Fat phobic culture

The results of this stigma and obessive hatred of fat...in America


People Willing To Lose Limb, Eyesight To Be Thin
46 Percent Willing To Give Up Year Of Life
Nearly half of people who responded to the study by the Rudd Center for Food Policy and Obesity said they would rather give up a year of their life than be fat.

The report, which received responses from more than 4,000 people, said people would be willing to give up their ability to have children and become depressed rather than be obese.


http://www.local6.com/health/9243976/detail.html

Yes, fat (prejuidice) kills.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/diet.fitness/10/14/fat.phobia.ap/index.html

Diet soda makes you fatter
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/13/health/webmd/main701408.shtml

Where does fat phobia come from?

In their research on culture, ideology, and anti-fat attitudes, Christian Crandall and Rebecca Martinez (1996) found that our **culture of individualism and self-responsibility** might have contributed to our attitudes about obesity. By comparing anti-fat attitudes in the United States to those in Mexico, they found that the attitude that one is responsible for one's weight is not prevalent in Mexico. More often, they found that people assumed it was part of the genes or the physical makeup of the person. Additionally, there was little antipathy toward fat people. The Americans believed that the fat people had no will-power, making them culpable for the obesity, and they registered a much higher aversion toward fat and fat people.

http://www.ejhs.org/volume5/Areton/03Background.htm

Hardly seems that we are a Fat-phobic culture now, does it?

Probably a lot of guys with big guts think it's funny to make fun of the "real lardasses". It's easy, especially in the US, to always find someone fatter than you are...

shirt. But he'll still get laughs. If it was a "No Black Chicks" or "No Latino Chicks" t-shirt, he might get beaten up somewhere.

"Ring around the collar! Ring around the collar!"

...next!

don't be so narrow-minded.

Most human problems are FAR more complicated than do A and B and you'll get C.

...the only people I've ever heard blame their presciptions for their obesity are also sendentary and eat a ton of high-cal, high-fat, low-nutrition junk food. My college roommate for example, would always claim the birth control pill "caused you to gain weight in feminine areas". We were both on the pill. She watched TV, binge-drank, and ate trash. I did endurance sports, never ate processed foods (and was vegetarian), and ate to nourish my body. She gained 25 pounds on the pill. I lost 5.
My point isn't that it's somehow morally better to be thin (it's not) but that you should accept (and love) your body as a product of your own thoughts and actions. If you truly respect and nurture your body and mind, no presciption will make you obese.

Many meds cause weight gain:

http://www.psycheducation.org/hormones/Insulin/weightgain.htm

Weight gain is clearly caused by medications used to treat bipolar disorder, some more than others.

This weight gain can be so large as to have its own serious health consequences, so we need to take it very seriously.

Physical activity and diet can help prevent this weight gain, and sometimes reverse it -- but simply telling patients to eat right and get exercise as a means of coping with the weight gain medications can induce is pretty close to an insult and generally simply attempts to shift the responsibility for the problem to the patient. It takes more than this simple advice.

More meds that cause weight gain:

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/causes/weight_gain.htm

but obesity isn't one of them.
eat too much and do too little and you will become obese.
it really is as simple as that.

and i should also mention that not everyone can eat the same foods and get the same results- you have to find the foods that are best for your bodies metabolism...but fresh fruit and vegetables are usually a good bet.

wouldn't be worth billions a year, and 95% of dieters wouldn't put the weight back on.

Did you know that every time you go on a diet, your metabolism slows down because your body thinks it's starving? And each time you diet and put the weight back on again, it becomes harder and harder to take the weight off in the first place?

Have you ever been overweight? If not, you're like an unmarried marriage counselor.

"going on a diet" is a stupid way to lose weight.
if people are FAT, they need to permanently change their eating/exercise habits, NOT try some temporary fad diet to quickly drop a few pounds.

and YES it really is as simple as changing the way you eat/exercise, and YES i used to be overweight.

the VAST majority of FAT people have nobody but themselves to blame- eat less, do more...it's THAT simple.

Just because something works for you doesn't mean it will work for everyone else. That, I have found, is the main problem with conservatives: they think that because THEY did it, EVERYBODY should be able to do it.

Keep on being self-congratulatory. Because you will someday have a problem you won't be able to solve.

eat less, do more.

it works.

the first thing people should cut from their diet is anything containing starch- NO: bread, pasta, potato, rice, corn, or flour in ANY form whatsoever. start with that, and see how much weight you lose after the first two months. and how much better you feel in general.

it works.

Pig out on vegetables and fruits!

QuestionAll: you seem like a proponent of Atkins / South Beach / high-protein diet. Am I correct? That may work for a while, but it's not realistic to say "never again eat any bread or pasta".

Gradual weight loss, and maintaining the desired weight, is the key. Just focus on wanting a healthy body. Sounds corny but it's true.

...with broccoli, spinach, watermelon, pineapple, asparagus, cantaloupe, artichokes, peaches, cherries, brussels sprouts, grapes, strawberries, and lots of tomatoes! (edited to add tomatoes)

That may work for a while, but it's not realistic to say "never again eat any bread or pasta".

why is it unrealistic? i DO NOT eat ANY starch. starch is NOT a natural part of the human diet.

it is difficult to do, but not impossible.

Obesity that we do in the U.S.

I refuse to believe that there is some kind of "American gene" which causes obesity.

It is all about willpower and self-respect.

god forbid any american be held accountable for their own actions and/or inactions.

As I said, I AM watching what I eat. I am exercising.... I did lose some weight. But guess what, I had a MS flare up, was put on steroids and gained some of it back.

Oh but that was my fault, that I had a flare up. Right?
I should have told the doctor, "No sorry, I can't do the meds. Dont want to gain any weight."

See that's what gets me.

I ran into someone who haven't seen in awhile and he said "You've really let yourself go."

I didn't go into what I Had been thru the last couple of years, of losing my sight for two months (steriods), trouble walking (steroids), losing the feeling in my legs (steriods.)

And with the roids, I gained weight...and it didn't help that I was struggling to walk.

as I said, before the MS I was very active. Now I'm trying to get back to where I was. But I don't know if I ever will.

I am trying to lose the weight.

but it's hard and depsite me doing what I am doing, I'm still overweight.

but at least I am walking.

I will say, just because a person is over weight does not mean that they have no will power.

Don't judge a book by their cover.

My hubby has MS as well and has the same problem. He can walk and drive, so many of his symptoms are "invisible" He tries very hard to lose weight, and does, but when the MS kicks his ass, there is not much he can do. And the rounds of steroids, immunosuppressents as well as other medication certainly don't help.
When someone asks how he's doing he says "I'm still vertical"

Like you said, Don't judge a book by it's cover.
:hug:

Please, please tell me that you said something to him like "And wow, you've become a giant asshole."

Your attitude is pathetic. Nobody is claiming there is an 'American gene' that causes obesity. What we're saying is that it is an extremely complex problem that canNOT be reduced to 'willpower and self-respect'.

And quit judging others.

Most prescription drugs have fattening side effects. Most people don't know that.

I know that for sure.

Yes, I'm overweight. But I try to eat a healthy diet, I don't eat that much, and I walk 2-4 miles 5 days a week. Despite all that, I'm still overweight. But my sugar levels and all the other blood work is good.

Of course having to take steroids and a host of other meds for my MS doesn't help one to keep a slim figure.

I'm going to keep up the walking and eating healthy. I'm doing what I am supposed to do. I think it's great that I'm able to walk as much as I am, considering two years ago, I was barely able to walk after a bad MS flare up.

But, I would rather be fat, then have to this MS get worse.

People can think what they want to about me. Say what they want to about me. But they aren't walking in these shoes.

Do what you're doing. It isn't important what people say. You're doing your best and that's a lot more than the majority. I think it's great you're walking so much, too. Stick with it.

Back in the fifties, models were normal sizes. Now, they've shrunk to size 0's as Americans have ballooned. It's sort of weird - almost like pop culture is creating an even more idealized, skinny, version of beauty as Americans in general become heavier. Making normal people feel even uglier. That's just self-hatred on a cultural level.

...was half the size it is today. and most people didn't eat out often, if ever.

Not only are the portions huge, the ingredients at restaurants are often not fresh, and they put things in food like MSG (no, not just in Chinese food) that you would never use in your own cooking.

If anything, maybe we should be MORE focused on eating right and exercising.

Spend ten minutes at a mall food court and tell me that we are a fat phobic culture. I'd say we are pretty darn fat accepting.

Something doesn't add up here.

It makes perfect sense to me. People hate their own shortcomings when they see them in others.

I think a lot of moderately overweight, unhealthy Americans LOVE seeing the morbidly obese who ride on badgers and suffer limited mobility. It allows them to scoff and feel superior to someone else.

I've been "moderately overweight" at times in my life and neither I nor anyone I ever knew in similar condition "love(d) seeing the morbidly obese" and none of us ever "scoffed" or "felt superior to someone else" as a result. We just felt bad about our physical condition until it got bad enough that we did something about it - increased exercise and paying attention to diet. And lost weight.

I think it's a matter of different people in the culture. There are those who are obese and those who are moderately overweight and those who are thin (for a panoply of reasons). It's pretty rare and pretty perverse for the thin to scorn the moderately overweight or for anyone to scorn the obese. Thin is simply healthier, so there's nothing wrong with trying to live a healthier life for oneself, and even if it becomes obsessive only the obsessives suffer from their obsession.

And I think the sex-repressed are an entirely different group of people as a whole from the sex-obsessed. Neither state of being seems a very happy one to me.

All of this I think has to do with an overall culture of excess, and the advertising that promotes it for company profits at the expense of the populace.

