Democrats are in Danger of Annihilation

Whenever they call ordinary republicans "pugs" or "repukes"/"repugs"

Whenever they rant and rave against someone for being moderate or indepenent or centrist

Whenever they throw around words like "fascist" as if such words were games

Whenever they oversimplify and create a straw-man to attack their opponents

Whenever they push controversial issues and loose sight of bigger problems they deal with

Whenever rhetoric is more important than plain talk and solving real problems

Whenever they talk down to ordinary people or people who disagree

Whenever they have a patronizing attitude toward 'joe six pack'

Whenever they don't even care about this stuff

...doesn't even figure into your scenario for annihilation?

:eyes:



How do you explain the "Republicans" doing the exact same thing and becoming a majority party?

And I disagree that many dems do most of the things you describe, speaking of strawmen...

I didn't say most dems did it.

I said when dems do it, it hurts them.

Golly gee. Wait until you see what the repubs offer for an alternative.

It's funny how the same ideas, put in less dangerous tone, weren't interesting to people.

Then it bothered me that people didn't see the problem.

So I wanted to convey there was a serious problem.

My wording was perhaps too heavy on style and not exactly what I would have wanted to convey.

how much the DLC sucks!

Stand up for what is right, even if you are standing alone.

That would make us "bad." And, you know, subject to annihiliation!

Moonbat, DUmmies, Lie-berals, deathocrats, DemRats, Hitlery, KKKlintoon, etc. etc. etc.

calls guys like Rumsfeld an' Cheney "Repubelickin's". That always gets a big laugh. An' the biggest laughs come from the guys what voted for Reagan. Twice! Boy! Them guys sure used ta' love all that tough talk from the Republicans. And it's funny ta' think that some of them union guys used ta' vote straight-ticket for the Democrats!

But those guys stopped bustin' Hillary's chops an' moved on ta' the big trouble-makers some time after they found out our troops was sent ta' Iraq for lies. Johnny Kowzlowski don't like that his grandkid's there, the kid's in a safer place than most, but Johnny and his gang don't like it one bit. They worry like hell about all the kids.

They still like the tough talk. we still don't even remember half of each others real names, we been callin' each other names for so long!

Beer and laughs is what cuts the pain when a guys been two-timed. If its by a gal or a Party, it don't matter. Still helps. That's the way guys are sometimes.

Disclaimer: this is a semi-fictional SCRIPT, just like the OP.

Stuff like Cheney telling Leahy to go FUCK HIMSELF on gov't property and such like...

And I'm not the only Democrat in the world who feels that way.

They're not winning on the merits.

It's fucking fascism....pure and simple.

(If it walks like a duck....)

...and repukes are lower than maggot shit!

If you can't talk respectfully to a conservative next door, you can't claim to be about representing the majority in a democratic republic.

Most of them are actually reachable on a one to one basis, in my experience. Especially with Bush's popularity in the toilet.

I've been able to do it more often than I thought I would be able to, so it's disheartening to see terms like 'repuke' etc., here.

though i disagree they are the majority. and when people are wrong they must hear the truth.

now, try showing a little respect for people who disagree with you.

nt

My point is if you want to be self-righteous Democrat, those things make you loose any moral clout you might once have had.

One I'm not buying.

Man, you want to talk about the shit that drives ME crazy- that's gotta be near the top of the list.

myself included who have a hard time with vowels. I could read novels by the age of 6, but I can't spell worth a damn.

It still drives me buggy.

Interestingly enough, I seem to have trouble with words that have two consonants in 'em- as well as that whole i before e thing. But I usually try extremely hard to make sure the stuff I put out is properly spelled English before I hit "post".


I might have displayed a little more patience with the OP if it wasn't such a pious, condescending lecture.

I dont think too many moderates look to professed Liberal message boards for news & views...

If DEMS were on TV saying this stuff, you might have a point...

or goddless?

Maybe it's time to sink to their level.

