For Christ's sake, Put the pitchforks down...

I've been a member of DU for a couple of years now. I've never made it a secret that I'm a registered Republican for a reason... to prove that not all Republicans are mindless morons who support the administration, and to know for sure that DU objectively measures people by their attitudes and not by their labels.

Well I have very mixed feelings on that last one.

For the most part, being a moderate Republican, I find myself in agreement with many liberal notions. The conservative side of me can't stand the administration's involvement in illegal warfare, profligate spending, and abrogation of the Constitution itself.

I have found that, indeed, DUers tend to deal with people more on points of philosophy rather than associations.

Which leaves me scratching my head when I see DUers fall upon people whose track records are otherwise exemplary.

Truthout, to me, has been a vital resource for research and understanding of the dire issues that face us as a nation. Jason Leopold, until now and to the best of my knowledge, has been a staunch advocate of the truth and a fine journalist.

And here I find DUers calling for no less than the dissolution of Truthout.org?

We know that DU is a big place, and there will be those who will sow antagonism of all varieties, but at the core of DU, the philosophy of truth is paramount, and no amount of misplaced rancor over abject disappointment should have us shooting messengers the way the Neo-cons do.

This is a fabulous opportunity for those with 'adversarial philosophies' to sow that discord among an otherwise thoughtful and pensive community.

Don't buy into it, just take a breath, and wait.

Otherwise we just improve Rove's day all the way around.

Wish I had included your praise for truthout and Jason leopold in my post. fine journalist, fine website.
you say you're a republican?

Why do I always feel compelled to apologize when someone asks me that?

The people who own the WH and Congress right now are not Republicans, they are criminals, and they are forever trashing an otherwise decent philosophy.

I mentioned it only because I think it's important to illustrate the deliberation and consideration I have become accustomed to on DU... a direct contrast to all those who want to burn first and learn later.

I think this person would agree with you.

http://www.progressiveu.org/100931-rove-roller-coaster-derailed#comment-47945

Sorry, can't help it but the labels "fringe" come to mind with what I've been seeing on here today by a few. Thank you!

Anything that gives the rat bastard glee is not to be advanced or discussed.

Kudos!

It seems the more ignorant a person is of the way things really work, the quicker they are to demand someone's head for any perceived wrong-doing or mis-step.

Sad isn't it? I enjoyed your post. :toast:

Julie

As of August 2003 I heard of the Plame case and was Immediately inclined to see Novak 'hung in the square'.

Just because my first reaction was correct doesn't make it 'right'.

Thanks for the wisdom and introspection.

Garth

as they are more reliable than the mainstream press most of the time. So they got duped once. They still have an impressive record.

btw you may think you are a Republican, but you aren't because you are still by your own admission first and foremost an American and the Republican Party today is anti-Constitutional and very unAmerican, IMHO.

Well, I guess nobody's perfect.

Your post speaks for me as well - though I'll never ever vote for another Republican after what they've done to our democracy...

('course I never was a Republican, but I used to occasionally vote for them as the better candidate - never again)

the more disgusted I become.
I've been one since I was 18 (ran in the family).

I have a friend who is a staunch Democrat, right after 2000 he re-registered as a Rebublican.

Bet you can guess why.

really, need a hint here.

So he can vote in Republican primaries and in general elections.

It's a small gesture of subterfuge, but noble.

Well and truly said, sir. Kudos.

May calmer heads prevail.

Because if you do, then you're not one of us and don't belong here.

"Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

I am puzzled, if you enjoy being here and participating, why you are STILL a registered Republican and aren't working to get Democrats elected. You talk a nice talk.

snipers inhabiting DU today... the personally offended, the falsely angry...yes, those people. :hi:

Geez.. the poster makes a very reasoned post, has played nicely with DU for a quite a while and you (who are you anyway?) decide you're the membership committee and bouncer all in one? Take a chill pill... I've been here since 2001, and have seen all types come and go. And I've seen, in the past year, some really ugly shit being perpetrated on newbies, moderates, and those that don't fit the mold of what a particular member feels is acceptable.

LEAVE the original poster alone.

I do not deserve to be attacked and denegrated by you. If this guy is voting for Republicans, he isn't one of us, no matter how nice he plays.

