Don't Quit Supporting Us (Troops).

DU,

After the Haditha incident, I'm sensing a little outrage and almost resentment towards all service members by some of the members on the board(s) around here.

I understand your ire, and mine is high, also but bear this in mind. We are the lowest crust of the nation, getting paid low wages to do high risk/high stress jobs. I could go into the macho egoisms of "We're here to kick ass for you" or the empathetic "We're doing it for college money" cliches, but I would just like to tell you that most of us service folk are just trying to do the right things for us, our families and our country. We are put into situations that are less savory because it is our duties, and we understand this when we sign the lines.

So, DU, We as rational, loving people understand there are savages and evil people out there who will use the military to kill innocents, promote hate, and even damage our country, but please do not mix those in with the rest of us.

We love our country and fight for a collective of individuals who make up this great nation. Thanks for your time.

-truenotes

which, to a large extent, is tolerant of these acts.

The good soldiers have it bad. We've put them in the worst position they could possibly be.

WAR CRIMES FOR BUSH.

to that phrase "Don't shoot the messenger". But hey, it's America..if you choose to dislike servicemembers, then it is your right, however it should be logical to force your anger in the direction(s) it needs to be in.

His responsibility. Then Rumsfeld. They should have been cracking heads over this 6 months ago. Better still--they should have demanded that CO's address troops directly on rules of combat and adherence to Geneva Conventions.

And although I do hold the administration, and every lawmaker that that allowed this to happen, ultimately responsible, murder is murder. I'm waiting it out for the investigations to continue and reveal what happened. But indeed if it washes out that American military were evil enough to commit such crimes... then you call them what they are. Not the entire military. The ones responsible.
Just as a pedophile is a pedophile, no matter how they got that way (the circle of abuse) Excusing the crime dismisses the horror of the victim, nevermind the justice they deserve.

Especially the 2nd or 3rd tours of duty.

Mookie,
Walter Reed Platelet donor

..that helped so much the last time their asses got hung out to dry by politicians in Washington:

Sir! No Sir!

http://www.sirnosir.com/

Thanks for writing and thanks for trying to do your best for us. I know the pressures you are under are enormous. I'm sorry if you've felt anyone here was blaming you personally for the mess we're in in Iraq. All my blaming is reserved for the people who lied and manipulated to send you there.

And my only goal now is to get you all safely home as quickly as possible. Take care -- and thank you.

It's encouraging :). I've been away from family and home for 2 years now and have only taken 14 days of leave because of "Personnel Issues". So even the Navy is feeling the tugging effects of the war.

But, I'll be in Biloxi again soon. Sure it's a hotbed of Neocons, but mom and dad's catfish is only 8 hours away!

Love you guys

or other such garbage, is as equally decrepit as the Bush supporters out there. The two factions should get together and form their own Worst Of America party.

Brentspeak is in your corner, true notes.

even Iraqis and Afghan citizens?

Should I cloud my judgement of responsibility because I'm an American? There's very little of the 'mission' that these troops are supporting, outside of a general concern for everyone's well-being, that deserves any of our approval. Ultimately, the entire operation supports the muckraking that creates the casualties.

What purpose does it serve to seperate the soldiers from the mission they're performing? We can assign blame for individual acts, we can assign different levels of blame, but we shouldn't ignore the collective responsibility that these troops bear for the chaos and tragedy there, however misguided.

To Iraqis who bear the brunt of the acts we rationalize, there is little distinction given between those who ordered them there and the ones who support and carry out the violence. We should understand and appreciate their reality as we care for our own soldiers well-being and reputation.

volunteer troops weren't out there, Bush would be drafting other young men and women. It isn't the volunteer soldiers that put us in this mess, it's our government.

And we are just as responsible for the actions of our government, heinous as they may be, as the soldiers that are following the orders. We're paying the taxes. We're not all out in the streets. We're not all in jail.

Are we.

with great sadness and humility.

I feel, myself, a murderer.

It's why so many of us are so sick about this. What a horror.

I have been active and loud in my opposition to this war since before the IWR. None of this is being done on my behalf. It's being done in spite of me, not because of me.

Please stop asking me to take responsibility for this war. I won't.

But I don't think this absolves me from responsibility -- because I live in a democracy. It just adds to my profound frustration.

things done in its name. No one kills in my name. No one.

I've opposed it from the beginning and before the beginning, ever since it became obvious Bush was looking for an excuse for an imperialistic war of aggression. I opposed it so I would NOT be called a murderer, and dammit, I won't be called one now!

Anyone with half a brain knew it was only a matter of time before there was another My Lai. It's inevitable in situations like this.

on cheap, shoddy lies.

It's time for us to get the fuck out of Iraq. Period.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

But we shouldn't smear all soldiers because of the actions of a few.

Deleting my posts will not make the truth go away.

How do you know that. Are you in Iraq?

of how many civilians we have murdered. Also the rapes and sexual assaults of Iraqi women by American troops are being discussed abroad.

Good luck to you. I know this is a very hard piece to face.
You are not alone in wanting this to all go away. But it won't.

preexisting mental disorder? And we're keeping in there, no matter how sick, because of the troop shortage. Since you are, with good reason, concerned about the actions of our troops, I urge you to read this. And then make sure you contact your representatives in Congress.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1338486&mesg_id=1338486

They are sending over anyone with a heartbeat.

So some of the men may be mentally ill when they go over.
Others develop PTSD while there. Some are zonked out on booze and hashish.

It is a mixed bag, but the result is the same. Very very bad.

Thanks for the URL. I will go look at it now.

speak out. It is your karma, but before you delete this post,
please look into your conscience and find a way to support this cause. Please. I send you light and love and hope you can find wisdom and strength to do the right thing.

And please do what you can to help the women and children of Iraq. They need our help desperately, their lives are a living hell.

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You're smearing everyone with your broad brush. This was a horrible crime, but the other soldiers are no more responsible than you are.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

What a stupid fucking statment that was to make...

I'm not making excuses for anyone.

I'm just pointing out how fucking stupid it is to make such a comparison.

Having stress at a job, is not anything like the stress of warfare.

Stress is no excuse for murdering civilians.

But it's also not fair to compare stress from war, to stress of daily life...

We know that these things have been going on for years by American troops.

So if our troops are stressed and have PTSD, it is OK
to rape women and kill babies.

As you can see sir, when you try to defend the indefensible
you get into very shaky ground.

"OK to rape women and kill babies."

We're just saying that you should blame the ones that are responsible, the ones that did it AND the higher-ups, but not the other soldiers who had no control over or involvement in that situation.

being low paid and stressed is a good rationale for murder.

If the mods would stop deleting my posts it would be clear that I have been fair and polite.

approving it, supporting it, even if the others you support are not doing these despicable things.

That is the point.

I'm not the one on shakey ground here.

The fucking idiots that think battlefield stress is somehow comparable to the everyday stresses of life are on shakey ground.

To make such a comparison is like the idiots that say Washington D.C. is more dangerous than Baghdad.

and children will stop.

I hope you can find it in your heart and soul to do the same. And to support those who are doing their best to speak out despite being criticized and flamed.

And I stand by my statement. Being stressed out and low paid is not an excuse for murder of infants. That is what I said and I stand by it.

I am not your enemy. Instead of twisting my words around to fight with me, take your energy and speak out to save the women and children of Iraq. Before it is too late and they are all dead.

