We deserve an apology. You abused our trust Mr. Leopold...

This episode has reduced the credibility of the entire internet left. I think it is about time you write one last story, what really happened with Karl Rove. Did you really have sources? If so, who were they? We might just accept an apology, but I don't know if we will. It really isn't up to myself alone, I know I could forgive you, and hopefully other people will as well. I do know one thing, you will not be trusted again.

This whole episode is also our responsibility as a community. We have been too quick to assume rumors are correct and the truth isn't. We have been so devoted to our ideology, the facts have just become temporary stumbling blocks. While the right has its "intelligent design," we have our "Rove story," "did they really kill Zarqawi," and "was 9/11 an inside job." I could go on listing the conspiracy theories on our side, but there are too many. I have always believed the wonder of our side, is that we respect the truth, but in the past few weeks I have been sorely disappointed. We should not treat rumors with more credibility than professional news outlets. They may have a bias, but the there is only so much one can distort without crossing the "Pravda-line."

I think the next few days should be a period of reflection for us all. Maybe there should be some form of peer review created for these blogs, that way if they are original investigations they can have some sort of credibility. A type of "official approval" logo. That way we can be certain future internet investigative reporting is accurate.

get over it.

Hi :hi:

We are such fragile tings, the INTERNET LEFT. Whatever the hell that is.

There are fights out there, a reporter probebly getting burned by some sources is not one of them.

But I realize, it worked to get rid of Rather, Now Jason. Who's next?

RepubliCONS get it wrong most of the time and they NEVER say "sorry."

The mighty NYT's gets it wrong and that's OK?

With all their resources and they still get it wrong (unless they did it with the full knowledge that Judith Miller was telling a LIE>

In a way, his story put a lot of pressure on them because people looked at ROVE as if he was guilty.

That feeling, not just because of one bloggers story, was floating in the wind.

I haven't changed my opinion one bit now that he "got off."

And, I don't care what Bill O'Reilly thinks or Ann Coulter ~ the TRUTH will come out some day and I refuse to bash one of our own.

If Mr. Leopold is interested in continuing as a journalist, he will issue corrections and apologies appropriately. "Getting over it" implies either unconditional amnesty or willful ignorance, and neither of these becomes a skeptical activist.

TO will either enforce good journalistic standards or not.

I hope he follows up on his threat to reveal his sources if they fed him bad information.

If he was really deceived.

Maybe I might believe that he was a little too readily seduced by "secret sources" for the original story. Understandable. He's a young, independent journalist, trying to make a name for himself.

But the aftermath is not so easily excusable. The Sealed v. Sealed nonsense was a deliberate and hastily composed CYA piece that took his readers for fools. That is what people resent most.

product of Liepold's fevered and fertile imagination...

n/t

Time to junk it and get a new one.

I assume that you avoid the 'non-credible' media sources that delivered both of the above non-truths, too? By that, I mean the New York Times, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, MSNBC, etc....

So what news DO you read that has this 'official approval' logo on it?

A little while back, I was looking through the internet archive, for DU's history. I found a very good statement from the beginning of this war, it predicted everything we eventually found out. No one, except for a few people read it and listened to it, and we went to Iraq.

I think we have to realize the only reason now believe that there were no weapons of mass destruction, is the MSM.

There are probably some people out there who believe al-Qaeda was conspiring with Saddam, not the fundies, but normal people who aren't interested in politics.


We can put up conspiracy theories, but the only thing they serve to do is reduce our credibility if they don't turn out to be correct.

..by saying there isn't?

Excuse me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but that's how it reads to me.

??

1. No one listened, even though we were right.
2. Truth Out was dissed on the MSM cable news channels (not Fox, MSNBC and CNN.)
3. ^The only thing unsubstantiated rumors do is hurt us.^
4. We need to be listened to, if we have proof. I made a suggestion about this in my OP.

Too little, too late... he's still scum... but...

:shrug:

Does not anticipate? No one could have anticipated planes flying into a building either.

When Fitz says it's over, it's over. He's the only fat lady in this opera.

cynical to anything written on the internet....actually most sources of information now seem suspect to me. It would have meant alot to many of us, if this had turned out to be a reputable source, rather than another boulevard of broken dreams. I'd like to see articles or excerpts from these sort of sites highlighted with a buyer beware caveat on DU.

wrong like our mainstream corporwhoremedia circus and they get it wrong cause they're in bed with the chimphouse.

Just because such appeared in a handful of websites by a handful of people, that does not mean it was my belief.

Another one for the bit bucket

I think you are totally caught up in the drama and are attacking the wrong people. Good grief! When you can successfully walk on water I'll give your opinion some attention. Until then try to lighten up.