I have voted for republicans in the past as well. I will likely never vote for one again but I certainly have never blindly voted for all of the D's on the ballot. I voted Libertarian in '92, Clinton in '96, Gore in '00, and I didn't vote in 04 because I was deployed in a combat zone but I would have voted for Kerry only with profound hesitancy. If the Dems can not put up a worthwhile candidate (which is the curse of any political party in some races) than why the hell do they blindly deverve my vote?

that they are Republicans. Worry about the ones who don't and pretend to be Democrats... Kudos to the OP for having the stuff to speak up and let us know...:hi:

I don't have a problem with him being here. We shouldn't be like the Freeper site. As soon as they find out you're a Democrat, they don't want you there anymore.

Tammy

-except in the primaries.

Other than that I do indeed work to get Democrats elected. But I will not rule out Independents or Libertarians.

Right now the corruption of the "Republicans" is obscene. I can't imagine voting for any.

I might have voted for McCain in 2000 if he beat Gore in the debates... I did like McCain back then (before he turned spineless). But Bush? -I smelled 'incompetent' all over him.

One of the other reasons I remain Republican is the in-roads it gives me to inform other Republicans. When you tell a Bush-bot you are a Republican, they automatically assume rapport. (they really are very two-dimensional) Tis opens them up to discussion and before they know it we're agreeing about the state of the economy, the federal deficit, and numerous other issues.

When someone assumes you're 'on their side', it's amazing how much more they will absorb. It's important not to push them over the tipping-point though.

Kind of like when people around here find out I'm a Republican- most realize that the BA is caustic enough to alienate anyone with intellect, but some immediately shut me out and hurl insults... as you can see from this very thread.

Thanks for reminding me... I have to update my journal!

I'm working on a young man who works down the street... I've had three more encounters which have been marginally encouraging...

IMO. As I have stated in many other posts, most repubs I know personally voted for dems in 2002 and 2004 and plan to in 2006. In contrast, most dems I know personally(IRL) bought into the propaganda and voted for Bush.

I think you should worry more about the dems that voted for Bush and social conservatives.

Leopold (IMO) and so very much to do with the green eyed monster that sometimes pops out and cheers when illustrious posters misstep or are believed to have misstepped. Even when I vehemently oppose the thoughts of another, I try not to eat my own and rejoice in their downfall. It's petty, childish behaviour. :hi: :toast:

I'm glad you're here.

Being able to focus while keeping perspective.

(Just as an aside. I may rant and rave around here. But it's partly because when I look up from my central focal point I see something that is a lot more frightening than Rove or Bush. And this place is where I found people who were in a similar mind set. That's just my story.)

I say this last part because sometimes when fears converge, it is very difficult to keep perspective even when we try. It's a worrisome time. I encourage rational thinking. I don't use it often enough. And thank you for pointing out this important concept. Sometimes I wonder what those barracks were like, at night, in Auschwitz. I wonder how they kept their perspective. That isn't a comparison, but a ad lib thought.

preceded him on this story. There were serious questions about his journalistic license PRIOR to this story. That said, I agree...the long knives should be put away

Leopold is certainly sketchy.

The thrust is that we can't allow this one issue to cast doubt on an otherwise valuable resource.

It's really insane to watch the battling regarding that issue. Hey.. they had a scoop that turned out to be either wrong, or right at the time and wrong now. For every bad story that a news group puts out are they forced out of business? It seems so weird that people are getting so crazed over this. Do those people not have jobs or lives? Cuz it's not exactly life or death stuff.. it's a scoop that went awry. Big deal.

I'm with you... it's really crazy.

if they could get CBS and get "to" CBS..and Dan Rather..what would make us think they would not set up a progressive web site..

i have mostly stayed out of this conversation..

and will again after i write this..but ..who here does not know Dan Rather was set up??

with all the biggest bucks behind Dan..and a lifelong , class act of credibility..

and the fuckers got Dan Rather..with all the revenge they could ...

so who and What is a Jason Leapold to these fuckers??


why are we not looking deeper..Look at Fitz..read 9/11 Coverup by Peter Lance..look at the back ground of Fitz..i am not saying he is anything but the real deal..but look at the backfround of who Fitz worked for in NY..and take some deep breaths...