American consumer culture and the competitive path we are set on from infancy manages to destroy or diminish any empathy in a lot of people, producing a nation of very callous people. A lot of us are capable of empathy, but only for people who look like us. A dead brown person just doesn't register any more than those swollen-bellied babies we saw on the Christian Children's fund ads when we were growing up. We become callous to it all, and it's all just a big TV show, so far away as to not be real. And those mammoth people on badgers, they're not people with feelings. They're just the inferior other, there to make us feel better about ourselves.

And it's nothing new. Hitler knew how to exaggerate and turn the semitic "hook-nose" and Jewish knack for business into the face of a rat and the character of a sneaky swindler, making his target audience feel superior. If Bush thought it would profit him politically, he might just as well be demonizing the obese right now, rather than gays.

But fortunately for the obese, a great many Fundamentalist Christians ignore the Bible's warnings about gluttony and are obese themselves.

I'm damn sure I'm more desensitized than I want to be. But a lot less so than when I was a teenager. I used to get a kick out of gory entertainments, now they make me wince.


Something like that is totally subjective and impossible to quantify, but I do know that our culture has a lot less of an emphasis on empathy than the Japanese culture (where I live now).

Children are taught from toddler age to have empathy, not only for living things, but even for inanimate objects. "How do you think your t-shirt feels when you cut it with the scissors, Takeshi?"

Even in adulthood, people still invest a sense of "being" into inanimate objects here. Quite fascinating. A sushi chef will talk about his knives as though they were co-workers almost, and sharpen them often and with care, doting on them.

People here, even men, cry at the drop of a hat, and I see elementary school boys running around holding hands in a wholesome, natural way, without the homophobic self-consciousness we instill in boys from such a young age here.

But I'm getting off the subject.

It is fortunate, though, that the emotional bumps, scrapes, and body blows we take as we make our way through life do help us to learn empathy. I just think our competitive consumer culture delays its onset, and in some people, like our president, it never comes at all.

in the U.S. is that the vast majority of Americans lack any real sense of empathy for a host of reasons. And that insensitivity also makes us stupid people. We keep electing corrupt morons to lead us.

"that's disgusting!". I know they could hear him. Guess what - he also hated gays, talked about killing Arabs, and was a die-hard Republican. Judgmental people will always find a reason to hate other people.

Our society is competitive and judgmental. I'm sure in 15 years or so they'll find out being overweight isn't as bad as they say it is.

It's funny that people say they would give up a year of their life to be thin, since being obese decreases longevity by MANY years.


I agree that it's totally wrong top be judgmental towards fat people. Our food is too nutrient-depleted, overprocessed, chemical-treated and unbalanced to expect the average person to always make the right dietary choices, much less a person with a genetic propensity towards overweight. Not to mention the fact that we are simultaneously bombarded by ads featuring muscular-rippled studs and skinny/curvaceous sex bombs, as well as ads of goo-dripping Cinnabons and sizzling steaks and steaming pizzas. We are being trained from an early age to think that there is nothing bizarre about a single serving of soda being 32, 48, or 64 ounces. No, it's not surprising that obesity is skyrocketing.

But an aversion to fat itself is good. Anything to keep us aware of it and to keep us watching our intake of food is a good thing. It's easy to let it get out of control. By simply not paying attention or caring, I let my weight go from 190 lbs to 275 lbs in just 6 years. I finally got my weight down to 200 a few months ago, and it's much better. It's not so great saying no to seconds, eating a salad when I want a grilled cheese, etc., but my mobility is better, I feel better, my clothes fit better - it's just plain better. I hope everyone can find the courage to do whatever they can to get the extra weight off, because it really does feel better, and I hate giving people the message that "you can't". What could be more cruel than that?

Sleep apnea, I gained a lot fast. I soared to 350! So I know that end well, I made it back down to 175 but it was a struggle and required a medically supervised fast. You're right, shedding the weight makes a huge difference in one's vitality, but it requires an investment in eating correctly. Money many may not be able to spend.

I threw the question out rhetorically, knowing the answer full well. Our media driven culture promotes unobtainable idealized body types. Very few can measure up!

I had a godmother that was VERY fat (like close to 275 lbs.). She died at the age of ... 101! Cause of death was deemed to be "old age".

:kick:

smoked 2 packs a day for over 77 years, he died in his 90's - also "old age". That's hardly proof that smoking isn't bad for you.

since being obese decreases longevity by MANY years.

False.

You will not find a single study that shows that. Not one.

You will find lots of studies whose abstracts claim that, but the data never back it up.

You will find a whole lot of studies clearly showing that weight fluctuation decreases longevity.

That's right, weight loss.

Short of morbid obesity, weight itself has no discernable impact on longevity, as long as you control for weight fluctuation.

We have a generation of nutritionists suffering from an anorexic ideation. I didn't believe it when a nutritionist friend told me that (he was blackballed for pointing out that studies' data don't really match what the studies' abstracts claim). So I went into pub med and looked. And, sad to say, he's right. We have about 30 years worth of "science" on nutrition and weight that doesn't even follow its own data to their clear conclusions.

This anorexic ideation is killing people by making healthy people change weight their whole lives, which makes them sick. The government's weight guidelines are ridiculously anorexic. And that's not all nutritionists do stupidly; look at how they lowered the "dangerous" cholestorol level a couple of years back... wow, out of nowhere, almost every American is now eligible for pointless, dangerous, profitable cholestorol-lowering drugs.

Until nutritionists can actually address the data their studies provide, this isn't a science. It's the modern version of astrology.

For the weight fluctuation decreases longevity stuff. I'd be interested in reading them.

This is a unusually candid editorial from BMJ about the subject; it lists copious studies. Of particular interest are Wannamathee, and Iribarren.

I love open-access journals...

The author is mainly addressing that people who gain weight and then put it on again may be doing a disservice, not that people who are significantly overweight should not make any effort to lose weight.

Are you going to tell me that high blood pressure and diabetes that are the result of being overweight don't hurt longevity?

Because you have cause and effect reversed. A genetic tendency to be diabetic causes both obesity and weight gain, not the reverse. And high blood pressure is far more strongly correlated with high lean body mass than with fat.

No study has ever found that lowering cholesterol via the use of medications actually reduces the risk of heart disease. But enough stories have linked high cholesterol with heart disease that people will believe anything.

Another very important point about all of this is that there is a major difference between being overweight and obese. I had a former doctor tell me that at 15 pounds over my "ideal" weight, I was obese. I do not believe I was unhealthy at that weight. There are a lot of people who think that being even 30 pounds overweight is just as dangerous as being 100 pounds overweight.

I exercise moderately and try to watch what I eat. I'm about 20 pounds above my "ideal weight" right now and I've had people call me fat (when you're short, being 20 pounds overweight is more noticeable). But I really don't care. I am doing the right things to promote my health; the fact that I don't fit some arbitrary standard of what I should weigh doesn't matter to me.

People brag about how little sleep they get, how many hours they work, and how many things they are involved in. Popular culture and advertisements encourage people to strive for better and not be satisfied. We are encouraged to be strong individuals and to be tied to nothing except perhaps our spouse and children. All that takes a toll. Like many Americans, I suffer from anxiety.
I have seen various figures but anxiety decreases a person's lifespan by more than extra weight. Anxiety causes most health problems as well.
We condems fat. We idolize the anxiety lifestyle.

nt

Ever notice how many kids these days are diagnosed as having Attention Deficit Disorder?

Children are SUPPOSED to be active. They are SUPPOSED to prefer running around to sitting still, they fidget (hell, I still fidget and I'm 38), they get bored when there's too many kids in class and they've already learned the lesson.

Kids used to be able to go home and play in the yard with friends. Now there's basketball practice, oboe lessons, piano lessons, this organized activity, that organized activity.

One of the main causes of ADD is sleep deprivation. All these organized activities include getting to and going from. I am NOT opposed to these activities, it's when every second is scheduled to 10PM for an eight year old that the poor kid never gets enough sleep and never gets to just run around and be a kid.

There are some kids who truly do have a chemical imbalance. But when just about every child under 15 that you know is identified as having ADD, you start to wonder. Is this a true diagnosis, or is someone slapping a bandaid on a systemic problem?

I've been there. If you haven't slept enough, your body wants food.

...which is some cases and some places IS beginning to taper off (no pun intended).

I see far too many reports passing over my desk of follow-up surgery and consultations for complications from gastric bypasses. Even the "healthy" ones are frequently in the office for B-12 shots, so there's that, too.

I am overweight myself, but still very active, mobile and active. Yet my gynecologist broached the subject of the surgery last year. He was shocked when I told him I'd sooner put a bullet in my brain. Some may "rather give up a year of their life to be thin." I've made a rough peace with myself about my weight, and yes, I exercise.

Along with the fat-phobic culture goes a desire to live forever and look young as long as possible. I'll take a pass on those, TYVM. I don't look my age (but there are some mornings I sure do FEEL it) but I'm ready to "check out" at any time. Getting old in America the way we have policies and programs laid out now, especially for singles, is a horror show.

I had a Duodenal Switch w/Biliopancreatic Diversion this past November. I have lost 95 lbs. and feel fantastic. I haven't had one complication or problem and neither have most of the other DS'ers on the discussion board where we gather. I can eat more normally than an RNY patient and have no issues with input/output that RNYers can also have. I take an ADEK and Dry A & D every day and my labs are fine.

It was the best thing I could have done for myself!!

causes of obesity then just over eating and/or not getting enough excercise. The fact that genetics and allergies plays a part has been known for some time now but more recently it's also been found that some "normal" stuff when in a person's life for a prolonged period of time, like stress and not getting enough sleep, can also slow your metabolism down to sludge.

It's unfortunate that people judge others by their appearance so much. Some of the warmest and most caring "quality" people I've ever known have not fit into the "social norm" some insist on judging by.

Sleep apnea isn't always weight-related, but it can cause hypertension, sap your daytime energy and make it difficult to lose weight. Quite a trap, eh?