We ALL make mistakes and you know he feels bad enough already. Why do you think you should make it worse?

It's not an "attack" to point out deficiencies and demand corrections/apologies. It's defense of our precious public discourse.

and we'll never get any apologies from any of them and yes we deserve more that apologies as does the rest of the world from *.
However, I think TO thought they were giving the correct information, why would they screw themselves over Karl Rove?

It must be mortifying to have what you thought was the truth dissolve in front of your very eyes so I'm not angry at TO. I am disappointed that we aren't seeing any light at the end of the tunnel but I don't hold hard feelings toward TO.

Anyway, it was sad that it wasn't true and I'm sure we'll get an apology.

...who should, as you anticipate, issue an apology for whatever he did wrong. Every day we don't get one makes me angrier.

If there is a good explanation for the apparent errors, or if TO is just being careful at a follow-up, I'll owe them an apology. Last we've heard, though, they're sticking by the story. I hope that the issue is not just being swept under the carpet.

they are still sticking by the story?

Something is going on then. Will Pitt would not risk his entire reputation over something he knew was a lie, of that I'm sure. Something isn't quite right here is it?

These guys aren't our enemies, therefore I can only surmise that there is more here than meets the eye.

Thanks for the info.

We are too quick to assume rumors are correct, but the internets have a way of working that all out. The bullshit flies around at light speed, but so do the corrections and rebuttals, so that ultimately the facts win out.

Peer reviewed blogs? Good housekeeping seal of approval on posts to something like DU? Good luck on those moves.

From Christy Hardin Smith at firedoglake:
And there's more...Just go read the whole thing.

But more importantly, contemplate this:

The single source for this story is Rove's attorney, Robert Luskin. Luskin's claim to the press is in the best interest of his client -- and not the press or the public. truthout.org says Luskin's claim is directly contradicted by multiple-sourced information. Most tellingly: Luskin was spinning nonstop since Rove clearly became a "person of interest" to Fitz; now, suddenly, Luskin says he's not going to be discussing the matter -- clamming up, in effect.

Luskin is spinning. Don't get spun like the so-called "liberal media."

You think just like a freeper. In extremes of black and white. In conclusions.

I was watching MSNBC and they were ragging on Truth Out. I know it doesn't really discredit everyone, but unfortunately we need to be able to present credible information to people. If people can trust us, we might be able to prevent major disasters like the Iraq war. Remember how DU had up that statement? It was completely correct. If the normal non-partisan people of our country had paid attention to it, they would have been out in the streets protesting every day. We might have stopped Iraq before it started. People didn't listen, and here we are.

now you say? so you were just pouring gas on the fire because.....

He assured me that he was on the level as were his sources. Well, Mr. Leopold its time to out your sources.

Isn't it possible that the information he had at the time WAS correct?

What does he have to gain by lying?

I emailed him support at the beginning. We emailed back and forth, and he restated his belief in the story. You dont have to believe it. Maybe he was spun bad. He claims he was going to out his sources if this didnt come to fruition.

What do I have to gain by lying?

:popcorn:

Were those with no skepticism, critical thinking skills, and the True Believers who read crap that tells them things they LIKE to hear as opposed to what is real. In other words, the left's equivalent of Faux News.

I can do without that.

Yes let's just take this administration's word and the M$M word on things... The war was the truth, right? When the President said he would fire the leakers and knew that he and everyone else were the leakers, that was the truth right? When the President said he had to get a "court order" to wire-tap Americans that was the truth right?

I could go on and on, but I think you understand. With the lies this Administration tells, you have to be ever vigilant for the truth... It helps to question everything...

They deserve something too.

:hi:

... or more than they are willing to publicly admit to. The reality is this: the ones who are truly "shit out of luck" (as you say) are the ones who stubbornly and defiantly stand by and defend something that has clearly not materialized and has been demonstrated to be untrue.

Such "loyalty" to the fantasy story of Rove's indictment is NOT a virtue. It's not something to be respected. It's their wasted effort. It's their wasted credibility. It's their wasted time.

You say the "fuckwits...just haven't figured it out", but the reality of who actually hasn't "figured it out" is becoming more and more apparent.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:silly: :wtf: :shrug: :banghead:

and let is pass ignominiously into the bit bucket of a lonely drive in Skinner's basement.

How ya' doing, btw?

I wish things were as black and white as that in MY world.

"Leopold lied to us."

"Traitor! You just want to see Rove go free!!"

"Uh...huh?"

Time to step outside the binary system, pal.

Blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaablaa blaa blaa

Yeah whatever....

:hi:

Get over it - it's not affecting anyone - I don't know a single person who even knows about this story outside of DU.

I think he should out his sources at this point.

:shrug:

I am wondering where this JL story is big news outside of a few politically informed blogger type people. I told my family he was going to be indicted and they simply forgot because I am not the MSM. A "heads up" from the blogosphere is only news if it pans out - otherwise people just forget about it. How many people who are not political bloggers do you know that were aware of this story and all it's spinning?

... how it can be used against us is. Plus it does very little to bolster any arguments about how unreliable "MSM" :eyes: (or corporate media) is. Further, the premature cheering and gloating and the ubiquitous "I-stand-by-whomever" threads look pretty silly now.

This "big story" that was "guaranteed" certainly does nothing for the credibility of alternate news sources. Our cries that "MSM" :eyes: can't be trusted ring pretty hollow now, don't they?

in the TO basket, I am certainly not feeling bad for hoping upon hope that it was true, but Rove isn't exactly managing Bush so well anyway. In fact, polls before and after Zarqawi incident show no change in public opinion whatsoever - Bush even has had to show up in Baghdad to try to boost his numbers - pretty pathetic if you ask me. I'm ready to move on...

journalistic standards to "out" sources that asked to be anonymous? Not that Liepold is a journalist....

Just something to consider here - I would be livid and they say they STILL are sticking with their story? Very strange indeed...

human group dynamics/psychology in action... happens all the time... people bond in response to a very stress full situation, and keep ignoring reality... textbook case, actually...


Edited to add: Circle the wagons...

...even the wagon circling is eventually straightened out when a path is chosen that is safest for the wagons to escape. Perhaps this announcement today will invite a more vigorous debate amongst those at TO to do something more decisive.

forthcoming (more vague generalities, really), but one would think eventually they would have to put out a REAL explanation... hopefully it will be soon...

This story broke just this morning, I hope we will see a response within a day...

I thought we could use a little constructive criticism. I guess I was wrong.

Will someone please lock this thread?

that's all

The first sentence is a whopper and turns the reader off by making them feel defensive... I've wanted to undo posts before too - no problem, we all do it :D

I'm sorry. Thanks for going easy on me.

He was just doing his job. I repeat, this hullabaloo is unseemly.

.. but if he fooled Will Pitt he probably could have fooled me.

Just wondering.

"We should not treat rumors with more credibility than professional news outlets."

I think it should be abundantly clear that the existence of "professional news outlets"
is itself a so-called Conspiracy Theory. Similar to that "Bigfoot" creature.

I've seen very little news outside of the hatching of some celebrity's egg out there.
Especially, nothing of concern to the left.

I *do* hear a whole lot of bloviating about how great it is we blew up some guy in
the mid-east and how that's "turning the corner" once again.

TO should lay all of their background on the table, and reveal how they got the story so so wrong. That would be a good step in redeeming credibility.

wouldn't it?

yes, it would be interesting. 'Anatomy of a disaster' stories are always interesting.

a mistake. Do you want to burn him at the fucking stake?

It wasn't the ludicrous story full of its own self-contradictions, inconsistencies and utter absurdities, or the laughable amendment of 24 hours to 24 business hours that they owe an apology for.

It's the utter arrogance, meanness, and downright durnken ugliness of Will Pitt and the dismissive arrogance and obtuseness of Ash and Leopold in defending the story against its critics and questioners that requires a true apology, not the half-assed bullshit apology/non-apology Pitt issued last Week.

Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for an apology of any kind from these people. I've utterly lost respect and trust for them. They played hundreds of loyal followers like a fiddle and jacked the rest of us around in an utmost disrespectful manner. They insulted us personally when they weren't insulting our intelligence. And they have the gall to pretend they're journalists?

So, yeah, why not figuratively "burn (them) at the stake"?

The OP calls for an apology. I don't think that's too extreme.

Oh, and revealing his sources would be nice too.

that the story was fales/he was duped.

So where's the sources?

Why can't we see this level of indignation (and the dogged, relentless persistence to "expose and humiliate" the "liar") at the many rotten lies that Bush, Rove, and Company have perpetrated!?

:grr:

that. It's sick and disgusting.
But I'm still holdig out. Not sure if he actually made a mistake.
I'm so disgusted with the MSM it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were covering up info. to protect Rove and the Bush crime family.
Sick fuckers!

hence the great effort to get all of us to follow their lynching. I find it amusing... I want to see Rove get nailed, but not upset to the point where I am going to turn against other liberal journalists. Nope... no sale.

absolutely. PCkelly is right. This hurts independent journalists in general not just the "internet left" We're not the future of information yet. We have to do it better and cleaner than the MSM to gain that ground of credibility. Leopold cost us yardage.

:hi:

Oh, not Ken Mehlman? Well, then...

Dan Bartlett!!! How've you been!!!