I am sending light and love to you right now. I hope you can feel it. Try to do the right thing.

they've done is ok.

I have done everything I can do to stop this mess, but guess what. NOTHING HAS BEEN GOOD ENOUGH BECAUSE WE ARE BEING RUN BY FASCISTS IN BOTH PARTIES.

So don't sit there and say the guys over there are under comparable stress as an office worker, because that is utter bullshit. Does it excuse this massacre? Hell no it doesn't, but to suggest these guys are under everyday stress is just fucking stupid.

Take your good mind and fight the good fight, for the babies of Iraq. Do what you can to help the ones who will be murdered if we
cannot stop the madness. And for the women who will be raped by US troops.

Can't you feel their pain and their terror?

Sorry to say, you are wasting your time trying to convince me to your point of view. I will never ever for all eternity change my mind on this topic. As God is my witness.

And I am willing to get deleted, flamed, criticized and tossed off DU if it comes to that. We must stop the slaughter, rape, torture of innocents. We must.

into battle with preexisting serious mental disorders -- recruiting mentally ill recruits out of HALF-WAY homes and sending them into combat -- is a recipe for disaster.

ChimpeachChimpeachChimpeachChimpeachChimpeachChimpeach
Chimp image in my mind as the most sickf**k Liar for greed
who sent them there where he would NEVER have gone himself
It's BU$H's fault It's BU$H's fault It's BU$H's fault

Too many here have served themselves or have family serving.

Nothing they do will make me stop working on the helmet liner for a DUer's daughter in Iraq or a pair of socks for Binka's son, a wounded vet. Nothing they do will stop me from sending care packages to someone from anysoldier.com or helping out vets when they get home.

I seriously doubt anyone here would ever stop supporting the troops. There's nothing they could do that would make us stop supporting and loving those we know and those we consider our brothers and sisters, sons and daughters in this great country.

as my son is one of them, and all his buddies that I know.. I could not see these guys doing what was done in Haditha.. We should put the blame squarely where it belongs. This administration, and PNAC for their visions of middle east domination.....



Those who did the act will pay for their crimes, one way or another... I am sure it will haunt them for the rest of their lives.....

War really is hell. The continued pressure that Rummsy is putting on our troops means that sooner or later some will "crack".

The marines at Haditha will live with what they have done all their lives. Although I can't condone what they did, none of us were in their shoes - or rather, boots - and none of us know how we would have reacted in their place.

Although I wasn't there, I imagine that those troops were victims themselves. I honestly believe they would not have done this except for the extreme undue pressure placed on them by the policies of this administration.

If we had followed Murtha's plan, this would not have happened.

It's amusing (in a morbid way) that a man who was in Vietnam(Murtha) and saw the worst of it all gets the "Lunatic" badge when he tells of his stories/methods about war.

But I guess the neanderthal Conservative mind always backs with the Fable Teller vice the Non-Fiction Author.

actual fighting. Sad.

So you'll never have to pick up a rifle again.

Home. Now. Period.

actions of a few. My support of the troops will be to bring them home.

They are there based on lies and deception.
I expect more from our military. They are trained professionals.

Most of them are serving honorably, in an intolerable situation. They have my support.

When you say you're fighting for a collective of individuals, please exclude me from that collective. You're not doing it in my name.

then he's fighting for you because the U. S. government put him there. If we have an argument, it's with the selected-President, not the soldiers who are trying to do their jobs.

He no longer fights for me. I don't bear him (or her) any ill will, but when members of the U.S. working class are fighting members of the Iraqi working class, they aren't doing it for me or in my name.

So am I, much as I hate it.

the powerless are not responsible for what the powerful do.

Most didn't say a word. I don't consider those who gave silent consent "good Germans". I worked against this war. I have not been silent. I am not complicit.

some degree of responsibility simply because I am a citizen of the country.

You just happen to have been born here. Doesn't make you complicit with everything Bush does. Especially since he stole the elections. In a real democracy, you might have a point (maybe), but not in a dictatorship.

to the war, is fighting to keep diagnosed mentally ill troops out of combat. I don't see how even the Repubs can argue with that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1338486&mesg_id=1338486

"killing people and breaking things" is an honorable vocation. I don't expect better screening anytime soon.

ASAP. It's been a losing cause from the very beginning.

get me a partial waiver? How about going to two weekly anti-war vigils since October 1, 2001 and plenty of additional anti-war demos and marches?

I wrote that I have spiritually seceded as prelude to physical and financial secession. Just waiting to see what happens in Nov '06 before I take the next step(s).

I've opposed this war in every way I can. They're not doing this for me.

Dear True-Notes,

I think most everyone would agree with me when I say that we do support you.
We appreciate you and worry about you.

This was not a war you started but it is what you have been made to fight whether you agree with the motivation or not.

Personally, I think the outrage is that higher ups have yet to be assigned any culpability on Haditha, Abu Graib and so on.
I am angry that it is the real folks that are taking all the heat, getting tried and jailed.
These are atrocious events but to ONLY vilify the soldiers is fcked up.
Is it the fault of the factory worker for dumping toxic waste into a river or is it the fault of the company bigwigs?

On the back of my car I keep reflective number stickers that show the daily number of our dead troops.
There is a US Flag and a Support Our Troops/ Bring them Home Alive bumper sticker - so people don't think that the numbers are meant badly. I intend it as a tribute and bearing-witness .

I cannot imagine what it must really be like to be in a war. When I try to really think about it , well, it makes me sick.
The constant level of alertness and tension must be horrible. Such constant extremity is bound to bring out the extreme side of humanity.
Not always good, not always bad.

Not to day that the actual perpetrators are blameless. Not at all. But to "not support the troops" as if you were all a bunch of sadistic monsters? No fcking way.

"Hang in there" iseems such a weak thing to say to you but I do mean it sincerely.

-eek

I think there's just a lot of shock that babies were shot. It's almost impossible to believe. But I don't think anyone thinks this is universal behavior.

I understand, but there's something I'd like to share...

I wasn't even born when the Vietnam war was raging, so all I know of it is pop-culture's take on it. I watch movies, old newsreels, etc and the guys over in Vietnam had it GENUINELY ROUGH, however they came home after a long war only to be called baby killers and murderers.

Most of these guys undoubtedly did not do these things, and carried semi-normal lives afterwards, but will always have that tag attached to them.

I for one do not want that for my military. I want progression.

much less post here.

Thanks for talking.

But I'm a liberal, and this is where I feel welcome.

Fuggem!

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

In a democracy, the "pecking order" is: The People -> The Government -> The Military

Our service people are in service to our nation - and a 'nation' is the people, not the dirt and not the government. If we allow your service to be misused or abused, it's OUR FAULT!

I think Democratic politicians ought to use your saying whenever they talk about the war.

Sadly, enough Americans and politicians wanted to 'kick ass' in Iraq and supported Bush.

Those servicemen and women you describe, including my friend Rebecca, currently serving in Iraq.

Pasted here with the Bloggers permission.

I'm against this clumsy, assinine war. And my form of protest, my way of saying "Bring Our Troops Home," is to send a little bit of home to our troops. If we can't have them back on American soil where they belong, then dammit, at least we can make sure these poor kids die with some Chips Ahoy in their pockets and a little cherry Chapstick on their lips. And make no mistake -- they ARE dying.

