We don't love freedom, we love comfort

There's always been a canard about how Americans love their freedom. The latest revelations concerning wiretapping should prove that one false. Americans can't distinguish between freedom and material comfort. We talk about this being a free nation, and then couch it in terms of our standard of living, as if the fact that everyone has a TV and cable makes us free. The people that don't care whether they are being spied on clearly don't care that they no longer have the freedom to not be spied on, yet ironically they are the ones that typically scream about their freedom.

We've become a comfort-seeking nation. We don't think deeply because it's too difficult, we place utmost importance on having the latest or most expensive gadget, and we plug ourselves into the matrix daily for hours on end with the TV. We claim to be informed, but almost no news of the outside world ever makes it into our awareness-most of us can't even name the majority of other countries, let alone who their leaders are or what thier culture is like. Like imperial Rome, we expect the world to suck up to us, and get mad when it doesn't. Meanwhile, we're content to sit back and lap up McDonalds nondigestible fries and buy inferior crap from Wal-Mart.

How can we take America back? The average American doesn't want to go back.

The masses will always have their opiate, and it's perfectly designed and applied here in Amerika today. The corporate system has successfully changed our role as citizens into that of consumers.

Both the government and the corporate economy think of people not as people, but as a means to an end. they will do, and have done, everything in their power to keep us asleep and comfortable.

a world more Huxleyan than Orwellian, IMHO.

Correct!

Only it's too bad that with all the comforts we enjoy, there is this paradox, where many people are working harder for less pay, in a futile attempt to enjoy MORE comfort. Then there are those who horde, steal and cheat at the expense of their neighbors comfort.

and I have to admit, I see a bit of myself in your post. :(

I'm not innocent either.

But I'm no Freeper. I'll admit to my faults.

we can see our faults...and I know I have many. :toast:

countries have survived a lot of things, but no country has ever survived comfort and ease. Blows my mind every time I hear it.

You must be rich.



Keith’s Barbeque Central

have discounts for Florida residents

We know some People of the Mouse, and they get us guest passes when we're visiting. Where is the Americana pavilion?

lake, it's on the opposite side. Next to Italy I think.

It was so suffocatingly corporate I had to leave almost as soon as I got there. It was like one giant "image" commercial for the big corporations. A total waste of time.

This was years ago. Maybe it's better now.

I have no desire to even go there, just as I have no desire to go to Las Vegas.




Keith’s Barbeque Central

and SUVs jacked up 30 feet above the freeway like total idiots... and then piss, bitch, moan and whine when gas tops $3 a gallon.

Which I suppose aids our sense of comfort, too.

Good post, EstimatedProphet. Pass me the comfort fries, please. :)

World Series, Loteries, Blockbusters, all sorts of distractions so that the poor can participate vicarious;y alomg with the wealthiest person.

Americans don't have a clue what it means to live in a place void of these distractions. We don't understand how people could blow themselves up because to our way of thinking, to die is to miss out on all of these pleasures. Who would want to do such a thing?

you've made it. Copied and saved.

once every four years or so is a show of patriotism. And as for those who can't even be bothered to vote, what can I say? Things have to get a whole lot worse before they'll wake up.

Those that spent $2.99 for the ribbon magnet on their SUV.



Keith’s Barbeque Central

They have seen the OTHER side..and truly love the freedoms we have. When I was fundraising for the DNC the elderly would give their last $10. When I out petitioning they will always stop and sign it. It is their obligation and they take it very seriously. UNFORTUNATELY, they are all dead or in their 80's and will be gone soon.

This thread is making me uncomfortable. :evilgrin:

Just kidding

but I wanted to make a point about the spying. There are cameras at many intersections. Those cameras take away my freedom to run red lights with impunity but otherwise do not concern me - UNTIL and UNLESS, I hear that they are being abused for other nefarious purposes.

If law enforcement follows me to Wal-mart and Wal-mart security follows me through the store and law enforcement follows me back home, that does not bother me over-much. If, on the other hand, they pull me over for trivial reasons, ticket me, and otherwise harrass me, then that becomes a problem. Again, random or large scale spying is one thing. Spying on people for their political beliefs, however, is a clear violation of the 1st Amendment. Such is the political climate that there are a large chunk on both the left and right who hate those on the other side and have no qualms about them being harrassed.

Kidding...

I know what you are saying about spying being alright until it hits home, but I think there is a very fine dividing line. Where exactly does it become too intrusive?

Here in Ohio we are about to have the Ohio Patriot Act signed into law. It states that law enforcement officials can arrest someone for being in public and not offerring their name, address, and date of birth when asked. There's a local fascist radio hack that uses the same argument the freepers use for Bush's spying: why would anyone not want to give that information? If they give the information then they are OK, so the law isn't a problem.

BULLSHIT! That argument overlooks one helluva big elephant in the room-NOW IT WILL BE ILLEGAL TO NOT GIVE YOUR INFORMATION! Whatever happened to laws designed to protect people from injury of some sort? how is not submitting to questioning grounds for arrest? This is in complete contradiction to the concept of innocent until proven guilty. While the freepers go on about how the law will only effect people that are doing "wrong", they forget that now "wrong" is defined as saying "none of your business."

being required to show ID seems very 1984ish, and I had a run-in with a foliceman in 1986 where he asked me for ID. My response was "why?" and that really ticked him off. I was walking home from a 24 hour grocery store, why should I be required to show ID?