Anyone can have sleep apnea - even young women. I have mixed apnea, a combination of anatomy (very small airways) and a brain that "forgets" to breathe. Sleep apnea can do more than just give you hypertension - it can cause a stroke or death.

and other reasons (metabolic syndromes, allergies etc) for being obese (as opposed to a bit fat) are so rare as to be statistically irrelevant.

Stress etc can certainly make you gain weight (or for me lose it) but it CAN NOT make you obese, to reach obesity you need to have consumed FAR more calories than is neccesary and expended less energy than is desirable.

Also, it takes better-than-minimum-wage salary to afford a healthy diet. Processed food, which is a sponge of unhealthy oils (from frying), starches & sugars (carbohydrates), and additives, are not digested and transformed into energy; they are turned into fat cells and processed food is often more affordable and convenient than the time and money in finding and preparing affordable fresh fruits and vegetables, whole grains, etc. (emphasis on the preparation as lots of folks have mor than one job and not a lot of time to cook).

I am only about 15 pounds overweight, and you certainly wouldn't look at me and say, "Wow, she's a fattie" at all, but I was recently diagnosed with Hashimoto's Disease, a thyroid condition. I thought at first that it was just another fad, an excuse hypocondriacs use to justify their lack of interest in losing weight through diet/exercise. But when I went to Dallas' number one endocrinologist, and he did further blood tests, and showed me a sonogram of my thryoid, and really explained it, it made sense. I've been on medication for about twi months now, but don't really see any difference in my symptoms (which I didn't really notice until m doctor felt my thyroid and suspected a problem) - fatigue and puffy face, mostly. I am due for another round of blood tests and a tweaking of my prescription, but my doctor was kind enough to give me three months' worth in case I didn't find a job with medical iunsurance (which, of course, I haven't! Welcome to the greatest country in the world!).

Anyway, the fresh foods thing is a BIG problem. I am a poor young 'un, living alone in a very small apartment on an ever-decreasing budget. Finding time and energy to buy and prepare fresh, healthy foods is difficult - not to mention expensive. I was just about to go to the grocery store this morning, actually! And was scratching my head about what to buy that won't end up going off before I make it.

I also have Hashimoto's Disease and am about 15 pounds heavier than I'd like to be. I also have an ongoing anemia problem, which just makes it harder to exercise.

You're right about what's affordable vs what's healthy. Without housemates, you're also stuck either eating it all at once or putting it away to reheat and then forgetting about it until it's gone rancid.

I used to be a scrawny kid, too.

They are a remarkable food. I'm partial to black-eyed peas...

--and a crappy single studio with a hotplate, a tabletop fridge and no freezer how easy it is to make up a batch of this stuff to last just about forever.

Beans are way cheaper than any of the crapola they sell at McDonald's, and they last forever dry. You just cook them up when you need them. I'm not saying nobody should ever go to Mickey D's, but making it your staple diet is DUMB, whether you're rich or poor.

This is the first time I've ever heard ANYONE claim that cooking up a pot of beans was hard. It's about as easy as it gets, and it CAN be done on a hotplate.

That's why I do big pots and store the surplus. What person with three part time jobs has the time to keep track of a two hour cooking process? Try reading Ehrenreich's Nickeled and Dimed for some pungent descriptions of how hard it is to find time to cook and eat anything among the new poor.

Thyriod and high cortosil commonly go together. I've had adrenal fatigue (result of stress) and initially the high cortisol levels will REALLY pack on the fat. Of course when you crash and 'burn out' your adrenal gland you are left w/o any cortisol.

Anyway - good luck to you and if you have a chance check your cortisol / dhea levels.

Yes the quality of what you eat has a lot to do with the development of various conditions. I'm not horribly overweight myself (maybe 20 lbs.). I was shocked when blood work showed I had elevated blood sugar.

So what I did was change my diet. I knocked out all of the "junk" foods and the "trans fats" found in these cheap foods that people buy.

I buy less food now but it is high quality - either organic or the best quality I can find with the least amount of additives and preservatives.

I went again for blood work and my blood sugar is now at 85. So I guess diet was indeed the culprit and no, I have not lost any weight, I just changed my diet.

Does it cost more? Not really. That junk food was costly too and in more than one way.

:kick:

"That junk food was costly too and in more than one way."

It's just the going to the grocery store every two or three days, after a long day at work, then coming home late to face cooking and cleaning up (no dishwasher here, folks) is a bit daunting. You feel like you 'owe' it to yourself to veg out, err lard out, as the case may be. Order a pizza, watch TV, rest your neurons. Really you owe it to yourself NOT to do that.

When my family wants to eat Taco Bell or pizza, I find it hard to sit down to a salad. I'm happy that there are some fast food places that do have healthy items on their menus, although crazily enough many of the salads are high in fat.

I'm over 50 years old, 100 pounds overweight, and healthy as can be with normal blood pressure and normal labs. Some days I like myself just fine, some days I am angry at society for making me feel less than human, and some days I am angry at myself for letting myself go this way. I gained the 100 pounds over a couple of years when I worked two sedentary jobs, slept very little and ate a lot.

When I was younger I could gain 10 pounds and taken it off whenever I wanted. I still can; it's that next 90 that seems to be the problem. There's just no easy fix; even with the bariatric surgery if you have an underlying problem with food it will still be there.

I'm the heaviest in my family, but I do a lot of the cooking and my wife hates junk food, so that helps...

One of them is made with organic chicken in fact. I buy them on sale when they have sales (last time around it was $2.99 a dinner). I stocked up on these because I have very low energy and frequently am just too tired to cook.

I've also found other ways to work around this problem. I make a huge lasagna every so often of all organic vegetables and other items as they may be available. Organic cheeses are very expensive so I tend to buy just regular cheese (the recipe uses 3 different cheeses).

After I cook this whole huge thing I let it set in the refrigerator overnight and the next day I cut it up into single servings and freeze them in Tupperware. I usually get at least 8 large meals out of one of these huge lasagnas. Total cost is maybe $10 to make one. That saves a lot of money and time and it is also very good for you (contains spinach, zucchini, mushrooms, onions, garlic, tomato sauce/diced tomatoes which I buy on sale canned/organic).

There are ways around being too tired to cook. I have many ways I work around this problem. :)

:kick:

to eat healthy foods that are good for you. In fact, I would argue that you can actually spend LESS money on a balanced diet. It does take some planning and effort, though.

Eating well does not mean shopping only and health food stores, buying organic or going to Whole Foods. Fruits and vegetables are much cheaper than meat, especially in the summer when Farmer's Markets are plentiful. In the winter, frozen food is nearly as nutritious or freeze and can items in the summer for winter.

Beans, in all shapes and sizes, and eggs are both inexpensive, high quality sources of proteins and can be used to create a huge variety of dishes. Barilla pasta now makes a protien pasta that pushes it lower on the glycemic scale.

I always pack lunch and snacks for work and stay away from the vending machines and fast-food places. I eat better and spend less money on food than a lot of people I know. If you're pressed for time, cook and freeze on the weekends for the week or make a huge salad, pot of vegetable soup, etc. and eat it for the next few days.

with only a hotplate, a tabletop refrigerator and no freezer how does that work?

On livejournal.com, there is cheapvegan. I'm sure there is more. Working and limited kitchen facilities is absolutly no excuse to have a shitty diet.

--and time and everything else stressed.

two years ago, I spent several months not knowing where my next meal was coming from. Okay, so I think I know what I'm talking about here. I'm been in a position when I've been scrounging for change, snagging food off of friends or stealing food. So I really think that I can talk about a low-income lifestyle...m'kay?

Right. And I'm Marie of Roumania.

They're cheap and easy to make. I still didn't eat any fast food. I didn't gain any weight. It can be done.

Since you had to steal food, how'd you manage to get those sacs of beans and grains past the security guards?

It's only "easy" in the sense of "not very complex." How is someone who works at the 7-11 during the day and as a phone solicitor at night supposed to find 2 extra hours?

to eat more healthy food.

A homeless person can get a hamburger for a buck. It's harder to get healthier food for a buck. To buy two eggs or a bowl of warm (healthy) bean soup.

I can afford to buy a dozen eggs and cook two in my kitchen. Or buy an assortment of beans to cook soup and freeze it in my freezer.

Plus, I read sometime ago that things tend to cost more in lower income neighborhoods - because the smaller stores buy in smaller quantities and because of other stuff. So, my eggs would cost more in a different neighborhood, too, although they cost enough right here in my mixed blue-collar one.

The actual cost of the unit of food is just one part of the problem, imho.

as a matter of fact, when I was putting myself through college working full time and a full time student, I was 20 pounds lighter than I am now, and a LOT poorer and time-starved. I also could not afford a car and rode a bike, walked, and rode the bus more, which also helps, but takers more time.

Fresh food, which can sometimes take a bit longer to prepare, is so much cheaper than packaged or fast food in the long run. But there are TONS of fresh food options which don't take much time, especially if you can make an extra portion or two. Hummus (from any kind of beans, and if you lack space/eqipment, canned beans are still super cheap), salsa (tomatoes and peppers and onions are all cheap and can be eaten raw), breads, etc. I could not afford processed food for years to be honest.

I also at various times worked in restaurant kitchens (full time and/or on the side) to have access to a kitchen and food, because I could not afford much else.

I have a lot of sympathy for people without money and time and space, but sometimes you need to stop blaming everything around and make changes to your life, as much as you are able to.

We supposedly have this high standard of living, yet the food choices for those even slightly below middle class are not very good in terms of nutritional value.