One Saturday morning I was riding the bus to Atlantic City with my friend Toni. Her husband Ron is stationed on an air base in Afghanistan, and she was telling me that she'd just sent him a care package with a few of his favorite things -- roasted red peppers in a jar, Nutella. And she mentioned that the other soldiers always got jealous of Ron's care packages, because so few of them received goodies of their own.

I was stunned. "What? You mean, their spouses don't send them anything? Girlfriends, parents, friends? Nothing?" It was such a depressing thought. In fact, it was downright pissing me off.

"Well that's it." I decided on the spot. "I'm going to send Ron's unit a care package. What do they need? Will you ask Ron? And will you e-mail the address?"

Back at work on Monday, I spent a glorious lunch hour in the drug store across the street, filling a cart with anything I could imagine a soldier in the Afghan desert might want or need. I never enjoyed a shopping spree so much. I'd learned that many things we deem necessities aren't automatically provided by the military to the troops in the Middle East. The most requested items from Ron's unit were decidedly unglamorous: Soap. Clean Socks. Sunscreen. Lotion. Lip Balm. Hand Wipes.

I filled my cart with muscle salves and men's magazines; sunscreen and battery-operated pocket fans; wasabi peas, Peeps (it was Easter time), and variety packs of kiddie breakfast cereals; aspirin, Pepto-Bismol, eye drops, insoles, Pringles, Pop Tarts, a Chia herb garden.

Then I got another idea.

I sent an e-mail around my office. "My friend Ron is stationed at an Air Force base in Afghanistan...I'm sending a care package to his unit...if you'd like to donate anything to the package, please bring it to me before Friday at 3:00 PM..."

The generosity of my co-workers was deeply touching. Donated items flooded in. Hard working secretaries returned from their lunch breaks with overflowing shopping bags of treats and toiletries. An anonymous bag full of sunscreen, cookies and bubble gum appeared on my desk chair early one morning. One woman, a would-be chef, stayed up late one night baking cookies and banana bread for the soldiers. And by the end of the week, I'd filled FIVE copy paper boxes, to bulging capacity, with goodies. (And I noted, with tsk-ing tongue, that the entire shipment was made possible exclusively by support staff. That is, not a single six or seven-figure-earning attorney in my office gave as much as a pack of gum to the project. As my grandmother would say with a melodramatic quaver, "For sha-a-ame, for sha-a-ame!")

In less than a week, a series of photos came to me via e-mail. A hulking black helicopter landing on a parched landscape. Familiar boxes being unloaded and opened. Ron hauling the boxes in the back of a jeep around the base, and soldiers of both sexes gathered enthusiastically around the opened packages with broad, child-like grins. One joyous airman held up the bag of bubblegum for the camera; another flashed a copy of FHM magazine with a bikini model on the cover and smiled a priceless, devilish smile. One freckled female soldier with a disarming Irish grin reminded me of Anne of Green Gables and looked no more than twelve years old. Her body was strapped with a gun that was almost as big as she was. She beamed at the camera with a handful of Handi-Wipes. And in midtown Manhattan, a group of legal secretaries couldn't keep back the tears. Ron told me in an e-mail that the troops said it felt like Christmas day.

My co-workers said they wanted to do it again. It had been so easy to make these miserable kids happy. Instead of feeling powerless and at the mercy of a corrupt and seemingly untouchable government, we all felt extraordinarily powerful. The effect we had was quick and direct. The packages were cheap to send. They arrived on the base with startling speed. And the things the servicemen and women wanted and needed didn't cost a fortune, and with cooperative effort, our office could fill a box practically overnight. Misery--> Action--> TRANSFORMATION. If you knew it would be so easy to soothe and comfort another human being, to bring them a moment of light-heartedness in the midst of uncertainty and harsh circumstances, wouldn't you?

So now, as a permanent fixture on the floor beside my desk, there is always an open box with a sign on it reading "Operation Care Package". (Thanks to Sgt. Ron for the name!) On payday, I drop a few items in -- some practical, some fun. Bottles of bubbles, Ben-Gay. Pistachios, maxi pads. Gradually, other items fill the box from other donors. Last week, a Fed Ex box arrived from our firm's New Jersey office. Word of "Operation Care Package" had spread and I received a parcel of lollipops, lip balm, antiperspirants. One or more boxes go out to the air base every other week.

Wanna send your own care packages overseas? Visit Soldiers' Angels and adopt a soldier of your very own. Even more than the stuff you send, these men and women are appreciative of the fact that someone is THINKING of them. I encourage you to get involved. It's a rewarding, no-nonsense way to actively "SUPPORT OUR TROOPS".

http://www.hailqueenk.blogspot.com/

You all, as rational, loving people should quit your jobs en masse and demand - I'll help - that the government re-employ you in jobs that help people instead of hurt people.

The military is a machine designed to kill people. Whatever job anyone does in the military is to support the people who kill people.

US troops do not make us safer. US troops put us in danger.

The military should stand down. No standing military. Period.

I am not enraged about Haditha, Abu Sifa, Abu Ghraib, Iraq.

I am enraged by those events & by the decades upon decades of human rights abuses committed by US Military and CIA in over 250 intervention's since World War II & by my fellow citizens unwillingness to recogize the evil acts committed in our names.

Killing Hope - Over 250 Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II by William Blum

If you flip over the rock of American foreign policy of the past century, this is what crawls out ... invasions ... bombings ... overthrowing governments ... suppressing movements for social change ... assassinating political leaders ... perverting elections ... manipulating labor unions ...manufacturing "news" ... death squads ...torture ... biological warfare ...depleted uranium ... drug trafficking ...mercenaries ...

It's not a pretty picture.
It is enough to give imperialism a bad name.

Read the full details in:
Killing Hope - Over 250 Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II by William Blum

