the term "species" as another example. But "substance" does not have a particular scientific definition that I know of. Google it and you'll get a better definition than any I could offer.

3. This is a philosphical question, not a scientific one. Remember, science tests hypotheses. If you have a testable hypothesis regarding the nature of "ideas" I'll try to discuss it with you, although until you obtain data to test your hypothesis there's not much more we can do.

4. Cop-out. I'm late! Gotta run! (Really)
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. I answered the first three in R/T.
4) That if two events were measured to occur at times t1 and t2, with t1 < t2, then for all observers in all frames t1 < t2. (Though the amount of time between them is irrelevant)
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Flawed thinking
t1 == The sun rises.
t2 == The morning news begins soon after on channel 5.

Therefore, the rising of the sun causes the morning news on channel 5 to begin.

:hi:

Mere sequence of events does not provide sufficient evidence of a causal relationship.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Whoops! Guess who misread "causal" and "causality"
You are right. What I have said only allows causality, and gives no indication of cause.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
24. Space is where you park, substance is goo
1. "Where'd you park?"
"In the space next to the van"

2. "Yuk, there's a sticky substance on the shopping cart handle."

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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
26. One question.
1. What answers are you looking for?
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dustsailor Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-26-08 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
28. I can't tell you what space is but...
I can tell you what it's not: something I have in my messy room.

:-)
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-26-08 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Welcome to DU!
:hi:
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Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
30. Some thoughts
1. What is space?

Someone already mentioned that we must also discuss time if we discuss space, but as a formal definition spacetime is a manifold - loosely a continuous set of 'points.' Philosophically it's still the same - the points are places that matter can occupy.

2. What is substance?

I'll take 'substance' to mean matter. This is actually a good question. Modern physics proposes everything is fundamentally a (quantum) field of one form or another that 'collapses' to point-like entities when measured. All matter is completely described by its properties - charge, spin, mass, charm, color, etc. Classically, these properties appear as source terms for various fields - charge distributions are divergences in electromagnetic fields, mass distributions (stress-energy really) are nonlinear divergences of a metric, etc. So I like to play around with the idea that matter is just local divergences in various (geometric) fields.

3. What is an idea?

An answer to a question.

4. When attempting to confirm a causal connection, what is it that one is attempting to confirm?

We have event A and event B. Suppose we wish to confirm A causes B. Then we wish to show that without A, B would not have occured and that any time A happens, B happens. Showing this ammounts to showing a statistical correlation between the events.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-29-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think there is only one science question in that list /nt
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. And it took only 31 tries to get to this answer - lol!
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The Sushi Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
33. OK here I go...
1. space is everywhere. outer space is over there...
2. substance has form
3. an idea is making connections
4. that is can connect
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