I am scared for Us..seriously..

This is a long post..please please try to understand what I am warning about here..


Evolutionary theory,(regular Darwinism /evolution of species) The theory proposed the notion of natural selection whereby only those who adapted to their circumstances would survive.

Galton was Darwin's brother He applied Darwin's theories to humans and asked how could we control or "improve" evolution by controlling ourselves and controlling each other to strengthen our genetic stock. Francis Galton invented a norm by putting pins in boxes and dropping marbles soon a pile of marbles appeared in the center statistically the most common roll route,this pile of marbles in the middle became the"norm" the"average" it became The Bell Curve..

Galton invented Social Darwinism and "normalcy" he is the "father" of Eugenics. Social Darwinism is accepted as truth by the right wing (even though they deny it as they support it,and are discounting Charles Darwin's observances of evolution in favor of creationism.. this is because Conservatives believe in a divine social order "Manifest Destiny" from God who picks leaders as in Divine right of Kings.Evolution destroys their theological basis of ruler ship and therefore collapses the whole premise of conservatism itself)( that's a whole 'nother posts to get into later)

Back to the Deeper issue..frighteningly.. some of the left buys into these"norms' and pushes itt as"facts" albeit unaware maybe of what the unintended results of their attitudes ..They are preaching social darwinism.

This attitude is what I am worried about. This unconscious and snide oneupmanship and scapegoating of certain people because of Prior made perceptions about them and their character that may not be true, fed by beliefs about other's willpower,motives, moral character and lifestyle choices in our cultural environments..
It combines to create this pressure for 'deviants' to conform to "norms" .This belittling is in effect handing out social death sentences to people as if they should not be allowed to be who they are..This power trip is the invisible psycho-social trap of social darwinism.It appeals to the ego and to the urge for power tripping, feeling superior and being in the"in group" feeds craving of social dominance in us fueled by unacknowledged fear and insecurity or traumas among other things..
(Francis Galton) said:"Eugenics is the study of agencies under social control that may improve or impair the racial qualities of future generations, whether physically or mentally." At what point does the STATE have the right to demand we improve our personal qualities as the state says which qualities are good or bad so we must fit a popular"norm"?

This (state eugenics) violence is always accompanied by cultural assault -- propaganda disguised as principle or knowledge.

"One of the great delusions of our time is that a service system can produce care. All kinds of systems steal this human word.
In doing that, they put the mask of love on the face of control."
-- John McKnight Disability activist.

"Empathy is antithetical to control, which is why control systems demand psychopathy as the standard mode of function."
Keep hierarchy and contractual obligation prostrate before caring, compassion, and a heart-felt responsibility for all life.

***********************************************************
http://www.eugenics-watch.com/roots/chap02.html
Evolutionary theory,another mid-nineteenth century trend, also provided an impetus for the new interpretation of "normal."
Normal equated with average. The desired body was not just aesthetic but one that embodied the physical and moral characteristics of the middle class male. Then the ideal body was replaced by the equally unattainable, though sought after norm. In the classical world, the ideal body was one that was constructed from ideal parts. It was the body of the gods û unattainable for ordinary people. In the classical depiction of the body, we are all less than ideal (Davis, 1995).
The notions of normal promoted by these trends created the imperative to perfect the human body. Assumptions were that the body was in fact "perfectible" and that if it were possible to measure all attributes of humans, the resulting data would conform to a normal distribution, the characteristic bell curve.

While the category "normal" and its implied cognate "abnormal" dichotomize the subject, a tendency illustrated by other similarly dichotomized terms such as "able" and "disabled" and "male" and "female," the division is artificial. This artificiality can be exposed, as Lennard Davis offers, by destabilizing the term. For example, Davis demonstrates this by noting all the conditions of the body that are classified as disabling. He notes the fluidity inherent in the move from familiar disability categories such as blindness, paraplegia, and deafness to less familiar ones such as obesity, MS, and AIDS. At what point does "able" cross over to become "dis-able"? Are there conditions of the body that are exempt from potential pathologies in this way? Susan Wendell supports the argument for destabilizing "normal" by noting that disability categories shift over time. With the ever-increasing pace of work in Western societies, Wendell suggests that new classes of disabled people will be created (eg., people affected by chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome, arthritis, or heart conditions).

****************************************************************
Add to this already long discriminatory list: mental illness,gay,transgendered,yellow teeth,overweight,non christian,unemployed,radical, liberal....