"Far and away the best book on the topic." Noam Chomsky

Table of Contents
Introduction
1. China - 1945 to 1960s: Was Mao Tse-tung just paranoid?
2. Italy - 1947-1948: Free elections, Hollywood style
3. Greece - 1947 to early 1950s: From cradle of democracy to client state
4. The Philippines - 1940s and 1950s: America's oldest colony
5. Korea - 1945-1953: Was it all that it appeared to be?
6. Albania - 1949-1953: The proper English spy
7. Eastern Europe - 1948-1956: Operation Splinter Factor
8. Germany - 1950s: Everything from juvenile delinquency to terrorism
9. Iran - 1953: Making it safe for the King of Kings
10. Guatemala - 1953-1954: While the world watched
11. Costa Rica - Mid-1950s: Trying to topple an ally - Part 1
12. Syria - 1956-1957: Purchasing a new government
13. Middle East - 1957-1958: The Eisenhower Doctrine claims another backyard for America
14. Indonesia - 1957-1958: War and pornography
15. Western Europe - 1950s and 1960s: Fronts within fronts within fronts
16. British Guiana - 1953-1964: The CIA's international labor mafia
17. Soviet Union - Late 1940s to 1960s: From spy planes to book publishing
18. Italy - 1950s to 1970s: Supporting the Cardinal's orphans and techno-fascism
19. Vietnam - 1950-1973: The Hearts and Minds Circus
20. Cambodia - 1955-1973: Prince Sihanouk walks the high-wire of neutralism
21. Laos - 1957-1973: L'Armée Clandestine
22. Haiti - 1959-1963: The Marines land, again
23. Guatemala - 1960: One good coup deserves another
24. France/Algeria - 1960s: L'état, c'est la CIA
25. Ecuador - 1960-1963: A text book of dirty tricks
26. The Congo - 1960-1964: The assassination of Patrice Lumumba
27. Brazil - 1961-1964: Introducing the marvelous new world of death squads
28. Peru - 1960-1965: Fort Bragg moves to the jungle
29. Dominican Republic - 1960-1966: Saving democracy by getting rid of democracy
30. Cuba - 1959 to 1980s: The unforgivable revolution
31. Indonesia - 1965: Liquidating President Sukarno ... and 500,000 others
East Timor - 1975: And 200,000 more
32. Ghana - 1966: Kwame Nkrumah steps out of line
33. Uruguay - 1964-1970: Torture -- as American as apple pie
34. Chile - 1964-1973: A hammer and sickle stamped on your child's forehead
35. Greece - 1964-1974: "Fuck your Parliament and your Constitution," said
the President of the United States
36. Bolivia - 1964-1975: Tracking down Che Guevara in the land of coup d'etat
37. Guatemala - 1962 to 1980s: A less publicized "final solution"
38. Costa Rica - 1970-1971: Trying to topple an ally -- Part 2
39. Iraq - 1972-1975: Covert action should not be confused with missionary work
40. Australia - 1973-1975: Another free election bites the dust
41. Angola - 1975 to 1980s: The Great Powers Poker Game
42. Zaire - 1975-1978: Mobutu and the CIA, a marriage made in heaven
43. Jamaica - 1976-1980: Kissinger's ultimatum
44. Seychelles - 1979-1981: Yet another area of great strategic importance
45. Grenada - 1979-1984: Lying -- one of the few growth industries in Washington
46. Morocco - 1983: A video nasty
47. Suriname - 1982-1984: Once again, the Cuban bogeyman
48. Libya - 1981-1989: Ronald Reagan meets his match
49. Nicaragua - 1981-1990: Destabilization in slow motion
50. Panama - 1969-1991: Double-crossing our drug supplier
51. Bulgaria 1990/Albania 1991: Teaching communists what democracy is all about
52. Iraq - 1990-1991: Desert holocaust
53. Afghanistan - 1979-1992: America's Jihad
54. El Salvador - 1980-1994: Human rights, Washington style
55. Haiti - 1986-1994: Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?
56. The American Empire - 1992 to present

Appendix I: This is How the Money Goes Round
Appendix II: Instances of Use of United States Armed Forces Abroad, 1798-1945
Appendix III: U. S. Government Assassination Plots

On Edit: New title.

I'm a stric pacifist, for religious reasons. I can't "support" anyone whose job is to kill. And ultimately, that's the very purpose of the military. I can't and won't support it. And I'm tired of feeling pressured to say I do.

I was just curious if such a place existed today.
'A country without military'... Wikipedia had a few listed, to my surprise!
But they DO rely on other countries for their defenses!

I don't think anyone is 'pressuring' YOU to say you support the military.
But you do enjoy the safety their existance affords you, unless you live in one of the countries below.
Do you?
Well, not ALL the countries listed below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_an_army
LIST OF COUNTRIES WITHOUT ARMED FORCES

Country -------------------------Comments

Andorra - Defense of the country is the responsibility of France or Spain.
Similar treaties with both, June 3, 1993.

Costa Rica - The constitution forbids a standing military in times of peace since 1949.
Seat of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights.
Seat of the United Nations University of Peace.

Dominica - No standing army since 1981, after the army attempted a coup.
Defence is the responsiblity of the United States.

Grenada - No standing army since 1983, after the American-led invasion.
Defence is the responsiblity of the United States.

Haiti - Disbanded on June, 1995, but rebels have demanded its re-establishment.
The National Police maintains some military units.

Iceland - No standing army, but is a member of NATO.
There is a defence agreement with the U.S.,
which maintains, along with other NATO countries, a base in the country.
Maintains an expeditionary peacekeeping force, Coast Guard and an Armed Police unit.

Kiribati - The only forces permitted are the police and the coast guard.

Liechtenstein - Abolished their army in 1868 because it was too costly.
Depends on Switzerland for defence. Army does not exist in times of peace.

Maldives - Has no army since its independence on 1965.
Was invaded by mercenaries in 1988, and rescued by India.
No known permanent defence treaty.

Marshall Islands - Defence is the responsibility of the United States.

Mauritius - A multicultural country without an army since 1968.

Micronesia - Defence is the responsibility of the United States.

Monaco - Renounced its military investment in the 17th century because the expansion
of ranges of artillery had rendered it defenceless. Defence is the responsibility of France.

Nauru - Under an informal agreement, defence is the responsibility of Australia.

Palau - The only country with an anti-nuclear constitution.
Defence is the responsibility of the United States.

Panama - Abolished their army in 1990, confirmed by a parliamentary unanimous vote
for constitutional change in 1994. Some units within the Public Force
(Police, Coast Guard, Air Service and Institutional Security) have limited warfare capabilities.

San Marino - Maintains a ceremonial guard, a police and a border force.

Solomon Islands - Has known a heavy ethnic conflict between 1998 and 2001,
in which Australia and other Pacific countries finally intervened to restore peace and order.
No standing army.

Saint Kitts and Nevis - Maintains a small defence force for internal purposes.

Saint Lucia - Maintains a special service unit.

Saint Vincent and the Grenadines - Maintains a special service unit.

Samoa - No standing army. Defence is the responsibility of New Zealand.

Tuvalu - Has no army, but its police force includes a Maritime Surveillance Unit.

Vanuatu - Has a small mobile military force.

Vatican City - The ceremonial Swiss Guard acts as a security police force.

The threat of terrorism increases with every Haditha, every Abu Sifa, every Abu Ghraib, every invasion of a foreign nation. I do not "enjoy" the safety the military brings, I worry about the consequences of the military's behavior.

I will not say I support what I don't support.

military making us 'less safe'.

The military didn't decide to invade Iraq. They don't make policy.

It's THE POLICIES of the FUCKING NEO-CONS!!!!!

If you don't live in any of the countries I posted, then you do enjoy the safety of the military.
You live under that protection, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

I'm a religious pacifist. I believe violence begets violence. I never asked for there to be a military, and I have no voice in this nation. There happens to be a military, and I may pay the price when its behavior comes around to bite us in the ass (and it will). But I don't have to voice support for it.

And Pentagon leadership is neo-con. Two sides of the same coin.

I, too, have opposed the war, the invasion of Iraq. I have also demonstrated against it.
But that won't stop a bomb or a bullet or an invader.
Although I applaud your peaceful motivations, I think it's unrealistic.

but I take a look at realism, and I'm not impressed.

If "the threat of terrorism increases with every Haditha, etc...", as you claim, why is it that 9/11, the USS Cole bombings, the bombing of the WTC, etc. occured before these recent incidents?

Stupid invasions and military atrocities don't lessen the threat of terrorism, that's for sure. But they're not the reason sicko terrorists have killed the people of the United States.

Please expound upon that.

Have you got a Roget's Thesaurus handy??
That's ok. I did it for you. ;)

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=afford

Main Entry: afford
Part of Speech: verb 1
Definition: able
Synonyms: allow, bear, incur, manage, spare, stand, support, sustain

Main Entry: afford
Part of Speech: verb 2
Definition: give
Synonyms: bestow, furnish, grant, impart, offer, provide, render, supply, yield

I asked you to expound upon it.

