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Gore refused a deadline - DU translation: Gore wants the troops out now.

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:10 PM
Original message
Gore refused a deadline - DU translation: Gore wants the troops out now.
Here is what Gore said today.

Some people on the blogosphere (and on DU) cant think straight and they think this means"" Pull out the troops now".

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=elections&id=4236092
Gore, however, disagreed with Sen. John Kerry's, D-Mass., call to withdraw all U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of the year.

"I would pursue the twin objectives of trying to withdraw our forces as quickly as we possibly can, while at the same time minimizing the risk that we'll make the mess over there even worse and raise even higher the danger of civil war," Gore said.

Dismissing calls for any deadline, Gore added, "It's possible that setting a deadline could set in motion forces that would make it even worse. I think that we should analyze that very carefully. My guess is that a deadline is probably not the right approach; but again, you have to weigh that question in the context of how the political decisions are made between the Congress and the executive branch. Sometimes the Congress itself has blunt instruments and limited options to play a role in matters like this."


No surprise we cant win elections if people cant even hear correctly what their leader says.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. I still hope
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 06:13 PM by ProSense
Gore goes here and supports the call for withdrawal.


I so want to post this in that thread!
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Go ahead and do it! n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Done!
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 07:51 PM by ProSense
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Good ! n/t
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. That's Biden's position plain and simple
Kerry is to the Left of Gore on this. Same with Vietnam, right?

This is the first evidence that Gore is going to run. I don't like his position. Hopefully, neither does Maliki (Iraqi P.M.) who I'm hoping to hell will demand a sit down with the Americans to draw up a withdrawal plan. Haditha and the rest hopefully will compell him to do this -- in support of HIS constituency.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. So that explains this:
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Blaukraut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. good catch, ProSense! n/t
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I think Kerry, if he gets the nom, needs to keep Biden at arm's length
That guy is some kind of windbag. Look, I love Al Gore, and want to see his movie. But, you know, stick to global warming. He is adding absolutely nothing on the Iraq debate.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. I agree. He gains more right now by sticking to the middle.
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 07:58 PM by wisteria
He can continue to bash Bush and get attention. Whether it be for recognition of Global warming issues or because he has a big ego and likes the personal attention.
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. He is the worst kind of media whore
I can't stand Biden, mostly because I don't trust him at all. He'd say anything to get an interview.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
36. Well put. Biden isn't someone Kerry should turn his back on.
And Gore should stick to what he does best. That statement was bullshit. He basically gave a political answer: used words but didn't really say anything. He wasn't being pinned down to any plan at all. No deadline could also mean the same as Bush's "as long as it takes."
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. I took that as Biden being diplomatic. What else was he going
to say? He said something similar about Senator Clinton.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Doesn't surprise me
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. If Kerry had said he EXACT SAME THING....
... he'd be called "pro-war" and accused of wanting the troops there forever.

:banghead: Is there something in the water at DU that makes people more stupid, or what?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. DU water!
H2mOtive!


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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. You know there is arsenic in the drinking water
:D
I haven't swam in DU pond ever though.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
37. Every wing has its nuts. We have assholes on the left too...and they
seem to congregate here.

Seriously, I believe the reason they jump on Kerry is because there is a concerted effort to undermine his credibility among Democrats with the residual bitterness of the 2004 loss being used to fuel the fire.

The reason Kerry is a target is because he is still a threat to the Republicans. The attacks start after he does something newsworthy or makes a stand against the right.

There are right-wing agitators amongst us and they probably have stars and several thousand posts under their belts. They are probably well paid for their efforts too.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. Uh oh!
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I always hated that answer
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 07:05 PM by JohnKleeb
I knew, I knew. Sigh it's the most stupid and self righteous argument ever.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Of course
they'll avoid the truth like the plague!
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I thought the war was a bad idea from the start but
I think people who know shit about Intelligence shouldn't be bragging how they "knew" that Saddam didn't have WMD. I am glad you guys slammed her though.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. blm thread on the subject. More delusional people answering.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Yeah, I enjoyed that.
I'm trying to not attack Gore or Gore supporters but simply point out that a) the guy wasn't holding office when the IWR vote hit and b) his position on Iraq now equals Biden's position. Which is that we have to stay forever. Gore can vaguely say sooner better than later all he wants, but without a concrete plan, it's just hot air.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. He appears to be taking the conservative/middle view on withdraw
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 08:02 PM by wisteria
and this seems to be where the majority of the Dem's feel safe. I don't agree at all with this position. It ignores what affect our troops have in creating and adding to the violence and the Iraqi government allowing us to take the lead when it should be the Iraq's standing up to defend their country. Also, Kerry's resolution is not a cut and run, it still allows for troops to remain on the sidelines in case they are needed in an emergency situation.
I am a little surprised at Gore's response especially since he has been so outspoken about this war. It indicates to me that he really hasn't changed much.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yeah, like the recovering politician has fallen off the wagon
I think his original answer about loving what he's doing now is the right answer. My God, he's practically in Hillary's position. The Anti-Hillary shouldn't just have a you-know-what, he should also have a different world view. Kerry '08!!
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Kerry 08 for sure!! n/t
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Gore never said that Kerry's resolution was cut and run
(Biden did however).