Of course there are a couple reasons I was unaware of, and I do not think those are unreasonable. But I like to be able to walk down the street without being pestered or delayed even if it is 2 AM, but being required to show ID is not a huge burden. If, however, they start taking names at political or anti-war rallies or even anti-abortion protests that, again, seems like they are treading on the first amendment rights to peaceable assemble.

Being REQUIRED to show ID is a huge burden. If you were walking down the street at 2 am under this new law, and you didn't have ID or give your name, there's now a jail term associated with it-not a night in jail, but a sentence.

Has it officially been enacted now?



Keith’s Barbeque Central

Likely then it hasn't been signed because of the holidays, but he is expected to sign it.

Here's one of my prior posts: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5645633



Keith’s Barbeque Central

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

"Those cameras take away my freedom to run red lights with impunity"

None of us has the freedom to break the law without punishment. Those cameras are there, ostensibly, to lower the number of traffic accidents by more strongly discouraging people from breaking the law. You still have the freedom to run the light, but your chances of getting caught are now much higher.

Aside: The problem with tightening the grip is that it escalates the problem. Criminals, who really do wish to have impunity, will start accelerating through lights, obscuring their tags, replacing their tags with stolen tags, masking their face, etc. all in an effort to defeat the system. The government will respond with yet more laws to tighten down.

At any rate, red light cameras are a poor "solution" to a situation that really wasn't a "problem" in the first place.

It's good to see others notice. Actually, I think it was Dave Emory, when he still had a show with Mae Brussels. He brought that up, and it made total sense. I looked around, and it made sense. It still does. It's sick.

Americans are addicted. And it IS about oil.

Can you send to Huffingtonpost for posting there? TPMcafe?

Maybe a few more examples illustrating your point could be included. The theme of comfort vs freedom/democracy is interesting and important and explains a lot, IMO.

I might just give it a try...

Isn't that Maslowe's 5th need? (Or is it the 4th?)
The Professor

should be changed to the race between comfort and freedom. Freedom implies responsibility along with the pursuit of happiness, and you are right, we are choosing comfort over freedom.

I think another issue is that there isn't a clear choice to fix it. If this election or this march or this LTTE or this candidate would fix the problem, we would do it. But taking back our government would be monumentally hard work, and this candidate disappoints, this march has a low turnout, this election appears to go further away from our goals... if we could take up our pitchforks and march on THE public square in solidarity, then maybe we could prevail. But this is a big country, a politically fractured country. The media is always able and willing to divide and confuse. If all else fails, they just continue to go blah, blah, blah and everything remains status quo.

I suppose there's not much hope for America, but I think much of the rest of the world truly hungers for that which we have given up. Maybe democracy (real, not Bush's brand) will catch hold in the rest of the world and eventually come back to us. Maybe the world will see our example and not let the corporations take over their media, their government. Maybe some day, they'll help us get our freedom back when Americans are no longer too comfortable to care.

in the face of Bush's falling poll numbers.

Comfort is a very addictive state. We humans are comfort-seeking organisms, and we will choose it over what is best for us every time, because that is in our nature. That's why it is that poor people will vote for tax cuts for the rich, even though it hurts them-they want so badly to be rich and comfortable that they abandon rationality to feed that fantasy, and then make it easier (the think) for them when they finally "make it big."

We won't really care about freedom until it impacts our comfort level, and then it will be too late. Until then we will keep rolling over as the Constitution gets shredded-until the 2nd amendment gets taken away. That will wake up the sleepers because they will lose their toys, but it will be too late. That's why I've always said the Republicans do want to take away guns-they just want to do it last.

Just to be an annoying optimist, let me say that we never know when the American people might decide to delay short term gratification in favor of long term greater good... it may be a straw, but I'll grasp at it. These GOPuckers might appear to have it all sewn up, but there's always the law of unintended consequences. Something unforeseen will happen, and when it does, we'll be prepared to seize the opportunity.

Because people won't care about it until it affects their comfort level. And as you say, by then it will be too late.

Excellent observation. Not sure what we can do about the problem on a large scale, but recognizing it and giving it a name is the first step.

This completely nails it for me. Thanks

Unfortunately, it's like anything else. The comfort has to be taken away in order for people to act; their distractions from the real world must be gone.

I remember reading about Bush voters once - they see him as a daddy figure; as their protector. This mindset can be seen in the recent polls, those who say it's OK for Bush to spy on us. As long as they are fat, dumb and happy (so to speak) - they could care less about the Constitution and our rights as citizens.

One day though, their comfort will be gone. Then we'll see what happens.

They're a bunch of wusses when it comes to "the terrorist threat." They'd happily shred the whole Constitution and make Bush Deity for Life if they thought that it would keep the Big Bad Terrorists away.

They don't fear the loss of liberty, because they rarely exercise it. They do what everyone else does, no matter how stupid it is. As long as they have their opiates (TV) and mind control devices (radio) and leg substitutes (cars) and other drugs (credit cards), they won't feel like rebelling.