I'm lucky to be an Amurkin. Where I have to freedom to support the troops. Or be called unpatriotic.

would you come to that conclusion? I never mentioned AmeriKa.
In fact, I asked you if you lived in the other countries I posted.

going to get into a debate with you. Start a thread, if you have issues.

"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm"

I don't want you guys to be opressed by neither internal nor external influences. Therefore it's in my personal interest to defend what I believe in, and that is America. I haven't lost faith in my country, and I will fight tooth and nail for it if the situation so calls me to. I will not, however, stand for injustice, intolerance, and inequality.

This is the credo most troops live by, it's their personal belief(s) that they should get out and defend what YOU call home.

Sorry I disagree.

My cousin Mac served in Vietnam. He was an MD - a surgeon to be exact. He served very, very near the front lines and met up with bodies immediately after the worst violence had been done to them. He returned home and could not go on. He enlisted because he was raised to belief the myth that the military -- in 750+ military bases all over the world -- was there to protect us. He enlisted because he believed the lies that the rise of 'communism' in Vietnam would put 'our very way of life in danger'. He enlisted because he was a good and decent and brave young man. He did not live to be as old as I am now.

We must confront and reject the myths and lies.

Myth -> "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm" <- Myth / Lie

This myth belongs the "Strict Father Figure" beliefs about the world. The world is a scary place and you have to have rough men to protect you. <- Myth/Lie

In every TV show & movie with violence, at the end, the good guys kill the bad guys. At the end of the show the good guys kill. Good guys kill. Being willing to kill is the highest morality one can display in life. Good guys kill. Good guys kill. <- Myth/Lie

US Troops have fought - certainly since World War II - for one reason: To determine which fat, rich white guy gets the $$$. Don't believe me. Do read General Butler:



We are all being lied to.

Lack of volunteers has never prevented this country from prosecuting a war.

against the will of its people. As long as there are people willing to enlist, Bushco can make the claim that there is support for this war. Because it's true, apparently.

war machine. More than 50,000 soldiers died in Vietnam.

started. We've lost less than 3,000 so far. Are you really sure you'd want to go down that road?

and apparently just take blind revenge out on whoever was near. As noted previously, the persons who intentionally murdered any innocent civilians are going to have to live with it the rest of their lives.

I could only guess what I might do after months and months of seeing my buddies killed in senseless roadside bombings and other attacks.

The realities of what is happening do not fit nicely with the idea that our military is in Iraq to help the Iraqi people.

Folks on all of these message boards need to understand that the military is made up of people from all over the political and social spectrum.

99.99% of our Soldiers, Sailors, Airman, and Marines are contrained by human decency, integrity, and values from committing these atrocities. Believe it our not, I've actually met people, who "no-shit" would face a bullet themselves if their only other choice would be to kill an innocent child.

People that are capable of doing these types of atrocities during war, are the same people that are capable of doing them during peace. War just makes it easier for them.

It's not stress, it's not back to back deployments, it's not because everyone in the military is a cold blooded killer, it's simply because evil exists in this world, even in the military.

That's my opinion, anyway.

(managerial class). But I don't support members of the U.S. working class killing and wounding members of the Iraqi working class in the interests of the global ruling class.

Put another way: WE ARE ALL IRAQIS

Just kidding, but my analysis is heavily influenced by and indebted to Marxist-Leninist thinking, especially with regard to class structure(s) and imperialism(s).

On edit: I do, however, believe in "one person, one vote." So I guess that makes me a "Democratic Socialist," for want of a better label.

no matter what the provocation. I do not care if you are getting shot at or not.

Throw me off of DU right now if I am not allowed to express that.

But you shouldn't blame true_note for actions over which he had as little control as we do.

High stress and low pay cause the killing of infants?
I don't buy it. I never will.
And I was polite about it.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

It was vile, what they did. And the ones who committed the atrocities are the ones to blame. You cannot justify by saying they are on the third or fourth tour. That does not absolve them in any shape or form. They belong, at the very least, in jail for the rest of their lives. Whether or not their commanders lost control is beside the point. If that is true, they should be punished as well.

Their corrupt, incompetent commander in chief is another matter. I view the troops as a sword that can occasionally be used as a plowshare such as after a natural catastrophe.

Like anything else our troops can be abused by putting them in god awful situations with no end in sight, no clear cut mission, no exit strategy and some of the weaker ones can snap under such pressure and do horrible things. I do not excuse the atrocities committed by the Marines or soldiers when this happens, but I am not going to cast aspersions on the entire military because of the actions of a few.

I believe as former President Truman did, that the buck stops at the White House. When the "President" sends mixed signals as to what is ethical after decades of international consensus on the issue of the treatment of combatants held in custody, this only adds to the stress our troops on the front line face. Again this is not to excuse the behavior of the Marines or soldiers that have went over the deep end and lost it, but the vast majority of our military defend our nation with honor and courage.

Semper Fi

A part of me recognizes they are the military eqivalent of the "working class" and, to that extent, I support them the same way I support anyone who actually works for a living.

The Haditha incident causes me to ask whether there were any officers at platoon level involved, akin to Lt. Calley and Capt. Medina at My Lai. Or was the officers' role in the Haditha incident strictly limited to a criminal conspiracy to obstruct justice after the fact by submitting false reports and such-like?

The military pushes Esprit-de-Corps and comradery to the limits. You are a team in the military, and no matter what rank, or position you help you shipmate (or soldier,airman,coastie) to the extent that you can, even if it means your ass.

This is all we know, because we feel everyone hates us, other than the guys that are our side.

The officers falsifying these reports were doing what they thought they were trained to do, although I disagree with their methods. Honesty is one core value taught in all military organizations. Without Honesty communication breaks down...quickly.

no matter how high up the chain it goes, and what ever the role of the officers were, needs to be exposed to justice.

My view of the military in general under Bush is one of victim, under a competent President it would be one of honor.

and the mother of an OIF veteran, you have my support... :hug:

http://www.iava.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=65&Itemid=66
Mental Strain of War

Support the Troops
Fight for their immediate return from hell!!

The
Republican
Occupying the
Office of the
Presidential
Simpleton

between the Commander in Chief/Sec. of Defense and the troops: the gloves are off. We trust you to do whatever it is you need to do, screw the laws. We are America, and we are the best. We do what we want.

And that is what they are doing.

Everyone from Senior NCO's to Senior Officers promote (quote me saying as promote) the Geneva Conventions, however people slip up. As the member above said, we are not robots, but we are not Human.

After all, robots fuck up every now and again, right?

Still, the people who have committed atrocities against innocents need to be dealt with severely.

Grainer is doing 10 years, w/Lindy having had her baby in prison, and I don't see that sending a message.

I think it's a combining factor, of war-stress and the attitude of the Sec. of Defense and our resident wood-chuck in Crawfish.

Every time Rummy opens his mouth, with his cute, smart-assed remarks, he's giving the finger to those who would like a straight-forward answer. His cavalier attitude says to the troops: It's okay to be like me.

The troops aren't as articulate, so they use their M-16s to express themselves.

I haven't asked you to, and it's against my religion. So don't.

Thanks.

and collecting flowers.

I guess the troops saw themselves that way, too.

Modern-day Don Quixotes.

Now everyone is in shock.

I didn't believe any nation would welcome a violent invasion.

edited for a typo

The "ethics training" all soldiers are supposed to undergo is ludicrous in that light.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=37599

What kind of moran thinks people will welcome you with candy and flowers after you've bombed 'em into the stone age?