They guy who writes a false story gets off without having to issue an apology.

The guy who writes something asking for an apology, gets called a freeper?

Seems fair to me.

At least that's what I recall him saying (on Ed Schultz show). Perhaps I mis-heard over the roar of the engine and the whizzing of cars around me, but that's what it sounded like.

Anyway, the point is you're feeding the frenzy. I'm deeply devastated about the Rove "news" as anyone. And I'm waiting to see the letter, too!

As to the Leopold story, I was thrilled! Even ecstatic! But, I didn't stake everything into it. After the 'deadline' passed, and then a few more days it got placed on the back burner of memory. So now, next time, I don't put as much stock in such an explosive exclusive from Jason Leopold. I'll second and third source it myself. :shrug:

You can have your opinion, and that's fine. It's just my opinion the the OMG! DEMAND AN APOLOGY NOW! time is better spent reminding people that Non-Indictment of Rove does not prove his innocence. In fact, the extensive investigation is proof he was deeply involved. That's what we need to keep at the forefront.

I am surprised he got himself so wrapped up with this. It's not over yet but you can bet he will be more careful in the future. I would even go as far to say he might have of been set up later on in the end

Geez...I guess CBS doesn't get thier official seal either, right?

:sarcasm:

Jason is one of the best reporters around.
I still read truthout.
get over it.
really.

Was Bush elected? Did Oswald kill Kennedy? Who was behind 9/11? Oh that's right the whold story was KNOWN the afternoon of 11/22 and 9/11. CASE CLOSED. Everything you've been told since you can out of your mama's womb about America is a pack of lies. But it is MUCH easier to believe what you were told. Maybe you should apply for a job at CNN. They report only the truth. The truth that got us to today. You aren't even paying attention if you don't doubt every single thing out of their mouths. Of course I doubt Truthout, and Leopold. But I've far more worried about those with the power, and the bombs, and the billions. Why aren't you? Oh and DU is the place for you. Just vote for Hillary and all will be fine.

Many on the left questioned this story with all their might. I think it actually lends credibility in the end. The RW doesn't question, the left does and did question this story and others.

Try again.

or something... :D

But seriously. It's time to out those sources. Why protect people who were fucking you over?

I have been shocked by the multitudes here falling over themselves to defend Leopold. One of the most popular defenses has been, "Well, the RW lies all the time. They've been wrong a hell of a lot, too". So that makes the lies, mistruths and errors coming from our side acceptable?

It saddens me that for many people it isn't at all about right and wrong anymore; only winning and losing.

BWAAAA-HA-HA!!! The MSM? :rofl:

And seriously, you don't believe 911 was an inside job? We should trust YOUR judgement? :rofl:

And this is just scary:

We should not treat rumors with more credibility than professional news outlets. They may have a bias, but the there is only so much one can distort without crossing the "Pravda-line."

assuming "we" were gullible enough to hang on to our little cups of wishful thinking even after Rove's lawyers categorically denied every detail of the story, and no other media source (not even in the lefty blogosphere that I'm aware of) picked it up.

Don't you folks ever give it up? Divide and conquer. Demand perfection and infallibility for our side, immediately verifiable, and ignore murder and corruption on the side of fascists. Good work.

It was not the original mistaken reporting in the TO story, it is the ongoing coverup and inability to admit a mistake. If TO had leveled with its readership from the beginning, a mistake could be easily forgiven and credibility maintained. News publications occasionally have to do this - it's called a retraction. And that means a REAL apology, i.e., we're sorry we reported untruths as facts. That is not the same as a bogus non-apology , i.e, we're "sorry" that you readers are too stupid to understand the TO story was simply ahead of the news curve, or we're "sorry" that you readers are of such "low mental weight" that you took the story literally.

TO made a mistake in trusting Leopold on this story without a second verification. If TO cannot see this was a mistake, what is to keep them from repeating this? Of course, we all make mistakes. It is usually a part of growth to make errors. What I want from TO is some reassurance that they realize they made a mistake and what steps they are taking to prevent this happening again.
Liberal news sources, and DU is such a source for many people, get a bad name from this kind of reporting. We must police our own if we are to enjoy credibility with the American public.

now what does that remind me of? i'm sure i've seen it before...

Who did this?

PRICELESS.

Are two people using this person's ID, and if so, who was the first one? Do other high-count posters lend out their ID's on occasion? Maybe for a fee?

That would explain a lot of what happened here yesterday.

WTF? That is the weirdest bullshit I have ever heard. This topic was in the trash bin. We all are over pissing on each other. People are realizing the err of their ways, on both sides of this debate.

to defend the official 9/11 story.

Look at his resume and tell me why he deserved trust.

but certainly a retraction & explanation.

x