Now, I would not be happy without my electricity and running water, I admit, but I've lived in much less comfort than I have now, both in Japan and as an impoverished grad student on the East Coast, and in some ways, those were the happiest years of my life. I've lived long enough to know that material comfort has only a slight correlation with happiness as long as one's basic needs are being met.

Perfect, so I repeated it.

as painful if we all pitch in and share the burden.

You are absolutely right about the comfort. That is a tough habit to break. However, again I believe we would all be more inclined to do it if we could see the big picture and if everyone shared part of the burden. And if we stopped listening to the lies coming from advertising and the media that keep us disconnected from each other.

but I don't see us sharing the burden, personally. For example, I can't see the Walton family giving up their standard of living for anything. Instead, I think they will fight harder and harder to keep and expand it, even though it is bound to fall along with dwindling oil reserves. I think the same will be true of all the rich and powerful in the US. Imagine Barbara Bush willingly giving up her comforts so that people wouldn't have to sleep in the streets, and you'll see what I mean.

:applause:

But I think the first step is to clean up the food supply. Get the masses off their chemical, sugar and fat addictions and maybe that will clear the mental cobwebs that will enable them to entertain ideas that require introspection. When you are sluggish you don't want to exert any more than necessary.

I know that sounds a little simplistic, but I am applying my personal philosophy to get out of funks on a macroscopic level. I always start with my diet, nutrition, and exercise program. Once I feel better and get more energy, it enables me to tackle bigger goals. And then even bigger goals until my life is back on track. I think if people feel better, have more energy, they will be more willing to entertain life changing patterns.

As it stand, I think the obesity epidemic contributes to complacency and our addiction to the current lifestyle.

I realize this doesn't take into account socio economic factors and it should be addressed as well.

Well, just my two cents....

"The people that don't care whether they are being spied on clearly don't care that they no longer have the freedom to not be spied on, yet ironically they are the ones that typically scream about their freedom."
Who is more likely to be spied on: an ordinary American or an American who has a lot of political influence?

"How can we take America back? The average American doesn't want to go back."
Who has a higher level of material comfort: an average American or an American who has a lot of political influence?

"Meanwhile, we're content to sit back and lap up McDonalds nondigestible fries and buy inferior crap from Wal-Mart."
People who place utmost importance on having the latest or most expensive product are satisfied with low-quality products?

"The people that don't care whether they are being spied on clearly don't care that they no longer have the freedom to not be spied on, yet ironically they are the ones that typically scream about their freedom."
Who is more likely to be spied on: an ordinary American or an American who has a lot of political influence?
Both, actually. The investigations Bush used were large blanket operations, where they were listening to random calls. The only ones not likely to be spied on are political friends of Bush.

"How can we take America back? The average American doesn't want to go back."
Who has a higher level of material comfort: an average American or an American who has a lot of political influence?
Those with more political influence, on average. That doesn't mean that the average American has none. We live in the most affluent, consumptive society in history. The average American lives like a king compared to much of the third world, and they won't like going back to a more physical labor-based way of life if we don't have an answer to the oil reserves problem.

"Meanwhile, we're content to sit back and lap up McDonalds nondigestible fries and buy inferior crap from Wal-Mart."
People who place utmost importance on having the latest or most expensive product are satisfied with low-quality products?
People will go berserk trying to have the latest gadget, and they will at the same time outsource US production to China to make things less expensive, even though the quality is lowered. The latest thing doesn't mean the highest-quality thing. The fact that the item is seen as expensive by others is what counts, not what someone actually spent on it. that's why we have "must-have" items at Christmas-and people literally beating each other up to get them. Then the item gets used until the novelty wears off, and a new "must-have" hits the stores.

>>The only ones not likely to be spied on are political friends of Bush.<<

They're right up there on the list for wiretaps, datamining, etc. Once paranoia sets in, no one is immune, and those closest to us are under the greatest suspicion.

You can BET that even the Bushie pal network is being thoroughly monitored.

cynically,
Bright

"Freedom of choice is what you got, freedom from choice is what you want"

Let's have a war!
Jack up the Dow Jones!


I love it, man. Great thinking.

them as long as the choice adds to their comfort level.

Deep down, I think that most people like to be treated like children in that respect. They like the illusion of choice but don't like the reality of it. (Might make the wrong decision. If a wrong decision is made for us, then we're not responsible for the bad choice.)

As long as they're drawing a paycheck, get to watch their NFL Sunday Ticket, and drink beer, they could care less if it's Shrub, Stalin, or Hitler in charge.

Now take away their paycheck, that's when they start getting upset...

And, in my opinion, it's the TV that has done more to make us this way than anything else in existence. The TV goes on, and the brain shuts off.

TV that has done more to make us this way than anything else in existence. The TV goes on, and the brain shuts off.

Crude, but accurate...

Television, The Drug Of The Nation
by Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy

One nation
under God
has turned into
one nation under the influence
of one drug

Television, the drug of the Nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation
(2x)

T.V., it
satellite links
our United States of Unconsciousness
Apathetic therapeutic and extremely addictive
The methadone metronome pumping out
150 channels 24 hours a day
you can flip through all of them
and still there's nothing worth watching
T.V. is the reason why less than 10 per cent of our
Nation reads books daily
Why most people think Central Amerika
means Kansas
Socialism means unamerican
and Apartheid is a new headache remedy
absorbed in it's world it's so hard to find us
It shapes our mind the most
maybe the mother of our Nation
should remind us
that we're sitting too close to...

Television, the drug of the Nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation
(2x)

<snip>

Television, the drug of the Nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation
(2x)

Back again, 'New and improved'
We return to our irregularly programmed schedule
hidden cleverly between heavy breasted
beer and car commercials
CNNESPNABCTNT but mostly B.S.
Where oxymoronic language like
'virtually spotless', 'fresh frozen'
'light yet filling' and 'military intelligence'
have become standard
T.V. is the place where phrases are redefined
like 'recession' to 'necessary downturn'
'Crude oil' on a beach to 'mousse'
'Civilian death' to 'collateral damages'
and being killed by your own Army
is now called 'friendly fire'
T.V. is the place where the pursuit
of happiness has become the pursuit of
trivia
Where toothpaste and cars have become
sex objects
Where imagination is sucked out of children
by a cathode ray nipple
T.V. is the only wet nurse
that would create a cripple

Television, the drug of the Nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation
(4x)

Full lyrics here: http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Disposable-Heroes-Of-Hiphoprisy/Television-The-Drug-Of-The-Nation.html

of an observation, EP. Keep the toys flowing, the credit easy, and the TV on, and a large percentage of the sheeple wouldn't care if they drove by the crematoria in Chimpco's concentration camps on their way to work each day.

is based on easy (affordable) payments. It's NOT the cost of a car or home; it's the monthly payment. We have gone from 15 year mortgages to interest only in 2 generations. I had a friend in Atlanta, after his divorce, leased a Vette for $850/month!
Even infomercials don't charge you $100 but rather 3 low monthly payments of $33.33!

As long as we are safe within our comfort zone, there will be little dissent. I never realized how narrow that zone could be, either.

(love your sig pic, btw!)

:)

a very similar sentiment. He contrasts the WWII era in which citizens on the homefront were called upon to make sacrifices (which they willingly did) with the fact that these days the only message from the "war prezdint" seems to be "keep shopping"!

I think you both hit the nail on the head!

as long as most people have "...tight pussy, loose shoes, (cold beer) and a warm place to shit...", they could not care less.

(For you younger ones, Earl Butz was Agriculture Secretary during Nixon's Presidency)


:evilfrown:

I remember making jokes about him being named Butz, and how appropriate it was for him.

You've got a big point, obviously, fat and happy and entertained WHO gives a crap about some spying on terrorists or even that weird guy next door heh?

But as someone pointed out in another thread on this, where you have great protection, great police state, you have lots of safety. Freedom, not so much. The nation has been terrorized by these criminals in the White House. Propagandized. And it's stuck. Bush "won" his votes on two things-religious right, and FEAR. 9/11 changed everything for a lot of this nation. That cliche is true. It changed me a bit for awhile. I bought the fear and propaganda for awhile and it chagrins me to no end. I couldn't stand Bush-was always a Dem, but I thought-hey,maybe we do need war to keep us safe!?? GOD it was horrible. The only time I was ever for war! It was madness that came over me-fear- I was a new mother-I didn't care-do what you must to save my child! That's what you have. Big Daddy is protecting us.

Unfortunately his followers haven't spent much time to figure out Bush did nothing that day, 9/11, let Bin Laden go free soon after (currently in the news) and ignored the Taliban pretty much after the few months they bombed them to bits to go into Iraq which apparently according to the polls I just read on other thread SOME still believe the propagnada of WMD being found and Saddam behind Al Queda. Don't underestimate fear. I've come from a family that stalled their life on it. Much comes down to that.

Speak out? FEAR? Change? FEAR. And yeah-fear that if I go against the powers that be I will lose my house, my car, and my nice big TV that I need to escape from my lousy job.

What is safety but another comfort? Fear is an aspect of freedom, too.

"And yeah-fear that if I go against the powers that be I will lose my house, my car, and my nice big TV that I need to escape from my lousy job."

The only time I watch TV these days is when I hear a Noam Chomsky or Michael Parenti or Chalmers Johnson, someone interesting that has something to say, is on CSPAN2's Bookclub. I used to be able to catch Democracy Now, but local cable access dropped them a while back. Other than that, my screen is dark, cold, and blank. It's still in the house, though (and to my regret), for the wife and kids.

Freeing onself from the television is, I think, a necessary first step away from the manufactured, nasty, controlling simulacrum that substitutes for the real world. Take that step, and you'll hear real birds chirping again, hear laughter in the streets and the wind through the trees -- while you're typing posts into DU at your desk, of course!

They may hate us partially for our greed. We've become a nation of spoiled people who gets off on being pampered. We also are an ignorant nation and far too many are almost proud of their ignorance.

One of those things most people don't see because it's just TOO obvious! And I'm as guilty as the next person, that's for damn sure...I hate being uncomfortable, even for a short time.

I think we have a national blind spot about this.

comfort begets apathy & apathy is what imo has propelled this most insidious remnant nixon/bush admin onto our political landscape sadly may-well nothing changes until the comfort zone becomes pinched

Found this very long but excellent analysis on ICH on the causes and arrival of American corporatism/police state. Valenzuela says it all and does not hold back. Among my favorite writers, I highly recommend his articles (new and archived) to anyone that has not discovered this gifted thinker... If indeed he is right we face scary times ahead.