If "most Americans" believed this, most Americans have serious cognitive difficulties.

force or a winning-hearts-and-minds force. It is a lethal weapon. It is designed to kill people and break things. The current mission in Iraq is untenable, and cannot reasonably be sustained without the expectation that atrocities against civilians will occur--repeatedly. We should have learned all we need to know about fighting an insurgency in Vietnam (turns out you have to negotiate. Imagine that!), but the neocon fuckwits-in-charge are ideologically bound by the notion that the media and not the military lost that war and so our guys and gals in uniform are doomed to repeat history. It's a tragic situation all the way around, and one in which, yes, we're all implicated to some degree. Mostly, though, I blame the neocon fuckwits who lied their way into a war they were not competent to fight. May an eternity of hot tar enemas await them in hell.

If I had a dime for every time I heard a service member, family member, or supporter talk about this as their mission, I'd be wealthy enough to benefit from the tax cuts.

It's barbarous and sickening that there are people who take pride in "killing people and breaking things". That they also want me to "support" them, makes me :puke:

in which it's a very good thing indeed for a society to have the capacity to wage war effectively. In order to do so, said society requires a certain number of warriors, and it must foster in them the desire to intentionally blast their fellow men into hamburger, emphatically and often. It is not evidence of our moral superiority that we then revile the young men and women in whom we have encouraged this desire. The morally correct thing to do, IMO, is to try always to insure that the lethal weapon of the military be used justly and judiciously, and only as a matter of last recourse. Which, of course, is totally contrary to the neocon fuckwits' worldview.

I am religously oppoed to "killing people and breaking things". If you encourage this behavior in young men and women, then you deserve the punishment that will and should be meted out to those who shoot 3 year olds.

Me, I agree with MLK...There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.

are passive enablers of the military; we pay to train and equip them so they can go to foreign countries, meet exotic people and kill them--so we're all complicit, really. Perhaps as a person of the cloth you're legally exempt from all that. Must be nice.

do you?

*ignore*

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I haven't said anything at all about your alleged religion. I don't even know what it is. You could be a Rastafarian or a Taoist or a Druid, for all I know. I'm just trying to point out that if you're a taxpayer, your position on the military may be more complicated than you apparently think it is. If you're not a taxpayer, well, bully for you. I wish I didn't have to pay them, either. Then I, too, could have the luxury of opposing all things military while everyone else paid for my security.

Out of the 20+ Marines that I know very well, I've never heard one of them say it.

I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around how a group of Marines who pride themselves on discipline and coolness under fire gets so enraged and full of hate, so out of control, that they would execute innocent children.

I just can't understand it at all.

I had a neighbor who was a crusty old Marine who served in three wars, and he told me about some atrocities that he witnessed. He claimed that he always walked away, that he never participated. I have no reason to doubt him, either. He also never lost pride in being a Marine, so that, to me, says alot.

and there are people standing around watching that you think planted the bomb, or knew that the bomb was there...

I'm not excusing them for (what we think) happened. It's just not that big a leap, unfortunately.

the people weren't "standing around watching". They were in their homes with the doors closed. The marines broke into their homes. There was another article in the Tribune today describing it this way.

Please don't try to excuse murder.

and then you tried to excuse it. Please be honest.

I just explained it, not excused it, then I said that I wasn't excusing it.

Please be literate.

They went into homes and killed women, old people, and a three year old. Who were not "standing around"
Some were at prayer when they were shot.

But you can understand how that might happen :eyes:

You weren't there, neither was I, and neither of us know what happened. I prefer to wait for the full official report, rather than make knee-jerk reaction to leaked snippets. If these Marines killed innocent people with no provocation and no mitigating circumstances, then they deserve the full measure of the law, and I feel sure that they will receive it.

In the second place, the original post was only intended as a quick explanation of how some things occur in war. It was not intended to address this particular incident.

This is my attempt at not being knee-jerk. I'm trying to understand it, but I probably never will..it just makes me hate this war and those who sent us there even more.

but little children, babies? I can't make myself understand that.

drugs to the soldiers . The article said they were handing out anti-depressants and other meds because they needed to keep all the soldiers they had in action, not lose them because of mental stress.

So some of the soldiers might have cracked anyway.

that there is Chicago gang graffiti cropping up in Iraq. It seems the gangs are encouraging their members to volunteer for service in Iraq to learn about urban warfare techniques. I don't have the link, and it may not even be true, but if it is, that's scary.

Urban guerilla-trained gangs coming to a neighborhood near you, courtesy of the BFEE

disorder. We're passing out drugs and sending them into combat.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1338486&mesg_id=1338486

It was published just a couple of weeks ago. You should read it. They obtained these records using the Freedom of Information act.

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/hc-sicktroops.artmay21,0,5592779.story

"The facts uncovered through examining screening forms for nearly 1 million deploying troops, obtained by The Courant through the federal Freedom of Information Act, as well as interviews with victims' family members, fellow troops and mental health experts, are shocking:

Unstable troops with histories of serious mental illness are sent to the front lines, sometimes for more than one tour, and given psychiatric drugs without adequate counseling or monitoring of medication.


SNIP

"Given that a 2004 Army study showed that 9.3 percent of U.S. troops have serious psychological disorders, it is clear they aren't all getting proper help."

SNIP

"Army Spec. Edward W. Brabazon of Pennsylvania is just one example of a soldier who should have been flagged as unsuited for combat. He had a troubled youth and spent much of his life being treated and sometimes hospitalized for bipolar disorder and attention deficit problems. He took lithium and Zyprexa, an anti-psychotic medication. Yet he was able to go straight from a group home to the recruiting office. Three months into his second deployment to the Mideast, after threatening suicide, the 20-year-old fatally shot himself in the head."

SNIP

has severe mental health problems.
I just read it.
Please show me where you see that in the link you provided.
Thanks.
PS. There isn't a "frontline" in Iraq.

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/hc-sicktroops.artmay21,0,5592779.story
snip-->
The facts uncovered through examining screening forms for nearly 1 million deploying troops,
obtained by The Courant through the federal Freedom of Information Act,
as well as interviews with victims' family members, fellow troops and mental health experts,
are shocking:

Unstable troops with histories of serious mental illness are sent to the front lines,
sometimes for more than one tour,
and given psychiatric drugs without adequate counseling or monitoring of medication.

Some troops diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder after returning from Iraq
are being medicated and sent back,
a practice experts believe stands to worsen their condition.

Despite a congressional order that the military assess the mental health of deploying troops,
fewer than one in 300 see a mental health professional before shipping out.

Given that a 2004 Army study showed that 9.3 percent of U.S. troops have serious psychological disorders,
it is clear they aren't all getting proper help. <--snip

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.iava.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=65&Itemid=66
SNIP-->
Lariam-Related Health Issues

Lariam, the brand name of the anti-malaria medication melfloquine,
has been given to tens of thousands of Troops since the beginning of the war on terrorism.
The side-effects are not yet fully understood, but include:

"Headache, nausea, dizziness, difficulty sleeping, anxiety, vivid dreams,
and visual disturbances.
Mefloquine has rarely been reported to cause serious side effects,
such as seizures, depression, and psychosis." (CDC)

Because of these side-effects, Lariam is not recommended for people suffering from depression,
anxiety or other major psychological disorders.
Additionally, because it remains in the body for a long time,
"side effects caused by mefloquine may persist weeks to months after the drug has been stopped."