Really - it's true! In their spare moments, when they're not jamming doughnuts down their gullets with both hands (because we all know that that's all fat people do is eat eat eat - if they were just better people they'd put down that fork and say no to that food! It's just that easy!) they're wrecking the economy with their health issues - nevermind that researchers and doctors think that the prediposition to be diabetic is the thing that may cause the initial weight gain - and by making us look at them! zomg!11! It's just so easy easy easy to lose weight - that's why everyone else is thin, and there's just a very few fat people, because fat is a choice made by lazy, sloppy, stupid ugly gross fat fat fat people who have made the choice to be fat. Because, you know, there's no downside to being fat - everyone's so super nice to those worthless lardasses, and it's about time that that stops, for their own good! I bet they don't even know they're fat! They just put on their plus-size clothes and are CLUELESS about their weight, so it's up to us to tell them, and tell them that it's so easy to lose weight (that's why it's a multi-billion dollar industry - ya know, because losing weight is easy and permanent and always safe - ask the 48 out of 50 bariatric surgery patients who don't don't die from the surgery) for their own damn good. And so we don't have to look at them.

I take issue with the assumption that any concern over the expanding waist bands in the west is down to plain old nastiness. I spent a few years seriously underweight and I copped a LOT of crap for it, people said things to me that they would never have DREAMED of mentioning to someone overweight. Eg I never once heard my boss tell a large co-worker that she was "even fatter than week" - replace the word fat with skinny and that's what he said every fucking morning, so I well understand that people can be right shits (the best response to stupid ignorant mean comments is surely to mention how ugly the person is, a situation that will not change regardless of their diet) BUT that doesn't mean being obese is healthy, that it isn't causing a strain on the health service or that to lose weight is simple (pls note I said simple not easy) less calories in than out. The weight loss industry is huge because people fall for easy options - ie frozen meals and meal replacements that will never work long term. The only effective long term solution is to change one's lifestyle which need not cost a penny.

They are the causes of EVERYTHING!

One big High School "speak no evil" popularity contest.

One big snobby neverending Martha Stewart fashion show.

One huge moronic "how long is your schlong" locker room showdown.

One widespread socially retarded wedgiefest.

One nationwide race to the bottom of the overclorinated pool.

I was 20 lbs overweight when I was 20 yrs old and it was uncomfortable! My gut hurt. I gained the weight super-quickly because I had a big-eating, food-indulgent boyfriend.

I previously posted the fact that I was a chubby kid who loved to eat a lot, up until about 6th grade, when I got tired of peoples' snide comments. I was only just a little chubby, but I still got occasional "fattie" comments.
Never tell a teen s/he should lose weight. He/she already knows!

Obesity, and overweight, causes health problems. Ask any doctor. Obesity is unhealthy for the body. Yes it sucks to be overweight, but there are things you can do to combat the weight. Don't lose weight because "they" tell you to. Do it for yourself.

...never has it helped them to suffer verbal abuse. To the contrary, such abuse usually sends them running for the comfort food.

And even if our juvenile delinquent culture does have some upsides, which plainly in this case it does not, that would not make it right, or any less shameful.

I was one, once. I had a good upbringing but I still had some depression and anxiety.
No matter how tough you think you are as a teen, you're still vulnerable. It's so typical for teenagers to boast "not me, I'm way too smart."

No offense, but maybe they know remaining obese will shorten lifespans by more than just one year.

And willing to accept depression? There's not already a connection between obesity and depression?

And yes, I admit I am prejudiced. But still I don't think the poll is scientific enough or does much other than starting discussion.

"How much of your life would you give up to spend the rest of your life without 'xyz' condition?"

Its a way to objectively determine how a condition subjectively affects someone with it, a misery index of sorts. My understanding is that people with certain conditions would give up more than a year to be rid of chronic conditions.

I dont know if it is a poll so much as it is a survey. I think big pharma and corporate medicine are into it. Its a way of 'proving' how seriously someone suffering from anything from asthma to dry eye is willing to sacrifice get rid of it. Hence R&D, treatment and costs are upgraded.

It is an attention getter, but subjective.

through them? Or would you rather live 24 more years and be thin through them".

I agree that the poll isn't scientific. I wonder how hard it is to NOT be depressed when the whole world is telling you you are second rate.

My friend had a heart attack from the shock and grief and couldn't even attend her daughter's funeral. Her 30 something daughter left two young children behind.

...And people look at disgust at fat people, as if they should have this surgery and risk their lives to appear pleasing to society. That's BS.

But it is not for people who are simply heavy. It is an individual choice, but if I were bedridden from obesity, I poersonally would probably do it. If I were Carnie Wilson and just very overweight, I would have maybe tried a few more things first, but I do understand that the pressure on her must have been enormous.

I do agree, though, it is life-threatening surgery and not to be entered into lightly.

But I'm sure the doctors tell you that.

>But it is not for people who are simply heavy.<

There is a rigorous qualification process, including more than one session with a psychologist. The person in question must be proven to have no ability to lose weight under normal circumstances. There can be significant complications as a result of surgery as well.

Julie

:(

But finding the strength to change your lifestyle is not easy. Especially, when we live in a culture of accepted and promoted excess.

Yep, I'm one. Although I was a chubby kid, I was rail thin from about age 12 on up through adulthood. About eight years ago, I suddenly started to gain weight. I wasn't eating more than usual, but I started dieting anyway. Kept gaining weight. Joined the gym with my husband, who was very into the science of fitness. "Calories in, calories out" was his mantra. After several months exercising under his watchful eye, and STILL GAINING, he finally looked over my shoulder at the number on the scale and said, "Okay, now you're defying the laws of physics."

I sure was. Thirty-odd pounds later (packed on in less than a year), I finally was diagnosed with hypothyroidism, which, I found out later, ran in both sides of my family.

So sometimes there's more to that overweight person than meets the eye.

Gained about 30 lbs in three months despite a similar diet to what I had eaten all the rest of my life. After going to the doctor, I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism. Medication keeps me from gaining any more weight, but it is very difficult for me to lose it for whatever reason(the medication? the basic disease? who knows...the doctors and researchers don't give enough of a crap to find out why being on Synthroid hinders weight loss, but it does seem to be a common occurrence anecdotally).

I basically have to starve and exercise myself into exhaustion to lose more than about 1/4 lb a week. I know several people who have "dieted" eating approximately what I eat for a normal diet and have lost tens of pounds, but I don't lose anything at all, even with the addition of exercise. I am beginning to think that I will keep these extra 30 lbs all my life unless I do something drastic.

My mother is also medicated hypothyroid. She also had about 30 extra lbs, but was extremely athletic (way more than me). She and my father used to take month long bicycle trips, and they walked 5-7 miles a day, every day, rain, sleet, or snow. The weight never came off for her either until she went on a hard core low carb diet. Now she's at a normal weight, but you never saw anyone eat so carefully to maintain it. It's ridiculous what she has to eat to not gain it back.

Neither of us are predisposed to weight gain other than the thyroid thing. We are both small boned and were both very skinny up until getting hypothyroid in our late 20s.

You just never know what people's situations are. It really pisses me off that people judge me for my weight when they don't know anything about me. (And believe me, I know that I'm being judged negatively, because I remember how I was treated when I was skinny.)

:hug:

I went hardcore low-carb about four years ago and lost 12 lbs., but I hated every minute of it. It was insane!

Then my fertility came back and I got pregnant and now I'm back to square one! :banghead:

Working out at the gym doesn't do ANYthing for me, although I haven't quit trying (Mr. MorningGlow reminds me it's good for my heart--yeah yeah yeah whatever).

Here's to ya, hypo sistah! :toast: (That's low-carb beer in there.)

and had my thyroid removed,so naturally I have to take Synthroid. They keep changing the dosage depending on blood work,but I still can't lose weight. I imagine people probably think I am just a chowhound(although I'm only moderately overweight). People should not make assumptions,and I really WISH that it was ice cream etc. that was responsible for the shape I'm in....it would have been a lot more fun that having thyroid cancer:)

as you can tell by my screen name..I am a competitve powerlifter...and a big girl.I work out over 16 hours a week,and watch what i eat,for the most part.I'm at the point where I am considering gastric bypass surgery.It sucks.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

Most (yes, i know, not all) cases are correctable through lifestyle.

I was a chubby kid too. I know the heartbreak of "Huskies".

>Most (yes, i know, not all) cases are correctable through lifestyle.<

Again, what medical training do you possess in order to make this statement?

Julie

What med school did you graduate from?
How long have you been practicing?
What is your specialization?

Thanks,
Julie

You'd rather insinuate that he's a liar because he disagrees with you.

The politics of personal destruction. That's cold.

>The politics of personal destruction. That's cold.<

I don't think it's unreasonable to request that anyone representing themselves as a doctor back up their statements.

Julie

does not necessarily make him an expert. Many MDs are still uninformed assholes. I've seen some pretty fat doctors in my day. One of the fattest people I've ever seen in "real life" was an OB GYN. Just got through with a temp assignment working with many nurses ... gosh there were a lot of fat people amongst these educated medical professionals.
:shrug:

education? Most take none.

The only result of lifestyle changes is weighing slightly less and being healthier. Obesity stays constant.

Like extended work hours at sedentary crap minimum wage jobs in places with no public transportation, and less time to prepare whole foods.

Even in the absense of a medical condition like yours, dieting and weight-cycling in themselves lead to fatness. When you lose weight, your fat cells shrink but don't disappear unless you get lipo. With each successive gain/loss yo yo cycle it becomes easier to gain and harder to lose. Add to that aging and the behavioral component where your ability to gage true hunger becomes muted and you alternate between rigid control and overeating and it becomes nigh on impossible to be slender. But there's no convincing ignorant judgemental people of Slimfast Nation, who think all it takes is "one shake at lunch and a sensible dinner" to get your weight to whatever you want. :eyes:

The husband, the wife and the two kids. I don't think the husband was always obese but the wife was. And her two kids took after her, I am surprised she was able to have kids. She is the nicest person, I feel so bad for her because my sister told me her children are always made fun of at school and the girl (age 10) finally decided to do that gastric bypass surgery. The surgery was a success. It was shown on the news and everything. The topic was "Obese kids". Not too long ago, the daugher had to return to the hospital for dehydration. She looked really bad but you can tell she did lost some weight. She still has a long way to go. And over the weekend I found out she had to return once again to the hospital for dehydration. I am praying she gets through the problems faced with this surgery. It's awful that a little girl (and boy) has to go through all the demeaning fat jokes. And we all know kids can be so cruel.