Valenzuela's blog: www.valenzuelasveritas.blogspot.com

America's Tomorrow

America’s tomorrow will arrive like a thunderbolt created during an ominous storm of fear and psychological fragility, striking without warning, its concussion reverberating throughout the land. An attack by the enemy will be declared, its images aired repetitiously by the corporatist media, unleashing wave after wave of human emotion and tragedy for all of us to absorb. The attack will be horrific, a new Pearl Harbor reincarnated, devastating lives and infrastructure, its severity magnified a million-fold by the instruments of propaganda, the tools of power releasing a hypnotizing cocktail of fear, hatred and xenophobia amongst the citizenry.

Tens of millions of people will instantly become, once again, the marching army of drones and automatons for those in power, engendering legions of “good Americans,” their minds under the spell of human wickedness, ready to sacrifice their blood, children, treasure and freedom in the name of security, acting on animal instinct, looking at government for protection, willingly enslaving themselves to the dictates of criminals and murderers. Calls for vengeance abroad and greater security in the fatherland will emanate from our monitors, becoming the calls to prayer listened to by the faithful.

Under the pretext of securing the homeland from the terrorists wanting to destroy us for our cherished freedoms and democracy, the police state will be ushered in during the quiet hours of citizen fear and shock, blindly approved by the people themselves, preferring the modes of totalitarianism to being woken from their gluttony-filled, comfort-laden, fiction-living bubble. In the darkness of America’s chaotic nights the spot lights of draconian measures will be introduced, and the America of yesteryear’s dreams will abruptly vanish into the reality of America’s tomorrow.

It will all be a smoking mirror, of course, stirring the masses through the chimera of terrorism, placing in our own hands the guillotine used to self-decapitate our rights and freedoms, sacrificing liberty for so-called security, the futures of our children for so-called protection. Used to justify total corporatist domination over our lives, and our society, an attack upon an American city will be but the latest stage in our acrimonious and gradual descent into fascism. For the road we have decided to take, so tempting in its comfort and lavishness, yet so corrosive in its birth of ignorance and docility, has inevitably led to the rise of the corporate world, a Leviathan managed by the Establishment, over the years having grown all-powerful, its fangs deeply entrenched in the mechanisms used to create, alter and dominate society and culture.

Read the entire article at: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11403.htm

I agree with you, Valenzuela an excellent thinker and writer.

not the fundamentalist variety that offers easy to consume, McDonalds type spiritual food, but a deep and abiding realization that life is about far more than material goods. A return to the more essential things in life usually follows whenever people have a deeply spiritual experience. These often take the form of illness, death in the family or other life-shaking events. For America as a nation, I don't know what that experience will be. It doesn't necessarily have to be so traumatic though. The civil rights movement began in our churches, as did the abolitionist streak that eventually resulted in emancipation. If anything is going to help America return to a more balanced way of living, it will be God, however you may see Him

just my .02

DO YOU WANT TO SACRIFICE YOUR LIFESTYLE? They Answer: "HELL NO! I WANT MY KIDS SAFE FROM RAPISTS, PEDOPHILES and WOMEN WHO WANT ABORTIONS!

And...I'm still WAITING...for someone to save us from BUSH...but I really work so hard that I can't get involved with politics and my wife works too, so we hardly have time between Work and Kids to get involved...but we are hoping "YOU GUYS OUT THERE" will take care of it for us.

They are like Bush...they think that America has a "Poppy" who will come in and always save them... They don't realize...that WE do NOT have a POPPY/Carlisle Group and Think Tank Advocation working for "US" 24/7.

giving up her car for the good of the environment.

Well, she might have to, and it's actually quite a pleasant way to live if you have the proper supportive infrastructure, as I did in Portland.

...when they close down our McDonald's and Wal-marts and take our cable TVs and our TV remotes. Nothing matters until our own insulated, comfortable lives are affected. In any online debate I have seen about the wiretapping issue, those who most vigorously defend it almost always end their arguments by saying, "I have nothing to hide, so I have nothing to worry about." What these numbskulls don't realize is, this IS affecting us collectively, and it WILL affect them individually, most likely sooner rather than later.

I've been fed up for quite some time with the "I've got mine, so go fuck everybody else" attitude that only seems to have gotten much worse since Bushco took over. There are times when I truly believe that we, as a society, deserve whatever we have coming, but then I realize that the sentiment also includes the just along with the unjust, and that's not right, either.

I'm not sure we'll ever take America back. Maybe when we start giving a damn about things other than our own comfort and convenience, maybe. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

most were about expanding democracy and throwing down the arrogant aristocracy that thought it was the natural ruler of America. Now the aristocracy has figured out that pretending to care about cultural issues makes many people feel like they are respected, so they don't mind the aristocracy ruling over them.

The problem is aggravated by the fact that many people must work most of the time simply to survive, so they have no time to think about whether or not their rights are being upheld. Then there is the large class that has simply lost hope, or doesn't think it affects them.