Read the VA Department's 2004 brief on Lariam's longterm side effects here.

The Walter Reed Army Institute of Research (WRAIR) published a study last month
indicating brain stem damage in rats after exposure to Lariam,
but the VA has stated it needs more evidence of brain stem injury in humans.
WRAIR is funding the development of a commercially available safety test to screen for susceptibility to Lariam's negative side effects.

Until recently, many troops given Lariam were given very little information about the drug's side-effects, including the possibility of nerve damage.
As questions about Lariam persist,
the FDA has released a pamphlet that all patients given Lariam are supposed to receive.

Senator Feinstein (D-CA) has called for an investigation into the effects of Lariam.
Read her press release.

To find out more about Lariam, including links to studies from the World Health Organization,
visit Alliance For Security.

Lariam Action USA offers information and support of Lariam users and their families. <--SNIP

ANYONE with preexisting mental illnesses to Iraq, or sending them for subsequent terms while they're suffering from post traumatic stress. Period.

shouldn't be sending soldiers with pre-existing mental health issues or sending them back with PTSD!
Or sending them at all, for that matter.
But to say, 1 in 10 deploying has severe mental health disabilities, is just plain wrong.
That is what you stated. Just wanted to clarify.
I already addressed the original OP.

PS. I wasn't debating you. I wanted clarification.
I just didn't see, what you stated as fact, in the article.
I still don't.

But I will never stop speaking out about this issue.
Never.

the best thing for you to do would be to take your concerns directly to soldiers or Marines stationed at your nearest base camp. What's the point of posting here when you can say what's on your mind straight to them? (Though I don't think you're going to like their responses.)

You have no idea what kinds of activism I am involved in.
And I live near a very big military base. And I grew up in the military.

If Cindy Sheehan can take the abuse, so can I.

If I save one life of an Iraqi infant it is worth it.

Interesting. I keep hearing they're fighting for her right to speak her mind. Don't they know this, or is it just spin to get us to keep "supporting" them?

"I support the military industrial complex"

Now THAT is a good American!!

it'll be for the pols in DC.

Take a young kid fresh out of high school, fill his head in boot camp with "kill all the arabs you see" brainwashing, send him out thousands of miles away to a harsh and alien environment for years and with no clear cut objective and no real goal, where everyone there hates his guts and the "enemy" looks exactly like the people he is supposed to be there helping, add in a healthy dose of combat fatigue, sleep deprivation, gunshots, explosions, and watching their buddies heads get blown off, arm them to the teeth, and you get these types of results.

but I just can't get the image of those guys shooting small children execution style out of my head.

What in God's name would push them to that?

Hatred will eat your soul up, and leave you less human. The Marines and soldiers over there are going through a form of psychological torture. This torture induces hatred, the stronger more disciplined ones can resist this primal urge to some degree, however the weaker more unstable ones can slip over the edge and lose their humanity.

They are in a strange land with a totally alien culture as compared to ours. They do not speak the language and cannot relate to the people. They have seen their friends and comrades blown up by an invisible enemy that melts in to the population. When that happens, they cannot help but to think the population either knows or condones the killing of their friends. These overwhelming feelings of helplessness and rage cause a form of insanity. They have to demonize the people in order to cope with this stress. The result of this inevitable demonization makes the Iraqis less than human in their eyes. A boy or young man that would never think of killing a child or woman in the real world, believes they deserve it over there. This of course is insanity, just as war is.

This is why our "leaders" should not put our children, grandchildren, parents, grandparents or anyone else in to such an insane situation as Bush has. This is why war should be the absolute last recourse instead of an petulant decision based on lies and deception made by a lazy minded, incurious, vain glorious naked emperor and his neocon sycophants intent on "bringing democracy" to the other side of the planet while he trashes it here at home.

it puts it all in perspective.

:patriot:

when uber patriot, uber "warrior" O'Reilly kept crabwalking on Haditha and pompously maintaining that "95% of the troops" are beyond reproach. Wes came back with, "more like 99%". That said, war crimes do exist. And if we want to be America, land of the free, home of the brave, we have to diligently and loudly condemn the murder of civilians. We have to aspire to be a nation of compassion.

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Doesn't that go a long way into explaining their behavior? Troops with mental illnesses are being recruited from HALF-WAY HOMES!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1338486&mesg_id=1338486

Are you there? Do you know anyone who is there? I do, and I truly believe that the vast majority of them are trying to do the right thing in a difficult situation.

What's disgusting is your condemnation of a large group of mostly fine young men and women for the (alleged) actions of a couple of dozen bad seeds.

anymore than calling them epileptic is. It's an illness.

said nothing about mental illness.

It said:

"The behavior of our "brave troops"

in Iraq is truly disgusting.

When not bullying or torturing, they're behaving like Murder, Incorporated"

My comment stands.

Information on war tax resistance...www.nwtrcc.org

bumper sticker on my car and it will stay there until Bush is gone and the troops come home.

I pity them.

They likely didn't sign up to brutalize innocent civilians in countries that didn't attack us (though, with the U.S. military's track record, you'd have to be pretty ignorant not to know that has happened in just about all of the nearly-universally unnecessary wars we've had, WWII excepted), and they're being used.

But they're not heroes. Technically, they're involved in one massive war crime, and I pity them their choices: fight an illegal war and possibly lose your humanity, or do the right thing and wind up in jail or exile.

The utter shitty nature of those choices is a huge part of why millions of us never wanted the invasion in the first place.

(And I'm from a military family. I'm not anti-military. I'm anti-illegal war and anti-war crimes, as well as anti-exploitation of soldiers who truly want to defend us, which this debacle isn't an example of.)

...and it's the chickenhawks in charge. BushCo started this war, BushCo set the conditions on the ground and have done nothing but lie about everything to do with Iraq and the mission there since before it began. They lied to us, they lied to the troops.

They were more than happy to sit on their laurels and take credit for "mission accomplished" and the first "democratic" election in Iraq; they bloody well ARE culpable for the insurgency, the lack of proper equipment and supplies, and every massacre or other instance of so-called "collateral damage". BushCo are ultimately responsible for every blasted thing the military does, good or bad.

You can bet your sweet bippy the Bush** cabal wouldn't let a foreign government off the hook if it was their families who were being gunned down in cold blood by foreign troops.

No. For every soldier found guilty of acting outside the UCMJ, a reciprocal charge should be leveled against this administration.

Truenotes, I support the troops in their fight to retain their sanity and humanity in conditions where it must seem, at least to some, that they've been all but abandoned to ensuring their own survival. Those who cross the line are responsible for what they do and should be punished. But no punishment would be too great for those who put them there in the first place and continue to cover up the truth and severity of what's happening in Iraq.

Our servicemen and women are individuals, no matter how the military and certain Americans would like to strip that away from them and turn them into faceless warm bodies who all feel and do the same thing. It's possible to support the troops -- wish they were safe and home -- without condoning the wrongdoing, no matter how some would like to paint it otherwise.

And one last thing. Kudos to anyone who hasn't served and sheds no tears for those who do. You're gifted with a rare insight. Too bad more young people aren't as self-aware, wise to the world and immune to trusting authority as you are. Too bad they're so indelibly human. There are thousands of troops in Iraq who'd trade places with you in a heartbeat, but can only look back with their 20/20 vision and wish they knew then what they know now; who can only dream of being the ones who now so generously say: "You signed up, you asked for it".

