Give Up

I'm sorry I posted such an optimistic viewpoint earlier. I'm not feeling it anymore. Our efforts here and in the polls aren't doing anything; Bush is still in power, Rove is still around, and Republicans still dominate everything.

It probably makes you feel better to "decompress" after watching Ann on TV. She pissed you off, and you had to get it off your chest. But you're not doing anything but preaching to the choir. The audience cheered her like any other celebrity. Nobody sees through her hate except for us and a precious other few.

We're outgunned, outnumbered, and outfinanced. A bunch of college students and ex-hippies who are fighting against high-powered corporate interests.

And are we really changing anything?

I had faith that Gore would win in 2000. He didn't. I had faith that Americans would see through the Patriot Act and other such measures. They didn't, and the Patriot Act is still law today. I had faith that Americans would elect someone that could really lead this country in 2004. They didn't.

We've been dealt loss after loss. What's the point anymore? Nothing we've done or said has stuck. When a political party has been dealt so many blows, it's a good indication that that party's on the wrong side of history.

We're finished. Might as well surrender and start voting Republican.

Spirit. :eyes:

You'll think differently in a day or two.

Sorry. It's hard for me to be optimistic anymore. * has been draining that out of me for the past five years.
Ringo

Surrender. Resistance is futile. :sarcasm:

We fight this fight because it's right. Not because we know if we'll win, or not.

But what if we're wrong?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just asking.
Ringo

Really.

This too will pass.

I swear I'm not a Freeper trying to cause trouble. I'm just not so optimistic and cocky anymore.

It just seems that national Democrats have been given every opportunity to score a lot of political points against * lately, and they seem too stupid to figure out which way is up. Meanwhile, we talk a lot here, preaching to the choir, but nothing is really changing. DeLay was outed and that's a victory, but a shallow one. There are lots more Republicans in the House and Senate that deserve to be outed, but nobody's going to vote against them but us.

I've been putting my heart on my sleeve and trusting the American people to do the right thing for five years now. And almost every time, they've let me down. Reelecting dumbass. Giving mAnn undeserved publicity.

I'm just not so sure about Americans anymore.
Ringo

We have a Democratic party that has a deep division from it's right wing which calls itself centrist, and its center-left which styles itself progressive.
On the other side of the aisle we have the corporatist/militarists, the theocrats, and the crooks. Are you seriously considering surrender? These people are the Ann Coulter wet dream boyz, and you think they will have anything to do with your ass that doesn't doesn't involve being a lampshade?

Wake the fuck up. Don't be cocky, truth is, some ugly shit's gonna come down. Don't trust 'the American People' they are being fed such a stream of shit that only the big waves are going to rock them. But the big waves are comin mon. Get your shit together, figure out how you fit in, and be ready to do your thing when the tsunami hits.

I see little choice but to have the progressives take back control via the velvet glove encased brass knuckles. But to do that, you gotta get on your back feet, little donkey.

man, they have gotten into your head, then...

But the main protagonist still lost horribly; it was barely a moral victory.

Kinda existential, and all.

Which I sometimes think myself when I'm feeling down, it doesn't mean we're on the wrong side of history. America was the right idea. If the American people no longer understand that because they've become too stupid, hateful, spoiled, petty, shallow, lazy and selfish, well... they're destined for a rude awakening someday. These guys are taking everything from us, and I don't know if the people are going to stop them. If not, then the people will learn a bitter lesson about taking things for granted. And on that day a new generation of true Americans will be born to start the fight anew.

Maybe we have to lose our liberty every few generations so that we can be reminded it's worth fighting for.

I couldn't of possibly said it better myself.

So I express a viewpoint that you don't like - that may go against your own viewpoint - and you say goodbye?

You too quickly write people off. I'm just expressing some doubt. I'm not necessarily ready to completely overturn my entire belief system here. Geez.
Ringo

You aren't getting any converts tonight.

Give up and leave already.

:rofl:

"Give up" = "I'm just expressing some doubt"

Stupidest thing I've ever seen.

You didn't deserve that.

