Retired Delta Airline Pilot E-Mail making the rounds of the Freep Network.

I just received this from a Right Wing Pilot friend of our family. It seems to be making the rounds among the RW sites and particularly among the airline pilot network as a breathless "Must Read....Send to all Your Friends."

I Googled to see if this Pat Gilmore was really a retired Delta Pilot but couldn't find anything. Somehow this e-mail doesn't ring true. I think it's another hoked up propaganda piece to get folks to see Flight 93 which bombed.

Here's the e-mail...

-------------------------------------

Comments from a retired Delta Airlines Captain regarding 911. Read it in detail and/or forward. IT'S A HEALTHY REMINDER!

I haven't seen the movie (UAL 93), yet, but I intend to when I get the chance. Retirement has made me busier than ever, and I haven't had the chance to see many movies lately.

As a Delta B-767 captain myself at the time of the attacks on 9/11, I was in crew rest in Orlando that morning. I had just turned on the TV in my hotel room only to see the WTC tower on fire, then saw the second airplane hit the other tower. My immediate reaction was "Terrorists...we're at war", followed by the realization that we airline crewmembers had all dodged a bullet; it could have been any one of us flying those planes. As soon as the news stations flashed the first pictures of the terrorists I knew just how close and personal the bullet I dodged was. There, on the screen for all to see, was a man who had sat in my jumpseat the previous July.

His name was Mohammad Atta, the leader of the terrorist hijackers. Atta had boarded my flight from Baltimore to Atlanta on July 26, 2001 wearing an American Airlines first officer uniform. He had the corresponding AA company ID identifying him as a pilot, not to mention the required FAA pilot license and medical certificate that he was required to show me as proof of his aircrew status for access to my jumpseat. An airline pilot riding a cockpit jumpseat is a long established protocol among the airlines of the world, a courtesy extended by the management and captains of one airline to pilots and flight attendants of other airlines in recognition of their aircrew status. My admission of Mohammad Atta to my cockpit jumpseat that day was merely a routine exercise of this protocol.

Something seemed a bit different about this jumpseat rider, though, because in my usual course of conversation with him as we reached cruise altitude he avoided all my questions about his personal life and focused very intently upon the cockpit instruments and our operation of the aircraft. I asked him what he flew at American and he said, "These", but he asked incessant questions about how we did this or why we did that. I said, "This is a 767. They all operate the same way." But he said, "No, we operate them differently at American." That seemed very strange, because I knew better. I asked him about his background, and he admitted he was from Saudi Arabia. I asked him when he came over to this country and he said "A couple of years ago.", to which I asked, "Are you a US citizen?" He said no. I also found that very strange because I know that in order to have an Airline Transport Pilot rating, the rating required to be an airline captain, one has to be a US citizen, and knowing the US airlines and their hiring processes as I do, I found it hard to believe that American Airliens would hire a non-US citizen who couldn't upgrade to captain when the time came. He said, "The rules have changed.", which I also knew to be untrue. Besides, he was just, shall I say, "Creepy"? My copilot and I were both glad to get rid of this guy when we got to Atlanta.

There was nothing to indicate, though, that he was anything other than who or what he said he was, because he had the documentation to prove who he was. In retrospect, we now know his uniform was stolen and his documents were forged. Information later came to light as to how this was done.

It seems that Mohammad Atta and his cronies had possibly stolen pilot uniforms and credentials from hotel rooms during the previous year. We had many security alerts at the airline to watch out for our personal items in hotel rooms becuase these were mysteriously disappearing, but nobody knew why. Atta and his men used these to make dry runs prior to their actual hijackings on 9/11. How do I know? I called the FBI as soon as I saw his face on the TV that day, and the agent on the other end of the line took my information and told me I'd hear back from them when all the dust settled. A few weeks later I got a letter from the Bureau saying that my call was one of at least half a dozen calls that day from other pilots who had had the same experience. Flights were being selected at random to make test runs for accessing the cockpit. It seems we had all dodged bullets.

Over the years my attitude towards the War Against Terrorism and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have been known to be on the red neck, warmongering, rah-rah-shoot-em-up side of things. I've been known to lose my patience with those who say the war in Iraq or anywhere else in the Muslim world is wrong, or who say we shouldn't become involved in that area of the world for political correctness reasons. Maybe it's because I dodged the bullet so closely back in 2001 that I feel this way. I have very little patience for political rhetoric or debate against this war because for a couple of hours back in July 2001, when I was engaged in conversation with a major perpetrator in this war, I came so close to being one of its victims that I can think in no other terms.

