Illegal immigration fix: fine those who hire them $50,000

Why the waste resources at putting troops at the boarder? Why not fine those who hire illegal immigrates $50,000 per violation?

paid out of that $50K. The competition won't have anything to bitch about going out of business by being undercut.

of dollars of fines for hiring landscapers over the years. They come to the door and ask if I need anyone and when I don't have one I' happy with I change and I've probably used 6-8 different guys the last 20 years and I haven't checked the green cards of any of them but I suspect that more than half of them were illegals.

I really didn't worry about it. They seemed nice enough, came when they said they would, and did a good job. Then sometimes they'd just disappear and not answer their phone.

So what am I supposed to do? Background checks if anyone speaks Spanish as a first language? or just not ever hire anyone who looks Hispanic?

$40,000. At least enough money to make a company feel it.

No. of companies fined for hiring illegal aliens
2001 - 141 companies
2002 - 73 companies
2003 - 15 companies
As of May 2004 - 1 company

No. of employer investigations in U.S.:
1992 - 7,053
2002 - 2,061

No. of arrests on job sites in U.S.:
1992 - 8,027
2002 - 451

No. of U.S. employers fined
1992 - 1,063
2002 - 13

See the pattern?

I would like to use them in an argument on another board and need to back it up.

Excellent points. A tough law won't do any good at all if it isn't enforced. And the Bush dictatorship has no desire to enforce laws to deprive Corporate America of its cheap labor, or the exorbitant profits it makes from that labor.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

Economic Patriots' Forum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

Seriously, I say fine them 1 million dollars at least, and that is per violation. Also, if they are a repeat offender, revoke their license to do business and seize all assets, seems pretty simple. 50 grand is a drop in the bucket compared to some of the savings these people get, we should PUNISH them, not coddle them.

I advocate for :

$50K PER undocumented worker
CONFISCATION if their factory/company/business/restaurant/whatever
AND the owner/manager's personal property as well..cars, homes, bank accountts..the whole enchilada

they do it to drug dealers when they are caught

and a mandatory jail sentence for managers/owners who hire undocumented workers

say 6 months per worker on first offense..1 year on next,,and 3rd strike??..5 years..

When Josh & Mindy do hard time for hiring undocumented slave labor to roof & frame their spec houses, they might start looking for legal workers

let them keep their cheap labor as long as they're willing to pay this money, which will go into social security and unemployment protection. Businesses get all these tax breaks, so they should be able to afford it.

themselves. The flip side of higher wages is increased costs. This is as simple as supply and demand. When costs rise, people will decide not to buy.

The price rises little when hiring Americans for a higher wage. In contrast, Corporate and business profits shrink some. Given that profits are at record levels at present, there's plenty of room for them to absorb the additional cost.

Poor Josh and Mindy.
Maybe they'll have to get off their lazy, under-worked, overindulged, rich fannies and do their own yard work. What a tragedy that would be.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

Economic Patriots' Forum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

Employers who hire cash-only cheap labor also don't pay local/city/state/federal taxes for that labor. They don't pay SS taxes or unemployment benefits to anyone. This is unfair competition at best.

How hard is it to analyze a tax return to find cheap labor? About as hard as butter.

the only thing that will change the scenario (hundreds of people dying in the desert) is to kill the scenario of a job at this end of the tunnel. Interviews with the border patrol said there is absolutely nothing which can be done about the border itself, save stop the incentives. They arrest the same groups of people 4 or 5 times a day, then the next day they get through.
The fine money could be used for something to help all workers, who now have no health care, no support structure of any kind.

for those who 'knowingly' hire illegal immigrants. And that little word, 'knowingly', is the problem. There are a bunch of laws that rest on 'knowing' that something is wrong or rest on intent.

Currently non-discrimination rules make it hard to select out those you'd suspect of being illegal immigrants for special documentation requirements; this is mostly a problem at large companies, where the SSA is also more likely to tell the employer that SSNs and employees' names don't match up. What the company does about the mismatch is up to the employer; but if you doubt that the young-looking, short, Oaxacan-looking Spanish-speaking man in front of you isn't really Jonathan Witherspoon, born in Frostburg, Maryland, in 1961 as his documents say, *and* you can't prove they're fraudulent you can't request any other document unless you request the same additional documents from all your employees. The other option: don't question the documents, you're not required to after all. Small employers, however, don't always get notified about mismatches, and 'discrimination' is harder to show exists (or doesn't exist, depending where the default assumption is in the law/case law). And the list of documents that you *have* to accept, if they're presented, is stupid: there are a few easy ways I could satisfy the requirements *without* getting forged documents. Cheaper, too, just not quite as fast. It would take a few weeks.