He said he did not believe in deadlines, which is the standard Democratic answers. This does not make him Lieberman, and this does not put him in the camp of immediate withdrawal (where Kerry is not really either- He is for a phased and quick withdrawal.).

Except for the deadline, I do not believe they are that far apart. It is just the delusion on GD that amazed me. If Kerry had said the same thing, I dont think this would have been called a call to immediate withdrawal (and neither should it).
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I didn't mean to imply that Gore had said that, however that is
how Kerry's plan is being portrayed by the media and some of our own Dem's. I also think if you read Liberman's position on withdraw only, it would fall very closely in step with Gore's position, as well as the other middle of the road Dem's -Staying until the Iraqi's can handle it all themselves because we broke it now we have to stay and fix it. And, if you go with that position you can not possibly believe in deadlines because we can not know who long that will take. Why doesn't Gore see that as long as we are doing the fighting for them, they have no incentive to do it themselves? Senator Kerry's position is one of the only well thought out ones we have and I didn't hear anything in Gore's comments that even once touched on any of Kerry's positions on withdraw.
I may be being hard on Gore, but they are making him into some sort of saint and reading things into what he says that just aren't there.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
25. I agree with your interpretation
They did this last year too when Dean was behind the Korb plan rather than the Kerry plan.

Gore's answer is also not very clear. If this were Kerry's position, in addition to the Republican lite posts, there would be threads on his inability to communicate. The sentences contradict each other and meander and become tangents.

First Paragraph
Twin goals:
- Get out as quickly as possible (this is where DU thinks he means out now)
-minimize risk of raising higher the danger of civil war

The second paragraph is impossible to follow:

- a deadline could make it worse, but we should analyze it, but I think it's a bad idea, "but you need to weigh it in the context of how the political decisions are made between the Congress and the executive branch."

Kerry recommended BUSH set a deadline, Gore's context statement makes no sense. Think of the partial flip flops here: NO, maybe, NO, maybe
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
27. It's the IWR vote
Unfortunately, they use it to bash Kerry to promote Gore. Even though Kerry has regretted it, they assumed Gore would have voted no cause he opposed it from the start, so did Kerry, but everyone overlooks that and focuses on the IWR vote.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Ask then for some statement during the time of that vote from Gore.
I don't recall him saying anything on the IWR or the war issue until late 03. This was well after "Mission Accomplished" was proven incorrect and the violence had increased.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I don't remember him saying anything either n/t
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Here ...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2002/iraq-020923-gore01.htm


By shifting from his early focus after September 11th on war against terrorism to war against Iraq, the President has manifestly disposed of the sympathy, good will and solidarity compiled by America and transformed it into a sense of deep misgiving and even hostility. In just one year, the President has somehow squandered the international outpouring of sympathy, goodwill and solidarity that followed the attacks of September 11th and converted it into anger and apprehension aimed much more at the United States than at the terrorist network - - much as we manage to squander in one year's time the largest budget surpluses in history and convert them into massive fiscal deficits. He has compounded this by asserting a new doctrine - - of preemption.

The doctrine of preemption is based on the idea that in the era of proliferating WMD, and against the background of a sophisticated terrorist threat, the United States cannot wait for proof of a fully established mortal threat, but should rather act at any point to cut that short.