I'm out of sorts tonight - I'm not sure what's wrong. Gonna log out of DU because I need a break. I'll probably feel better in the morning.
Ringo

the whine-to-the-mods button may as well not exist for me. Give as you see fit.

and I no longer have faith in America or it's people, but I will never surrender as long as I'm here.

necessarily uplifting...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1431978&mesg_id=1431978

I think we're all delusional if we don't realize we are caught in a nightmare that is part of the inherent and unstoppable cycle of human history. Things will never *really* "get better".

BUT - like someone else said re: Vonnegut, that doesn't mean we have to give up. Be realistic, yes (and this will help with the defeatism and depression and nihilism), but the important thing to remember, the thing that truly makes you human, is to continue to Do the Right Thing.

:hug:

Thanks, Stella. Interesting reading. That might be true in this case.
Ringo

... very well put - that's how I see it as well.

We can call, write letters, shout from the rooftops - but how do you change the mind of a country?

You don't. Eventually the country sees it was wrong and it changes itself. I suppose we can help the country see - but there is a limit to our real power.

Hasn't anyone here ever had a self-destructive friend, one you cared about and yet was hell-bent on destroying his/her life no matter how much you tried to dissuade them? That is how I feel about America right now.

Personally, I don't feel like jumping a bridge just yet.

No way I can ever willingly vote to support these people or their crooked ideology and corruption. Not when I KNOW that they are wrong.

There's no shame in standing on principle, no matter what goes on around you. I'll do so until the day that Bush and his cronies and the entire NeoCon movement are forced from power and swept away by the inevitable forces of time and change.

Remember what Ghandi said:

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, always."
--Mahatma Gandhi

Was he not correct about history? Will time not prove him correct yet one more time?

tyrannies always return

and the vast majority of human history has been experienced under one or another.

IMHO, the American republic was a bright moment in a long, long Dark Age. We were lucky to have experienced it.

From:
We Can Do This!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1430905&mesg_id=1430905

Give Up
We're finished. Might as well surrender and start voting Republican.


:dilemma:

I dunno. But please don't block me. I'm just expressing doubt, not becoming a lifelong Republican.
Ringo

You're so gonna get whiplash flip-floppin' like that - from 'we can do it' to 'give up'?!

The concern is touching but ... no thanks, I don't want any 'Concern Pie'. But you go right ahead & indulge.

You call it 'flip-flopping'. I call it giving voice to valid concerns.
Ringo

pace yourself. It's way to early to burn out - we're just getting warmed up here! If an oldie like me isn't ready to throw in the towel & give up, then those (like you, dear - as well as my kids!) that we stand & fight for have to stay strong & stand shoulder to shoulder w/us! Put on some of that fine music you have posted as favs on your site, catch your wind, frame your thoughts & come back swinging.

Voicing concern like 'give up' is not valid ... it's defeatism. And it will get you absolutely nothing or nowhere.


NGU

Thanks for the advice, Maddox. I'm glad you like the music, by the way!

I think that when I saw Coulter on Leno last night, a fuse metaphorically blew somewhere in my head - I just got burned out with politics.

I'm feeling better now. I just needed the night to cool down and take a break from politics. I might still keep myself from logging onto DU today - the change might do me good.
Ringo

that! When I hit that wall, I go off to one of DU's smaller groups/forums to recharge & get support, or search out some real-time play. At least it's not so 'public' as GD or GD/P, LOL!

It's a long haul, so get your regroup/recharge firmly in place for the next time - & there will be a next time - then come back & link arms. We'll be here waiting for you. :hug:

(I actually had this same conversation w/my youngest daughter not long ago. We forget, sometimes, that it took some time to learn how to get our own 'muscle' built up ... way back when! You'll both do fine - your hearts are in the right place, & THAT can't be taught!)

and addressed. Democrats don't give up. They keep fighting.

It is the republicans who take the victimhood status.

All I have to do is look at my kids, aged 12 & 13, and I have all the reason in the world to keep fighting. As long as I can draw a breath of air, I'll fight against having them grow up in a dictatorship. I owe them that much. We owe all of our future generations that much.

Yes, things look bad right now,
Yes, it's depressing,
But give up?
Not me.
Is Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy, Conyers, Feingold, etc. giving up?
Nope.
Stay with us Ringo.
It looks like it's going to be a long slog, but I have faith that we will
kick the fascists asses.