Jason was set up..and without the big bucks behind a small web site the likes of MsM...

why do we hold Jason above the tweeties..the NYT the Washington post..the Washington times..the whole bunch of fucking liars..why are we not holding the same fire under their feet??

look the NYT was the whore for this war..this war has killed tens of thousands of innocent people...

why are we not writing posts daily holding them responsible..

instead we are in a tizzy over Jason Leapold..

no one died over Jasons story..

many have died over the NYT's stories!!

lets see the same furvor over the real criminals...the MSM!!

we still sit here daily and still do not know who outed a CIA NOC AGENT.. until we know that..this adminsitration..someone.. there is guilty of treason...

lets just hope Fitz has the stuff on whoever did that!!..and that he holds them responsible!

fly

I agree with you 100 percent Flyarm. Thanks for stating what so many of us are feeling these days. I think that this is just the beginning of the dirty tricks that will be played in order to maintain control of Congress and, as a result, continue with the horrible policies that this administration has always planned on carrying out. And of course, avoiding any pesky inquiries and hearings that might interfere with their agenda.

is that for the most part, Liberals aren't talking about banning the other party, like the Neo-cons are doing. One party government is not a good thing, no matter if the basic philosophy is left leaning or right.

As a matter of fact, I'm not so sure I'd want to live in a country under one party Democratic rule for very long, although our track record in the past is much better than this dysfunctional bunch of right wing assholes we have now.

The country needs thoughtful, deliberate conservatives like yourself to keep us in balance. Just like it needs what it isn't getting now, a thoughtful, deliberate liberal camp to balance against the extreme right wing nutbags that have taken over and are currently running our country into the ground. Despite what the right wing propaganda machine says, the vaunted "liberal bias" they complain about is a much believed but poorly proven myth. It's only recently that liberals have gotten any positive press at all, and it is starting to look like the recent events in Iraq are turning the tide back.

The Democrats, and the Greens. Screw the pukes.

a Par-tee..they're a death sentence!

You are on the right side.

Maybe he got it wrong... but even if he did, one honest mistake can be forgiven.

Fox News lies on purpose every single hour of every single day. Focus your anger there.

I'm not equipped to call Leopold a liar, but he does seem to have been wrong this time around (again), and the error (if it is one) is being compounded by repetition (if not embellishment).

I don't know how many strikes makes one "out," but if the apparent errors are not explained or apologized for, I'm going to have to stop extending even a bit of trust.

The efforts of liberalism do not need even one such incident. Each one assists FOX in its mission by diluting our energy.

Do tell.

They 'allow' "Republicans" who share a common disdain for the assholes currently disguised as Republicans in our government.

The prejudice you are smitten with is a symptom of the division sown among Americans by those who would keep us from having constructive discourse.

I'm quite certain that most Republicans would agree with common-sense Democrats as I do... if only they were not afflicted with the same divisive meme that has apparently been inflicted upon you as well.

...you needn't be surprised to find that even we DUers will burn the occasional witch. We're as human as the Republicans, though generally more open-minded.

I explain that in the OP.

I do often take the time to explain my position to those who are prejudiced. I do so to let people know that not all Republicans are bush-bots.

Long time DUers tend to ask me about my positions rather diplomatically, I respect that.

"Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

That describe you?

A yes or no will do.

Most republicans are greedy selfish pigs. Me Me Me Me Me.

"Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

That describe you?

further up-thread, or no?

If Lieberman were prez and I didn't like him, could I post at Free Republic?

Thank you. You sound like the kind of Republican I used to love having friendly arguments with over a beer or two. We'd go away invigorated, not at each others' throats. I keep asking people where the real Republicans are. Glad to know you are here :toast:

I used to have nice, sane Republicans as friends. I find myself wondering where they all went, too. It would be wonderful if they came back...sigh.

Tammy

But they're hard to find. My sister dates one; she says one of the reasons she likes him so much is that they can have great political arguments.

want but you are a republican and you vote republican so you are the enemy that is destroying my country no matter how you try to cover your tracks.
Tell people what they want to hear and then strike. Nice but I don't buy it.

I "vote Republican"?

When you ASS-ume, it makes an ass out of you... no... just you.

If you are not sophisticated enough to grasp why it is a good thing that I chose to stay registered as a Republican, I would be happy to explain it to you.

Your rage keeps you blind, and it keeps this country divided. I am here for the opposite reason... to prove that Dems are not the only ones opposed to this administration.
Most Libertarians who used to vote Republican are coming around lately, as are Independents and even Reform party folks (though not as many).

Not just what magic pool did you look in to make the determination that I 'vote Republican'?

You might also do yourself a favor and read through a thread before posting to it, you might have noticed this;

"I do often take the time to explain my position to those who are prejudiced. I do so to let people know that not all Republicans are bush-bots.

Long time DUers tend to ask me about my positions rather diplomatically, I respect that."

-and thought more about your 'attack'.

The people that are destroying OUR country are not real Republicans- they just wear the title to get the votes of the sheep of-the-same-name.