I don't mind admitting that one of the reasons I retired early from Delta last May, other than to protect my disappearing company retirement, was because it became harder and harder for me to go to work every day knowing that the war wasn't being taken seriously by the general public. The worst offenders were the Liberal detractors to the present administration, and right or wrong, this administration is at least taking the bull by the horns and fighting our enemies, which is something concrete that I can appreciate. Nobody was taking this war seriously, and it seems everyone found fault with the US government rather than with those who attacked us. I found that incomprehensible.

I also found myself being scrutinized by TSA screeners more and more every day when I went to work, and suffered the humiliating indignity of being identified about half the time for body searches in front of the general flying public who looked at the entire process as being ludicrous. "They don't even trust their own pilots!" Accompanied by an unbelieving snicker was the usual response. Here I was, a retired USAF officer who had been entrusted to fly nuclear weapons around the world, who had been granted a Top Secret clearance and had been on missions over the course of 21 years in the military that I still can't can't talk about without fear of prosecution by the DoD, who was being scanned by a flunkie TSA screener looking for any sign of a pen knife or nail file on my person.

It wasn't until six months after my retirement when my wife and I flew to Key West, FL last November that I was finally able to rid myself of the visage of Mohammad Atta sitting behind me on my jumpseat, watching my every action in the cockpit and willing to slit my throat at the slightest provocation. I missed being a headline by a mere 47 days, and could very well have been among the aircrew casualties on 9/11 had one of my flights on my monthly schedule been a transcontinental flight from Boston or New York to the west coast on the 11th of September. Very few people know that, while only four airliners crashed that day, four more were targeted, and two of them were Delta flights. The only reason these four weren't involved is because they either had minor maintenance problems which delayed them at the gate or they were scheduled to depart after the FAA decided to ground all flights. Theirs are the pilots and flight attendants who REALLY dodged the bullet that day, and my faith in a higher power is restored as a result.

I will see United 93 when I get the chance, and I will probably enjoy the movie for its realness and historical significance, but forgive me if I do not embrace the Muslim world for the rest of my life. The Islamic world is no friend of the West, and although we may be able to get along with their governments in the future, the stated goal of Islam is world conquest through Jihad and it is the extremist Jihadists, backed and funded by "friendly" Moslem governments, whom we have to fear the most. We must have a presence in the Middle East, and we must have friends in the Middle East, even if we have to fight wars to get them. Only someone who has dodged a bullet can fully appreciate that fact.

Best to all, Pat Gilmore

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=002123;p=1

humm - link didn't work . I googled using: delta pilot snopes

try link again - (add http then type) ://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=002123;p=1

I searched snopes and found nothing. Can you get a better link?

My feeling is at least this one is so long, the cretins are less likely to read it. I sure didn't.

See if this works. Pretty intelligent discussion!

http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/9/t/002123.html

It was discussed here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=87518

EDIT: No, different; much different. For clarity.

I chimed in on that 5/16 post. Read my previous comments here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=87518

However, this business about having M. Atta in an Delta jump-seat is a bit far fetched. Securing an AA F/O uniform and I/D would have been relatively easy. A passable fake FAA Airman's Certificate (ATP) would not be hard either (it is not a photo I/D). However, this story has big holes. To wit:

An airline pilot riding a cockpit jump-seat is a long established protocol among the airlines of the world, a courtesy extended by the management and captains of one airline to pilots and flight attendants of other airlines in recognition of their aircrew status.

This is so far from true that it makes my eyes water.

Fact A: The Delta Airlines pilots could not even ride on their own company's jump-seats (unless on a family emergency status) until summer of 1996, when that privilege was negotiated into their union contract. There was no reciprocity between Delta and other airlines as far as jump-seat privileges until 1996. As a US Airways pilot, I was asked by a few cheeky Delta pilots for my J/S (prior to 1996). Unless there was a compelling, compassionate reason to give that Delta pilot my J/S (and final authority is the captain's, reciprocity or not), I always turned them down. Why? The Delta pilots needed some prodding to get their company to open up Delta jump-seats to friggin' Delta's own pilots, and then to the rest of us.
This happened in 1996, the same month that I moved from Alexandria, VA to Dallas. I remained DCA based, so I had to commute from DFW to DCA. For several months I was an exotic creature at Delta. I was an off-line (other airline) jump-seater. From the gate agents to the captains, they were great. But: THEY.WERE.CAREFUL. The jump-seat is a quid pro quo thing, and Delta was very late joining the rest of us.