Just crawl back under the floorboards and get comfy. There's a good little wuss.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"

But his words live on, and they are as relevant now, even more so than they were then.

So to the Original Poster I would say this.

I would rather die fighting for what's right than roll over and live with what's wrong.

On your feet soldier.

ON YOUR FEET.

So I'm a wuss, huh? Tell me, then: what are you doing to help the Democrats other than preaching to the choir here? Is anything you're doing actually helping?

You don't like what I said in that post. That's fine, but don't blackball me because of one post. We're supposed to be the party that believes in varying ideas. If I was blackballed, there'd be no difference between DU and Freeper Land except for the politics.
Ringo

Buddy, your one little "GIVE UP" post on a political discussion board viewed and analyzed by men and women the world over has more than undone anything I could possibly do in a lifetime to counter it. Do you have ANY concept of how many freepers read your vapid little post and leapt up cheering?

What have I done?

Other than the large IMPEACH BUSH sticker I have on the back of my vehicle, centered and at eye level, visible as I drive throughout the greater Dallas Texas metroplex daily?

Other than the UNITED STATES AIR FORCE VETERAN cap I wear when in public to invoke comment and to assure people I've walked the walk? (Please, sir, enlighten us as to YOUR military experience.)

Other than the brochures and articles (many posted by those here who have NOT given up) I put up on public bulletin boards?

Other than the conversations I have with my clients regarding the direction our nation is going, and the man who is most responsible for this disaster?

Other than the full-sized American Flag that is attached upside down to the front of my house as a sign of a nation in extreme distress?

Other than the donations I make to this board to help keep it up and running (by the way, where's YOUR donor star?)?

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

Your brain has been royally fucked with - as have many of ours, here. Sometimes I don't know up from down - just based on this Absurdist movie set I've walked onto. FWIW, you ARE one of the good guys, though.

These Republican-types put on a good show, and have everything in place at the moment, but it can't last. There's no foundation, with "live for the moment" attitude they have towards the treasury, business, the environment, and humanity in general.

As bad as things are going to get here, (and they _ARE_ going to get bad)
BILLIONS of people throughout history have survived worse.
Much, much WORSE.

Considering the historical "human condition" as a whole,
a full-blown B*sh DICTATORSHIP would need a few generations
to actually drag us peasants down near the AVERAGE.

And I don't need to look to any ANCIENT history
to make my point. Modern history serves my purpose.

Just off the top of my head:

*1: My friend Peter's folks lived in a small town in China
during the "Cultural Revolution". To this day, even after
35 years in the USA, they will NOT say a bad word about Mao.

They saw firsthand what happened to people who DID...
and what happened to people who were suspected of being related to someone
who once lived 2 doors down from someone who did...


*2: Back in '85, when I got my first job at the shoe factory,
my supervisor "Jake" was a little old Polish dude.
He had a funny crooked walk, a twitchy, perpetually-itchy nose...
and a serial number tattoo'd on his inside forearm.
None of which he had been born with, or asked for.


*3: My friend Mi's dad had a gift for languages, and when he had
a chance in 1964 to use that gift to lift his family out
of their mud-hut poverty in China, he took it:
working as a translator for the CIA in Vietnam.
Guess how "fun" their life was after '75?

And there are many other millions of people alive today
who experienced the same or worse.
And damn few of them EVER had the time, or tools, or skills
which the average American has at their disposal.

And, knowing all that, you tell me to 'give up', to surrender unconditionally...
To the Republicans?

THESE Republicans?

To Dubya?

Are you actually telling me to 'give up' to this
pathetically halfassed cabal of soft, spoiled, FratBoy wannabe fascists,
whose coke-delerium-inspired '4th Reich' fantasies are perpetually
being kneecapped by their unfettered greed and KeystoneInkompetence?

"Give up" to these STUPID, TRANSPARENT, ideology-less, 2D spin-twisters
whose juvenile pipe-dream 'final solution global empire' ramblings
will never even get ON the goddamn drawing board because one
of them STOLE the drawing board and traded it for CRACK after their first meeting;
and who, even totalled as a group, don't possess
the 2 SECONDS worth of self-control necessary
to stop looting their own "Jackboot and BarbWire Fund" for
limo rides to hooker-parties at the Watergate?