I sort of liked (and also sort of feared) one aspect of the Senate measure that, IIRC, passed recently. It won't ever be enacted; part of me is glad it won't ever be enacted, but part isn't. It would establish a national employee database, and require employers to check eligibility.

Poppy Bush was the last one to do THAT. Clinton didn't take it very seriously and Stupid has abandoned any enforcement, entirely.

We have that law. We just have an outlaw administration that refuses to enforce it, along with a whole slew of other laws that protect Americans from corporate predators.

We also need to raise the minimum wage to a livable level, make those illegals harder to oppress. Remember, that $5.15/hour looks great to a guy who's earning two bucks a day in pesos. He doesn't realize he's being screwed until he gets here and sees what our prices are like.

We also need to make it easier for these guys to go home to Mexico. Tightening the border means they don't come here for a few months to a few years and go home, with visits to the wife an kids a couple times a year until they've saved some money. It means they bring the wife and kids along because they know if they leave, they're gone for good. Once in, they're trapped here.

Illegal immigration is now a colossal mess, fueled by twelve years of neglecting to enforce laws against the source of the problem: exploitative employers. Plus, misapplied border security has made it all worse.

Nobody in either party seems to want to do the two things to stop the problem from getting worse: raise wages and enforce the law against scumbag employers.

and it didn't cost a dime (OK it cost a little, but way less than any other proposal). But of course the politiwhores would never propose an actual solution, too many of their campaign contributors make way too much $$ on the new triangle trade.

to improve conditions for workers there. As a condition of "free trade" we should insist that Mexico improve wages and working conditions. Of course that is the last thing american companies looking to move factories there want, but there is a reason that Canadians aren't streaming over the border to get minimum wage jobs in America.

too bad it's so obvious.

......by fining each corporation or company (regardless of size) $50,000 each day for every illegal alien hired. I further suggested fining the company/corporation in question at least one year of federal, state, local taxes that would have been paid by a US citizen. Of course some here at DU claimed that might put some businesses (mom-and-pop) out of business :shrug: and called me racist. My come back to that was, "So it's racist to actually do something about illegal aliens instead of just spewing forth a lot of hot air?" I think I got put on ignore for that one because there was never a reply.:rofl:

the problem would be solved. I'm referring to the Fed. I-9.

Welcome to the great DU abyss...LOL. I've posted several times on where the real answer to this sham issue...dressed up as "illegals" but actually being another use of the race card (against Hispanics and Mexicans in specific).

As long as there are jobs here that pay more in one hour than what they can earn in Mexico in a day, the lure for those to sneak across the border remains strong. Put up fences and flood the Sonoran desert with troops and they'll still find a way. This also doesn't address the thousands of other "illegals" from China, Eastern Europe and Africa that enter through Canada and just walk in with visas and overstay their welcome. Again...this is targeted at one group...Mexicans.

Yes...let's go after the corporations that hire the illegals. Charge 'em $50k a day per worker...and/or pass legislation that not only requires American corporations that do business in Mexico to pay wages there comparable to what they would pay here. Given the option of staying in their home towns and able to earn a decent living, you'd see this problem vanish overnight. Chances of that...zero to nil cause the corporations need that cheap labor to maximize profits and that's all that counts...and why boooosh is pushing for the "guest worker" crap...which is nothing more than indentured servitude.

I feel the same way you do around here...many times I reply to posts or put up my own and it falls off the page real fast. Seems we're not "with the in crowd" here.

Cheers...

I run a nursing and rehab facility. I would not be surprised to find that I have a dozen or so long term employees who have been with us for longer than I have who are illegal aliens. Should I then take all of those people and fire them?

Fining the employers - those wicked fat cat capitalists - is just as reactionary and short sighted as saying put troops on the border.

How about working on fair wages? fine employers who hire people (usually illegals) and pay them less than minimum wage? there would be no incentive to hire illegals if paying less than a minimum was enforced.