1. They lied about Iraq
2. They outed a CIA agent
3. They violated the law by illegal wire taps without going threw the FISA court
4. There is no separation of powers
5. They have infiltrated the MSM
6. Corporate lobbyists DO control the government, and that is what Fascism is all about

Unless you are reactionary YOU WILL NOT GET ANYONE'S attention. There are no rules in street fighting, and the swift pukes should have taught us that

We are going to be labelled as reactionary either way. Example, if you are not for the war you are against the troops, if you don't support the president you are unamerican.

If you haven't noticed THEIR reactionary style has been winning them elections...

1-5 was correct, 6 was partly correct and partly very debatable.

>> Unless you are reactionary YOU WILL NOT GET ANYONE'S attention. There are no rules in street fighting, and the swift pukes should have taught us that

Again, your party deserves to loose if the message is 'conservatives are repukes'

>> We are going to be labelled as reactionary either way.

Well don't make it true, then.

>> If you haven't noticed THEIR reactionary style has been winning them elections...

But if Democrats won using their reactionary style, it would STILL hurt the country, and I would stop voting for them, period.

because nice guys don't come in first

Do any of us actually LISTEN to Ann Coulter's points when she name calls? No. We just freeze her out.

If we name call, that's what will happen to us, too. The best way to talk to a conservative is to LISTEN. Wait for an opening, and then carefully step in. Don't make them slam the door in your face. Listen to them, really listen. The next thing you know, they're listening to you, and you're actually having a conversation.

:hi:

...is what, exactly?

Secondly, focus on solving serious problems and talk clearly about it instead of throwing around nonsense.

Issues haven't won any elections lately, personalities have.

We would be lucky if this election hinges on issues, because the Republicans have nothing on issues. They have scare tactics and smear campaigns. But at least 30% of the population still think that Bush is a "good Christian" and therefore worthy of their votes. If the Dems don't watch out, we'll once again lose because the Repubs are the "good guys."

and the media won't print or air them, and when they do, they do with a condescending attitude.

stolen ballots, misplaced registrations, faulty electronic voting machines, uncounted provisional ballots, etc.

As to your other point, I don't think name calling is an effective tactic. Does Ann Coulter change any minds with her vile tongue?

What we need, urgently, are persuasive truth-tellers -- like Martin Luther King. And good listeners -- like Bill Clinton. And effective fighters -- like Paul Wellstone and Ted Kennedy.

We do need to fight back. But we don't need to match slime for slime, because -- unlike the Bushies -- we can attack with the truth.

Quite a number of my good friends are very conservative. While I may be their "token liberal," I have found that there are two things hindering the democratic party: 1) people are set in their political and religious convictions and are totally unwilling to change and 2) They don't want to hear what you have to say no matter how you say it.

Conservatives will vote for democrats only if the democrat happens to agree with the conservative (not the other way around) and the republican running for the office isn't "worthy" enough. Political races aren't about getting votes, they're about energizing people who would already vote for you enough to get them to go out and vote!

And do you know what I get in return? Name-calling and death threats.

It's useless, carl. Utterly useless.

getting in the way.

That's my experience.

What were you trying to say? And how patronizing was it?

...honest, sincere, and straight from the heart.

And you know how that is perceived, carl? As weakness, that's how.

Despite my thin skin, I'll do my best to overlook your implication that I have ever been either insincere or patronizing. When I say something, I say what I mean, and mean what I say. You don't even need to know me to know that -- do your homework and look up my posts for the past four years, and you may get a feel for the way I so very stupidly have laid my soul bare, repeatedly, and have been stomped on, because I was too naive to realize I was being set up.

Now, imagine similar conflicts with people who aren't even supposed to be on "my" side, and perhaps you can imagine how totally fucked over I've been by RWers just itching to burn a silly liberal.

I've been fucked over by my own family, carl. I no longer care to waste my time or energy on people who patronize me.


On edit: Typo

I'm talking about people who call them 'repukes' and who are patronizing.

I know there are hard asses out there. People can be mean, don't want to be decent, I know.

I'm not complaining about ALL of DU, or all of the Democratic Party, but I am concerned about some of the stuff that I saw recently on these forums.

given the fact that she was quite sincere and unpatronizing in her response to you. I don't detect even a trace of one. Peeeh-ewe! Something really stinks here. Self righteous? Yep, that I believe.

