We are so screwed, it isn't even funny.

There is a major split in our party, between people who are (and I will call each group by their preferred names) questioners of the official story, and those who want to promote credibility.

This is not good. We have people on either side calling the other side freepers. (Hint for both sides: our enemies use that tactic, i.e. if you question the war, you are helping the terrorists.)

That divide has probably always been there, but someone is exploiting it. I don't doubt either side is being used by someone. In fact I wouldn't be surprised (thought I have no evidence to prove it) that those who support either side of the debate are in some cases freepers promoting disharmony in our party.

I am deeply troubled by this. I think it is also occurring within the Republican party as well. One need not look any further than the recent Busby/Bilbray race to understand the divide in their party. Bilbray took the completely opposite approach to illegal immigration than the President. He won.

I am still thinking about how this will change the future, but one way or another it will change our future, radically.

9-11 or election fraud or what? :shrug:

/head explodes

kick

Shouldn't have written the Bilbray 'illegal immigration' business. Too much of a hint.

Nobody needs to exploit the divide. All that has to happen is for an issue to come along that forces the issue to the open. Then there's a debate, some sort of majority opinion is formed, and we all get along again, after leaving thousands of dead bodies festering in the streets, each marked with a tombstone.

Or not.

That it's occurring in the repub party as well might be an indication that it's a poor partisan issue, at least pending some sort of consensus in the dem party. At that point the repub split can be used, if illegal immigration stays an important election year issue, and enough votes pulled over to make a real different. (on edit: or 'difference', if you actually expect a noun.)

On the other hand, *they* can do the same thing.

First one to the finish line wins.

The Busby Bilbray race should be declared null and void. If most Democrats in SD had courage, and San Diegans overall realized how important this is, then that election would immediately be overturned.

That election and I'm sure many others are riddled in every way with fraud due to the lack of citizen oversight and the influx of the fraud producing electronic voting machines.

Those who seek to divide in any party and/or those who consistently stir up the pot are those who are destroying our Democracy.

be talking about illegal immigration right now. It's really way down the list on the problems we should be focusing on. It can wait for a better day. We should be talking about the things everyone agrees on like Chimpy must go. We have to end the Iraq war. We have to investigate what this administration did to screw up the Katrina relief effort. How are we going to have a legitimate election? These are the really crucial issues right now.

The legitimate election is tops (imho).

bush is going. Ending the iraq occupation is something we can get closer to acheiving if we get election reform and the people we dems have elected get off their ass and push for it instead of cowering and worrying about their job. If they are so worried about losing the election, then maybe the elections aren't rigged and most people believe the war is ok (otherwise, why would they worry so much???)

I think we can focus on many issues at once, that would be good project management. Hit the assholes from all sides, all at once. And we need to do it soon - in time for the elections when more americans are paying attention.

addressed now.

especially in a big tent style party where many smaller groups focus mainly on their issues and use a party that will help them in fixing those issues (and I don't mean 'use' in a bad way, just in a general practical way).

Immigration is one issue that crosses several boundaries. From jobs to human rights, from worries about social networks to what defines someone as a citizen (and hence citizen benefits).

And that is just one issue.

My thoughts on the immigration issue: I love the diversity it brings, but I also worry that just letting people rush in without a process in place that we enforce is harmful (think about the american indians, they had no immigration policy....).

In the end this goes to something even more explosive, to me: big government. And I don't mean the RW talking point about that. I mean all the red tape in a huge organization that is, at times, run poorly. Reform is the answer - and while reforming, enforcement of the laws we have in place.

We need better border patrolling - but we need just as much a system that does not take years and tons of money for those wishing to come here legally.

I would not expect Canada to let me in (I looked into it, and I don't think I could immigrate there_ and if I snuck in and was caught I am sure they would toss me out. Other countries are the same. It is just a part of being a country.

So yeah, I want to be tough on immigration. But I also want to make it easier for people to come here legally - which would make life better for them and us.

How long is it 'til America falls?"

"Not long, for most mirrors are broken."

the lack of the ability to be reflective upon ones self is missing from this thread. This isn't about THEM, it is about US.

I listened to Mr. Malloy earlier and the anger he was expressing towards fellow Democrats was amazing. I won't say if it is proper or not, but what ever causes that kind of anger must be resolved (said removed, but that is appropriate, sorry.) People shouldn't be angry like that at people on their side.

Anger and frustration are building and it is only a matter of time before it shows its ugly face to the world.

Maybe it's something only you saw.

If you listened to a word Malloy was saying, you would know that. The anger is because our country is in an extraordinary crisis, and yet establishment/corporate-owned democrats continue to smile and schmooze and cuddle with repugs like it was business as usual.

In 5 years, the foundations of our democracy have been chipped away, an ocean of debt spent on a fraud of a war, a horrible reichstag-style attack with only a cursory investigation, and all the while the poor and working classes continue to be increasingly marginalized and impoverished.

A better question is no about why there is the division, but why are so many dems still behaving as though it was 1986, not 2006 and like this was still America? If our democracy is salvageable, it is holding on by the thinnest of threads at this point...

and that's the problem. I don't want to fan the flames of the anger, I want to point it out, and make sure we know what effect it will have upon our future as a party (and as a nation in general.)

I think you noted something and it was very keen. You basically said America is dying.

What I am saying is that political instability is being manipulated by people in power, or those who will soon be, and that we should be aware of it. They are using it to deal the final blow to our country.

This "someone" could really be anyone foreign or domestic with an interest in bringing America down. It could even be people with the same goal, but are working independently of each other.

Hell it could be China or Russia. It could be al-Qaeda. It could be people in BushCo.

I'd rather that the focus of that anger not be on democrats, but when democrats put themselves in positions of legitimizing an illegal war or protecting a corrupt president, they aren't really democrats, IMO.

When the anger you speak of dies out, so does the last hope for peaceful change in this country.

It is about us. And I was trying to show that what is happening on our side is not the only division. It is happening on both sides and someone means for it to happen.

As an example, at work my engineers all have differing views on Operating Systems (and politics). I get varying answers all the time when we discuss issues.

The more people we have, the more we are different and wanting our views to be the dominant one.

this is a war of ideas, which is why I have said before we need to look at the bible and take some direction from the apostles.

They set out with an ideal - to win the hearts and change the minds of people, not to win elections or change the governments to do things their way. The main ideal being - when people agree with things they will do them without the need for laws to punish them if they don't.

This is a war of ideals. We need to find the common ideals, and preach them door to door. Leave tracts in bathrooms, 'witness' to our friends, and have a regular place where we can meet and discuss them (ala church) to keep those ideals in the hearts and minds of people.

Even then - like with churches - we will have differing denominations. Some will think they are better, some will be bigger, but they will have one thing in common - a core belief.

And what is our core belief, how is better or different than the right's, and what are we doing to press that message other than calling the rw names?

I just don't see your issue.

It's like the chicken and the egg .

All I can say is if you have a suspician and an open mind and the willingness to find the truth then people really need to focus on doing just that . You may never have the answers but you certainly will be able to position yourself and still retain a conscience .

I personally would never go out of my way to devide people for any sort of gain . All you can do is express the best option for the majority of the people if you want to get anywhere at all . This certainly is not what this government we have got now does and this you can be certain of . It's not even what the business world does unless it is for financial gain through adds aimed to convince .