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So this is more important than withdrawal (Unbelievable!)

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 10:20 AM
Original message
So this is more important than withdrawal (Unbelievable!)
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 10:24 AM by ProSense
Arnove also points to electoral politics and suggests that we will never end the war as long as we support pro-war candidates. "The U.S. left made a terrible mistake," Arnove writes, "in supporting the presidential campaign of John Kerry, giving up its independence and political principles to support a prowar candidate. Kerry called for sending more troops to Iraq, insisting that 'it would be unthinkable now for us to retreat in disarray and leave behind a society deep in strife and dominated by radicals.' Kerry also asserted that he would still have voted to authorize President Bush to invade Iraq even if he knew Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction, a position that he only clearly retracted after losing the election."

Arnove believes, and I agree, that we will not turn the anti-war movement into a powerful enough force to end the war unless we oppose the war for the right reasons, the reasons that compel us to demand immediate withdrawal and to sacrifice until we've achieved it:

"Some liberals have staked their opposition to the war in Iraq on the idea that Iraq is a 'distraction.' The problem with this line of argument is that it accepts that Bush is now waging an otherwise legitimate war?. The stronger the consciously anti-imperialist current in the anti-war movement, the stronger the movement to end the war will be, and the greater the chance we will have to bring about the fundamental change needed to stop future wars."

http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/3575/1/190


What utter bullshit! Completely fabricated. These people have no fucking integrity!

Opposing the war for the right reason? Which is what: let's not end the war, until the anti-war movement is powerful?


People who really want out:

If our goal is truly to end this occupation as soon as possible, we must use every available tool to build broad unity and divide the support for the war. To refuse support for the Kerry resolution or other measures that fall short of our ultimate goal is to put the goal on indefinite hold.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=273&topic_id=84148&mesg_id=84188
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. What's strange is that if they really believe this
"Some liberals have staked their opposition to the war in Iraq on the idea that Iraq is a 'distraction.' The problem with this line of argument is that it accepts that Bush is now waging an otherwise legitimate war?. The stronger the consciously anti-imperialist current in the anti-war movement, the stronger the movement to end the war will be, and the greater the chance we will have to bring about the fundamental change needed to stop future wars."

Kerry's Ireland speech is the most eloquent statement of foreign policy that supports an anti-imperialist policy and looks to a time when wars would be rare. (In fact, the end of Kerry's 1971 speech also calls for turning - I think in that direction.

The misquotes in the first paragraph are the standard lies the LW freepers always state. Kerry said many times in September and October that he would not have gone to war. Not to mention - there support was anemic and very conditional - though they thought Dean (whose positions were nearly the same) walked on water.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. And there is a distinction
evidently between LW freepers and people who genuinely promote LW ideology: freepers being the operative word.

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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Ahm, how about this
The former top operating officer at the Pentagon, a Marine Lieutenant General, said “the commitment of our forces to this fight was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions--or bury the results.” It is hard for a career military officer to speak those words. But at a time when the administration cannot let go of the myths and outright lies it broadcast in the rush to war in Iraq, those who know better must speak out.

At a time when mistake after mistake is being compounded by the very civilian leadership in the Pentagon that ignored expert military advice in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, those who understand the price being paid for each mistake by our troops, our country, and Iraq itself must be heard.

Once again we are imprisoned in a failed policy. And once again we are being told that admitting mistakes, not the mistakes themselves, will provide our enemies with an intolerable propaganda victory. Once again we are being told that we have no choice but to stay the course of a failed policy. At a time like this, those who seek to reclaim America’s true character and strength must be respected.

John Kerry, April 22, 2006
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Wow!
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 10:44 AM by ProSense
The lefty freepers and Bush sort of agree: admitting mistakes, not correcting the mistakes, is more important.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Good point - ending the war is more important because of
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 10:46 AM by karynnj
the real cost that Kerry speaks of. Arguing the reason for getting in and attempting to change the philosophy of our government is important but has to take a back seat to fixing the current situation.

I do remember hearing those excellent words at what will likely be the best speech I will ever personally see.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Aw c'mon
I am looking forward to one whale of speech sometime in late Jan of say, 2008. Could be a real barn-burner in front quite the global audience. That one will exceed the Faneuil Hall speech. (Optimists check in here.)
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I agree that would be an utterly fabulous speech - I think you mean 2009
(I meant one that I saw in person)
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. Oxymoron
I checked the site and left as soon as I got there and see that they promote the site as "Marxist Thought."

Sure they are totally wrong but who cares what they think?

If we think Dean supporters are obnoxious, they're nothing compared to Marxists. While Marx himself may have had some value in some of his writings I wouldn't expect to find anything of value from a "Marxist"
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well,
that author posts on DU on occasion. Which may explain some of the delusion!
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
10. Actually, I agree with the following part
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 11:31 AM by Mass

Some liberals have staked their opposition to the war in Iraq on the idea that Iraq is a 'distraction.' The problem with this line of argument is that it accepts that Bush is now waging an otherwise legitimate war?


Way too many dems have trouble saying the war was wrong in the first place and simply say that it was poorly managed. (Actually, even people like Feingold do imply that you could find some rational to go there). It really muddies the message. If anything, it does not give confidence that they would not do the same error for Iran.

Actually, it is arguable that for the anti-war movement, supporting Kerry when he was not calling for a very quick withdrawal of the troops was an error. Of course , it means that you dont care about anything else than your cause, but, if it is the case, it is the right thing to say. (about like NARAL endorsing Chafee, for exemple).

I have no issue with what he said (except when he says that Kerry did know there was no BS). I disagree on the issue,but for once, it is not total BS.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's complete BS!
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 11:47 AM by ProSense
Opposition to the war only to strengthen the anti-war movement is BS. The bottom quote is also from an anti-war advocate.

Some liberals have staked their opposition to the war in Iraq on the idea that Iraq is a 'distraction.' The problem with this line of argument is that it accepts that Bush is now waging an otherwise legitimate war?


This is an article denouncing Kerry's position, yet this statement has nothing to do with Kerry's position. Also, the last part of that statement is patently false because most liberals do not believe Bush is waging a legitimate war. Can he quantify some, maybe Lieberman?


I can pick out a line in any right wing text that has a kennel of truth in it, doesn't validate what they say.

Lying is lying! If a person is lying to prove a point, the point is a lie. Sorry to use this analogy, but that is a Swift Liars tactic!
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Whatever!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'm simply making a point:
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 12:04 PM by ProSense
I don't see why it is important to denounce Democrats using a argument premised on lies? That piece reeks of motive and is laden with lies, why even agree with a word? Frankly, if this article was posted in GD, I would strongly object to every word!
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