I'm fat-phobic in the sense that I'm also afraid of becoming diabetic or being unhealthy. I want to be able to exercise and have physical endurance.

"fat" years, or you could live 24 more years and have them be thin years.

Not "I'd sacrifice 1 year to gain 10".

..I have mixed feelings about this issue.

On the one hand, I do think that general health should be emphasized in our culture more that weight. I know when I am active I feel a lot better physically and psychologically. I also feel that - much like with the sex issue - we are a very conflicted society on this. Americans are on average less active and eat larger portions than we should and are gaining weight.

On the other hand, not only do I never make fun of or even make an issue about anyone being "fat", I hate to hear people complain about how they are "fat pigs" when it's so not true. We have been brainwashed by media and advertising to think that anyone heavier than Ally McBeal is huge, and it is so damaging to us in many ways.

I think we need to re-educate ourselves. People come in a wide variety of body types and sizes, and beauty can be found in all of that variety. There needs to be a healthy balance between striving to improve and stay active and in seeing what is positive instead of dwelling on the negative.

Personally, a good personality goes a long way in attraction, and I think that I am not as much in the minority as some would believe.

I will say this also: as much as cringe when someone constantly picks at their own flaws, I truly hate when people pick on others' flaws, and often ignore the fact that they may have the same or worse problem. Men are very guilty of this, and popular culture props it up too.

Who doesn't want action in bed?

:rofl:

and can't say that I have ever experienced prejudice.
I've never applied for a job that I didn't get.
I have never had a problem with interpersonal relationships.
I am not saying that it doesn't exist, just that I haven't experienced it.:shrug:

...

If they just want, as it were, to not be hated or mistreated because they're fat (not sure how to word that - hope that made sense), then that's *completely* fair enough.

Reading through threads like these, which pop up regularly though, I get the feeling that fat folks want/demand that they be considered by the average Joe/Josephine as every bit as attractive as someone who isn't fat. And that anyone who doesn't find fat to be hot is therefore prejudiced in some bad way.

I think that's going to far - that it's not morally wrong to consider, of two people who are alike in all other ways, the non-overweight one as being more physically attractive.

Of course personal tastes can vary on this - I'm talking about on the average.

Please note that I explicitly said "alike in all other ways".

And it is completely to be acknowledged that people (typically girls in our society) can go WAY overboard on the not-fat tip, and end up looking absolutely awful (Lindsay Lohan comes to mind quickly here) - when they looked awesome to begin with.

In general, I think it's unfair in the extreme to think of someone as anything like predjudiced because they aren't turned on by the thought of rolls of fat wiggling through their hands.


EDIT: Flamesuit ON!

It's of course just fine if someone IS turned on by that - different strokes for different folks.

Surely you can say this better than that. :eyes:

... about overweight folks? Maybe - I don't claim to be terribly slick with words...

Nevertheless - I'm TOTALLY with fat folks on the idea that whether or not one person (or many for that matter) finds them physcially attractive should be COMPLETELY separate from their value as a person, as a coworker, as a parent, etc.

I could really give a crap whether anyone other than my husband thinks I'm "attractive" any more, fat, skinny or in-between.

What really upsets me, though, is the invisibility. When I was skinny, I was a person to other people. Now I'm just a blank spot in space. People don't look at me, they don't recognize that I'm standing next to them, they ignnore me in conversations, etc. This was never the case when I was skinny. The way people treated me changed literally overnight after I gained weight (see above re: being diagnosed with hypothyroidism), and it definitely wasn't me, at least at first. I spent several months being mystified as to why I didn't seem to exist to other people anymore until I figured it out.

I've also been made fun of on several occasions in the past few years, and it hurt my feelings. The saddest part is that I'm not even that fat. I'm just not the skinny girl I used to be, and it's totally acceptable for people to make fun of others about their weight nowadays. It's the new black or Jew or *insert generic stigmatized-group-targeted-by-assholes here*

So...attractive? No. There are many ways in which I don't and will never again measure up to society's standard of beauty. Even if I was Ally McBeal, I'm not getting any younger. I'm over that already.

Treated like a human being? Yes. That's all I want. People to be interested in me because I am an interesting person, even if I don't have the body of an 18 year old.

What's so wrong with that?

everyone reads it.

Oh my god that is so true! If you're fat you're either invisible or a target. Almost never a human being.

I'm 36 and happily married to a guy who loves me just the way I am (and the feeling is mutual). I don't have any desire to be hit on or whistled at or anything like that. I don't expect or want everyone to find me attractive. I don't find tanned muscle-bound men attractive either, so we're even. But when I walk into a store, a restaurant, or anywhere really, I would like to be acknowledged. I would like to be treated like a human. That is all. I can't tell you the number of times I've been ignored when I walk into a place, but a thin young woman walks in after me and suddenly the staff (men and women alike) are tripping over themselves to help her. Hello? I don't look like I'm going to rob the place, I don't smell, I'm not a raving bitch, I have money to spend, I dress well. I'm just overweight. What, only supermodels buy things or need help?

To be left the hell alone and not lectured every minute of the day about how we're killing ourselves, driving up health insurance costs, etc. That's what we want!

Isn't all that hot to begin with so who the hell are they to think they're entitled to cast public judgement on every other person they see? The problem isn't if you aren't attracted to a particular body type, that's completely your prerogative. It's when you feel compelled to air your preferences at any time and expect others to comply with them. That's what wearing a "No Fat Chicks" shirt does. I don't find the majority of men sexually attractive but, unlike some of the rude-asses I know, I don't find it necessary to comment (loudly) about the physical attributes of the men in my midst.


Try this, if you can't say anything nice - KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!

drug addiction that said something like "Recovering alcoholics have to completely swear off alcohol because they know that even one drink spells disaster. Same for drug addicts. Yet food addicts still have to eat in order to live. Every single day they must ingest the thing they are addicted to, while simultaneously trying to beat their addiction. And while alcoholism and drug abuse is considered (rightly so) to be a disease, obesity is still very much considered to be a character flaw."

I thought that was very interesting. It's true, obesity seems to be the one thing left that is open season for people to ridicule mercilessly. I don't get what makes people so quick to judge.

Food addicts have to take the kitty out and pet him three times a day.

Thank you.

Thanks. I guess that's what bothers me so much about people being so willing to ridicule others who struggle with weight. And food addiction is just one factor. Others have disorders and diseases that cause them to gain weight. But it's always immediately assumed that a fat person is lazy, never exercises, has no self-control, and thinks about nothing but food.

you don't have to never touch another drop of alcohol to beat alcoholism, you can still occasionally take drugs you were once addicted to.

Personally (as a recovered addict myself) I never viewed addiction as a disease, it happened because I took a shitload of a certain substance for a period of time and my body became physically addicted to it. I took the substance, not anyone else and not my genes. Food is the same, except of course it's not actually addictive. An addictive substance, if used repeatedly for a long period WILL produce a physical addiction, if that was the case with food then every person on earth with access to food would be obese.

or another drug again once you've recovered. Just because you are someone who *can* have a single drink and be okay (my uncle couldn't even use mouthwash once he got sober), you still could survive quite nicely for the rest of your life without ever taking another. In other words, those who truly cannot stop with one drink needn't ever tempt themselves. Food addicts stare down that temptation every single meal, every single day. They have no choice.

Also there is no NEED to over eat, there is no NEED to eat hydrogenated fats and other shite. Of course you need to eat but you certainly don't need to eat enough to be obese.

I think many people tend to personalise this issue a lot, instead of hearing concerns about health and fitness they hear "omigod you have a few extras pounds you're disgusting", being a bit chubby or carrying a few extra pounds/kilos, isn't what's being discussed, it's being OBESE and that's something very different.

If you're a large person who's fitness and health is fine then clearly the discussion about healthcare costs ISN'T about you.

that's okay.

As far as the personalization of this issue goes, I have no problem with concerned, informed, rational discussions of obesity in America. But I think some folks here have gone far beyond concerns about health and fitness.They've made it very clear that they feel being overweight is a character flaw, and they shouldn't be forced to tolerate overweight people. They've made assumptions that I could be doing something about my weight but I'm just too lazy, or lack discipline, rather than stopping to consider that maybe I am doing everything I can to stay healthy but there are other factors that keep the weight on. They've made it clear that they believe the discussion of healthcare costs IS about me and everyone else they see who is obese (yes, I'm considered obese) because they don't stop to consider that I might be in excellent health and the supermodel standing next to me might be in terrible health. When people make intolerant, uniformed generalizations like that on a board that is supposed to be a safe haven for tolerant, informed people, I speak up.

but that's probably me splitting hairs. I agree that people tend to assume that bigger equals unhealthy which is stupid. I've always been slim (and was really unheathily skinny for a few years) but I've rarely been fit. I smoke like a chimney, drink too much and rarely get any exercise. You are most likely way fitter than I am.