You sanctimonious popinjays disgust me as much as Bush** does. He uses their gullibility; you blame them for being gullible.

Just like the ones that were tried for war crimes at Nurenburg. They should be the ones up for war crimes, murder, treason, etc etc. And our troops should be home.

that did this. i am angry the circumstances have been created taht allows this and will continue to all this, bring good men to their bad..... and innocent people and babies to the end of their lives. there are people that are way more responsible for who killed these innocents, than the people that pulled the trigger. in everyway bushcos have created an environment that hones the very ugliest, not best, of who we are

is what I'm mad as all getout about.

I do believe what you say about the vast majority of the troops.

Recommended!

Some people just don't know how they will react when put into combat at the time they sign, "the lines."

I have a friend who did two tours in Afghanistan and was in Somalia, he told me stories of combatants shooting at them while hiding behind women and children, so the Americans wouldn't shoot back.

After Haditha, and an older gent I know who recently discussed how in WWII, his unit shot children dead, because people would pull grenade pins while the kids were holding them, and tell them to run over to the American soldiers. He had tears in his eyes and his voice was shaking.

Civilians die in wars. My hope is that their deaths always be accidental.

War is hell. Leadership is top down.

I don't know what else to say. I support our soldiers - because they will live with this war in their heads long after it is over.

For those who commit crimes, they should be tried and convicted = the same as guilty civilians. Crimes shouldn't be covered up. Leaders have the responsibility of keeping those in their command honest - even if the enemy isn't. Otherwise we are no better than them.

There are good soldiers, there are great soldiers, there are soldiers who are assholes.

There are good civilians, there are great civilians, there are civilians who are assholes.

War is hell. I look to our military to represent what is best in our country. It is sad when I feel let down, but I know that there will always be soldiers in our armed forced who do us proud. We know that. It just gets hard sometimes, but we always remember.

Rest easy.

become.One statement he made back then still haunts me.."don't worry,mom-we aim low at the kids"
I support the troops...not their commander-in-chief or his murderous staff.

:cry:

I've said it many times before: those soldiers could be my kids. Both my son and daughter talked about enlisting in the weeks after 9/11, but decided to wait and see. My daughter has since had a baby, and my son simply says if drafted he will serve.

I always come back to that reality: that could be my own kids. It grounds me.

I know you won't give up on your son, W8liftinglady. Always hold out hope for his safe return in every sense of the word. :hug:

Hekate

I have the utmost respect for the military. Military personnel should, in my opinion be afforded the best of everything. That means the best leadership, from the top down, starting with the commander-in-chief, to the defense secretary, right down to the training, equipment and logistical support.

But in this war U.S. military personnel are treated like 3rd worlders, with an insane leader in the White House, a clueless secretary of defense, who refuses to listen to seasoned military strategists, extended and too numerous tours of duty, inadequate training, supplies, equipment, meals, protection, and probably a host of other things.

Yes, I believe morale is low, psychological problems run high.

But....there is absolutely no justification, or apologizing for the atrocities that took place in Haditha. I cannot wait for ALL of the truth of this massacre to come out, and for those who tried to cover this up, no matter what rank or status get what's coming to them. It is most unfortunate that the sick and twisted actions of a few tarnish the the rest.

I just hope that there is something good that will come from all of this.

But I do have one burning question. Why in the world would anyone want to sign up for the armed forces, given the fact that we have a madman in the oval office, who is intent on starting a world war? WHY? I don't care what anyone's private circumstances are. I have been poor most of my life, and if I was a youngster I would not even consider a career in the military, given the political climate. I would become a janitor first. Because right now, for the average grunt, a military career could be a very short and quite unhealthy one.

not all the troops signed up after 9-11.
Many enlisted, a long time, before the bushco$ regime stole the presidency.

that is the case. I didn't realize I should even have to spell that out. I was addressing only those that had enlisted after 9/11..

So......?

:shrug:
"But I do have one burning question.
Why in the world would anyone want to sign up for the armed forces,
given the fact that we have a madman in the oval office, who is intent on starting a world war? WHY?"

IMO it shows support so much more than the jingoistic and illogical mindset of the "other side". And it's an honor to make this, my 1,000th post, to you, and about the war. The war was one of the main reasons I became an activist and parked it at the DU. Please be careful - and all the best to you

Bush's word "The people who are responsible for this will hear us" or some shit like that....sure I was angry at the time. Shortly after I learned that Osama Bin Laden claimed responsibility for the attacks and that our forces would go to the ends of the earth to find him and bring him to justice...well, after about nine months of searching for him in Afghanistan, we couldn't find him. But then I hear that we are going after Saddam Hussein in Iraq ( a well-known enemy of the United States ) and when "mission accomplished" was, well....accomplished:sarcasm: we pretty much took the bad guy down. This is what most people are missing....that link, when there was none! We went after a common enemy of America and made everything "right". No WMD's were found in Iraq ( nor will there ever be ) but I hope that I wasn't the only person scratching their head when I heard that we were going into Iraq! This war is a disgrace, and I want our troops back home with their families where they belong because there IS NO TRUE CAUSE HERE!! Any bastard who says I'm against the troops because I'm against the war ( false war, mind you ) may get their rotten teeth knocked out of their stinking mouths....that is all.....

Stop drinking the kool-aide.

I hope to be able to say welcome back some day.

I'm sorrier than words can express that the man in the White House is evil and possibly insane as well, and that he treats our men and women in uniform like expendable commodities.

I understand that one of the burdens placed on the shoulders of the average military person is massively unclear message from the top -- including, most shamefully, the assertion by our own Attorney General that the provisions of the Geneva Conventions have "been rendered quaint" as of 9-11-2001.

I believe in personal responsibility and accountability, but recognize that you and your cohorts are being placed in situations most of us will never experience. And given that our President, Vice President, Attorney General, and Secretary of Defense have ALL stated in so many words that the Geneva Conventions are null and void, and that torture is acceptable -- I can see how troops destabilized by those messages and their own combat experiences could descend further into savagery...

I am not condoning atrocity, but trying to understand it. Those who commit crimes must be stopped. But how I wish that those who ordered and rationalized the crimes -- Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, and Rumsfeld among them -- could be made to pay as dearly.

Please forgive the occasional DU rant born out of frustration and anger and feelings of powerlessness -- many DUers are veterans as well, and you know you are welcome here.

Hekate

You will find friends here when you return:

National VFP:
http://www.veteransforpeace.org
VFPSB:
http://www.vfpsb.org/index.html

People assume the deleted post was inflammatory and start responding to that assumption. Then others with malicious agendas hop on the bandwagon. And no one can go back and read the deleted post to see for themselves that the post was polite and fair.

To the Mods, you have power, I pray that you use it wisely.

I also pray that you make good choices. You are not on the side of the angels when you silence those who speak out for innocents being slaughtered. And if the words murder, rape and torture are upsetting to you I sincerely understand, but it is reality, and deleting my words will not make them go away.

I sincerely hope you read this before you delete it. I will send you light and love, so you can find it in your heart to do the right thing.

it's not their fault, they are in a place that they shouldn't be.

My family and I send a box a week to a random group of soldiers, picked through AnySoldier.com. We support the troops and will continue to support them through their time of need.

We have not just put the soldiers' bodies in harm's way. We have put their minds and their souls in harm's way too.