Oh, and by the way, PAHLEEZE... It's LOSE, not LOOSE! :grr:

I shouldn't have judged saphocrat by other people here who apparently don't want to discuss the things I mentioned in the first post at all.

:eyes:

We are just so relentless in our attacks on them via our all-powerful state-run media... :eyes:


Oh, and on a personal level, we're always just scoffing at them in our Birkenstocks while we sip tall lattes at Starbucks before we hop into our spiffy new hybrids to go to the next wine tasting...

:eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:

Shouldn't you have used we instead?

We is DU to me. They are those, repub and dem, who are lost in their ways.

I hope that was the definition of the OP also.

:shrug:

So tartar sauce goes well with them

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And stop calling them repukes! It hurts their, er, someones feelings! :sarcasm:

My edit:

>> this is, IN FACT, a state, run by corrupt, thieving, lying, mercenary, warmongering, murdering thugs who think only of their own bank accounts, never, EVER dealing with controversial but insignificant issues like women's reproductive rights (after all, we are ONLY slightly more than half the population, but who cares?)and never, ever deal with joe sixpack (because, of course, the pugs do such a fine job of reaching out to him)

I agree with your assessment of the Bush Administration on everything except for that small section, and I'm very concerned about how America could become fascist or a police state, and I don't think simple-minded reactionary nonsense on the more reactionary left helps the Democrats handle the problems all that well.

If they are 'repukes' then are you dehumanizing and scapegoating some neighbor of yours, someone who you MIGHT be able to reach, if you could stop dehumanizing and scapegoating them?

my own way. Unless you deal daily with the likes of dobson, haggard, allard, tancredo, musgrave, and the whole lot of these right-wing loons, you haven't got a frigging clue.

by the way, who appointed you arbiter of the platform and behaviour of all the dems?

He isn't. Do you seriously think everyone who voted for Bush is Dobson or Fallwell?

Then you are deluded.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

it will just involve a meaningless counter-argument. Some people just have to get all up in your business and tell you how to live.

I didn't MAKE anyone live any damn way at all.

I DID express an opinion.

Whether the opinion was welcome or not, doesn't make me a busy body. This is a discussion board.

do. That's really to bad you don't like people saying Repuke etc, I'm sure it will lead to the Dems, how did you put it, annihilation? Seems like you just don't like the 1st Amendment very much.

Frankly, it IS talk like that, that alienates moderates and independents and (gasp) even democrats.

The idea that an opinion like mine means that I am against the first amendment, is silly.

It's stupid frankly.

You really have a one track mind. Sad.

1) it is already the perception of many that Democrats are off-base on issues of morality and defense

2) it is already the perception that many Democrats are elitist and patronizing toward 'joe sixpack'

3) it is already the perception that many Democrats scream 'fascist' like the boy who cried wolf

4) it is already the perception that many Democrats are unwilling to respect or listen to conservatives and are just extreme and unwilling to compromise

IT DOESN'T HELP

When that perception is fostered, in public.

And it certainly doesn't help when in private such perceptions are ignored.

And it's not good at all when there is some truth to it and no one seems to care because ALL the fault is the Republicans, AS IF the left couldn't alienate people ON ITS OWN, TOO.

Dems have a huge chance at taking Congress back this year, calling the opposition Repukes will have very little effect. Unless the MSM starts calling them Repukes and labels it to Dems, well I'm just not buying what you're selling.

I live with Rednecks galore, most of my relatives vote for Bush (those that vote) and I know the difference between them and a Repuke like Ann Coulter. I've had hours of conversations with them and other RWingers. I don't live in this black&white world you sadly live in Carl. Sorry.

But other DUers ARE in a black-white world, and THAT's part of what I'm complaining about.

FINALLY. Yeah, there are some DUrs who do live in a black&white world Carl. That is not the scary thing IMO. What scares me is that a huge portion of the population in America live in a black&white world. One that links Saddam to 911 or that anyone would believe we knew there were WMDs in Iraq. It is dangerous, dangerous stuff and we need to address it and not the petty stuff (just my opinion) like name calling. Why don't we stop all the violence and killing, bring back civility and there would be no need for curse words.

and demogoguery fuels reactionary currents in the culture, AND that kind of culture favors the nastiest elements of the right and extremes of all kinds, so it just contributes to the decline of political culture.

Harsh challenges are one thing. But 'repuke' is another. And empty rhetoric and ideological nonsense, are too dangerous.

I believe you are the one dealing in absolutes. Your entire OP is a display of two-dimensional thinking and drawing of conclusions without a shred of evidence.
The Professor

Everything I said that was a potential harmful problem, is a potential harmful problem.

"annihilate" well, it's a word, it's a word that says something is destructive.

ain't doin' such a good job. Like only 23% approve, or somethin' like that.

I can tell you this, if the Democrats start talking jobs full time, that'll blow whats left of the whole elite crap out a' the way like the day after when ya' got a beer and taco hangover.

I'll tell ya', there's nothin' more elite than a bunch of rich clowns tellin' us ta' go ta' war, who ain't even gone ta' war themself, and then when they lie about it all, tell us we're wrong and full a' shit for being worried and mad.

Ya' start callin' a sorry draft-dodger like Cheney a elite millionare over and over, and give all the details with a wise-crack tossed-in, and that's gonna stick.

by the religious right. I suggest you read the book American Theocrcy by Kevin Phillips to get a clear idea what we are up against

We on Du have been yelling about things for some time, and rightly so. Where are the people we employ at on this whole thing??

The problem is, that dems (in general) have been cowering in a corner -or as you might point out, sitting quietly in a corner. Why??

We pay them well, we employ them, and yet they let bush and crew get away with murder. So how are they representing us??

what do you consider to be the "controversial" issues that the Democrats shouldn't push, and what are the "bigger problems"?

(warning: this could get you flamed. Since I asked, I will try to be civil. Promise!)

I won't be bullied by a threat of flaming. I could care less.

Standing firmly against torture, standing firmly for accountability and oversight of the police agencies/pentagon, getting a better economic safety net and health care for all people, improving the education system, and effective laws against harassment and bullying of anyone, are very important issues.

Other issues are further down on the list.

But I wish to know exactly what issues you think the Democratic Party shouldn't Push- it would also be great to know your reasoning. I was simply saying that there *are* people who will flame you- most likely no matter what you decide isn't important. If you don't want to tell me, then I will have to guess. If you would answer, or even PM me, perhaps you could take the time to explain why each issue shouldn't be on the party line.

Where moderation is scoffed at instead of taken as a first step, where a single issue becomes more important than other issues (like standing firmly against torture, getting out of Iraq, economy, schools, etc.)

Things like gay marrriage, schools, the environment, the economy, getting out of Iraq- these are all single issue things, but they seem to be what motivates the American people. I don't think we're going to change anyone's minds- but the Democratic party could do a bit more to energize the votes it would already have... There are a lot of people who don't vote, but would vote for us in an instant. If we can bring out as many single-issue voters like these as we can, I think we not only have a good chance in the next election, but we could turn around voter-turnout numbers.

So all the other single interest voters really will go to hell with the rest of us if they are that stupid, all of them.

While torture carried out by the troops is a major problem, I'm not sure its as damning as you think. While the world will view us differently (worse), it wasn't our torturing that caused 9/11 or the war in Iraq. It was our shortsightedness. Think about it: we trained Osama Bin Laden to fight the Russians with terrorist tactics. We gave Sadam chemical weapons and more! All these things are just coming back to bite us in the ass. And while torturing will too, its a lot harder to get people out voting over it. After all, many people back the death penalty, and what is that but another form of torture?

(Ps. Goodnight, it is 3:18AM here, and I must sleep)

I don't care if it's Deshowitz or Sam Harris, they can be non-Christian, afraid of the religious right all they want, they are moral weaklings, I hate to use the word 'moral' even to combine it with 'weakling' on them.

Bullying, harassment of women and homosexuals and poor people, the nasty culture of humiliation, it all sucks, it all brings down the country.

And reactionaries WIN with our culture, reactionaries know exactly what to do with it, fascists, stalinists, etc.

We don't call ordinary Republicans that, only the ones who act like thugs, or who say things that make us want to :puke:



This generally occurs where "moderate, independent or centrist" involves toeing the Republican line, praising Bush**, etc,
since according to this Faux framing, Bush** is the "center", and the moderate, centrist, and "independent" course is
to agree with him in all things.



Bush** has been throwing around "signing statements" and treating the constitution like a "scrap of paper".
The robber barons and the fundies have bought the government. They own the news, the churches, and the voting machinez.
If it quacks like a duck…



Seems to me that's what you're doing.



So you would have us throw gays to the lions and women to the back-alley abortion butchers. The "moderate" position.

If this is NOT what you had in mind, please specify which controversial issues you wish the Party to cave in on.



Whose problems are not "real"?




You are certainly attempting to talk down to us here.



You used that term, I didn't. I notice that most who do use it are trying to get the party to be more accomodating to the bigots.



If we didn't care, we wouldn't be here.

n/t

wonder why???

* The Iraq War, which is opposed by about 2/3 of the people in this country?

* A national medical plan that would put the USA equal to every single other first world country on the planet?

* The stealing of elections like in OH and FL and other places both in 2000 and 2004?

* How about global warming, that not a single published climatological paper among thousands disputes?

Do you mean these controversial issues?

While I beleive firmly in global warming, I would like to point out that there are many hundreds of climatological papers disputing it. And most- if not all- are based in solid evidence (Ie: truth, but not the whole truth).

NOT ONE disputed global warming, nor that the warming was caused by the activities of man.

The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change

I presume that you will soon provide citations for those hundreds of papers you mention. Please only include those in refereed journals. No others matter.

Yeah, the tin foil hats on both sides keep life interesting but Annihilation???

There are a lot of people who are not reached by the Democratic Party.

On DU there are cetainly some attitudes that are an example of why.

I could take you seriously. - The fact that you started with such a bizarre position doesn't make it very easy. -- the very idea a few wild hairs in the Democrat party are going to drag the ENTIRE party down the friggin drain, ---- that a few "fascists" here and "Repugs" there are going run moderate Republicans into Ann Coulter's arms is just so hysterical.

The fact you do not seem to recognize the VAST MAJORITY of DU posters -- let alone the party in general --- aren't anything like your characterization --- well, let's just say I'm a little suspicious. LOL :)

And the 'type' I'm talking about does exist, it's just good to raise a warning I think.

That those kinds of things don't help Democrats, and can be serious issues.

when a Democrat candidate - or Olbermann type pundits - start blanketing the airwaves calling the average southerner a "repug" get back to me. I'd be more than happy in joining you in condemning that person and relegating them to "moonbatblogforum.com" so to speak.

A frustrated Joe Schmoe venting on DU isn't likely to put a dent in the vote tallies. Painting all Democrats as "moonbats" will do more harm than they will. IMHO of course.

to me, though. And I think our country IS in moral decline, and the Bush Administration is ONE part of the glaring evidence of moral decline in the country.

Many democrats are the other part of the glaring evidence.

Bully-culture is what it is, it has no moral high ground, it deserves the criticism it gets, and I feel that way about people who say they agree with my politics, and also about those who are very vocal in disagreement.

I just don't want to give free passes to people who agree with me.

and cussed out the authorities. If you think sitting calmly with your hands folded in your lap saying please and thank you while the US attorney general refuses to enforce election law - thereby assuring the populace no longer has a voice of any kind.... well more power to you.

I don't see any evidence of enough firmness of character to claim you are like Jesus

you actually think you are qualified to judge anyone's character here other than your own??

That about clears it all up for me. ROFL. :)

Welcome to ignore. LOL

I'm sure many would find it quite strange if you or I claimed to have the character of Jesus, a bit presumptuous.

Again, if you can't see that, it illustrates why the left can alienate so many people.

Shish.

Hey, got the discussion going. A little hyperbole can wake people up.

But demeaning republicans and either underestimating them or dehumanizing them, is folly.

and rant for all of DU to see. You think people here are to stupid to figure out who is a moran or a neocon, or a repuke? You really think we all live in this myopic world you insist exists? The only folly I see here is this thread, but it is a public forum so let er rip!

Come Rex we have some ANNIHILATING to do! By any means baby!!