I am very disturbed that some people even on DU are so concerned about other's health issues that do not effect them personally . I see all the unwanted advice,pseudoscience,haughtiness, failed theories, popular science, given in blind ignorance and with superior tone. I see the hate words and false I don't mean to be a bigot but(I'll be an asshole anyway ) posts .

I see the insensitivity,the hatred of sensitivity,the excuses the excusing of bullies and the by-standing. I see all the assumptions made by people who never had a weight issue or never were transgender,black,gay,female,a trauma victim,mentally ill etc ,etc.

I see posts by people who had success themselves but fail to realize they live in a different body and live a different life than whom they are advising to change and failing to listen to...

I do not think people fully understand yet the real and personal DANGER this country faces right now through this hostile push to force cultural"norms" and this lack of empathy and hostility twords differences and these calls for more insensitivity and laws and rules and this whip them into shape mindset. It's scary as hell when bodily health,issues of mental health, lifestyles that are different are called deviant when they are not sociopathic.

It scares me when human beings are blamed by an entire socially engineered ,mass marketed,cultural imperative for being different or not able as if it was a moral or willpower issue with them.

I get worried when people are treated as objects of disdain or forced in a role as the cause of all social problems the"normals" face. This is called SCAPEGOATING. Bullies do it for fun and it causes psychological WOUNDS to the victims. Wounds that sometimes NEVER heal.That wounding in turn can be started up and made culturally 'valid' in another generation of kids .


Failure to empathize with others you find repulsive or deviant ,is a big problem with humans..But,when culture demands this action it is WORSE..Our culture is being conditioned to be bigoted in certain ways from the top down. We are trapped in our "leaders" dreams of a perfect society and we cannot see the way out of it because the way out means disobeying norms and risking rejection..

Remember hippies defied their cultural norms as did punks..Today there is no counterculture of norm defiance big enough to make a counterculture to build a revolution and a new society on.

WE still play by THEIR rules and attack each other because we accept THEIR norms and fear fat,fear losing,fear gay,fear gender differences,fear poverty,fear homeless,smokers,fear the softness,the empathy,addiction,illness,deformity,mental illness, and fear being not normal enough to avoid scrutiny and shame by their own peers should they be seen as not the same enough.

It begins in elementary school when certain kids the fat one,the slow one,the one with a funny arm,or weird skin gets called the cootie bearer,in middle school it intensifies,I almost killed myself several times due to brutal hierarchical scapegoating in middle school by high school the children are beaten down to accept their places and'roles'..After college they are groomed for work.Work is a fascist place.A corporate fiefdom.A big high school with busy work or stuff to do that feels purposeful, where the scapegoat games have slipped into invisibility and have become"normal" culture.But it's still there.

The fat bigotry is alive on DU . Du even has examples of this problem.I have been smacked by it myself ,the bigotry against tattooed people or certain lifestyle habits ,or even misogyny is all here I stay away from the lounge because of this..after all hitler roused the crowds to hate with his rhetoric in the pubs...The lounge is Du's Pub.

It is so frightening to me,seeing all the ugly emotions and self righteous posturing of fascism come forth from snarky smug self important posters who think they are doing suffering people a favor with their unwanted advice and public condemnations.

Even on DU some people are screaming for the state to act and change or worse kill(terry shiavo)those offending people and make them normal or invisible,purge society to make for it's purity in the name of cost cutting ,hyped epidemics.. It all boils down to lets make the deviants suffer and feel shame for being and make them outcast until they fit in.. (lose weight,get over "it", get a job ect.)..The right wing is NOT the only people doing this sick shit.. The left does it too mostly through health and lifestyle. Bush and the Neocon and this warping of our culture to over value certain NORMS and scapegoat, devalue and put blame and moral shame upon people who do not or cannot despite trying can't live up to the image of this arbitrary "normal" enough to be worthy of life or acceptance.


This trend is hurtful to the victims of it and for many especially those not a target it is INVISIBLE to themselves when they do it.. People who fit the norm often cannot see the privilege they have and how they abuse others for it is"natural" to them a norm..

Healthy people, listen to the people who were thin and got fat or were fat and got thin they see both sides of exactly what I am speaking about here in this culture. They see the scapegoating trend making our culture sick, that in turn can make all of us insane and sick...All this calculated pain while profit is made from the unaware trying to make the norm. Just to feel accepted as another human being but they fail and pay and fail and resort to getting half their stomach cut out,in the h=name of appearing ok worthy of love and consideration as a human being....It is so tragic.

