What is it with the soccer-based anti-Europeanism here lately?

I keep noticing posts and threads trying to make a case against Europe and European countries barely disguised as pseudo-intellectual explanations for not liking soccer.
To get this cleared up: not liking soccer and finding it boring is a perfectly understandable position. Sport is a cultural thing and enjoying it can be a learned skill. I am bored to tears by baseball, basketball and American football, but I don't try to rationalize that - I see that other people enjoy these fine sports. I'll admit that I am partial to using certain aspects of such sports in jokes and jabs.

What I mean are a few iterated accusations, which I can't see as anything but attempts to spoil the fun for others.

Most of the things posted do have a base and are - deep down - addressing a very real problem. The issue is that the problems are blindly generalized without considering space, nor time. Statements like "beautiful" about reports of racism in third-league matches are just tasteless.

Terrible events at club matches are used to paint soccer, soccer fans and Europeans as generally racist. Yes, it shouldn't happen, but a broad-bush statement without any understanding of the actual, real day-to-day situation is insulting to the vast majority of Europeans and soccer fans. Fact is that the danger of racists staging any bullshit during an international match is practically zero.

Much in the same vein is the fear of drunken fans and hooligans. Hooliganism in the stadium simply doesn't happen in modern days. The thing is practically extinct; there aren't even barriers inside the stadiums any more.

Another example is the much posted thing about the world cup and forced prostitution. Yes, another thing which actually is a real problem. However, contrary to the reports in the US media, there is no notable increase of prostitution, forced or otherwise. Nor is there any evidence of increased human trafficking; the German FBI (BKA) found the numbers floating around to be "100% made up".

It goes on; the constant are sweeping generalizations based on half-understood reports about incidents in Europe. Quite frequently the incidents are not reported altogether correctly or are already used for a political statement. For the other half of the points, prejudices, rumors and Urban Legends are used - using a game to deliver such generalization doesn't improve much.

So please, simply ignore it, if you don't like soccer. For a many, many people all over the world across all social classes, it is a lot of good-natured fun.

</rant>

But I'm going to watch the World Cup, because I'm an African American male who loves Europe and the European friends I've met, who, quite frankly, I've found to be a lot more genuine in general than Americans.

it is the world's sport, and justifiably so.
in fact, I have tickets to warsaw, then I drive to frankfurt to watch the Iranians lose their next match.

REAL QUICK, John Cleese's "Art of Football" A-Z is the FUNNIEST most brutally accurate documentary on the sport to date.

is worldwide people - Futbol Mundial. We play soccer all over the US - oh no!!!

Smell the roses, watch the beautiful game.

I too find baseball an utter waste of time, although before it became a pro sport, college football had its moments of interest. basketball? it they raised the basket to 12 feet, I might learn to like it, if they made it more interesting.

But I've heard a spate of commentary, and a smattering of threads, that somehow Americans are out of synch with the world and this is always a bad thing, that soccer is a sort of multicultural Greater Good. My usual response is that if diversity and independent thinking is good, why is the bandwagon approach to soccer superior to a local sport?

Sport is a cultural matter. Like food. And, frequently, dialect.

The only time I argue food is when people are trying to tell me I'm somehow defective for not eating pig or raw fish. I suggest they try jumiles in a tortilla.

Then again, most of them turn up their noses at peanut butter on egg & onion matzo, which I thoroughly enjoy.

:rofl:

Amazing how we yell at republicans for using this excuse, but DUers are ECSTATIC to use it (EDIT: and so enthusiastically supported) as soon as it's to their advantage to do so.

In fact, they'd rather use that excuse than yell at soccer fans throwing bananas at black people.

Genius.

I am on the streets against Nazis once a week. I am active in several anti-racism and anti-fascism groups in my district and we have a nearby soccer club with a big nazi fan base - I do know the problem.

The sad thing is having people chiming in who only know three newspaper reports. There is a real "bad apple" and racism problem in Europe. Hint: the big stadiums arent't the places where it's worst.

Let me know the number please.

Hope it's not over about 50 though, 'cause that's all google has. Your side is winning - there actually aren't a lot of people talking about it. Way to shove it under the rug, in favor of the happier story about "soccer unifying the world".

Congrats!

Talk about BFC Dynamo fans, and I'll gladly agree that they have a Nazi problem.
Take Lazio Rome, and I'll agree.
Take Rotterdamm and I'll agree.

Take Ajax Amsterdam and I'll say you that you're full of shit.
Take Eintracht Frankfurt and I'll tell you that you're full of shit.
Take TeBe Berlin and I'll tell you that you're full of shit.


There are things that need to be done. For instance verbal abuse and racial slurs need to be red-card offenses during matches (psychological fouls). There has to be a no-tolerance line against fans throwing bananas - they need to be shown that such behavior is not acceptable. All that can't hide the fact that racism inside the stadium tends to be just a symptom of racism outside the stadium.

But I greatly enjoy my visits to stadiums and 95% of the time there is no shit like that. I won't let people ruin my pasttime. Not by Nazis and not by people who feel the need to look down on people simply enjoying a good time.