THESE are the idiots you tell me to 'give up' to?

Sorry, friend, but I don't hardly fucking think so.

:rant:


Whenever I get really wrapped up in politics in the news (DU) I tend to really blow things out of proportion in my head, yes this country is changing fast, for the worst, but it has been for a long time. The time to be worried was when the moral majority screwed over Carter imo.

Since then their big money has changed our culture beyond recognition, there is no underground/counterculture keeping us moving forward anymore along the fringe, the Democrats honestly just don't have it anymore and are part of the problem, not that they are bad, but the odds against them and our cultural hijacking has boxed them in, we do not frame the debate, thus they are ever on the defensive.
With the internet all information is instant, some worthwhile some not. Thing is the stuff considered mainstream and credible in peoples eyes are fully in the hands of greedmongers and think-tanks, the people with lots of money know leftists are not mainly about wealth accumulation and greed/fear is so much easier to be honest.

America, for awhile at least is not and will not be progressive I hate to say, nor do I think we will be at the forefront again for a long time, as a few generations have passed in this corporate hellhole we call mainstream america.

What is it going to take? Not sure, but I know I am fed up.

The really freaky thing that makes me nervous is the fact that america has so few progressive leaders now, no heros, no ground-breaking authors/artists etc. Someone brought up Vonnegut, Now when he and the few old timers kick from the 50s/60s/70s, Now THAT is when we are up the creek, and it is coming damn soon. :scared:


Voting for repugs is a silly idea, I have about 0% confidence in the Dems either though when they blatantly are on the oppositions side. I don't like it but it seems one of those periods of history that it is probably best to hunker down, read some good books, keep the faith and learn and hone your knowledge of the world, travel too, for when society is fed up and the system somehow or another fails, we will need a lot of thoughtful caring people to move america forward again.


Fear makes a culture conservative, and fear/guilt/greed is what our opposition does best.

Hang in there, we are the good guys, and you know where the good guys usually finish.

If we were not the minority always nipping at their heels I would question what we were about anyway. It's in our nature to be the underdogs and look out for our own.

If you seek glory and huge victories then voting repug would be the way to go.

This is a great bunch here, and we all want good news and victories, But if we wait for the powers to be to throw us a bone it's going to be endless bad news.

It is up to all of us, not just Dems in office with their hands tied to keep the good ideas coming.


:toast: To DU and Skinner and all the posters who keep so many great American leaders dreams alive in these dark times.

Thanks for letting me vent too, I am frustrated also. Let's go make a better world people.

Nothing is stopping any one of us from being the new John Lennon/Frank Zappa etc etc like our icons.

History is not going to hand a better world to us, and giving up is the easy way out, no thanks.

Iraq is a disaster, Republicans going to prison(the Dukester Cunningham), and if we ever manage to get the house or senate, we may uncover massive voter fraud in the last two elections and put more in jail..

the cup is half full or empty depends on what your looking at.

will snap out of it soon.

:hug:

Already have. To surrender to Bush would be like saying "just tear the Constitution to shreds and take all my rights. I'm done using them". Thanks for the concern.
Ringo

I slept on it last night, and after some soul-searching, I'm still on the DU side of history.

Call it flip-flopping or whatever you like. Everyone gets down sometimes when they don't see much progress being made. The important thing is that I've decided to stay with the good guys - the Democrats. I won't surrender to President Dumbass. No matter how many rights he so casually takes away from us.

I'm sorry if I pissed off anyone out there. I won't apologize for posting 'Give Up'; if we're fighting for freedom, we ought to acknowledge fellow Democrats' freedom to post viewpoints with which you may not agree and may be fairly far out of the mainstream.

I suppose my reputation here is mostly shot now (In fact, I'm somewhat surprised (but pleased and relieved) that the DU moderators have allowed me to stay here). That's fine; my popularity isn't as important as the fight against tyranny.
Ringo

It's called realism. So your reputation isn't shot. Just don't let your resolve be shot.

chin up lately, myself included.