For me the healthcare costs aren't such a huge issue (after all I'm a smoker) but I do get a bit annoyed at the myth that genetic and other health issues are a big factor in obesity. They're not, a tiny tiny minority of obese people can attribute their obesity to this sort of thing (many more syndromes etc can make you overweight but will only make you obese if you also get little exercise and consume high amounts of calories)

Again my smoking is a totally personal decision and I'm the only person who can do anything about it, I am not for one minute taking a self righteous view of this (maybe when I kick the fags and various other stimulants I'll have cause to but even then I don't think that sort of judgement is mine to make) but I do get a bit tired of the excuses. Very few people sympathise with smokers now, even though they have a physical addiction that is incredibly hard to kick, but people shouldn't sympathise with us because we STILL make a choice every morning to have another ciggie, over and above our addictions we make choices.

as a former alcoholic and addict and as someone who was overweight (and still is mildly).

Also, to assume that recovering addicts don't face their temptations is ridiculous. They may not ever need to drink to live, but they also see people using/abusing alcohol and drugs all around them, often every day, in real life and the media.

Multiple substance abuse here--addicted not only to food, but also to water and oxygen!

time to move on to the other pointless topics...

I'm so excited. He's so cute & sweet. Pictures will be forthcoming.

Sorry I just had to jump in there, but I really will be adopting a pit.

And I can assure you, I was a much happier man when I could easily bend over. I was happier when my feet wasn't sore from carrying around the extra weight. I physically felt a whole lot better about 20 lbs ago and was able to do so much more.

I admit I have been insensitive on this subject. I dont go around insulting fat people , but I have used the term fat as an insult . I need to work on that. I dont like hurting anyone.

Thanks for saying it.

Making fun of a fat woman walking down the street, minding her own business is disgusting, cruel and inexcusable.

But making fun of a pig like Limbaugh over his weight is all right with me, since he makes a living telling people that the only reason they can't do X is because they fail to do Y, and that's why everyone is not a perfect billionaire success. Everything is a character flaw or laziness, or whatever, so I think it's fair to throw it back in Limbaugh's fat face the HE lacks the willpower to get his ass off of hillbilly heroin, and HE was a morbidly obese hog before the drugs took the weight off of him, and he no doubt will be again, because he's too LAZY to ever sweat a drop on anything more strenuous than golf.


I have sympathy for normal people dealing with weight - not sanctimonious assholes who try to make others feel like failures.

ANd what's with Dr. Phil selling a diet book? He ain't exactly thin!

I am recovering from anorexia.
Why do I have to be bombarded with articles like "Losing weight increases energy." "Losing weight decreases (malady)." "Americans are too fat."?
They say that I have disordered thinking by being obsessed with my weight and body shape. Isn't everyone else obsessed too?
And why am I supposed to gain weight when the attractive stars are idealized? If they are alright, aren't I alright? If they gain 10 pounds, the gossip magazines will say how they blimped out. If I gain 10 pounds, will I have blimped out?
Back to recovery/intellectual thinking: I had a lot more energy and was stronger when I was nearly overweight. I was healthier. I was ok.

My friends all agree. She looks like she just got liberated from a death camp.

There are people who, when they were thin, felt rotten and had no energy. They gained weight and felt a lot better.

My main goal is not to fluctuate much. I hate shopping for clothes.

thin is unattractive.

I think it is not "fat" so much as it is whatever is the sign of leisure, of having money. That is why, when the food supply was often still questionable, it was a status symbol to weigh more, just because it meant you could afford to eat. In the Victorian Age, thin was connected in people's minds with poor and so it was not attractive. The old maid was often insulted as being a dessicated and "thin" old thing.

Then when food was in better supply to more people, it was the rich who had the leisure for exercise. Having a tan was cool for awhile, until people understood that might be dangerous. But being thin then meant you had the leisure for exercise, so being "fat" became the lot of the old maids, etc.

It is amazing how much affect this search for status or even to fit in with society's expectations actually physically affects us, in a broad way. Why did women get thinner as they aged when it was unattractive, but put on weight as they age when that is unattractive? It just shows how much of life is all in our heads.

Geez, as someone who is Callista's size, I appreciate your insight. I was really pleased to see that no one on this board was insensitive enough to start bashing skinny people in order to veer away from the topic of obesity. But then, there you were. A real class act.

to the fat taunts people are discussing here. I was skinnier than Calista for a while for reasons I wont go into, in short they were nothing to do with an eating disorder, I fucking HATED being that thin, partly because I kept hearing people say how hideous and disgusting women with bodies like mine were.

If I said "XYZ is hideous, she looks like she was birthed by a whale" do you think I'd be flamed from here to eternity, why do you think it's OK to pass negative judgement on the size of some people's bodies but not others?

It's perfectly acceptible to say "I don't find Calista Flockhart attractive in the least" because it's an opinion. To declare that she IS hideous is going too far IMHO.

I suspect it may be a little backlash to all the self-righteousness many thin people seem to exhibit even on this board, as if being thin makes them a better, more virtuous person. It still doesn't make ridicule based only on appearance right no matter who is saying it or what they are saying.

"to all the self-righteousness many thin people seem to exhibit even on this board, as if being thin makes them a better, more virtuous person"

I doubt very much that impression comes from anywhere other than your imagination, based on YOUR prejudices about thin people.

Personally if someone thinks Callista is hideous that's fine, but it's also fine to find fat people hideous, as you say it's all opinion. Personally I don't find very skinny or very fat people attractive and I really don't care whether or not it's PC to say that. I don't think that means I have to go around saying "eeuww what a fattie" OR "eeeuuww what an anorexic" but I can and do have a personal preference.

I just find it funny that in every thread on this topic and every single real life discussion I've had, someone, after banging on endlessly about how mean people are to fat people, will pipe up with "no man likes a skinny girl/she looks anorexic and disgusting/skeletor/I've seen better nourished concentration camp victims".

And EVERY single time the larger women have a good cackle, I have pointed out people's innapropriate comments directed at larger people but guess what no-one has EVER come to my defense when the "scrawny" and "unfeminine" comments were hurled at me

And, no, I don't have a problem with thin people, my two best friends are thin as can be. I have a problem with self-righteous thin people who want to judge me without knowing me. I've been reading posts all day where thin people think they have all the answers to other people's weight problems. That's self-righteousness as far as I'm concerned and it's right here in this thread. I'd be happy to direct you to the posts.

I am really sorry that some people have called you those names and had a good cackle at your expense. I know how it feels and it sucks. But I've never called you those names, nor would I have tolerated it if I read a post where anyone had. In fact, I did actually just try to agree with you and call out the person who made the remark about Calista Flockhart. But apparently I didn't agree with you the right way. I'm sorry about that.

"I don't think that means I have to go around saying "eeuww what a fattie" OR "eeeuuww what an anorexic" but I can and do have a personal preference." That was my point exactly. One's opinion on what they find attractive is totally different than hurling insults at strangers. We're agreeing here. :hi:

Malnourished is not what people should encourage others to aspire to. Malnourished is not an ideal. It's not healthy, deliberately starving yourself until it becomes an eating disorder. It screws up your body in several ways.

By the way, I used to look like that as a 30 pound underweight 10 year old. If I'm calling anyone ugly, it's me as a child. Calista Flockhart is a name everyone knows. I'm just Nobody.

It wasn't that I was trying to look like anything in particular, I was a severely picky eater and could watch people eat entire meals without any of it appealing to me. I'm sure I mucked up my metabolism for life, and I'm now on the opposite end of the spectrum, but not as extreme. As an adult I discovered that I like eating.

You're right, though, I posted that and I didn't think it through. I take back the "hideous" label and replace it with "unhealthy-looking".

But note that just because there is a such thing as *too thin* that's a FAR cry from anything remotely like fat is good. Such a notion is suggested by "they gained weight and felt a lot better". After all, people shoot up with heroin and feel "a lot better" as well.

She's still a skinny girl, but not emaciated. And she does say now that she was under a lot of stress during that time and that it did affect her eating habits.

And I take back the "hideous" label.

Sorry to offend.

is there too, and I know how hard it is. Even though I don't suffer from this issue, I did have a lot of self-image problems for many years. You know what helped? I know it sounds simplistic, but it really worked: stop looking at magazines, stop watching mainstream tv. When these fake images leave our daily life, they stop having influence over our minds. Best wishes.

I am sexually attracted to an increasing variety of girls/women up to say 'moderately' overweight; and the sex life of my girlfriend and I has always improved as our honesty and openness develops.

However she and I both have a problem with her weight besides minor and potential health problems. Every few weeks or so I go through a phase where I mildly despair that she doesn't have a great bottom, legs and waist.

I suffer bouts of poignant, piercing, burning jealousy of fit girls and the things they wear (yeah I know, why don't I just wear them then:))

I sympathise with overweight people, especially (obviously) those who have health problems; and those who've lost a loved one for weight-related reasons.

I believe that I am self-actualised enough to have got over the cultural 'barbie' conditioning and pubescent imprints. I used to have contempt for fat people but I got over that years ago.

This study says men are on average attracted to womem with a waist-hip ratio of 0.7 and speculates on why:

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060213_attraction_rules.html

No conclusion here. I just wanted to express that.

...and other cookies - made with BUTTER.

But the trick is this, they are homemade - no chemicals, and no hydrogenated death glop in them. I originally ate a diet very heavy on veggies with an occasional cookie or homemade slice of cake, with a total daily calorie intake of 1500 calories, and I lost 75 lbs.

My sympathies to those who are dealing with hypothyroidism. That must be awful. I had no such excuse. My problem was eating slightly too much on a daily basis, plus occasional binges on store-bought cookies or nachos.

Now I allow myself between 1500 and 2000 calories, and even have the treats, but I limit those things to the specified serving amount - just one cookie, instead of half a package of store-bought. And since it is homemade, rich and real, it's MORE satisfying than a bag of fake-ass Chips Ahoy could ever be.

Losing weight is never easy, but it shouldn't be about punishing yourself.

Most people aren't afraid of fat people, so it's not really a phobia. Fat people have been targeted as culturally-acceptable scapegoats and targets of hatred. It's not the same thing at all.

That's why the hate us.