I am no such sheep.

The attack seems to be yours.
If you are a repuke and admit it on this forum what do you expect?
I will not post one good word about you as I said say what you want I don't buy it.
Saying you are are a registered repuke and on a Democratic forum is like saying you are a little bit pregnant either you are or you are not a Democrat.
If you are then register as one don't try and hand us that.

There are sane people that realize alienation is bad and understanding is good.

Don't be the mirror image of the rabid right wing... of which I am not. In doing so you will fail to acquire vital allies through your intolerance for those who stand with you.

Some people can't see past a label and actually bother with the product underneath. It's sad, in a way. Not worth your time to try and change someone who just isn't willing to budge one millimeter.

I was on a 'conservative' board once.

I was the Republican who didn't agree with the administration. Instead of dealing with my arguments (Plame was one issue), they only sought to label me a 'liberal'. Once they convinced each-other that I was not a Republican, they had me kicked off the board.

It was amazing.

They didn't even try to debate or discuss the points I made. It was far more important to label me so they didn't have to confront my arguments. -Pathetic.

Just like this 'Berserker' creature- no depth or consideration. Must be fairly young.

But I suppose someone had to prove the exception to an otherwise abundant rule I've found of DU;
"and to know for sure that DU objectively measures people by their attitudes and not by their labels.

There's always one.

I've found that I am by far not the only 'Republican' around here... I'm just the one who's kept the 'R' on his registration card.

We'll see.

1) You imply that pitchforks are only being wielded by those who "fall upon people whose track records are otherwise exemplary":

a) You don't comment on the witch-hunts and purity-tests being demanded on other threads in order to root out people who have criticized Leopold Viz. Divisiveness and primitive pitchfork-wielding mobs do not only happen on the 'other' side of your argument.

b) Jason Leopold's track record is far from exemplary. He has not been a "staunch advocate of the truth and a fine journalist" by any objective measure. Even WilliamPitt acknowledged his questionable background, but there are many other sources, if you care to improve the best of your knowledge.

2) I haven't seen anybody "calling for no less than the dissolution of Truthout.org". Please link to it, otherwise it's pure hyperbole from you.

3) You talk about "the philosophy of truth" being paramount. I almost agree: it's the reality of truth that is paramount, not just the philosophy. Anything else is "truthiness". The reality is what the critics of Jason Leopold's recent reporting have been trying to promote. Truth, facts, evidence, critical thinking, etc. Unfortunately, reality just bit us all in the bum: we were all hoping for Rove to be indicted as part of this investigation but some of us didn't believe Leopold's version of events.

4) You are right that this is "a fabulous opportunity for those with 'adversarial philosophies' to sow that discord among an otherwise thoughtful and pensive community". I just think you are wrong about who is doing it.

EDIT: typo

I didn't have as many facts on Leopold as I do now.

I can acknowledge he has a checkered past.

But my point was that bashing Will Pitt and Truth Out is sheer mindlessness on top of this mess.

Allow me to quote myself;

"Don't buy into it, just take a breath, and wait.

Otherwise we just improve Rove's day all the way around."

And yes, I did in fact read more than one post that suggested that Truthout be 'shut down'. The first one I read has since been deleted by a moderator, the others I will try to come up with.
I made NO exageration.

If you would simply wish to call me a liar, then so be it. I could scarcely care.

On #3 I disagree with you. Truth is more a philosophy open to personal interpretation based on scope of context. The only truth is silence.
I do, however, believe in an empirical and objective reality where all things can be measured and quantified. - What 'is' and 'is not'.

If you are more concerned with the latter, then I can certainly agree that DUers tend toward the empirical universe as do I.

But there is indeed a 'philosophy of truth' practiced on DU... at least to a greater degree than most other DBs.

Peace.

..."calling for no less than the dissolution of Truthout.org"...yes, somebody did post that around the lunch-hour today. If I was not in a rush to get back to work I would've replied to that post. I am a second witness to the "hyperbole".

Dr_eldritch: Given that it was such an ephemeral, limited and obviously asinine position for someone to take, why bother citing it at all in the OP? Why extrapolate such an extreme position to justify your point about the objectivity of DUers' in general?

Judging a large number of us on one extreme example is exaggeration and hyperbole.

On Edit: I'll put down the pitchfork when you do so.

Have I judged so many?

I did not, at any point, suggest that 'one extreme example' represents 'a large number' of DUers.