Of course, we who understand haven't exactly been doing a bang-up job of reaching out to people and explaining ourselves, before our backs are against the wall. There are lots of biases and misunderstandings on our side as well

Truly, there is enough blame for every American to have his or her share.

ends of the political spectrum. Think of how many times someone here posts an "URGENT ACTION NEEDED" thread, only to have it drop like a stone. Ask people to Buy Blue, and they'll come up with a dozen reasons why doing so just doesn't fit their lifestyle. Click on a thread about how America's beef consumption hurts indigenous people in third world nations, and you'll see countless snarky "but animals are tasty" comments. They can't be bothered at all, we can't be bothered too much. The lack of will to enact change will bring a great deal of "discomfort" in the future, I fear.

people, like Margaret Mead:

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

what happened between Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, you will get more info that you want. If you ask what happened with the Reagen administration and El Salvador in the '80s you will get puzzled looks. That is the problem. A sense of priorities about what primary values and what are secondary ones. And the striving for flabby mental comfort hurts us more than the desire for creature comforts.

As Gore Vidal said in a recent interview, asked if Americans would "stand for" a military dictatorship, "They'll stand for anything. And they will stand for nothing."

and how left/liberals define the word seems to be very different. I think a lot about this, but still have no clarity.

Conservatives seem to worry a lot about someone "taking away their freedom" by asking them to accept those who are different,
or accept different ways of thinking than their own. They seem to find inclusiveness very threatening, and need to be around those who don't make them in any way uncomfortable in order to feel "free". Some Conservatives act like we Liberals have the power to force them to think things they don't wanna. After all, short of intense mind-control techniques, no one can stop you from thinking whatever you dang well please.

Perhaps what Conservative define as freedom is really safety. That's why some of them have no problem with the spying: They've been convinced it will make them safe.

Conservatives also sometimes say freedom when they really mean the right to remain isolated, and not have to relate to any sort of community.

That explains a lot about bigotry on the Right-they see it as a right, not an offense.

Of course, they can be as bigoted as they want to be. They just have to pay the price for it-and the price is to be called on it publically.

Bigots are mad cause we've made them feel bad about themselves. I think they view never being confronted (even indirectly) on their bigotry as part of their "freedom". When that "freedom" is trampled on, they turn their anger into all sorts of fantasies about how it's actually them getting discriminated against (There's a War against Christmas! Never mind that we're a country which is 80% Christian).

I've noticed a similar phenomenon around Freedom of Speech. Conservatives claim their ideas are not allowed to be heard when the real issue is that those ideas are disagreed with, or are simply untrue. (The main-stream media buying into this complaint is part of why there is so much untruth aired these days without question). There was a laughable example of this over on Huffpo the other day. Some troll was going on about how Liberals only believe in freedom of speech for themselves. Another poster responded, pointing out that the troll was airing his views on a liberal blog, unhampered. What the troll really meant was that the people at Huffpo didn't agree with him, and made fun of his posts. He defined that as his lack of "free speech".

It's long been my view that this is why Rush Limbaugh is so popular. He tells stupid, bigoted people that they don't have to change, that they're great just the way they are, in fact better than us snotty Liberals! His very existence says, "Look at me: I'm an unapologetic, ignorant pig, and its made me rich and famous!".

Bigots want to be free to practice bigotry, as if it should be a constitutional right to actively work against other people's rights. They can say what they want, but that doesn't mean that what they say is right, or that they should have extra protection from criticism that other people don't have.

in a song by the Tom Robinson Band that is even more chilling today. Unfortunately we have no meaningful tools with which to fight any longer:

Power in the darkness
Frightening lies from the other side
Power in the darkness
Stand up and fight for your rights

Freedom... we're talking bout your freedom
Freedom to choose what you do with your body
Freedom to believe what you like
Freedom for brothers to love one another
Freedom for black and white
Freedom from harassment, intimidation
Freedom for the mother and wife
Freedom from Big Brother's interrogation
Freedom to live your own life... I'm talking 'bout

Power in the darkness
Frightening lies from the other side
Power in the darkness
Stand up and fight for your rights

(Voice from The Other Side: ) "Today, institutions fundamental to the British system of Government are under attack: the public schools, the house of Lords, the Church of England, the holy institution of Marriage, even our magnificent police force are no longer safe from those who would undermine our society, and it's about time we said 'enough is enough' and saw a return to the traditional British values of discipline, obedience, morality and freedom.

What we want is:

Freedom from the reds and the blacks and the criminals
Prostitutes, pansies and punks
Football hooligans, juvenile delinquents
Lesbians and left wing scum
Freedom from the niggers and the Pakis and the unions
Freedom from the Gipsies and the Jews
Freedom from leftwing layabouts and liberals
Freedom from the likes of you..."

Power in the darkness
Frightening lies from the other side
Power in the darkness
Stand up and fight for your rights

I know I've heard that song before, but reading the words now, after 5 years of the Neocon nightmare, is a whole new experience!

what is the precipitating and overwhelming DIScomfort?

Everyone doesn't have a TV and cable.

Many people don't have a roof. Or the medicine they need. Or proper food for their children, let alone the proper clothes or school.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe any organism will endlessly chase what it needs.

This nation has been traumatized, purposefully, by its government. It is chasing balance, calm, safety.

The needs of this nation have long been ignored. Our elderly are left to die in natural disasters. And we suppress this knowledge.