I wasn't sure. They hate us because we act like fucking bullies trying to tell everyone else what to do and how to live. They don't hate us because we're fat. They may use the fat/lazy/spoiled line to ridicule Americans. But if America was helping the world instead of destroying it I really don't think the world would care about our size.

If that was a joke, sorry. :)

the world does not like you. For instance, here you did not realise that only Americans see fat in such a bad individual light; in fact, the statistics are just interpreted as "Americans eat lots of food" (an implication of having too much available, not one of bad internal character)

I've found that being fat is an useful litmus test for weeding out assholes in sheep's clothing. I think it's because these days many assholes (not all of course) have learned to bite their tongues about gays/minorities/the disabled in mixed company. Sure, they still think their ignorant thoughts and they still say shit when they're among like-minded folks, but they "behave" themselves otherwise. However, since it's still acceptable to ridicule and judge fat people, that is where their asshattery shines through.

I'll give you some examples (out of many, many experiences with it):

#1. My friend is sweet, intelligent, kind-hearted, and really funny. And not to toot my own horn but I think I am also all of those things. In fact, people who know both of us often remark how alike we are. Even her new boyfriend was amazed when I visited them for a few days (she lives in a different state) at how similar our personalities were. The biggest difference? Our size. My friend is thin and I am fat.

Well, for years (when we still lived in the same place) I often noticed that she didn't seem to be the best judge of character. She would meet people at work or wherever and tell me how great they were, how nice and funny and cool they were. Then I'd meet them. Some of them really were nice and cool. But some people immediately gave me a very bad vibe. I could just sense something negative about them. My friend would introduce us and the person would look right through me, or not make eye contact, or just ignore me beyond a very forced "How's it going?" and continue to focus on my friend. I would remain cordial and friendly for my friend's sake, of course. It's not like I demanded that all of her friends also be my friends. But I could tell that they had immediately made some judgment of me based on my appearance just by their expression.

Anyway, down the road and truly without exception, that person would turn out to be a user, or a liar, or really self-centered, or not who they said they were, or just a plain old jerk.

It happened with men and women both but it happened more often with men. Even when my friend was married, some guys would act like uber-sensitive "friends" (not at all interested in sex, of course) but they were really trying to get into her pants. I could pick those guys out so fast because they wouldn't even give me the time of day. I truly do not understand when a guy can't be at least polite to a woman he doesn't find attractive. That is mind-boggling to me. I am kind and friendly to all kinds of people, lack of sexual attraction does not preclude me from treating others with respect. It was almost as if some of those guys were afraid I would molest them if they dared to look me in the eye or speak to me.


#2. My friend and I had a running joke about this one guy who had an art studio in the same building as ours. He immediately took a shine to my friend and would stop her in the hall to chat all the time. Eventually, he would realize that I was also standing there and he would introduce himself in a very perfunctory way, even though I had already met him a million times. At first I would say "Yes, hi _____, we've met. Nice to see you again" but after awhile we just started messing with him. As soon as he walked up my friend would say "Oh hi, _____. Have you met my friend Grace?" and EVERY TIME he would quickly mumble "Nice to meet you" or something without ever ONCE remembering that he had indeed met me many, many times. I was utterly invisible to him. I was so tempted to say "You know _____, I don't bite and I'm not desperate. I'm not going to fall in love with you for being nice to me. And by the way, don't flatter yourself, hon. I don't find you attractive either. But I fail to see why that means we cannot be friendly or at least civil to one another."


#3. I used to work in a graphic design agency. One time were were doing a special project and I had to call a bunch of different vendors for quotes. It was a complicated project so once we narrowed things down a bit I was in communication with two different vendors several times a day for about a week. The two vendors, both male, were very friendly and funny. I had excellent rapport with both of them, but all very professional. I wasn't flirting or making suggestive remarks to them or anything. In fact, the project we were doing was for my husband's company so I know I mentioned I was married.

I scheduled appointments with both of them to visit our office with proposals. When the first vendor arrived, I happened to be sitting at the reception desk looking for something so he probably thought I was the receptionist. He walked up and said "I have an appointment with Grace" and I replied "You must be ______, I'm Grace. It's nice to meet you in person." Well you should have seen his face drop. He couldn't even disguise it. We walked into the conference room and he gave his proposal in the flattest, driest tone imaginable. I could just tell that in his head he had pictured me looking very different, and was bitterly disappointed when he turned out to be wrong. It was bizarre to me. I would never judge someone professionally based on their attractiveness. I will say that he was no hottie, but that never even remotely entered my mind when I was speaking to him on the phone. I just thought he seemed nice and easy-going, which is something I want when working with a vendor.

As it turns out, the second vendor came into my office and was exactly the same as he seemed on phone. Guess who got my business? Plus, I ended up hearing from someone who had hired the other vendor that he sucked and totally screwed up their job.

Especially your examples. I can relate to that but in a different way. I guess I should say Black Phobia.:) And at least your friend acknowledge how these people behave, there are some that think nothing of it and say like, "oh you're just imagining these things".

Thanks for the well informed post! :hi:

I know this *still* happens with race, sexual orientation, disabilities, etc. I do not mean to diminish Black Phobia (LOL, good one) or any other asshattery. My personal experience just happens to do with weight. :hi:

Honestly, I am so grateful for not being "perfect" or whatever you want to call it. Because I know for sure that the people who are my friends are *truly* my friends. They're not secretly hoping I'll dump my husband and sleep with them, or using me to get dates (unless it's to be the "thin one" LOL), or using me for my money (that would be really misguided), or any number of reasons. They like me for who I am. Because I make them laugh, and I'm there for them, and sometimes I make them homemade jam. ;)

I know you were giving your personal experience. I just think it was dead on and reminded me about the other phobia. And I'm glad you mentioned disabilities. On one of my recent train rides, I noticed a guy that was in a wheel chair. No big deal. When my stop came, I got off the train and was walking to my job....the guy in the wheel chair was along side of me and asked me if I wanted a ride across the street. It shocked me, then I started to laugh at myself. I thought, of course disabled people can flirt too! :)

So did you take that guy up on his offer of a ride? That's awesome! Good for him for being a flirt.

I used to be significantly underweight, and then due to a combination of medication side effects and eating the wrong things (not too many calories, but too many processed foods) I gained a lot of weight. So I have seen things from both sides.

My weight now seems to have settled, somewhere about 20 pounds above my so-called "ideal weight." One of my friends from before I gained the weight barely talks to me anymore, and on the occasions that we have had conversations, she made several insulting comments about fat people. She even made comments about her CAT being fat! I wondered if she had always been so fat-phobic before, and I just didn't notice it when I was underweight. Nonetheless, that's one friendship I felt okay about ending. I don't need "friends" like that. Other people have treated me as invisible. I don't think I'm even all that fat, but apparently my weight is enough to weed some people out.

In increased medical expenses. It's a public health crisis. Get your head out of the sand. It's unhealthy to be overweight.

I bet lots of thin people would love to have my cholesterol levels and glucose tolerance. My 200 pound 6'7" husband has higher blood pressure than I do, but it's still in the normal range.

Ironically, better health care and people living longer has as much to do with the health care crisis in our country as anything else.

What came first....obestity epidemic or health care crisis.

Not all the blame lies with the obese. Our culture teaches us that eating junk food is the the american birthright. Food manufacturers sell us Frankford's like high-fructose corn syrup.

But I really get annoyed with this fat-acceptance movement that seems so apt to equate being fat to being black or gay or whatnot. You can lose weight. It's hard. You need to get support, guidance, encouragement, etc....but it can be done.

Some people who would be the genetic kings in the world of old are the "fatties" now. They eat the same way thin people do and never lose weight. Why should their lives be horrible because they get lumped into the "They could but they are just lazy" category?

Some of these arguments remind me of the "You wouldn't be poor if you would only work a little harder--poor people are a drain on society".

They could if they would choose that. It's just that they feel like they should be able to eat the same amount as someone with high metabolism and get away with it. So they look to science to find them a magic bullet to "cure" this condition.

Being obese basically comes down to self discipline. It's very hard to learn self-discipline, this i know from experience. Our medical system makes it worse by trying to offer a pancea other then helping people develop self discipline.

has ever tried eating less, much less thought of it. We must all be too busy stuffing our faces to think clearly. It's NEVER due to chronic medical conditions or genetic makeup or other factors beyond one's control, no matter how little they eat or how much they exercise. It's really just as simple as this: fat=undisciplined/lazy/gluttonous. Thanks for clearing that up.

That you have a number of calories you need to maintain your current weight.

If you eat more then that you gain weight.

If you eat less weight you gain weight.

It takes self discipline to maintain a proper diet.

Self discipline is the variable that a person can control to lose weight. You can't change your genetics.

Thousands of people have proven that you can lose weight and keep it off.

I know plenty of people with loads of self discpline that are overweight. I know plenty of people who eat nothing but junk food and never exercise who are thin.

Thousands of people have proven what works *for them*, not for everyone. And until you can personally diagnose the reason for an individual's obesity, you cannot judge what will absolutely work for them. You can say it any way you like, but it will never stop being ignorant to make assumptions on someone's self-discipline or lack thereof without knowing them and their medical history.

I'm sorry but you have fat people who are bitching that they should be protected under civil rights law.

Well that's bullshit because nobody is born fat.

You have to over eat your way into it. It doesn't happen over night. It takes years. People ignore that they are gaining weight or make half hearted attempts to deal with it.

Trying to make "fat acceptance" into a civil rights issue makes a mockery of civil rights.

Fat people shouldn't accept that they are fat. They should empower themselves to change it. By educating themselves about diet. By forming positive habits. By creating a support structure for themselves, etc.

