What "should " be the Democratic position on illegal immigration ??

Do we agree with Bush? That there should be "guest" workers? If this issue is so important to Republicans, shouldn't it be of some importance to us also?? Many people are now guessing that this was the issue that won the race in California for Bilbray? If that is true, isn't this an issue we need to address more directly?

What should be our position? Should we crack down on our borders? Should we have a program to first try to identify every illegal immigrant? Should employers be allowed to hire "guest" workers that they know are here illegally? Should the Democrats have a position on this issue at all?

then it isn't illegal immigration anymore, is it?

Guest worker programs NEVER WORK. EVER. They are dehumanizing and undemocratic.

The Democratic position should be that hiring a worker not legally entitled to work in the US is a crime and will be punished. That's it.

... and account for many thousands of agribusiness workers. :shrug:

Various visa categories are merely the inventory of human labor as a commodity.

Msongs

can you sing?
www.msongs.com/vocalistwanted.htm

what country is dumb enough to take our Republicans off our hands?

I live on the Mexican border and have mixed emotions about the immigration problem. They cross here, and they may die here but they don't stay here. Most of our workers from Mexico are green card holders so they are legal.

the insurgents a whole batch of targets that won't be missed.

We should set the conversation. People weren't worried about immigration, but Bush started this diversion, and the Dems joined in, and now everyone thinks its some great problem that has flared up.

Our position should be "We'll address this issue after we've solved Iraq and captured Usama bin Laden--if any Republicans even remember him or 9-11." Put the Repubs on the defensive and play our game. Even if we won the immigration issue, BushCo would hit another issue, then another, until he found one that worked, and we'd always be playing catchup. We need to draw a line.

Makes a lot of sense.

"People weren't worried about immigration, but Bush started this diversion, and the Dems joined in, and now everyone thinks its some great problem that has flared up."

Tell that to the border patrol agents who have been pleading for years for the govt to send additional help to no avail. Tell it to the property owners, firefighters, police, medical workers, etcetc, who live and work on the border and know first hand the troubles caused by out of control illegal immigration...tell it to all of us who have seen what it has done or is beginning to do to our communities in terms of budgetary crises in school systems and social services programs... etc.

Bu$h jumped on this bandwagon. Where have you been?

The best response to the NeoCons I have ever heard was tonight from Thom Hartman, who was filling in for Sam Seder on the Majority Report. He explained that Bob Casey in PA may be getting his butt kicked from SANTORUM, furrchrissakes, because Casey hasn't gotten the message yet. The problem is that we are not going after illegal employers. Under the BushCo regime, only like 12 companies have been cited in the past how many years.... we stop the companies from hiring illegals, we may not "solve" the problem, but it will certainly give us the plan. Forget amnesty, forget guest workers, forget deportation. Go directly to the problem--Bush's corporate pals. Speaking of which, these companies are using stolen ID's every 3 months so that they can keep the illegal workers they have! Stolen SS numbers, stolen driver's licenses. This crap has got to stop.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

the end.

That should be the position.

If you cannot even police your own border, then there can be no immigration reform.

From the capitalist perspective, nothing should be done because they create excess labor supply relative to demand. This means you can pay, on average, less money than you would if there were no illegal immigrants for the same products and services. The presence of illegal immigrants in any market automatically acts as a depressing force on wages.

Me? I say let them stay and extend labor protections to these illegal immigrants once they have been identified. A program will have to be set up to do this. If illegal immigrants have to be paid minimum wage and are able to get benefits the same as any US citizen, it will make them no different than an American worker.

immigrant workers. Raise the quotas so that these workers can come in legally and get a legitimate social security card. Then the workers can enter the work force and join unions and get benefits. It makes it very hard for employers to exploit legal immigrant labor like they do the unauthorized work force.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/2006poll.html

I think the dems would be wise to go with it. They would probably even steal my husband away from the Republican party if they did.

hypocrisy.

I believe that the grand majority of Mexican and Central American people are very honest and have a lot of self dignity and humility. I believe that others stay honest because of the threat of discovery and deportation. I've not met any dishonest ones or criminals, though most people rant as if they were are criminals.

I was taught that they like other immigrant groups are getting a chance at progressing and survival just like our parents or grandparents.

I believe it when most people say they are paying taxes. I tend not to believe that they take and don't give.

I really don't know the extent that any one suffers because they are here.

The problem is that industry wants them. And all the politicians, mostly the Republicans are giving us and showing us how hypocritical they are.

We should keep pointing out that they are stuck between their have-mores and their have-less (quite bigoted) voting bases. We should shout out that everyone is in a stuck position and someone has to start telling the truth.

It is perfectly fine to change our immigration policies to keep people out, but a hundred different issue are involved. There used to be plenty of jobs - now there is outsourcing and cheating employees and the attempts to kill th eunions. Now there is ridiculous health and insurnace issues.

There are hundreds of things to be angry about and some ar taking it out on good people.

This is a psychological, philosophical, sociological, political problem farce-problem. The real problem is with our leaders and the barons they perform for.

The end result is bigotry and a new target audience for anger.

In the meantime - we are not being the generous and welcoming people that people brag about. We are hypocrites.

It's a stuck position. Resolution can only come after some admissions.

Then pressure Mexico to give its people living wages, healthcare and a hope in the future in Mexico. Substitute El Salvador and Hondorus and Guatamala at will.

here in southern California we are definitly becomeing overwhelmed. Tonight I just returned from my 17 year olds graduation from highschool. 94 percent were hispanic (based on what the senior speaker quoted, who was himself hispanic). All of my kids friends are hispanic, and they are all great kids. But none of their parents speak english, I know because my wife has been president of the PTA and band boosters for the past 7 years (counting my oldest's time at the school). Maybe 1 percent vollanter to help with the meetings, football games, etc. They do not speak english and have no interest in learning it. For the past 8 years my wife has been fighting for more funds from the state and Fed's to help all of the school, but because of the lack of interest from the majority of parents she was fighting a losing battle.

I posted on this board 3 years ago that John Kerry should speak out about this because it is an issue that is affecting people like me. I was accused of pandering, selling out, being a freeper. Either we have laws or we don't. If we have them how can we just ignore them? In my opinoun our position should be enforce the laws on the books. I know at this stage it would be harsh on a lot of people, and I don't have any answers for all of the problems it would cause.

But had JFK proposed it in 2004 even Diebold could not have changed his victory.

Each Immigrant shall be dealt with using the laws of their home country.
Example: It is a felony to be in Mexico illegally. If a Mexican is discovered here illegally then apply the Mexican Law and Punishment for said offense.

This tactic could be used again and again with other countries. For example, with China they charge high tariffs on certain imports. We should mirror their tariffs on imports from China.

If a country puts impediments to our products, financial transactions etc. we should do the same to them.

I first read about this in a Tom Clancy book years ago. It made sense then and it makes sense now. Imagine if we put the holds on goods coming into the country from Japan as they do to our goods on their docks. (2-4weeks is the norm in Japan for imports from the US) How fast would they change their stance?


Edited for spelling

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

foreign countries doing the same to US citizens? For instance, it is a capital offense in most of the US to commit a homicide while engaging in another felonious act, would we allow, say, Peru to execute our citizens based on this US law, while not applying the same laws to their own citizens? In Afghanistan, for instance, it is a capital offense to commmit Adultery, should we apply the same law to Afghans in the US? Who picks which laws will be followed, and which ignored for violating the Constitutional protection against 'cruel and unusual punishment'? The Constitution plainly applies to everyone inside the territory of the United States (since an exception was needed to except Slaves from the provisions, and no one else, we can assume that the founders intended the document to apply to everyone, except those specifically excepted.) you cannot involuntarily forfeit your constitutional rights without due process, it's one of the things that makes the US different from much of the rest of the world, the thing that makes us special. Why give that up?

Extraterritoriality is a recipie for disaster.

The point was to point out the hypocrisy in a countries policies toward another country. Every country does it, but it is hypocritical to ask for rights you don't give others.

Any idea taking to absolutes always falls apart.

I was more speaking along the lines of immigration laws, trade laws and access to markets.

Why is it that Mexico harshly treats illegal immigrants in their country, yet they want Mexicans to have unimpeded access to come to the USA? Does that make any sense?

Who would decided these things......the Legislative and Executive branch of the federal government.

1) Pass a law that states the exact immigration laws of Mexico and state that it only applies to immigrants who did not enter the USA via legal means and who are Mexican citizens. This would pass muster with any SCOTUS as it clearly is a US COnstitutionally passed law and does offer equal protection under the law. Especially if you passed a lwa like this one for every country on the face of the Earth. No one could argue that all are treated differently since all countries home illegal immigration laws would be ensconced into law.


2) In China, no foreign investment is allowed without a Chinese majority stakeholder. So why should we allow Chinese citizens to invest in our asserts without putting the same terms that are put on us.

As for committing homicide in a foreign country while committing another felony....well I have no sympathy (as if we need any help in the Ugly American department).
As for committing Adultery.....more harm has come from Adultery than from many other criminal acts a person can commit. In this country everyone does it, but that doesn't make it ok or right. No I don't think it should be a punishable offense, but I can't judge someone else's cultures or laws.

We make all these silly treaties, complicated negotiations with countries, when we could just say, if you charge a tariff on a product then we reciprocate exactly the same. If you want us to accept your immigrants, then you must accept ours under the same rules. We already do this type of thing with travel to foreign countries without a Visa. You don;t require our people to have a Visa, then we don't require your people to have a Visa.

It is highly hypocritical for a person to apply one standard to others and want another standard for themselves.

the US should lower itself to the standard of Mexico and China? please.

How is it lowering our standards to do unto others as they do to us? SO it is ok for Mexico to make illegal immigration a felony, but we must let the poor Mexicans into the country so they won;t starve. I don't think it is starvation that is the reason they are coming. I think this is the reason......I can make $2 a day on this side of the border or I can go across the border and make $70 dollars a day. It is pure economics. What really chaps my hide is that they come take jobs that Americans would do for a decent wage and then have the chops to wave the Mexican Flag in our faces. How long would an American last in Mexico walking around waving a US flag?

If you don't believe immigration is depressing wages in this country let me give you facts from my own life.
1) I went to school for 5 years and got a Mechanical Engineering Degree and an MBA at a cost of 150,000 USD and worked a full time job and raised a family.

2) Every company I have worked for has closed, been sold or been through horrible times.

3) I branch out into consulting to try and make some money to pay for my education. I could get a rate of $125/hr + expenses in 1999. That sounds like a lot, but when you factor in a company does not need my services for more than 1-9 months and then I am dead-weight on a company, plus you usually can only count on ~1100 hours of employment a year since it is contract work and the weekly travel (12-16 hours a week commute at either end of the week.) and the extra expenses of paying the company half of FICO taxes, carrying 5-25 million in liability insurance, private medical insurance and the carrying expenses of the expenses for 3-4 months before you get the money from the company and it works out to be a net of around a 65,000 a year salary job.

4) H1-B Visa Allotment goes up in 2000.

5) Now I am seeing contracts for 75 and hour including expenses. Just the weekly travel expenses run around 30-40 per hour. Why? Because Engineers from India with a free education, will move to the work site from India, hole up 4-6 to an apartment for 40-50 an hour.

I have seen the future and it looks like we will all live 10-20 to a house and work for scraps. No matter what your skills are! I have advised my children and anyone who would listen to forget College and learn a "service" trade as it is cheaper and in the long haul, you will come out better as you won't be 200k in the hole starting out in life.

If a skill is computer based and almost all college level jobs are, it can be shipped off, in-shored etc.

Heck even if we stopped outsourcing, raised the min. wage to $20 and hour, taxed the hell out of corps, stripped them of their "person-hood" all it would do is make all the businesses pick up and move to another country. Hey not a bad idea. We would go through a depression for a while, but then it would be back to the mom & pop businesses. We wouldn't have any "modern" conveniences that require complex multi-step, multi-supplier processes, but hey we would not work for the man anymore either.

Now here is the real bummer....The Indians will tell you that they can come here make 40-50 an hour, save on expenses by piling into an apartment and being cheap and in 5-7 years, they can go home and retire for life debt free, with money in the bank and servants in their house. In other words they take bread out of my mouth and yet they don;t even spend the majority of the money they make here in the states.

Maybe we should charge an entrance tax for those with free educations. We could tag it to the degree they hold. You have an Engineering degree and an MBA...that will be 1125k to come into the country and work.

I don't know why everyone keeps dancing around this issue.

Waving steady jobs and a $3/hr. salary in front of a dirt poor immigrant is the exact reason why they'll risk everything to get to the US and stay as long as possible.

/rant off

They want a better life and we should be happy to provide.

They're violating our laws. That is wrong, whatever the best solution turns out to be.

Do you let everyone in and swamp the boat and we all drown or do you say, "I'm sorry you can't get in so the rest may live"? You can't argue that we have enough jobs in this country to provide for everyone in the world.

I have a friend who has been out of work for six months. He lost his construction job since he couldn't speak Spanish and also wouldn't accept a pay cut to minimum wage. He has 3 children and a wife.

He went to the MS Gulf Coast to do construction\clean-up work and after working for a month was let go as the Immigrants would work for less. People say their are jobs Americans won't do.....my brother-in-law is a grave digger, I have another friend who digs up septic tanks and cleans and fixes them.

I am all for LEGAL immigration! If you can't obey the laws in the USA when you are not even a citizen, then get the hell out! I have travelled to many countries on my journey as an Engineer and I have not once broken any laws while in a foreign country. I sure wouldn;t expect any sympathy for my situation from our embassies overseas.

How do you expect half these people to understand you?;-)

We have a lot of problems in this country and I think it stems from the fact of the post WWII era. SInce we were the only power left with an intact industrial base, we had good times for a generation or two while the rest of the industrialized countries rebuilt. Now since we sat on our laurels for those decades, we are hurting.

Imagine if we had as a country pushed the envelope for the 20-30 years it took to rebuild Europe and Asia how far ahead we would have been in technology, transportation etc at this point in time.

Personally, I believe we need to read our forefathers words and withdraw back inside our borders, tell the rest of the world don;t call us the next time some despot runs your country over.

We have spent trillions "defending" Europe and Asia, protecting the shipping lanes etc and that allows the rest of the "Industrialized" World to skimp on defense spending. I say we send them a bill for the "protection" and the Marshall plan, with interest.

We have no friends in this world. I do admire one thing about other countries...They are out for their own self-interest and couldn't give a damn about antoher countries plight. They may give lip service to the poor, genocide etc in another country, but it is just crap. They take care of their own people better too, since they don;t give the farm away at every turn.




:toast:

Just like the "gay marriage" non-issue.

Just like the "flagburnig" non-issue.

Just like the "cut and run" non-issue.

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken

that doesn't keep it from being an effective political issue...