I don't, won't bash our people for this. Instead, why not ask, what need has gone so unfullfilled for such a long time that we resort to fantasy to get us from one day to the next?

peace,
Beth

And they don't live in comfort by any stretch. That's by design too. Keep people poor, keep them having to work harder and harder just to get by, and they'll never have a chance to wonder what's going on around them. They stay compliant that way. Corporate America has that planned for all of us.

The difference in their case is that they don't brag about how free America is, and point to their possessions. They're too overworked to discuss it.

isn't the shortest route to escape the real misery of their lives. I wonder.

The number of the poor will grow, is growing now. Single moms are the group among the homeless that is growing the fastest -- not drug seeking males.

Poverty is the third party in America.

en masse, the increase in these numbers won't matter. (Of course, it may all be moot given the fact that Diebold's "counting" the votes.)

our image of ourselves we will be fighting with one paw tied behind our backs.

There is a sweet spot on the electorate, just like there is on a baseball bat.

The reality of our every day life. And most of our lives are not skinny or beautiful or easy or privileged.

It has been this party's strength to be able to embrace that diversity in past times.

It's time to do it again, and to mean it.

Cases like Pol Pot in Cambodia or the Red Guard era of Maoist China or Stalin's purges or the Terror after the French Revolution are rare and unsustainable.

While Hitler was tossing political dissidents into prison and putting increasing restrictions on Jews, and killing the disabled, he was also telling ordinary Gentile Germans how wonderful they were, putting people to work building the autobahns and weaponry, and instituting government freebies like free summer camps for children (where, of course, they were indoctrinated into Nazism). If you were not Jewish or disabled or politically aware, the early years of Nazi Germany seemed pretty good after starvation during World War I, political chaos and hyperinflation in the 1920s, and massive unemployment during the depression.

Latin American dictatorships, Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain, prewar Japan, and others, all followed this pattern. Oppress only political dissidents or disliked minority groups, and few people will care. In fact, they will stand in the plaza and cheer the dictator on the balcony.

scape goating in any form here.

Very timely reminder. Thank you. :)

Who cares about toxins in the environment released by factories poisoning our children when you can make people fear gay marriage or react in horror to the phrase 'happy holidays'. People don't have good jobs because of those cursed illegal aliens or those darned (insert name of ethnic group). It couldn't be because corporations are moving good jobs over seas or out and out screwing grandma millie in the manner of enron. example is the catholic church going after gay priests instead of the child predators. They want people to fear the gays instead of rooting out those who harm children.

or "i'm not hurting, so I won't complain". Unfortunately I am related to people like this who somehow go though life with utter lack of empathy for anyone outside their nuclear family. Those are the ones I take issue with, not those who lack necessities.

re: traumatized - 9/11 was a national trauma giving so many ptsd, which encrouaged people to not look at what was being done in their name because it was claimed to make them safer. as if we were all children wanting a strong parent ot make the monsters go away. could the biggest problem be that underneight the hyperpatriotism and rage actually exists terrified people who are desperate to not face the fear? better to be angry and blow something up, even if it isn' the right bad guys, than accept that we can never be 100% safe. attatching electrodes to every known terrorist in the world won't mmean no one will ever get hurt again but it sure makes people feel powerful for a few minutes. sorry to ramble, it is late and I dispair of ever comprehending how so many are willing to embrace false promises of protection no matter the cost to other human beings.

:)

There are wings of my family who seem to practice "as long as my family is okay, I don't care" but if that illusion is pressed, there is always an issue, always somewhere this criminal government has impinged upon their life.

As for the retraumatizing -- remember the terror alerts? Remember they were little more than thinly veiled threats and the American people heard them over and over and over. People tuned out to protect their sanity. Which would seem to be the intended effect.

We are in an abusive relationship with our government.

What happened to old-fashioned energy conservation?

How about shunning Wally World and buying local and made in USA?

Put the squeeze on. Any takers? :shrug:

But right now there's a minority of people that are even awake enough to see how the system works. We need to have a lot of people buying and living responsibly for it to be effective, otherwise there's no squeeze. And if the asleep don't know or believe that there is a problem, then they are going to keep going the route they already do.

The television has brainwashed the masses, all for corporate profits. When you stop and actively approach an "infected" with news and information, it's surprising how many of them ARE unhappy with the state of the union and DO want to see changes.

The political process itself needs more exposure.

In order to live free and happily, you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice-R. Bach; "Illusions"

ding ding ding!

Murkans are fat, lazy, complacent and ultimately stupid

(and have very short attention spans (about a handful of potato chips worth) and are very easily misled

is that Americans are on the whole more humble than that, and 'freedom' is two things. Most of us are not so daring or creative, by happenstance or choice, to need much more than physical and material/consumer autonomy. That's one kind of 'freedom'. The other, realer, freedom is that mostly of other people, but on occasion ours too, to do the genuinely courageous and creative and unpopular stuff most people will not- and we all benefit from in some fashion, ultimately.

I agree that Americans are sadly fixated on the first of the two and the people who are fools enough to believe in that alone are feeling vindicated.

I think you're being simplistic about the second. The present social condition is, as I perceive it, on average a kind of broad post-traumatic stress state maybe closest to fatigued depression or burnout. War fatigue, be it the Culture War or War On Terror or Iraq or political partisanship. Whatever is going on in American society that is courageous or creative or unpopular-but-right simply isn't getting sustaining social or political followup.