And this is all borne by a fear of empathy conditioned to make our culture hard,and in this subtle divisive dehumanizing way of separating and elevating haves from have nots,giving haves permission to belittle have nots,eugenics can be slipped into public policy when the"people" demand the state DO SOMETHING about the Problem epidemic the state and corporation helped foster with their unfettered exploitation ..If you study sociological history ,the lesser known aspects of fascism, psycho history and psychology carefully it becomes crystal clear what is happening to us.

I dread the future because I will probably be one of the first populations targeted to go the death camps,I am anti authoritarian,non Christian,a bit fat,transgender,bisexual,mentally ill,tattooed all over,a wild dresser, I question everything,including norms ,outspoken,a bully hater,disabled,unemployed,mixed race(melungeon)and liberal.
And too damn intelligent to be taken seriously,by the masses.
Unless I get a 'translator" to make it simple. I fear the state would love to silence me if I got too loud ,too clear and too understood by too many people..

I am as far away from"normal" as you can get.


~"Linguistic theory shows that we interpret new stories in terms of old ones we have internalized and now use to judge reality.When new stories deviate too drastically from those that form our current understanding, we denounce them as false or dangerous.The free market of ideas is useful mainly for solving small clearly bounded disputes.History shows it has proven much less useful for redressing systemic evils such as racism and sexism.Language requires an interpretive paradigm,which is a certain set
of shared meanings that a group agrees to attach to words and terms. If racism is deeply inscribed in that paradigm carved into a thousand scripts,roles,stories,lifestyles...-One cannot speak out against it without appearing incoherent."~
Richard Delgado and Jean Stefinac,Must We Defend Nazis.


"We will no longer attempt to prove how reasonable we can be. We will go before them, face to face, to fight for our freedom.
"We will not be held hostage to their administrative efficiency. We will not keep to our place. We will never again be put away.
We are freedom fighters now.
And this is war."
-- Mouth Magazine

1) Francis Galton was Darwin's half cousin, not his brother
2) He coined the term eugenics, and was genuinely optimistic about the prospect of bettering humanity.
3) He (and many scientists of his time) thought almost everything behavioral from alcoholism to mental illness to tendencies toward Socialism were the result of genetics (obviously this hasn't panned out).
4) Monsters of the fascist persuasion used Darwin's ideas as a post facto justification for their own racism, religionism, and general hate.

1) Francis Galton was Darwin's half cousin, not his brother

OK I goofed I'm my own grandpa.


2) He coined the term eugenics, and was genuinely optimistic about the prospect of bettering humanity.

As were the Nazis they too were very optimistic about the future..Every well meaning meddler has such optimism. Yes love by sa system of care puts a mask on control,and for the do gooders it feels SO helpful good and wholesome. and PURPOSEFUL.

What's your point?.

3) He (and many scientists of his time) thought almost everything behavioral from alcoholism to mental illness to tendencies toward Socialism were the result of genetics (obviously this hasn't panned out).

"I dread the future because I will probably be one of the first populations targeted to go the death camps"


Unless you live by yourself on an island or something.

Sheesh. What s/he meant was perfectly clear: s/he is a member of populations that will be the first to go...

Not saying I personally agree with the OP's thrust, but at least try to address the actual topic, rather than quibbling over pedantic stuff...

I disagree with you on alot of stuff..Thanks for the support,really. :)

I just won't tolerate scapegoating,hurtful words or belittling and discounting others voices couched as advice ,moral depreciation or 'facts' that's all. When you don't do that.. I'm cool with ya!..I got no issues with you as a person bloo!

it's a behavior.A behavior that is nasty a person does does not mean it's who they are. When they ain't bullying they are fine.., I'm cool when they're cool.I just don't tolerate certain hurtful verbal games...in conversations I am part of,it's called a boundary.
http://www.skysite.org/boundaries.html

EDIT: But that's alright... no need to re-hash it here - let's just enjoy this moment of camaraderie. :)

Oooh.. I am such a evil person.. I Forgot to say..IN!!