... do ya think?

But I'm VERY glad to here that YOU enjoy YOUR trips to the stadiums. Glad we got the important stuff settled.

It's just a few bad apples after all - why let it ruin everybody's day by talking about it?

I am just saying that racism is not worse inside the stadiums. Black Germans have to avoid rural East Germany and similar areas, including the stadiums. That's a sad and undeniable fact. Pretty much the same goes for people of north-African origin - by far more frequent in Europe.

But yes: People can enjoy a TeBe match regardless of their origin, passport or color of skin. People can enjoy almost* any first league match, regardless origin, passport or color of skin. People can enjoy any international match, regardless of origin, passport or color of skin.


*In fact there are clubs and areas with an asshole problem.

You keep bringing up the fact that it's WORSE somewhere else.

Um, so what?

Then we can talk about BOTH places. Holy CRAP! I just DID! I guess it wasn't NEARLY as impossible as it appeared, was it?

As if the fact that it sucks somewhere ELSE for folks with brown skin means that we shouldn't talk about it sucking HERE.

Same misdirection ploy as the other dude.

Calling everybody racist because there are racists will surely solve the problem.

Look - you brought up the topic, under the guise of "anti-Europeanism". That's YOUR bamboozlement - to suggest that anyone who's against racism and the various racist things that have been happening in both European soccer, and Europe more generally are the same thing as "anti-Europeanism".

Excellent attempt at framing the issue tho - of course, with all the examples of republicans doing the same, I suppose it really wasn't hard to pick up...

But it's just false that being anti-racism means being anti-European, and you know damn well it's false. It's just a rhetorical ploy a certain segment of the population uses to quash discussion of an "inconvenient truth".


EDIT: It's funny to notice how I reply *directly* to what you *say* at every point in this exchange. You, on the other hand, almost never do, being content instead to MAKE UP words to put in my mouth. Just for shits & giggles, you might wanna try to address what I ACTUALLY say one day. O wait - you can't - that would preclude your shove-it-under-the-rug efforts. My bad.

I say racism is a problem. I say there are things that need to be adressed. I know that most fans are not racist and that most clubs don't tolerate racists. I've posted my honest impressions of soccer in Europe and Germany. I don't deny the issues - on the contrary.

What you say stays a mystery. You accuse all Europeans and soccer fans, but claim not to. You build your smug position out of cherry picked reports with zero understanding of the situation, but claim to know it all.

You totally fail to see regional and national differences, but conveniently use cheap punch-lines.

So, please continue. But please add a disclaimer that you don't know what you're talking about. And keep down the number of accusations - be it the accusation of racism or the accusation about the use of right-wing tactics.

International soccer is a great event actually bringing people together. Club soccer has problems, equivalent to the problems generally found in the European societies.

... and soccer fans".

Quote it.

You said I did it. Are you deliberately saying what is false? If not, you can provide the quote. It's that easy.

The quote has to exhibit me *accusing* ALL europeans and ALL soccer fans.

Please! I would LOVE to see that quote.

The true reason there's no way to reach consensus is that you continue to make up things for me to say, because they're SO much easier to deal with than what I ACTUALLY say. Whereas I deal with what you ACTUALLY say (which, anti-symmetrically enough, is VERY easy for me to do - no need to make shit up on my end).

for yourself, perhaps you should just shut up. Personally I can't stand soccer but I'd say that the average European soccer match shows much less evidence of racism than, say, your average American police force. Or, indeed, recent American hurricane relief management.

... soccer racism?

Thanks for telling me to shut-up, but I think I'll pass :) .

I love the change of defense tho - you all started with the "few bad apples" defense, now you moved on to the "look over there! They do it too! Why talk about *us*?" defense.

Utter genius. As if only one of them is allowed to be criticized at a time.

EDIT: Actually your new, genius defense was a *compound* one. It's what I said above, combined with "you don't hear about all the non-racists in the crowd! Unfair!". ROFL!!! Your new defense was FAR more genius than I initially gave it credit for. Most abject apologies.

After all, Americans have thrown beer bottles, batteries, snowballs, etc. onto fields during sports events. Heck, the Vet in Philly had a courtroom in the basement so they could process all the drunk and disorderly arrests! Pittsburgh Steeler and Cleveland Browns fans have slashed each others tires for years. And in College Park, MD, we have the traditional roving bands of drunks burning things after Terps victories. So don't think that Europeans are the only ones that have hooligans.

Europeans are racist. Prostitution is skyrocketing. Hooligans are out of control.

Never let facts stand in the way of moral grandstanding or useless hyperbole, my friend.

See: Atwater, Lee and Rove, Karl.

While I don't doubt that there are some here who have made insensitive comments about something it's obvious matters a lot to you, there really isn't any rampant anti-Europeanism or anti-soccerism going on here. I've only seen one thread where there might be some, and I didn't even open it because I don't really give a shit. However, I fully defend their right to say whatever they want about it, and yours to post this. I guess my point is to keep things in perspective. Of the more than 90,000 members, I'm sure only a handfull are responsible for saying the things you mention.

:D

That's part of the whole point.