In this situation the second kind of freedom, creative freedom and the freedom of other people, is in principle a good thing but in practice simply isn't producing much for American society to use. Suppressing it changes very little in the short term at present.

But in the longer term there is a real need that builds up as a psychological pressure. I think if everything continues as it is, and all indications are that way, we're headed for a period of seeming mainstream lethargy with small groups of the creatively most frustrated people breaking into guerilla action- guerilla art, guerilla political actions. The fermenting mainstream lethargy (my guess is that it's about bad conservative beliefs/fears slowly disintegrating among passive moderate voters) and its eventual breaking down is where the great political change and change of social atmosphere to liberalish and permissive and life-affirming again is going to be during the next year, imho. The guerilla stuff could be a lot of fun in the meantime.

So, I'm more sanguine about the present than you are- but see reason for real optimism about the next year or two.

I agree that Americans are sadly fixated on the first of the two and the people who are fools enough to believe in that alone are feeling vindicated.
That's what I am trying to get at. Post WWII, the country began to shift towards consumeris, where the American Dream became less about any child could grow up to be President, and more about growing up to be rich.

I think you're being simplistic about the second. The present social condition is, as I perceive it, on average a kind of broad post-traumatic stress state maybe closest to fatigued depression or burnout. War fatigue, be it the Culture War or War On Terror or Iraq or political partisanship. Whatever is going on in American society that is courageous or creative or unpopular-but-right simply isn't getting sustaining social or political followup.
Undoubtedly 9/11 still has an impact for some Americans, and that isn't helped at all by the media holding it over our heads continuously. However, I beleive that it is being used not only to keep PTSD going, but to reinforce comfort slavery. For example, what was Bush's answer to people's fears of terrorists? Buy more stuff.
When I talk about the average American I'm really talking about 2 groups. One group is the working poor, who has to work multiple jobs just to get by. They just don't have the time to keep up with current events, so they remain uninformed about what their choices really could be. Really, they are need-driven, not comfort-driven, and if they had the time to have things explained to them it might make a difference. The other group is the comfortable middle class. They have worked hard (most of them) to get where they are, and have been told indirectly that working hard equals good citizen. As a result, they believe that the comforts they receive from their status are an end in themselves, as reward for being a good citizen (working hard). It's very difficult to get through to this group, because comfort is an addictive state, and noncritical thinking is comfortable-no need to spend time analzing things, just react from the gut.

off their butts - their comfort level. it will be a terrible day when that happens too.

Really, if you are not doing anything wrong, what is the problem with a little surveillance? You shouldn't be doing anything in public that you wouldn't want caught on tape anyway, given that nearly anybody might have a video camera, camera phone or digicam. And the same goes for public buildings, where the businesses have every right to put up cameras to protect their property. When you are online or on the phone, you should be keeping your communications clean. After all, they could easily be intercepted or otherwise picked up even if the government was not actively checking on you for your own safety. A little proactivity goes a long way. Only the criminals have anything to fear. Big Brother is actually your friend.













BTW, the above was utter :sarcasm:.

into being quite accepting of increasing camera surveillance because of years of perceiving the government as being at least benign - on up to beneficial - for the citizens with the very generous social programs of the past.

Things are changing here now, people's peceptions of government too, but maybe too late?

DemEx

The ball has begun rolling and it may be too late to stop it. The TSA folks are already clamping down on people who have the wrong facial expressions and mannerisms. It can only go downhill from there. We have truly entered the world of 1984, where an errant facial tic can get you turned into the Thought Police. :scared:

come to realize that comfort becomes extremely difficult without freedom. I hope so.

we are looking for risk-free living too. We think we are entitled to have it all--and have it forever without any cost. That's why we're depending on an amoral, dictatorial murdering thug to keep us "safe."

,...or have already lost something of great importance and/or value, I'm not sure their apathy can be overcome. They are living in a semi-dream-state or brainwashed. It's weird. But, almost everything they digest is fiction, televised and/or written fiction, via either teevee and other media.

:shrug: I do all I can do,...discuss the state of our nation's policies with people.

I agree with every word of your post. The Matrix allusion is dead on, the American People have been kept in a false reality and dumbed down by the MSM for the sole purpose as to make us easier puppets to use. We as a nation are going to pay a tragic price for this self imposed ignorance and the betrayal by our so called "fourth estate".

Kicked and Nominated :kick:

i don't get yr point because i don't see anything inherently wrong in seeking comfort, it's the only thing besides seeking glory that has caused the great inventions from agriculture to the better mousetrap to cortisone anti-itch cream to be invented

if we are truly free, of course we seek comfort and happiness, it's just common sense

And in and of itself, it has no bearing on our current reality. We seek comfort whether we are truly free or not.

The problem arises when we confuse comfort with freedom. Americans have traditionally pointed to their standard of living as proof that our society is better-for example, the biggest argument against the Soviet system throughout the 70's and 80's concerned their goods distribution system, and how Soviet citizens had to stand in long lines and had few luxuries. It doesn't constitute proof of a freer system or freer people. While the Soviet system was harder on its citizens that the US system was, it was not because we had more consumer goods than they did. Still people argue that we are a free nation, and point to the fact that they own things.

Those that confuse freedom with material riches run the risk of losing both eventually.