.....it puts the responsibility right where it belongs, with the employer doing the hiring.:sarcasm:

If there are 5 employees applying for each job wages and benefits will be average, or above average in order to attract those five employees. On the other hand, if there are 50 employees applying for each job wages can drop, benefits can be meager or non-existent and someone will still take the job. So, the moral of the story is if we want decent wages and better benefits we need to weed the illegal aliens out of our work force. End of story. There is only one group of people who don't or won't accept the wisdom in that concept.

it isnt a case of me paying lower wages since there is a huge pool of nurses available to take the jobs thanks to illegals. I pay higher wages and still have no applicants. I have to go to the phillipines to get even one applicant usually. We don't hire illegals. I do sponsorship and all the other long and expensive processes that go with it. Fining the employers is a knee jerk response. How about having a real system to bring qualified workers in who want to be here (not the bush indentured servant program). The current system is a mess (I still have my own letter from INS saying they will process my request for citizenship in 750-999 business days). And what about the employees who have worked illegally for decades? The threat of fining employers led to one hospital down the street from me firing 30 people who had all worked there for years because their ss#'s had mismatches.

Fining the employers will only lead to a lot of hard working people being fired in short order. Not to mention where should those employers find replacement workers? I can raise my wages to $1000 an hour and it wouldnt make the nurses magically appear when there are none. Not to mention the fact that healthcare money largely comes from medicare and medicaid - medicaid currently pays me 131 per patient per day - my average costs are 138 per patient per day. Where should I get that extra money to pay higher wages for non existant applicants - this is not the simple supply and demand equation that you seem to think.

The bottom line is yes in some industries you are right - employers exploit an illegal workforce and this drives down wages for everyone. In highly regulated industries like mine fining employers will only hurt hard working people doing a job that there are no other applicants for and it will hurt patient care unless the US immigration and Healthcare system issues are addressed. To fine employers and expect that good old market forces will straighten out the resulting mess is short sighted and ill conceived.

.....set up a program where the government would pay you or give you tax breaks to train US citizens or naturalized citizens for the medical field. Please don't tell me it wouldn't work, I've actually seen it in practice and yes it worked beautifully.

If an employer would have the choice of facing hefty fines for bringing in or hiring foreign workers versus being paid to train and hire American workers which would you choose??

For every issue an employer of illegal aliens has for their practices there is a solution for that will benefit American workers.

Training an RN takes 4 years and an accredited school. I am a small 160 patient hospital not an accredited school.

I note you didnt actually answer any of my questions.

what would YOU do with the dozen people who are probably illegal and have worked decades in your company. fire them today? replace them with who?

....for anyone who doesn't want to hire only illegal aliens. Even small hospitals can get help training subsidizing nurses/doctors because I've actually seen it done. As for who to hire - why not American born or nationalized citizens that want to be nurses? Get corporate financing or doctors to subsidize the nurses training with the agreement that for five years the nurses work at the hospital and their schooling is completely paid for. If they quit within that five years the student foots the total bill for the schooling. Please don't tell me it can't be done I saw it done in over 93 cases over an eleven year period. Now, what else?? :banghead:

Which govt agency funds this?
What would you do with the illegals who have worked here for decades?
If you are firing them where would you get immediate replacements (american citizens - really from where since i cant get any applicants now) to ensure patient care continues?
Would you not prefer a functional healthcare and immigration system as opposed to knee jerk reactions?
If raising wages is your answer - where would I get this extra money when medicaid already pays less than my costs?

93 cases - show me.
as for your agreement to work five years after training idea - illegal in CA - its called indentured servitude and I go to jail if I enforce it.
What is your background that you have so much knowledge of the industry I am a CEO in? If you really have solutions not soundbites I would love to hear them.

$40,000 fine
$50,000 fine
$50,000 fine per day per worker
$1,000,000 fine
One year in jail
Three years in jail
Five years in jail
Seizure of property

That's the best you can do? C'mon, let's quit screwing around and just execute 'em! If we just hung a few Josh & Mindys, the rest of those corpo-whore homeowners would get the message.

Seriously, the solution is to give these workers rights so they can protect their interests. A path to citizenship for those here awhile, legal work permits for the rest. Then organize 'em.

The most enlightening post I've seen here is the one with the USA Today article breaking down positions on immigration. It found about 25% were really pissed off, about 25% could give a shit, about 25% were ambivalent, and about 25% said bring 'em on. I think I'll leave you 25%ers to your fulminations. Have a nice day.

Here's the latest Lou Dobbs poll, taken today, comparing responses on different issues. A combined total of 54% chose either illegal immigration or border security as their most important issue.