If you put me on the ignore list because of this one post, don't expect me to bow and scrape to regain your trust. If you're going to permanently ignore me because of one out-of-the-mainstream, controversial post, who needs ya? Don't let the screen door catch you on the way out.

I thought that we were the party that believed in allowing people the freedom to express a variety of ideas anyway.
Ringo

of this mis-administration.

and that includes after death- there is no god, no heaven or hell- and it's obvious by their actions that nobody in cheneyco believes in divine retribution either.

i've been waiting for justice since the ronnie raygun mis-administration.

The news had been so good for Kerry -- I remember flying out of bed and voting the minute the polls opened, like 6 or 7 am. It felt so great -- I was so happy --

By 7 pm that night I felt something had changed. By 9 pm I shut off the radio -- I KNEW it was over.

Nothing since then has made me feel optimistic AT ALL.

However, I'm not going to make it easy for them. I'll fight til the end. Period.

Then we can take our grandkids to DC one day to see the memorial for the Iraq war....with 60,000 names on it.!!...yeh right I'll fucking quit when these fuckers are standing trial !!!

just because liberals are now isolated in the minority party doesn't mean we don't have a role to play in the Republican primaries.

Gore lost the electoral college in 2000..but too many people forget that Bush won half a million popular votes less than Gore. And never forget unlike Mondale or Dukakis, that Kerry nearly defeated the incumbent Republican President.

There are a variety of ways to gain leverage in our system, but remaining mute is hardly the answer!

And it is dark indeed, darker than most even here believe. We're not going to "reform" or "elect" our way out of our current situation; this is not 5 years in the making, more fundamental changes even within us need to take place before the phoenix of progress rises again from our current ashes.

We are a society in gut-wrenching transition. Faced with an age of limits (just around the corner), reactionary global forces have ruthlessly steeled their financial fortresses while successfully paralyzing the rest of us, the "to be left behind" (unwashed masses, rascal multitude), paralyzing us with fear, with appeals to our baser natures, by breeding ignorance and apathy, by convincing most of us to sit on the couch while they rule. Their biggest fear is not Al Qaeda or Islamist militant nationalism, but us, every one of "us" who are not "them" and might come to take their privilege and advantage away from them.

Our best chance to rise up refreshed and anew, with chains of fascism and kleptocracy shaken off, is right here, in this beautiful thing called the internet. More of us connect faster to new and vitalizing ideas via the internet than any other means ever available to this sea of human brains. Each of us steps away from places like DU more firm in our values and thus closer to right action than if we stood truly alone. Like mirror neurons beating in unison, it won't be long before we're all unknowingly acting together -- and in that is transforming power, hugely transforming power.

I found the words from this 1981 work inspirational; maybe DU-land will as well (from Duane Elgin's Voluntary Simplicity: Toward a Way of Life that is Outwardly Simple, Inwardly Rich, pp 192-194):

... We are not alone in this time of change. Everyone we meet is in some way involved with his or her own personal struggle to respond to our time of challenge. Whatever our other differences may be, we are all participants in this historical rite of passage.

As individuals we are not powerless in the face of this monumental change. Opportunities for meaningful and important action are everywhere...the list is endless, since the stuff of social transformation is identical with the stuff from which our daily lives are constructed.

We are each responsible for the conduct of our lives -- and we are each unique. Therefore we are each uniquely responsible for our actions and choices in this pivotal time in human evolution. There is no one who can take our place. We each weave a singular strand in life. No one else can weave that strand for us. What we each contribute is distinct, and what we each withold is uniquely irreplaceable.

More than anything else, the outcome from this time of planetary transition will depend on the choices that we make as individuals. There are no preconditions to our choosing a revitalized path of civilizational development. There is nothing lacking. Nothing more is needed than what we already have. We require no remarkable, undiscovered technologies. We do not need heroic, larger-than-life leadership. The only requirement is that we, as individuals, choose a revitalizing future and then work in community with others to bring it to fruition. By our conscious choices we can move from alienation to community, from despair to creativity, from passivity to participation, from stagnation to learning, from cynicism to caring. We tend to think we are powerless, helpless, impotent. Yet the reality is that only we -- as individuals working in cooperation with one another -- have the power to transform our situation. Far from being helpless, we are the only source from which the necessary creativity, compassion, and will can arise. The time of civilizational change is already upon us. The autumn of the industrial era of development has already moved into winter. It is time to begin the next stage of our human journey.