I saw many threads in which people were calling for Leopold's head, the dissolution of truthout, or an apology from both. I saw people chime in in agreement, and I saw cooler heads tell them to take a step back.

That's all this thread is about.

Again, if you think I'm lying, come out and say it.

Otherwise we really aren't in disagreement over much of anything.

If you just feel like arguing for the sake of argument, don't be disappointed if I don't join you.

-I hold no such pitchfork.

Nice to see a *sane* Republican here instead of the usual nuts. I'm not against all Republicans--just the neocons & fundies. I know that moderate Republicans are getting fed up with the direction their party is going in. I hope that the moderates can take the party back. I think that you need to have more than one point of view in a democracy, so I am certainly not for the total destruction of your party.

Also, I am one of the individuals who is angry at TO, but I only feel angry because I am so sick & tired of all the bad news. I really let myself hope that this time, we'd bag one of the neocons. I'll get over the TO thing eventually, I guess.

Tammy

During one of the debates when he harnessed a nation of ignorant people and told us Gore's numbers were "fuzzy math". I realized that a few million people just said to themselves... "Uhhh, Ok, that explains why I didn't understand what he wuz sayin' with all them fancy numbers... it wuz 'fuzzy math'... that Gore thought he could trick me!"

I saw the guy harness ignorance to his advantage. I knew this was a very bad sign. I explained it to my brother who still voted for him... now my brother admits he got taken in.

I didn't realize what an indication of his administration's methods that one little phrase really was.

And now we live in a country divided between the willfully ignorant and manically informed.

:D

light 'em up!

(I'm stealing that one too - wife loves the rest)

;)

I also hope you don't mind that I put your stuff up on other sites. (with attributation... of course)

PLEASE DO! :hi:

Feel free to post this new one too: :D

on the desktop?

I did the one with Bush and the 'Texas Chainsaw massacre'... I even arranged my Icons around it to 'enhance' the effect.

Fun stuff man... big thanks!

One day, when I have the time, I am going to create a web gallery for all my pix (at a higher resolution), that will also include my own background music. ;)

when people of both parties could have a sane discussion of their differing viewpoints. Oftentimes, listening to my republican friends or family members I would give them their due for making thoughtful points. I know they did the same when I expressed my views.
Sad that those days are long gone. I blame Karl, Rush, Hannity, Delay and most importantly the elimination of the "Fairness Doctrine" for this incredibly divided country. I'd be willing to bet that the North and South actually got along better in 1860 than repubs and dems do now!

I actually liked Clinton... he was quite moderate and very effective.

So when I criticized something he did or a bill he signed, it was a genuine critique of the executive.

Now we have an executive whose incompetence knows no depth, breadth, width, or bounds... and his proponents need a new rabies battery every month.

This is insanity. I can't believe what has happened to once civil discourse.

GONE stop turning the other cheek and start kicking there ass.
We have to stop the good old days bullshit and face reality. We either group together and take our country back or it's over. No more playing nice fuck the repukes.

When my Rush-bot sister continued to sing the white house imposter's praises even with his stupid stand on stem cell research. My daughter, her neice, is a type 1 juvenile diabetic whose life and health could very well depend on this important research.
I told my sister "When my child goes blind from her diabetes, make sure you tell her how you just had to vote for bush because you thought he'd give you some tax breaks" :grr:

from time to time if you want to stay here. Believe me, it's happened to me and I have been here since 2001. I used to be a Republican as well, but saw the light in the 90s during the Clinton impeachment. Once I became a Dem, I realized I always should have been once.

Disillusioned with the Dems and how they handled the election debacle in 2000 (my first election as a Dem), I found this site and proceeded to act like a Republican. I held the Dems' feet to the fire here. In return, I got the pitchfork in the posterior. After a while, I realized I had to take it, then defend myself, and persevere if I wanted to stay here. And I did. I hope you do as well.

I really couldn't believe they were such stark-raving, rabid, petty, vindictive hypocrites.

I made a decision to stay Republican then because I thought someone should at least be the kind of Republican that the party used to represent.

Don't get me wrong, I criticized Clinton too... but for REAL issues. Even then, nothing he did can amount to the immensity of the crimes of the BA.

I really do feel :puke: just thinking about it sometimes.

Glad someone understands.

"And here I find DUers calling for no less than the dissolution of Truthout.org?"

I read that earlier in the day but didn't have time to post. Calling for the dissolution of Truthout.org has got to be one of the dumbest posts I've seen on DU in a long time. Especially in this age of disinformation, psyops, and the successful execution by the Bush Regime of the PNAC agenda put forth in "Rebuilding America's Defenses".