They shouldn't ask all of society to tolerate them, especially when obestity-related illnesses burdens our limited healthcare resources.

would ever expect or even hope to be tolerated by other, better humans. Lord knows the only people who matter are those who are perfect and beautiful. Because lord knows beautiful people never burden our limited healthcare resources or ask for assistance of any kind. Besides, even if they ask for assistance, it wouldn't be a burden. It would be a pleasure to help them because they are beautiful and perfect.

What, you want some kind of witch hunt?

Sheesh, have a little bit of compassion. Not everybody is as perfect as you think you are.

Things are seldom as simple as they seem.

People shouldn't lose their job for being overweight. However, it's perfectly reasonable for police and fire departments to require their people be in shape. There are exceptions.

And it is true that you cannot become overweight without eating. However, metabolic differences do exist, and some people can gain weight on a remarkably small amount of food. Most notably hypothyroid.

That being said, there is a lot of excuse-making going on, too. A lot of processed foods don't fill you up, so people THINK they are not eating so much, when they are actually eating a great deal. F

or an average size man in America, 2000 calories is an appropriate intake, but it would be very easy to eat 3000 and not feel like you are pigging out. And if your daily calorie use is 2000 and you eat 2100 a day (one extra slice of bread), you will gain 1 lb. EVERY MONTH! It doesn't take a lot of excess intake to cause gradual weight gain. I don't think people bad or lazy if they're not attuned to sensing that they didn't need that last 100 calories. I have to weigh myself EVERY DAY and count the calories in EVERYTHING I EAT in order to maintain my weight, because I honestly can say that if I didn't, I would have no idea of when to stop. I find myself undereating somedays, and wanting to massively overeat on others. I have to make an effort to keep that daily intake within the range I've set (1500~2000). Because I've almost reached my weight goals, the last thing I want to do is discourage others by putting them down. I would hope to encourage them by saying "I did it. Here's what I did, maybe it will work for you. Or maybe something else." But dammit, I went 6 years where I paid no attention to my weight or what I was eating. I had a lot of other crap going on with family and work and moving and quitting smoking, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be made to feel bad because I didn't watch my weight as well as I should have. Hell, I liked eating all I wanted. If I hadn't started having food pain and acid reflux, I might not have made the determination to change it.

But then again, half of the people in the world get by on about 1500~1800 calories per day and they are perfectly fine. The average American takes in 3000 calories per day! I've had people tell me they don't like being on a "starvation diet", and they consider 2000 calories to be "starvation". The human body can function quite well on 1200 calories (women) to 1500 calories (men) per day, provided you eat balanced meals.

I agree that "fat acceptance" is a bad idea. I don't want to accept a lot of body fat, and I disagree with NAAFA's position that people shouldn't diet. But I do think we need "fat people acceptance", and less of the judgmental attitudes you exhibit. As for diets, no to crash diets, but yet to a lifestyle change that you can stick to. We are ALL on diets. They may be fattening diets, or slimming diets, or lo-carb, or whatever, but if you eat, you have a DIET.

Last, this stuff about healthcare resources - there are any number of health risk factors that burden our health care system. I'd rather not have a totalitarian health system to enforce healthy lifestyle choices. I'd rather have comprehensive universal care, like every other western democracy has. Maybe then, a lot more fat people could get the advice and assistance they need for managing their weight. How many people overeat to cope with stress? How much stress is caused by the fact that 40% of us are uninsured?

I agree that NAAFA's position goes too far IMHO. I don't think people should stop trying to get and stay healthy. But the demonization of fat people and the over-simplication of a huge and complex issue (just eat less and get some self-discipline, stupid) is really beyond comprehension to me.

Sorry, too late to edit when I noticed.

I maintain a proper diet and exercise 3-4 times a week. I'm 20 pounds overweight. Is that a health crisis? I have worked hard to lose weight - I'm almost 30 pounds below my highest weight now. But my weight is not budging from where it is, despite my maintenance of the healthy diet and the exercise routine. Am I lacking self discipline because I'm 20 pounds overweight? Some people have called me fat - at 5'1" being 20 pounds overweight is very noticeable. But in many of those cases, I knew that the people calling me fat may have been within the acceptable weight range, but had a significantly worse diet than I do and didn't exercise.

At what point do you say that people are at the weight they're supposed to be? Or is everyone supposed to fit within some formula for their "ideal weight" and if they don't, they need to try harder?

If not, you may want to try it. Weights are much better are causing weight-loss than simply doing cardio because it builds muscle. Muscle tissue also burns more calories than other tissue. So you get the calorie burning from the workout plus the added boost of the muscle itself burning extra calories.

I'm lucky in that I'm naturally muscular. When I do exercise, I put on muscle very fast. I realize not everyone does this. Even at 5'1" people often guess my weight 10lbs low. My body naturally leans towards muscle, but with weights, anyone can put it on.

I bulk up extremely quickly when I use weights. I made that mistake many years ago - I joined a gym and found that I really loved weight lifting. I loved using the weight machines and got to a point where I enjoyed increasing the amount I would lift. Unfortunately I started looking very unfeminine pretty quickly.

You are right that weights are good to use, though, and many women especially don't think to do so!

you can injure yourself. I took a course designed just for seniors and I was lifting 3 times a week on all my gym's machines, 12 reps and 2 sets each, and after a few months I developed tendonitis in my shoulder (impingement) and elbow (golf elbow). I had to stop lifting with my arms (I still do leg and ab 3 X a week). I've had 2 regimens of physical therapy @ 6 sessions each. I tried therabands at home. I am only a little better and it's been 8 months.

I'm disgusted and I am gaining some weight back. So I am starting cardio classes to make up the difference.

P.S. I had two physical therapists tell me NO ONE should use the shoulder press machine or lift free weights over their heads. They say that's what caused my problem.

My left shoulder is all fucked up from dislocating it.

95% of dieters eventually put all the weight back on - and more. Keeping it off is EXTREMELY rare. So much so that those who DO keep it off are often studied extensively by weight loss doctors.

http://www.bodyfatguide.com/regainweight.html

Let me guess - you've never had a weight problem, have you? You talk like someone who has all the answers without ever having experienced the problem.

I cannot STAND people who have never suffered from a particular problem but think they have all the answers. Walking a mile in someone else's shoes is more than a phrase.

same thing, it doesn't mean his or her solution will work for everyone.

You mean when I succeed in making my skin a lot lighter by spending less time outside in the sun, that won't work for black people? Wow, the new things you learn every day here!

is an example of the ones you view as self righteous, I'd say it was more dissmisive. However it's not self righteous to say that for the overwhelming majority of people with obesity a change in diet and some exercise will reduce their size. It's SIMPLE but not EASY. Just like it is SIMPLE to give up smoking, you just have to stop lighting up, it is not EASY however and I really don't think the poster you're responding to said it was.

Some people have syndromes etc that mean it's harder to lose weight or easier to put it on and there are some people without any syndrome or health issues that simply put on weight faster, unfortunately that's just life but that's NOT the same as obesity, there are a microscopic number of people for whom obesity truly is something they have little control of.

It's really just as simple as this: fat=undisciplined/lazy/gluttonous

this is where I think you're overly sensitive, that isn't what the poster said

I just don't see it the way you do. But I appreciate that you stated your opinion without the smug self-righteousness (yep, I still think it was) of the poster to which I was responding.

--and get away with it, just as gay people should be able to form relationships with people of their own sex and get away with it.

Self-discipline is just bullshit. Why should gay people be required to have the "self-discipline" to ignore their true desires and marry the opposite sex in order to have basic human dignity? Why should people inclined toward weight gain have to have the "self-discipline" to make attaining average weight their life's obsession in order to have basic human dignity?

Good health recommendations work the same for fat people as for anybody else. Real food instead of junk food and regular exercise. That will have no effect whatsoever on the incidence of obesity (300 lbs - 50 lbs = 250 lbs = STILL FAT), but it will make fat people and everybody else a lot healthier.

That's interesting.

Nobody chooses to be gay.

People choose to eat a second donut. People choose to drive to work rather then ride a bike. People choose to drink soda instead of water.

By in large the problem fat people have is the same problem smokers have. They have been taught that they cannot change thier lifes and kick thier habits on thier own. It's learned helplessness and a lack of self discipline.

The only effects that being more active and eating less junk food will have on a fat person is to make them weigh less. The fact that they are obese does not change in the slightest.

300 lbs - 30 lbs = 270 lbs = STILL FAT

You have the choice to take up healthier habits, but you have exactly zero choice about what effects those changes will have on your weight.

My skin is always a lot lighter if I spend more time indoors in the summer. Funny thing, though--that strategy doesn't work at all for black people. Must be because they have no discipline.

Works for me. The less time I spend in the sun, the lighter my skin is. They must be doing something wrong.

Nobody would be poor if they all worked 20 hours a day, even at a minimum wage job!

Are you talking about pre-civilization times? I would think they'd be at a disadvantage because they tend to be slower.

They'd be the ones of normal or slightly higher weight who could have normal babies under those conditions. It would have been like being heterozygous for the sickle cell trait in a malaria belt.

People who would be considered fat today were at an advantage because they had the reserves to help them survive famine, long voyages, wars, cold winters, illness, pregnancies, etc. These were survival issues for much of the world until relatively recently.

metabolize food more effectively. If we were both gatherers, and I only had to gather 1/2 as much food as you did to get my body to function, I'd have a better chance of survival.

That sounds to me a bit like the "gays can be straight if they want to be" argument.

My friend eats 1200-1700 calories a day and works out 5-6 days a week. She's been to a million doctors and put herself into all kinds of debt getting "support, guidance, encouragement, etc" but they can't figure out what is causing her weight problems.

I don't agree with everything the fat-acceptance movement says, but I think most people just wanted to be treated with the same respect and humanity as any other person. To me that's the crux of the argument. It's just not okay to judge anyone if you haven't walked in their shoes.