The problem with preemption is that in the first instance it is not needed in order to give the United States the means to act in its own defense against terrorism in general or Iraq in particular. But that is a relatively minor issue compared to the longer-term consequences that can be foreseen for this doctrine. To begin with, the doctrine is presented in open-ended terms, which means that if Iraq if the first point of application, it is not necessarily the last. In fact, the very logic of the concept suggests a string of military engagements against a succession of sovereign states: Syria, Libya, North Korea, Iran, etc., wherever the combination exists of an interest in weapons of mass destruction together with an ongoing role as host to or participant in terrorist operations. It means also that if the Congress approves the Iraq resolution just proposed by the Administration it is simultaneously creating the precedent for preemptive action anywhere, anytime this or any future president so decides.

...

WHAT CONGRESS SHOULD DO

I believe, therefore, that the resolution that the President has asked Congress to pass is much too broad in the authorities it grants, and needs to be narrowed. The President should be authorized to take action to deal with Saddam Hussein as being in material breach of the terms of the truce and therefore a continuing threat to the security of the region. To this should be added that his continued pursuit of weapons of mass destruction is potentially a threat to the vital interests of the United States. But Congress should also urge the President to make every effort to obtain a fresh demand from the Security Council for prompt, unconditional compliance by Iraq within a definite period of time. If the Council will not provide such language, then other choices remain open, but in any event the President should be urged to take the time to assemble the broadest possible international support for his course of action. Anticipating that the President will still move toward unilateral action, the Congress should establish now what the administration's thinking is regarding the aftermath of a US attack for the purpose of regime change.

Specifically, Congress should establish why the president believes that unilateral action will not severely damage the fight against terrorist networks, and that preparations are in place to deal with the effects of chemical and biological attacks against our allies, our forces in the field, and even the home-front. The resolution should also require commitments from the President that action in Iraq will not be permitted to distract from continuing and improving work to reconstruct Afghanistan, an that the United States will commit to stay the course for the reconstruction of Iraq.

The Congressional resolution should make explicitly clear that authorities for taking these actions are to be presented as derivatives from existing Security Council resolutions and from international law: not requiring any formal new doctrine of pre-emption, which remains to be discussed subsequently in view of its gravity.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Proof people don't know what they're talking about!
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 11:10 PM by ProSense
Gore's speech was based on Bush's proposed resolution:

In fact, the very logic of the concept suggests a string of military engagements against a succession of sovereign states: Syria, Libya, North Korea, Iran, etc., wherever the combination exists of an interest in weapons of mass destruction together with an ongoing role as host to or participant in terrorist operations. It means also that if the Congress approves the Iraq resolution just proposed by the Administration it is simultaneously creating the precedent for preemptive action anywhere, anytime this or any future president so decides.


And Gore was laying out criteria for action

Specifically, Congress should establish why the president believes that unilateral action will not severely damage the fight against terrorist networks, and that preparations are in place to deal with the effects of chemical and biological attacks against our allies, our forces in the field, and even the home-front. The resolution should also require commitments from the President that action in Iraq will not be permitted to distract from continuing and improving work to reconstruct Afghanistan, an that the United States will commit to stay the course for the reconstruction of Iraq.



Kerry cited Bush's resolution:

I want to underscore that this administration began this debate with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some in the Congress rushed so quickly to support it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force not only to enforce all of the U.N. resolutions as a cause of war, but also to produce regime change in Iraq , and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take.


And clearly stated that's not what Congress voted for:

The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force only with respect to Iraq . It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use Armed Forces to defend the ``national security'' of the United States--a power most of us believe he already has under the Constitution as Commander in Chief. And it empowers him to enforce all ``relevant'' Security Council resolutions related to Iraq . None of those resolutions or, for that matter, any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, calls for a regime change.

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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Thanks, interesting reading. I didn't know he was following all of this
so closely then.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Gore made a speech BEFORE the vote that sounded the same themes as Kerry's
speech. He did not SPECIFY That he would NOT vote on IWR and did not urge any Senator to vote against it. If he was the leader that many claim, he would have made his opposition clear, and urge others to oppose with their vote.

I see it as Gore, Kerry, Dean, Feingold, even Biden and Lugar, MANY senators, would not have gone to war while weapons inspections and diplomacy were proving fruitful.
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Blaukraut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
29. fer crying out loud
This is ridiculous, but typical. DU never lets a pesky little thing like the facts get in the way of wishful thinking. Good example - also concerning Gore; How many times can the man say 'I am not going to run in '08' until it sinks in here?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Never
Remember those who thought they would draft Dean on the Convention floor!
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. Yes
:rofl:
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