Bush has been executing on that agenda almost to every literal point. One of those points (in "Rebuilding") is engagement in cyber-warfare, fighting the free flow of information tooth and nail. I would not put it past Rove and Bush to have planted misinformation (1) to out leakers and (2) to damage the credibility of alternative journalism ungoverned by the Big 6 (the pro-Bush, pro-war, pro-public debt monopolistic owners of the 29,000+ major media outlets).

To jump up and call for the "dissolution of Truthout.org" -- reminds me of the undercover police agitators at the 2003 FTAA protests in Miami. It does not serve our cause.

"And here I find DUers calling for no less than the dissolution of Truthout.org?

We know that DU is a big place, and there will be those who will sow antagonism of all varieties..."

I've been accused of exagerating about that in this very thread. Did you see some of those posts too? They were what prompted me to post this.

The core principle of DU should be 'cooler heads'... that way it is immune to such attacks.

Do you realize that places like DU are akin to the "free speech zones" during Presidential elections? If it has to be zoned, it isn't free!

I only mention because I think most don't realize that even this little space of "freedom" allowed us by the fascist oligarchy that stands behind Bush is soon to be taken from us. I mean, "net neutrality" doesn't stand a chance. COPE and other onslaughts of money against a free internet will once again drown out our voices behind those who can attract the sponsorship of the owning class. We'll be reduced again to handing out mimeographed pamphlettes on street corners, thereby effectively silenced -- and, hey, without the outright censorship laws of the Third Reich!

I'm certainly no cooler head, but crying out for the dissolution of Truthout in these circumstances (as we both agree) has got to be the dumbest waste of keystrokes, bandwidth, and pixels I've seen in some time.

...and with the 4th amendment gone eyes are on the 1st
that's why i'm spittin' cyanide each and every verse
i see the Carlyle group and Harris bank accounts
i see 'em plead the 5th each and every session now
and while Reichstag burns see the public buy it
i see the profilin' see the media's compliance
war is good for business see the vicious make a savior
hope you understand the time brother 'cause it's major

what would you do if you
knew all of the things we know
would you stand up for truth
or would you turn away too?
and then what if you saw
all of the things that's wrong
would you stand tall and strong?
or would you turn and walk away?

Excerpt from Paris, What Would You Do? hope you understand the time brother 'cause it's major!

But I refuse to let it into my heart.

I know that we will transcend those forces of repression and darkness... there can be no other outcome but the destruction of the human race itself. (which the fundies are actively working toward)

There are only two possible ultimate outcomes for the human race;

Divine transcendence

-or-

Oblivion

Period.

The MIC will be shed like a rash, or it will destroy itself when it does us all in.

I'm betting that it is not inherently evil, but will rather ultimately choose survival by changing... eventually... into a more life-oriented entity.

Either that or we go to oblivion... in which case....

Who's gonna know?

Hi, Dr. e, from a FDR Dem. Raised by my grandparents to be considerate of others and honest.

Occasionally I rag on the Rs of the present, because they have sold their souls to the TheoCon cabal. I have several friends who stated long ago that they did not leave the Republican Party, the Party left them; they maintain their R. registration, grit their teeth and vote D. almost consistently.

And as to the pitchforks, remember that the "left's" most obvious trait is to argue amongst themselves. My German-ancestry family does the same thing- you just gotta know when to stop the argument by breaking out the sausage and beer. A little polka music doesn't hurt. :hi:

edited f/spelling

And the party did indeed abandon us.

Thank you for that.

Nothing better than eating your own.

and make some goddamned noise!

...I nearly got banned for having the infernal folly actually saying something positive about Nader :D

"First off, you know I'm not a big fan of the money-hating-left.

Second of all, Markos is correct: Don't whine about being ignored, THEN whine about being the object of affection.

Third, personally I was a bit Warnered-out by the end of the conference - he did kind of go a bit wild on the publicity. But that's not a money-is-bad issue, that's just a enough-of-Mark-Warner-I-get-it-already issue.

Fourth, some people are never happy.

Fifth, someone is always going to be unhappy, so sometimes you just have to say "whatever."

Sixth, just because someone complains doesn't make them right.

And seventh, just because someone complains loudly doesn't make them representative of anyone more than themselves."

Hope it makes us easier to understand. Actually, because we think so independently is what makes us so great. However, I only wish just once we could become an ant colony and win a vital election.