Duane Elgin was talking from his intuitions of the coming age of limits -- limits to arable land, to drinkable water, of diminishing oil -- of the ecological constraints upon raw consumerism and the need to transform ourselves along equitable and sustainable lines. Very prescient, and it appears we have taken the darkest of available paths, but as this is already an overly long post, I'll leave it there (and suggest you get the book!).

So, though I have hope, it is for my future grandchildren that I hope; I'm not so confident (not at all confident) that we'll see sufficient change in our lifetimes to stave off growing darkness and struggle. But each of us is left with choice. I've made mine; may you join us in the light!

If you assume that there's no hope, you guarantee that there will be no hope. If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, there are opportunities to change things, there's a chance you may contribute to making a better world. That's your choice.
-- Noam Chomsky

You must be the change you want to see in the world.
-- Mohandas K Gandhi

Now. Or never.
-- Henry David Thoreau

(Note, this is a repeat of a post I made in February in response to a similar cry of despair.)

(He raises his sword):
What say you? It is useless? Ay, I know
But who fights ever hoping for success?
I fought for lost cause, and for fruitless quest!
You there, who are you!--You are thousands!
Ah!
I know you now, old enemies of mine!
Falsehood!
(He strikes in air with his sword):
Have at you! Ha! and Compromise!
Prejudice, Treachery!. . .
(He strikes):
Surrender, I?
Parley? No, never! You too, Folly,--you?
I know that you will lay me low at last;
Let be! Yet I fall fighting, fighting still!
(He makes passes in the air, and stops, breathless):
You strip from me the laurel and the rose!
Take all! Despite you there is yet one thing
I hold against you all, and when, to-night,
I enter Christ's fair courts, and, lowly bowed,
Sweep with doffed casque the heavens' threshold blue,
One thing is left, that, void of stain or smutch,
I bear away despite you.

not so much as to whether the Dem's can win again but that it will make a difference. Nations have been invaded under D admin's, people have been tortured under D admin's, working people were still screwed under D admin's etc etc

I don't see the powerful giving up or sharing power with the weak anytime soon, they certainly havn't so far in human history.

BUT I just have the sort of personality that means that even if I think I'll lose I'll fight anyway, better to die on your feet than live on your knees kinda thing

one party, under corporation.

Cowardice asks the question - is it safe? Expediency asks the question - is it politic?
Vanity asks the question - is it popular? But conscience asks the question - is it right?
And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular; but one must take it because it is right.
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

So regardless if the situation is futile, we still take our positions because they are right. We eat, we breathe, we act. Might as well act rightly.

Think of hardcore conservatism as a monster destroying a city. We might not be able to kill the monster yet, but we can injure it and slow it down. We can make it harder for them to accomplish what they are trying to accomplish. Slowing down hardcore conservatism--injuring the monster--is a victory in itself! It's like damage control. Of course, the ultimate goal is to win, and I think there is a strong possibility that will happen for us in November. If not, we can still slow down and injure the conservative movement in other ways. Never give up!

We kicked King George's ass 230 years ago, we kicked Hitler's ass 59 years ago, and we'll throw out the corporate slave-owner wannabes before too many more years have passed.

They had their power broken before, and they'll have it broken again.

Hopefully we won't need to resort to violence, but if we have to...we have to.

Liberty will persevere, so cheer up.

It was about 100 years before people were able to rectify the failure/betrayal of Reconstruction.

How long did dissidents in the Soviet Union and Soviet Bloc suffer persecution, were sent to gulags, exiled?

There are many other examples.

Yet people who had no reason to believe they would see their side prevail fought on in the hope that what they did would some day benefit generations to come.

I want to see us "win" but I also know it's not all about me. If I don't see us overcome, I sure hope I've done something in my lifetime that will help to inspire others after me to push on and one fine day...