The link to the latter poll is at:
http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/25423.content.html


Looks to me like a lot of people consider illegal immigration a very important issue. And a majority of Democrats want illegal immigration reduced or eliminated.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

Economic Patriots' Forum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

Yet they allow businesses to go on and exploit Mexican workers without penalty? That is what's truly indecent!

~~~~~~~
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- The House is expected to pass legislation on Tuesday that would impose a tenfold increase in the maximum fines for broadcasting sexually explicit or other indecent material, paving the way for the measure to be signed into law.

Television and radio stations would be subject to fines of as much as $325,000 per incident, up from $32,500 that the Federal Communications Commission currently may impose. The Senate already passed identical legislation last month. Cable companies aren't affected.

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?dist=newsfinder&siteid=google&guid=%7BB41CA257-AC7C-42D5-99DA-2B25189D1497%7D&keyword=

Besides, in bushworld, companies are NOT penalized. Hello??? :)

The question is: Will the Bush Regime and Congress actually
utilize solutions that would benefit American workers?

I always felt there should be a reward of automatic citizenship if you turn in an illegal company and you provide proof they are illegal.

I think, perhaps, that the fine should be per illegal hired and that there is a $20,000 reward (out of the illegal company's pockets) to the person who turned them in. Also, the approximate hours and real wages should be estimated for each worker and the company should be made to pay them back so that they will have earned fair wages.

The company will be put on notice that they are on a list and will be checked on periodically to make sure they stay within the confines of the law.

How about a "3 strikes law" along with it? On the 3rd conviction for illegal hiring, the employer goes to jail.

We'd have no illegal immigration problem in very short order.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

Economic Patriots' Forum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

North American Fair Trade Agreement. We can still import and export goods tariff-free if all three countries (The US, Canada, and Mexico) agree to reduce unemployment to a minimum by having US companies keep their jobs in the US; Mexican companies providing and keeping Mexican jobs in Mexico; and Canadian companies keeping their jobs in Canada.

In other words, no importation or exportation of labor; only goods can be traded.

That's a great concept and name change.

Interestingly enough, NAFTA violates the basic tenets of "comparative advantage," which is often touted to justify free trade. Those espousing free trade simply ignore this when they blurt out "comparative advantage" to justify it.

Comparative Advantage, as David Ricardo may clear, does not apply if there is free flow of productive resources of international borders. In other words, Comparative Advantage does NOT apply when American capital flows to a foreign country to exploit cheaper labor as has been done with Mexico.

Trade has to be mutually advantageous. Comparative Advantage is supposed to increase the GDP of both countries involved, as well as benefit both countries. Such is not the case with NAFTA. Capital has flowed out of the U.S. into Mexico to exploit poor, unprotected low-wage workers for the benefit of the few.

The result has been a loss of American jobs and income, as well as American production. There has been no "comparative" improvement in American production or economic wellbeing. The benefits have gone to the affluent few at the top. This could better be described as "comparative disadvantage." Both countries citizenry are worse off as a result of NAFTA.

The flow of cheap labor into the United States, as well as the outflow of jobs and investment capital, needs to stop. The free flow of capital into the lowest wage labor markets of the world helps no one. It suppresses the wages of all other workers who must compete with the lowest-waged workers. And the inflow of low-wage workers into the U.S. suppresses American wages more directly. It forces American workers to accept lower wages to be competitive. And it increases the labor supply which also drives wages down.

And by driving average wages down in the U.S., it drives aggregate wages down as well. This reduces the total amount of money American consumers have to spend on American production, reducing the demand for production. Reducing demand for production also reduces the demand for workers to provide that production. And this labor demand reduction reduces wages and employment even further.

Unrestricted free trade and unrestricted immigration are both losing propositions for American workers. The former reduces the demand for American labor, driving wages down. The latter increases the supply of labor, also driving wages down.

We can't reverse the outsourcing of jobs in the immediate future. Bills concerning outsourcing and free trade are not on the table at present. In contrast, immigration bills are on the table at present. This is a topic of current legislation in Congress right now. We cannot allow the Senate's amnesty version to go through. It will suppress wages even further than they've already been suppressed through previous illegal immigration.

We have 7 million illegal immigrants working in this country at present. Do we want to increase this number even further? Will the wage suppression be any less if we "legalize" them? Won't that just increase the number already coming over the border?

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

Economic Patriots' Forum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

Tha't the only way...get infraction, fine them, they would have to hire Americans for American jobs...Bush would never ever consider it though...that's exaclly why were in the mess were in...

:kick: