Men sure are having a hard time reaching equality nowadays.

The following threads contain some very chauvinistic posts. Apparently men are losing the right to reproductive freedom of a woman's body and they are always the victims in divorce cases. There may be some actual discussion to be had on these topic, but unfortunately, the tone of many of these posts indicate that women are very much still second-class citizens in the eyes of many men here at DU. One can not engage in a meaningful discussion when there are those who immediately feel that men are the wounded victims of the "system." There are a few posters who seem to have showed up merely for the opportunity to begin arguing instead of discussing. I hope DU doesn't turn into nothing but an insult-fest. That would ruin what DU is suppose to be.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1247453

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=217x3924

the McCartney story that it would bring out the "woe is men" contingent.


And the men should have a choice stuff keeps getting regurgitated.


It's so much easier for the men to help keep the system that favors them by being blind to the fact that it does.

by the virtue of being male. They simply don't get that property division at the dissolution of the marriage is partly the state's recognition of the woman's unpaid contribution to it. Men just think they're entitled to have clean clothing magically appear in drawers and closets as though it had bred there overnight.

McCartney's children from his first marriage are going to be the ones who may come out on the short end if half goes to the second wife and her children. Oh well.

The wolf is unlikely to be at anyone's door in this little drama, so excuse me if I don't bother to haul out the violin.

Was it the guys, the girls or both? ;) I didn't click on your links, as I'm not in the mood to be angry right now. lol.

The attitude of sexism seems to be an extension of bigotry, homophobia, and the vast levels of entitlement many (yes even DU'ers) seem to think is their right birthright. I personally believe that some that state in theory that they believe in equality, were only willing to do so when the oppressed had no possibility of ever truly being equal. When it was just a theory--they happily supported it.

I saw it in big numbers during the Martha Stewart trial. Men and women I thought were progressive seemed to take joy in seeing Martha taken down. How dare she try to protect herself from losing money? How dare she make as much (and more) than many of them--what the hell is wrong with her!? :sarcasm:

Was Martha wrong? Sure. But she didn't do anything many men don't do and get away with every day.

*cough* Haliburton*cough* Cheney*cough*

I don't mean to go off topic here, Kerryt. :hi: Just utilizing an example where I've seen many progressive men's ugly side displayed prominently.

For further examples of DU sexism at it's finest--just go seeking out any of the Duke rape trial threads. They were delightful. :eyes:

Sometimes, we can only take so much before our heads explode! Quite frankly, I've hit my limit on these little posters who just come looking to pick a fight.

You didn't go off topic. You are perfectly on topic. It is true. Equality is fine in theory... but in reality, for some, it just "isn't fair!" :cry:

The whiners do seem to come out of the woodwork for these things, don't they? ;) It's funny that you mentioned the ones that just come out looking for a fight.

A couple of the threads you and I have talked about in the past, have brought out people that ONLY post when they see other's dogpiling. There's two in particular that I swear I ONLY see on threads of controversy. They jump in to say something hateful, (I guess) because it seems it's fair game to do so. :hi:

Other are just pure :crazy:


kt :hi:

:loveya::pals:

is meaningful discussion without the clueless men.

Those threads are terrible. I have seen the same thing with GLBT rights lately here too.

I tried to lighten up GD a bit tonight and boy, did the :crazy: come out!

I had a meeting all afternoon and have not been into GD yet. Lighten up GD? That has to be one of the most difficult jobs in the world :crazy:! Thanks for trying. :hi:

any other group deemed a minority to society at large. I naively expected better from DU--I was wrong.

I will never understand how people that aren't a part of a certain group and have NEVER been in a position to know how those in the group feel, can have the audacity to tell others how they should think or feel.

"That's NOT homophobia--you're crazy!"

"She wasn't raped, she was asking for it--what are you talking about?!"

"...I am NOT a rape apologist--thirteen year olds can consent to sex!"

"People say that to ME all the time, I didn't deem it as racist...why would you?!"

:puke:

I would think that people that have a low threshold for being called on bullshit would be more careful with their words. :eyes:

but I still think a good part of it is the need to feel superior or at the very least better than someone else.

I have never been able to not empathize with others, often I wish I could not because it is often very hard isn't it. It is the very thought of not even trying that bothers me the most. Is it the lack of curiosity or need to understand? It boggles my mind and frustrates me to no end. Especially when I see good, honest, earnest and honorable people being marginalized for things they had no control over and have no reason to be ashamed of while the bullying and bigotry that are controllable are supported.

Sometimes I just have to go away for awhile.

MuseRider. They do need to feel superior. Like you, sometimes tire of it all and go away for awhile. :hug:

I had no idea that my comments had been taken as insensitive to some. I heard them out and was really stunned. Thankfully, instead of making an ass out of myself, I went to the forum that specifically addressed those whom I had offended. I started posting and asking questions. That move was greatly appreciated by them and it was invaluable to me.

I would love to see that happen more often. I have seen it happen with others, and it is always refreshing. I remember being in that same position. Growing as a human being always feels better than stewing in ignorance.

I really have always had gay friends and my brother was gay but I never really talked about it to others so when I started with the steering committee that has become our state organization for GLBT rights I had no idea. Know what? I told them that and I told them that I welcomed correction. It was probably the most important thing I have done as far as building relationships. Now I have my special joke explainers who explain the jokes that I don't get. It is wonderful and I am part of the community or at least I feel that way.

You did the only thing that ever helps, you gave them your mind and heart and effort to learn about them. :hug: That is the best part of being human isn't it?

further down in this forum, from a male member that came here to ask if he was sexist or insensitive in terms of a personal interaction.

By the time I saw it, he already had several great responses from our members--but I was really touched by his post. That he would utilize this board as the rich resource it can be if one allows it to be. :thumbsup: Very cool!

a fine DUer. I loved that, I don't think I ever posted to it. I met him in Crawford and he is an amazing young man with much heart. That is exactly the thing to do and the responses were good and he was open. If we all could do that think of the peace we could make.

I already thought he seemed like a cool guy. That post solidified my opinion.

I am a teacher. I teach mainly African-American children. There was a thread about Halle Berry. I just didn't get it at all that day. But thankfully, due to my wonder African-American friends, I'm a better person and better teacher to my students!

Think what kind of board this could be, if some of those that made the biggest asses of themselves shouting down feminists and rape survivors, took the time to come to our forum and ask questions? Seriously.

They seem to get off on the argument aspect, they desperately need to win. They think they've really told someone off. All they've really accomplished is labeling themselves in a rather unfavorable light.

Feminist forum members know the usual suspects quite well. Most, if not all of us know who is going to crawl out from their rock with neanderthal bullshit everytime a pro-woman thread is started. Just like the Jewish board members know who the anti-semites are, the glbt members know the homophobes, and the african american board members know the bigots. As a pro-choicer I'm well aware of some members that are anti-choice. As they've let me know how I can't wait to abort unborn fetuses(I wish I were kidding). The vegans know who the carnivores are. Etc., etc. etc.

I sincerely hope that the latino and hispanic members of our board started their forum( I saw a thread requesting one in GD during the height of the immigration bru-haha)--as I'm sure they too have a list a mile long of those that had the most to say during the immigration threads.

Sadly, our lists probably all overlap a bit. :eyes:

I swear we should all keep lists and compare someday when we've had enough!

as I was brushing my teeth, lol, and I wanted to say this but can't think of the appropriate descriptor. The closest I can come to is pride or proud but those do not really mean what I am thinking but I will go on and use those and probably just restate what someone else has said, oh well.

Every group has a certain pride. I am proud to be a woman and take pride in feminists (this is where the word does not really work, why am I proud of something I can take no credit for?)

Anyway, every group feels that same pride and the same ownership of their issues. I have always found that respectful questioning and even respectful argument is a way of bonding. It allows you into the group as an ally and every group needs its allies or they never get anywhere. Some allies may not entirely support your issues but do support your right to have them. It is the honest questioning and acceptance of their values that makes the trip into what is foreign territory for you worthwhile. It is the only way this country, groups or single people will ever learn but we as a whole seem to need to be adversarial with anyone different than we are.

Now I have said nothing really new here but I thought of you and this thread and it makes me very happy to be here. This is a keeper, one for me to look back on when I get so angry I want to pull my hair out. Knowing people like you, the people here in this group, the GLBT group where I spend time and all the other DUers who feel this way is what keeps me going.