"I dread the future because I will probably be **IN **one of the first populations targeted to go the death camps"

Feel better now? *pat,pat,pat*

Didn't you get ANYTHING in the post that I was worried about in my post ..oh Snarky one? Sheesh what is it with this nit picky crap...Any deep THINKERS or FEELERS out there not hung up on typos, soundbytes and factoid fuckups brave enough to consider the meaning of the deeper ideas I am trying to relate here?

One of the things I wonder about - and fear. What
if we get national health care, and someone, somewhere
smugly decides that some particular group is too
expensive to treat, or not worth treating - perhaps
because they "brought it on themselves."

I think the post is well worth reading and considering,
particularly the overall idea.

K&R.

National health care great idea Until.. you see shit like THIS:
http://www.mentalhealthcommission.gov/
http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2005/10/3/223530/406
http://www.beverlye.com/200410131912.html
http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=930
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/drugs.htm
http://www.choicesmagazine.org/2004-3/obesity/2004-3-03.htm

Origins of the Genome project..
http://www.piercelaw.edu/risk/vol5/spring/cookdeeg.htm

Price tag on your body minis the spirit..
http://www.soundmedicine.iu.edu/archive/2003/quiz/humanWorth.html

The cost of Inequality
http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2005/english/ch9/chap9_page4.htm

Cost of bullies
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/costs.htm

To this whole phenomenon comes from a respect of diversity rooted in science and understanding nature, and value for humanity and individual liberty. I know that sounds trite because every word I just used has been twisted around so much, but the meaning also remains: In nature, all kinds of diversity thrives because diversity is stable and strong. Homogeneity is weak. If it were naturally optimal for all people to look and act the same, we would. However, this tends to wind up with everybody getting wiped out by the same disease, so we are diverse by natures design. "Our diversity is our strength"
Respect of diversity, not just in physical form but in ideology, implies a culture of individual liberty and freedom. This too makes us strong. However, That individual freedom must take into account the natural concept of symbiosis, or working together for common goals. In nature symbiotic relationships stretch across all kinds of different species, implying that our common interest in humanity stretch across our differences. "One love!"
So the goal for me is to fight for individual liberty and humanity as a whole in all that I do.

Remember hippies defied their cultural norms as did punks..Today there is no counterculture of norm defiance big enough to make a counterculture to build a revolution and a new society on.

Hippies turned into Reaganites (too much drugs will do that to ya)

I have no clue as to what the punks became. Apart from disillusioned if not capitulators...

But the fact today's generation is so willing (we love our electronic toys) does speak volumes.

OTOH, what will today's generation become tomorrow?

This sounds mainly like a paranoid rant. Never before in my life have I heard so much attention given to the rights of GLBT's. Is everything going smoothly? No. But with so much attention to the matter, the dialogs are occuring; which is more than I can say for things like the demonization of smokers. Also, there are groups out there promoting the beauty and benefits of fatness; not so for the smokers. Needless to say, I am a smoker. But the point I make is valid. If I were you, I would be a whole lot more worried if these things were occurring and no one was getting a chance to publicize a different perspective; but that just isn't the case. Gayness and even transgender-ness are being treated kindly and sympathetically in tv and movies. I didn't see this happening with smoker's during the "attack smoker's rights" era. So I think you have more on your side than you think. Also, so many people get tatoos these days, that it is in vogue as well. I mean I read your supposed reasons for being one of the first to go; and I don't see you being outside the arena that has folks rooting for you. I mean a huge percentage of diabeties is caused by fat and lazy syndrome, but instead of disallowing this group from getting reasonable insurance (and hence jobs in many cases as with smoking); more and more helpful drugs and testers and all this medical help comes to the fat and lazy so they can continue to have self inflicted diabeties and high blood pressure. Gosh, I sure wish smokers were treated with such support. So I think you have valid concerns, but are failing to see the forces already establishing your "rights" even if the moral majority aren't hopping on board yet.

saturated with smoke can cause people discomfort if the air is saturated.
See howe I treat smokers..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1347695#1361816

And please jumping on gays and fat people because you don't feel like you get respected enough is not the answer to get respect.This isn't a yardstick to determine who's naughty or nice. I could get on your lazy addict ass tripe back at you . But I won't.
Please curb your transparent envy.And realize I am not an anti cig bigot.The Smokers have researched quite a bit into health fascism and I am thankful.
But Also I will not suffer when there is too much smoke making my eyes hurt too.I will ask but within reason and I certainly don't treat smokers who are my friends like lessors.Shit, A smoker is going to be moving into my smoke free house,and yeah he will smoke here..When he moves in he has a right to do what he does.I have been Friends with him since second grade.

Most just became mainstream liberals, like Tom Hayden. A lot teach. If they were capable of morphing down into Reaganism, then they either weren't in the first place, or were somehow damaged, either by drugs or COINTELPRO.

Abbie Hoffman remained a faithful Digger until the day he died. Jerry Rubin -- well, he at least was never a Reaganite.

My point being -- they were right, and they levitated the Pentagon one hundred feet in the air. They were more effective than we have been. Yet -- on the other side, Nixon specifically targeted Hoffman, referring to him in the tapes as 'that damned radical Jew'. Target. Operation. Strategy. Strong effort using our tax dollars to effectively retard the progress of all mankind, and they have the money and the stunted ethics to be able to carry out things the hippies could never do. On the left, even the violence of the Weathermen targeted property, not lives. Human, the hippies were indeed. But the things they expressed are still ringing throughout the culture with a positive effect.

Can you name three hippies that became Reaganites? Neil Young. And now he's back. Who else?

Punks, now, I wouldn't be surprised if they were Republicans. Or dead. Nihilistic Pleasure-Seeking and Violence -- smells like College Republicans.

This attitude is what I am worried about. This unconscious and snide oneupmanship and scapegoating of certain people because of Prior made perceptions about them and their character that may not be true, fed by beliefs about other's willpower,motives, moral character and lifestyle choices in our cultural environments..
It combines to create this pressure for 'deviants' to conform to "norms" .This belittling is in effect handing out social death sentences to people as if they should not be allowed to be who they are..This power trip is the invisible psycho-social trap of social darwinism.

That's quite a stretch. I think you're generalizing and exaggerating too much. These are more like common human foibles that are just par for the course for anonymous message boards. Sure, progressives can appear self-righteous, too, but IMHO you really overkill your point here.

Your screed reminds me of the whole "PC" debate. Collectively the thinking people of the world are rational humanists, and the world has progressed to the point where certain ideas are shown by the preponderance of the evidence to be false or malicious. An intelligent progressive will recognize that there are always "exceptions" to the rule and that opinions should be respected. Discussion should be calm and reasonable, devoid of personal attacks and self-righteousness. Humanity CAN and HAS slowly evolved and progressed in its collective mindset. We have to do this in our minds out of a love for truth, not out of hate and greed.

I'm sorry, but DU has nothing to do with Social Darwinism.

With their bad attitude.. This is what I am worried about. This unconscious and snide oneupmanship and scapegoating of certain people (IT Happens on DU TOO)because of Prior made perceptions of INDIVIDUALS on DU, about certain people and their character that may or may not be true, fed by cultural beliefs about other's willpower,motives, moral character and lifestyle choices in our cultural environments..
It combines to create this pressure for 'deviants' to conform to "norms" .This belittling is in effect handing out social death sentences to people as if they should not be allowed to be who they are..This power trip is the invisible psycho-social trap of social darwinism.

I STAND BY THIS.

That's quite a stretch. I think you're generalizing and exaggerating too much.


Really..How is it exaggeration when you get called names,made fun of,when people treat you like you are some sort of moral inferior because of body weight or your appearance doesn't match the ideal model set forth for culture to pressure us into imitating?I got treated like shit in the lounge because I admired Stalking Cat and I am tattooing myself in my own feline way..Because I like it.When does personal preferences become an excuse to belittle and exclude people? Some Du members are guilty of this.I have spoken to some people sick of the bullying and snide hatred some bullying posters do here as they LEFT du.I am not the only one disgusted by the snot-slingers among the good people of DU.


>These are more like common human foibles that are just par for the course for anonymous message boards. Sure, progressives can appear self-righteous, too, but IMHO you really overkill your point here.>

Really? ..Human foibles unchecked pooh poohed and encouraged in the wrong ways can turn a culture ugly.I don't pretend verbal abuse and self righteous humiliation of others is nothing because it's a so called foible,because it isn't one.

<Your screed reminds me of the whole "PC" debate. >

P.C. was originally an attempt to stop the cultural condoning of verbal abuse and bigotry that bullies with mean hearts use to control others and stop discussions.. P.C. got out of hand ,it was misapplied used unwisely, because bullies on the left,and later bullies on the right co opted it and now it is a tool of the right,far removed from it's original intent.

<Collectively the thinking people of the world are rational humanists, and the world has progressed to the point where certain ideas are shown by the preponderance of the evidence to be false or malicious. An intelligent progressive will recognize that there are always "exceptions" to the rule and that opinions should be respected.>


But it just doesn't happen that way does it..You discounted my opinion and disrespected it by saying it is to some of the dogmatic calories in VS burned dogmatists and the snot balls who say fat people are just lazy,and poor people ask to be poor and women asked to be raped....There ARE threads like this even on DU.

Wanna see some?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=230&topic_id=285&mesg_id=285

Transbigots..on DU.complaining a female wears a mens uniform as if it's an awful moral crime.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=138620.2
Look at some of the disgusting comments in this thread smearing disabled people.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1930797&mesg_id=1930797


<Discussion should be calm and reasonable, devoid of personal attacks and self-righteousness.>

In fantasy land it might be that way maybe .But in reality it ain't gonna be that way any time soon unless people reinforce that boundary and do not play favorites when their buddies snark.. Most humans have emotions, and experiences some are painful or significant to them and they need a voice too whether you particularly can't deal with emotions or not is not my problem it is yours.

That said surely you must be capable of empathizing when People who have been hurt ,they are sensitized .And others are desensitized, they are bullies. Our culture manipulates emotions and fears,the media hypes and sells and lies ,We are not Vulcan's. WEe NEED EMPATHY..And Another DUer agrees!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1370051

<Humanity CAN and HAS slowly evolved and progressed in its collective mindset. We have to do this in our minds out of a love for truth, not out of hate and greed.>

Agreed,on the most part,But Realistically everyone isn't as "enlightened" and into"discipline" as much you are.And some people are More enlightened than you,your point? What I am saying is in real life people get scapegoated and hurt by cultural prejudices even among"progressives" and this"normal" game makes it all worse.. Science gets sucked into it and cannot be intellectually honest because of the moral bigotry in their own heads,There are so many complications to finding the truth on some issues it is like a needle in a haystack.

What I am saying is CAN we can be better people to each other? Yes, we can!! We can get sensitized by listening,and not assuming ,one way is to ignore hype,ignore cultural pressures to make everyone conform bodily gender or otherwise..WE can get over bigotries and foibles and not promote social darwinism with self righteous snarks and self serving haughtiness and know it all "advice" and give up overblown pride over self "discipline"and bootstrap pulling crap aimed at vulnerable people.

darwinism or the way I view social darwinism. I don't see DU'ers fitting that mold. Practitioners of modern SD are the "it's all about me" philosophy...or "i've got mine, why should I worry about you".

This philosophy is eerily republicanisque. It can almost be boiled down to good versus evil. By advancing and protecting the "social network" that the republicans are so determined to destroy, we are the last line of defense against SD.

Just my two cents.

<we are the last line of defense against SD.>

And this is what scares me..YES..We are the last line of defense and we are being influenced by it and people even on DU support it when they say fat people need to have the state control portions sizes,or when they say fat people are inferior and should blame themselves for not having perfect bodies,or the shiavo threads where peiople were demanding she be killed.And nobodyy realkly stopped and asked why why did she have to die she wasen't hurting ianybody vegging out..her parents loved her ,but no people couched it as mercy killing..And THat is EXACTLY what the Nazis did..And NOBODY except some of us on the disabled forum knew enough history to see it.

DemBones DemBones (1000+ posts) Mon Mar-28-05 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. "Futility of life" laws, like the one * signed while governor of Texas -- the law just used to kill a black baby -- exist in 21 states. They're getting REALLY popular in our the-botttom-line-is-all-that-matters society. They were put in place by lawyers like George Felos, who represents Michael Schiavo. Felos used to be on the board of the hospice where Terri is being starved at this moment. He's been very involved with the for-profit hospice movement and the so-called "right to die" movement, which has a nasty tinge of "DUTY to die" behind the "right to privacy" and "death with dignity" rhetoric.

Another link that needs to be made is Art Caplan, the "bioethicist"from U of Penn, often trotted out to talk about how ethical it is to kill Terri Schiavo. He supports those "futility of life" laws that are all about denying treatment to people whose wallet is a little on the thin side. Then there's good old Peter Singer, "bioethicist" at Harvard, who thinks parents should have the right to kill a child up to the age of two years or thereabouts. They're not really people under two, asserts this "bioethicist."

The new Nazis are more like the old Nazis than some want to admit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=250&topic_id=1029&mesg_id=1029

at odds with the majority of my dem friends.

that misuse guns, poisons, fear, _and_ KNOWLEDGE.

You are absolutely right but it isn't Darwin's fault. The United States with it's freedom of ideas REGULARLY marches to terrible consequences based on terrible misuse of what we think we know.

And I'm not talking about hanging witches in Salem, which is about religious hysteria and not knowledge...



Hitler adopted ideas about eugenics from....Yes! THE UNITED STATES!

St. Coletta's School in the Town of Jefferson Wisconsin provided decades of refuge for Teddy Kennedy's sister after her father had her lobotemized.

Oh, and what about chemicals whose side effects we don't know understand but whose benefits we want....um ever hear of DDT, how about Thalidimide babies?

The world of ideas, especially that realm of ideas where greedy corporations and sophomoric social leaders think they really know something about how to make things better, IS a potentially dangerous place.

You get what I am saying..Thanks!

I have gotten into an argument with many a looney-tarian about this very subject.

The small genetic variance in intelligence that separates one human being from another isn't enough of a difference to count as an evolved trait. Think on a scale from a Chimpanzee to Stephen Hawking. Even a flunkee, flag waving Bush supporter is still at the upper end of that scale.

This argument has been brought up before, and the defeat of the Social Darwinism as actual evolution argument, is the assumption that our society/civilization model, is an evolution of ideas for the good of all. What most Social Darwinist models tend to be, are models of global serfdom, where success in that model is usually the acquisition of education, money and enlightenment. Well, the acquisition of those, is a result not of an advanced individual but just an understanding of how the system works, or by system manipulation. Think GW Bush, a person of obviously limited intelligence and social skills by human standards, and left to his own devices, would most likely be unable to hold down a job as a bus driver, yet due to the influence of his family and their manipulation of the system, holds the most powerful position in the world. Nero in Rome is also a good example of that dynamic as well.

Someone way before we came along, learned that this system has only two choices; the abuser or the abused. They also learned how to become an abuser, and passed that knowledge down to you. The model is also self-perpetuating, and large enough that an individual has a hard time understanding it's scope.

Social Darwinism is also a nice way to alleviate the underlying guilt into buying into an inhumanely flawed system. The abusers then have a convenient excuse, such as "it is Social Darwinism, and not us manipulating the system, that keeps the 'unevolved' in misery and poverty.

Just my two cents...

Someone way before we came along, learned that this system has only two choices;


the abuser or the abused.

And we do not have to play this game.We can have boundaries and use our empathy for others at the SAME TIME without becoming a victim or a bully or a bystander.The way out is human dignity and respect for all human beings who understand this and can respect in return..




<They also learned how to become an abuser, and passed that knowledge down to you. The model is also self-perpetuating, and large enough that an individual has a hard time understanding it's scope.>

True. And this is why it's so very important for every person to look at their relationships and be honest about the way they speak to others or about others and ask themselves is this really the kind of culture I want to be part of? An Abuse or be Abused culture?

<Social Darwinism is also a nice way to alleviate the underlying guilt into buying into an inhumanely flawed system. The abusers then have a convenient excuse, such as "it is Social Darwinism, and not us manipulating the system, that keeps the 'unevolved' in misery and poverty.>

Yes there are always and always have been tons of excuses,such as it's human foibles,boys will be boys,she asked for it,victims just want to be victims,the poor want to be poor, and I don't mean to be an asshole but..And a billion other lies we tell ourselves and each other to keep up this evil ugly game of make believe ..It's time to STOP denying it. Time grow past this game,it's time to stop misusing knowledge and power and excusing it..It's time to get off the ego trips stop playing games,and empathize with each other including those who are victims or who you don't understand or consider inferior because of thier body or gender or looks,and form real social boundaries against and consequences for abusers.

Learned behavior to deal with relatives bitching about my smoking/meds/lack of appetite.

As an overweight friend told me once, "You can hide a lot of addictions, but you can't hide a food addiction. Everybody knows." So, I'd go for the cheap shot with the nagging relatives and it got them off my case (and then I'd have to step outside with a cousin for another smoke...:smoke: )

Anyhoo, your point is about normal, and there are more overweight folks who are just overweight by body type than by sheer gluttony. So overweight should not be considered a sin, but just a physical attribute.

And I will continue to bitch about bullies and gluttons, but I will discontinue using 'fat' as a pejorative. If I forget, spank me. :spank:
I apologize if I've ever stung you in a post. I'm not above it when pissed and cornered...

Anyhoo, as to what your post really deals with - to me that would be ACCEPTANCE.

I wish I could tell everyone on this board that they can accept themselves no matter how putrid the current social environment, no matter how the "mainstream" views them, no matter how many petty, shallow Filler People have tormented them.

There are good people out there (and in here).

I am contemplating the Bully Syndrome as it relates to new neighbors. It's such a long story, but you can really see how some folks just BEG the universe to kick their ass, and how their own stupidity gets them in the end.

But it would be so much easier to be a decent neighbor, a friendly, helpful, thoughtful person to begin with. Why is that so hard? Dunno, but the rest of the neighbors are awesome and they understand, so I see the best in it, that these folks would protect me in the end.

You raise a lot of interesting points. I'm telling you, with some research and lotsa hard drive, and Word, you got a book in there....:)

<You raise a lot of interesting points. I'm telling you, with some research and lotsa hard drive, and Word, you got a book in there.... :)>


LOL thank you.. If Only I could organize my thoughts long enough..I got ADD,and it's a pain. I have publishers asking..But I just can't figure out where to begin it's all locked in my head swirling around..and it dribbles out in posts and articles on Unknown news or whatever..,It feels like staring at a big blank canvas and ...Baaalk! ...Except unlike when I get an art block,with one canvas.. with a book the canvas is HUGE pages and pages to fill up a million pictures and I type with one finger Arrgh!.

But anyways that's for your honesty about your use of the the fat card..and why.

"The process of feeling childhood helplessness is absolutely necessary and unavoidable. But it is not, as Janov hoped, of itself sufficient to resolve destructive, and self-destructive, patterns of behavior. As long as the needs continue to be neglected and unfulfilled in the present, old pains and their destructive attendant symptoms will constantly be triggered."
-- Alice Miller in the foreword to Jean Jenson's Reclaiming Your Life


And I want you to know that statement took real guts ! This ,THIS is the kind of real courage you did RIGHT HERE that we all need to embrace..
So if you want I would like to hug you but I don't know how to do a hug icon here yet..Do'h
So I'll do this

((((((hug))))) purrr and everything else wonderful I wish for you!You are awesome Ghost, just Awesome!!

:yourock:

As for the writing, just write.

Perhaps you could make a simple outline of ten truths you want to express about transgenders.

Intersperse your theories and ideas with experiences you have had.

You can do it!!!!!!!!


Sorry still for being mean. I've been spanked for being mean to white males, too. So, I'm evolving....;)

Back in 1977, my best friend in junior high school was a guy who had a mohawk, sat in the commons area on the floor and did art during lunch, and was effeminate as hell. This was way before it was cool to be gay in many circles, and it was definitely uncool to be gay in Virginia Beach, Virginia, land of Oceana Naval Master Jet Base, 15 minutes from the home of the Atlantic Fleet in Norfolk. I was an honor student, and I rode the fence between freaks and geeks and popular kids.

There came a time, however, that a boy I was "going steady with" said "I don't know why you hang out with that guy at lunch. It's embarrassing. Stop it." I asked him, with the innocence of an 8th grader, why it was embarrassing. "Because he's weird. He's not normal."

I've never forgotten that. I wish I could say that I dropped that boy on the spot, but I didn't have that maturity. But I didn't drop my friend either, and the boy broke up with me.

Anyway, the point of this tale of childhood is to say that I learned early that there is no "normal." Everyone is good until they prove otherwise by their behavior. There is no reason to hate, resent, or be fearful of people who are different. They have their own reality, and you should not only respect their world, you should be interested in it. Their world is probably a lot more colorful than your own!

i like what you wrote panther..i hate the idea of being molded or put in a box someone thinks you should be in . am i a lump of play doh or a human being?extend that to a centralized society like ours and i think it is headed toward a
"master race"like hitler ,i wonder if alot of nazi ideas have taken our society over ....maybe the nazis won ww2 in the idea realm ...wish everyone could be accepted as they are .when i look in a mirror do i see my reflection or what someone else has for me ... do they see my perception of myself ?sorry for ranting ...anyway liked your post
egc