Fact B1: It is not a courtesy extended by management. Delta is a great example of management holding on to control of the J/S until they could extract a concession from Delta pilots for that benefit. Commuting to and from work (given the nature of base changes for pilots) finally became so onerous for the Delta pilots that they gave up other benefits to ride Delta jump-seats and to gain reciprocity to ride other airline's jump-seats.

Fact B2: US airlines cockpit jump-seats are not legally available to pilots of foreign carriers.

Fact B3: Contrary to public opinion, flight attendants are never authorized to occupy the cockpit jump-seat during takeoff and landing unless specific permission is granted by the captain, the airline's director of operations, and the airline's controlling FAA administrator (FISDO).

Fact C: This J/S rider incident is not in the 9/11 report. The captain was quiet till now. Why?

Capt. Mac.

Need to know stuff, here!

Mac

I find it posted many places and never debunked. This is interesting:

I assure you this letter is true. As to the fact that I wrote that a holder of an Airline Transport Pilot rating (ATP) must be a US citizen, I admit that I was mistaken here. I had always assumed so, because that's what I had heard, so I looked up the requrements for an ATP just now. There is nothing that says that US citizenship is required. Okay, I'll bite the bullet on that one. I recieved my ATP back in 1975 and now that I think of it I do not remember having to prove my citizenship. However, the rest of the story is true.

As for my airline career, I worked for Western Airlines (who merged with Delta in 1987), Jet America Airlines (who was bought by Alaska Airlines in 1988), and Delta Airlines, as well as a few "fly by night" cargo airlines during my furlough period from Western from 1981-1985. I also flew in Vietnam as a transport pilot and retired from the USAF Reserve in 1991 after the Gulf War. I have 21,500+ flight hours in T-41, T-37, T-38, C-141/L-300, CE-500, CV-440, MD-80/82, B-727, B-737, B-757, and B-767 aircraft, all logged between 1970 and 2005 when I retired from Delta.

Trust me, folks, this was real. I must admit I am quite surprised that my letter made it this far on the internet. The letter was nothing more than am innocent reply to a group of friends, one of whom sent me a similar letter from another Delta pilot who had been flying the morning of 9/11 and who had experienced the flying that day for himself. His letter had detailed his thoughts as he viewed the movie "United 93", and he also told in detail how he had been diverted to Knoxville when the FAA shut down the airspace. My friend had asked me if I had known of any other similar experiences, so I wrote him what I had encountered myself a few months before. This was my letter to him.

Another retired Delta captain contacted me yesterday after reading this blog and related an experience his wife had on a flight from Portland, OR to Atlanta in August 2001, just a week or so after my experience with Atta. She was riding on a company pass and seated in First Class. A person of "Middle Eastern" descent had sought permission to sit on the cockpit jump seat, but was denied access by the captain because he did not have an FAA Medical certificate. She said he ranted and raved because he couldn't ride the cockpit jump seat, even though there were three empty seats in First Class, which the captain offered him. What pilot in his right mind would refuse a First Class seat over a cramped cockpit jump seat? He stormed off the aircraft and they left him at the gate. You see? Mine wasn't the only experience leading up to 9/11.

Delta Airlines Corporate Security even contacted me a few days ago to ask if I had, indeed, written this letter. I wrote them back that I had. They were worried that someone was using my name without my knowledge. I assured them I was the author.

Keep the faith, and don't let the bastards get you down.

Pat
http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/2994-A-Delta-pilot-who-dodged-a-bullet,-re-United-93.html

I just noticed he replies agin at the same link (on edit)

"Can you imagine today's lefty libs back in WWII? We'd probably all be speaking German."

The truth about WWII (The LAST war that Congress) declared is this: The Hitler-lovers in the US then were almost exclusively from the far-right. Some engaged in "creating disaffection",and a few engaged in outright treasonable activity. But the overwhelming majority of the Left RUSHED to the rcruiting centers. In many cases they lied about their ages or concealed physical disabilities to get in.

pnorman

Telling him about the results of their efforts, i.e. many pilots reported that uniforms were stolen. That is pure BS!

HATED HATED HATED FDR and most called him simply "that man in the white house." A great many were isolationist and wanted the US to have nothing to do with the outside world, no matter WHAT was happening. Many more were racist, bigoted pigs who found Hitler's "master race" propaganda quite appealing; some even made no attempt to hide it (Charles Lindbergh, anyone?) And some, such as, ahem, Prescott Bush, made their fortunes collaborating in business ventures with the nazis. The vast majority of those against US involvement in WWII, even after Pearl Harbor, were from the far-right, a convenient little fact that today's right deliberately chooses to blatantly ignore or are kept ignorant of.

You're absolutely right and too many people forget it.

Those on the left who went to Spain to defend the Republic were labeled "Permaturely Anti-Fascist" by the U.S. military and always treated with great suspicion when they later tried to fight Hitler for Uncle Sam.

:rofl:

This has been around for a while; usually by now they would either have a true/false on something like this.

The letter says, "in order to have an Airline Transport Pilot rating, the rating required to be an airline captain, one has to be a US citizen..."

As far as I know, this is not true.

Furthermore, the inclusion of, "My immediate reaction was 'Terrorists...we're at war'" is pure Rove.

"my first reaction was 'we're at war'"


Bullshit.


Their first reaction was probably more like "what the fuck!?!"


"We're at war" probably didn't sink in until a few hours later.

I would keep checking Snopes; it may take a while for them to find out what's going on.

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/2994-A-Delta-pilot-who-dodged-a-bullet,-re-United-93.html

Here's a link with posts from someone claiming to be Pat Gilmore


This is a favorite tool of propagandists of all stripes, an anecdotal story urging you to put yourself in the writer's place and then creating a powerful emotion, in this case fear, and then after establishing the emotion, promoting a political view. This is what makes me believe it is contrived.

checking to see if Gilmore really is or was a pilot. :shrug:

If he is so rah-rah go-get-em pro-war, and if he himself couldn't tell that the person he was sitting next to was really a terrorist, and it really touched him and freaked him out



then why does he then turn around and complain about being checked at security checkpoints?


If he truly was that close to one of the terrorists right before they did 9/11, and he saw firsthand how you can't tell who is a terrorist and who is not, then why wouldn't he be all for having everyone, including every pilot, fully checked and inspected?

at security checkpoints.

so what?

He bemoans the people that don't take this war seriously. He can look right to the White House for the reason. Why should the American people take this war seriously when so little attempt has been made to apprehend bin Laden? Why should we take this war seriously when we all know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11? Why should we take this war seriously when this administration poorly planned and executed it? Why should we take this war seriously when none of us have been asked to sacrifice anything except for our civil liberties? Where is the gas rationing? Where is the push to rid ourselves of dependency on foreign oil? We hear about the tax cuts and the Federal Marriage Amendment more than we hear about the sacrifices we all should be forced to make if this war were as serious as the author believes it to be.

And on his closing point I fail to understand how we are making any friends in the fighting of this war.

Mz Pip
:dem:

I fail to see how this justifies the war in Iraq. This putz--or the person who invented this putz--is just trying to stir up hatred toward all Muslims as justification for the new crusades. We should attack middle-eastern countries because a future hijacker sat next to to this guy? Jeeze...

From the tone of his letter, I take it his retirement checks from Delta are still coming. He'll change his tune quickly if the realities of his industry catch up with him.

I'm not a pilot but I spent more than 20 years in airport operations for an international carrier, and I'm familiar with the procedures for riding jumpseat in the cockpit.

First, this "captain" clearly understood his jumpseat rider to be fraudulent. Given the questions this supposed AA crew member was asking, the guy clearly was an imposter (and "creepy"). And this "captain" knew that...yet he did nothing on arrival in ATL? Didn't file a report, didn't tell his own security department or airport security on arrival, just let this fraud continue to ride jumpseat on OTHER flights operated by his fellow DL crewmembers? Real nice guy, eh?

Not a chance. Not with the clearly fraudulent nature of this jumpseat rider, and I don't care how authentic his credentials looked. Any captain I've dealt with certainly would have let me know on arrival that something was very wrong with the jumpseat boarded upline - at the VERY LEAST. Yet this "captain" did nothing.

I call bullshit.

We're talking about the guy who had "plane must be powered by big rubber band you wind up" stamped across the face of his FAA file, right? What horseshit.

Is there a company named "Never Forget Because We Won't Let You" out there ginning this shit up?

" will see United 93 when I get the chance, and I will probably enjoy the movie for its realness and historical significance"

for "Pat Gilmore" (or Patrick Gilmore) -- this one has only a private pilot certificate, and you have to have an ATP to fly for an airline. However, it's also possible that the guy is real, and that because he's retired he no longer keeps his medical certificate current, in which case he wouldn't be in the FAA's database.

See my post #25 fairly near the top.

but I know you're right about the jumpseat situation. I work for an airline, and I'm authorized to ride in the jumpseat, and you damn betcha they check you out. They were very careful even before 9/11. Maybe the situation was different for DAL by 2001, but the story does seem fishy. The fishiest part of it is, why didn't this story turn up a long time ago, like maybe in the 9/11 Commission report? Anybody can say anything on the Internets...

Added: On further reflection, the guy should still be in the FAA database if he retired in May of 2005, because his first-class medical certificate would lapse into a second-class certificate after 6 months, and then to a third-class certificate after another year. Since he'd still be considered to have a current medical certificate as of right now, he should still be in the FAA's pilot database. But he isn't.

You must be a pilot, a dispatcher, or a mechanic. Even the dispatchers and mechanics need high level release now (up to FISDO or higher on revenue flights). Otherwise, I can't imagine your access to a cockpit jump-seat, if you are not a pilot. Even management has a hard time with the J/S now.

Eh?

Mac

Ground instructor, systems and procedures. Required to do observation rides, with specific JS authorization by management per company FOM. It's kind of fun, but yes, they do check your credentials carefully. As they should.

Training department line checks/obs rides. J/S Must-Rides. Bumped only by FAA checks and Secret Service. Damn good point. Welcome to my jump-seat. Now here's the O-2 mask ..

Mac

Yup, that's me. "You know how to work the O2, don'tcha?"

:rofl:

Ashcroft was warned in July 2001.

You might also want to ask the pilot: If Paine Stewart's jet got intercepted in 15 minutes after communications were broken, why the long wait on 9-11? Were the USAF and ANG standing down?

Ashcroft's warning and avoidance of commercial airlines that summer, along with certain other FAA warnings to all US airlines of increased potential for hijackings (we assumed the garden variety, not suicide missions), prompted me to radically change my personal way of doing business with my crews. Starting in late July 2001, my flight attendants and first officers got much more detailed pre-trip briefings from me.

In those pre-trip briefings (done before the first flight of a multi-day trip sequence), I always included the fact that the US Attorney General (and who else, that we never heard about?) had stopped flying on the airlines for security reasons. "Why is that?" I would ask the crew. They got the message, loud and clear. I was able to virtually stop all flight attendant and pilot traffic, in flight, through the cockpit door. We (the pilots) pissed at the departure airport, and we tried not to go to the lavatory in-flight. The F/A's gave us bottled water or coffee before push-back. We never ate the airline food, so meals were never offered (per the briefing, unless my co-pilot wanted food .. and they were all young and health-conscious).

The only time I can remember a flight attendant entering the cockpit after I started briefing the potential problem, was during a pressurization emergency on August 8 (ironic, eh Condi?). When the oxygen masks in the passenger cabin deployed, the lead flight attendant opened the cockpit door with her key to make sure that the pilots were OK and wearing their O-2 masks. She got my F/A DFC (Distinguished Flying Cross) for that move.

Those were strange and stressful times times. I think that summer's security stress had a bearing on my failure of my FAA flight physical on 9/10 (and subsequent grounding) for extremely high blood pressure.

Those were most interesting days. How different our world would be today if the pretzeldent had asked the CIA briefer on Aug. 8: "What can be done to protect the flying public?"

That Ashcroft story got a little play when it happened and then was glossed by Ashcan's testimony before the 9-11 commission and then buried for bad in the report.

You, in briefing your crews, did more than those two "officers" ever did to protect human life. May all who know the facts spread the word.

Reading as many of your posts as I've come across over the past five years now, I feel as I've gotten to know what life is like for a modern day commercial jetliner pilot and former multi-engine combat flyer. In both capacities, you are known as the consumate professional. And for that, I am in your debt. I also remember you once lived near Gen. Walker and that you've crossed paths more than once with Maj. Bath. I owe you there, too, for helping me understand his and his family's situation.



Most importantly: How have you been feeling? I remember the trouble some of the Houston(?) MDs gave you back then. For lowering BP, has your doctor recommended an exercise regimen? If so, ask him about kayaking. If you enjoy the water, it's a great workout and a fun way to get away from the cares of the land. Besides a stream, lake or ocean (or raging river for those who like to wear helmets in boats) You don't need wind, gasoline or anything other than a paddle and a 'yak.