I hope you all have a lovely day. I am now going to start my chores with a full heart and a happy whistle before I get too maudlin. :hug:

I, too, plan to bookmark this and read it when I am frustrated with certain posters who should really be banned.


kt

Someone pinch me! It can't be for real!

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I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but my head is just spinning. Apparently, having men share in the responsibility of raising the child they fathered somehow reeks of the PATRIOT act.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=217x3924#4227


Like I said, I don't mean to pull down the uplifting spirit that this thread has become. But I'm so tired of seeing posts that would more likely be welcomed on "other" sites, I can't help myself. I'm not attempting to goad people into responding to this guy and encouraging him any further, but I need to vent and what is allowed to thrive here at DU.

Thanks friends! :hi:

They sound angry,and ignorant, and they are, but you scratch beneath the surface and you find unacknowledged fear. I've been shaking my head a lot around here lately.
When the words "politically correct" became demonized, an example of control over rights rather than treating others in a equal and decent manner it seemed license for all kinds of attitudes to prevail. It's not the words themselves that had so much power, but the ideals behind them do or did. When the country fought for equal rights, civil rights, we were confronted with ourselves, our language our attitudes. We had to face ourselves our compliance, our own sense of superiority, and for many, our sense of entitlement.

What we see now, I believe is a backlash. The great tide of the civil rights movement, when it retreated, left a beach exposed (If you'll forgive the metaphor) And some of those things were too difficult to face for those with the most power- starting with The White Male. A lot of collective maneuvering went on, a lot of squirming, a lot of justifying. And there were always the soul dead, the absolute opportunists who came along to manipulate the national consciousness.
In the emotionally draining aftermath of great changes, these opportunists were quite successful.

I know as an individual, when I'm faced with unpleasant truths about myself, I squirm around for a while and try to deny them, but I've learned over time to face those truths head on and do something about them, rather then defend them. I loved the post on this thread about learning and remaining teachable, especially regarding "the other" How many will mouth support for "Gay rights" "Gay marriage"but are secretly uncomfortable with it? Exposing and facing those things in ourselves is essential for a progressive community.

Sexism and Racism-- our two most destructive forces, are alive and well and actually thriving in society. Yet so many try to deny it because we're no longer lynching black folk, and women can now be CEO's. We've come far but not so far we can start stagnating now, and that is what those threads represent to me--stagnation of thought, of growth, of societies evolution (or revolution.) Because stagnation leads to rot.

I remember when Political Correctness began and how nice it was after everyone really began to think about what they were saying. It made sense and it was working, there seemed to me to be less tension. Different groups could talk respectfully and understanding more often was the outcome. I know that was not always the case but there was pressure put on each of us to fall in the line by treating each other in better ways.

I have always suspected that as it went along and became almost insane with the changed names for everything, often times every few months it seemed one group or another changed what was proper to call them, that there was someone or some group behind it. Tinfoil? Maybe, but it seemed organized to me and when it broke it broke hard. All of a sudden we were back to laughing at the most horrible things that had been gone for a while. I struggle with my kids over this to this day. I know how they feel but they do not know the history behind what I am trying to say to them. I do believe the words are as powerful and the ideals behind them. They give you permission and encourage others and give them permission.

I think PC was started as a real movement to better society. I believe it began to work in many ways. I believe it did not suit our powers that be to have us all understanding one another. I believe that they are the one's who made it so impossible as to seem more silly than helpful. So here we are. The power structure has not really changed much but I think it could have.

The term "Politically Correct" took on its current (incorrect) meaning in the early 1990s after several conservative writers began criticizing the use of sensitive language.

Some of the alleged examples were never used in real life and were the products of the imaginations of conservative writers: "vertically challenged" for "short" or "follicly challenged" for "bald" were two fictitious examples that were repeated in the media as if someone had actually insisted on them.

I can still remember when a "politically correct" person was one who insisted on following Marxist ideology whether it was appropriate for the situation or not, such as the Marxist in the anti-intervention group I belonged to objected to sponsoring an event jointly with the local liberal Catholic church.

:applause: Fantastic post! :applause:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=217x4292


What if... what if... what if...

drunk to rape them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=217x4292#4307

So bitter about all the injustices he imagines are heaped on men and boys.

Where do these people get this shit?

This thread has become a venue to call out DU members.