Something about Democrats and annihilation in the same sentence, just kinda sets the tone.

Oh well...


ON TO THE REVOLUTION, BINKA!

:evilgrin:

You don't change people's minds by putting them on the defensive -- which is what name calling does.

I know this is just a message board, a way that some people let off steam. I've been assuming that most of the name-calling etc. that I see here doesn't carry over into how we conduct ourselves in our real lives -- isn't how we'd talk to someone face-to-face.

But sometimes I've wondered.

(And, Carl, for what it's worth, I've never been able to type the word "Repuke" either. Just never felt comfortable.)

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

When I have an opinion about something suddenly it's a tag team?

Better put your tinfoil hat on.

And I do not do tinfoil I prefer Kangol hats myself. Ciao!

My treat. (You can thank me later.)

Follow the link if you dare . . .

http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

What if he had a history of being (ugh) a Republican? Would it make any difference?

Sometimes I'm afraid our party is in danger of P.C. ing itself out of business. I'm hoping we can figure out a way to be the party with the big tent again -- where we don't expect everybody to toe the line on every issue. Where compromise isn't a dirty word.

Because I'm sure sick of being the minority party.

If a calm please and thank you helps you and Carl reach a few then more power to ya'll. No one is condemning that and there's a place for that. Claiming there's no place for the royally pissed off folks with "Bushit" stickers on their car and a "bushitler" sign in the trunk is just ridiculous - IMHO. Like I said in another post - Jesus reached quite a few by basically telling the authorities to go F themselves and having a complete hissy in the middle of the most sacred place on the planet.

I'm offended at the comparison, frankly.

But I don't have a problem with Bushit stickers.

It's the 'repuke' thing, someone who voted Republican who wants to consider Democrats now, sees 'repuke' and re-thinks whether they should just stay home or vote for another republican and hope.

And acting like Jesus would say 'repuke' on this board, is a bit presumptuous, and a lot of religious people would find that insulting.

If you don't know that, well that's another reason why many get alienated by the left.

I've posted Republicrat and Democritan sometimes, when it seemed too many politicians were the same, and I've tended to rail against Limbaugh Fallwell and Robertson as immoral people, as authoritarians, as part of the great evil facing our country.

I do not mistake my nextdoor neighbors for those politicians and religious-right demagogues, unless they make it clear to me that they are like that themselves, and even then I'd prefer to offer a reasonable disagreement to them instead of ideological garbage, to see if it can become respectful.

Clear talk, facts, can be very harsh, very direct, very biting.

There really isn't any need to trash-talk and demonize people who are misinformed, confused, mistaken, or who otherwise might be reached.

The mere suggestion of THINKING about some things, just leads to mindless buzzwords, slogans, and defenses that DON'T WORK even for me, a registered Democrat who intends to vote for all Democrats next election.

Now, if something seems to have holes in it to someone like me, if something seems like a cheap shot or simplistic or just rhetorical to me, and I'm completely against Bush, let me tell you, lots of people who are upset at Bush, may not vote against him, may not want to vote Democrat, and they are going to be a bit more critical than I am.

I know there are bigots and people who are just reactionary, don't think, don't want to treat Democrats like people. We can walk away from them, they can't be catered to, if they want to be reasonable and listen sometime, well great, but until then, no point catering to them.

But there are others, and some of them are 'gasp' against schoolyard bullying of homosexuals, BUT are not for gay marriage. Or 'gasp' they are against torture at Abu Ghraib BUT they aren't total peacenicks.

They are REPTILES. There is no fucking reasoning with a motherfucking alligator it has one intent and that is to EAT you. I say fuck the nicey poo. Take them out. BASTA!

But if they disagree, they may or may not be reachable.

Even if they aren't reachable, they may not be an asshole to you.

The ones that are nasty, harrassing, and violent, can't be reached, I agree.

If that is what you are trying to say.
We have to have integrity, regardless if the other side has none.

However, sometimes people just get plain mad with all of the crap that has gone on. So please allow some of us, every now and then, to blow off a little steam. As long as it is an exception to the rule and not the rule, I see no problem in that.

Try living here (in Texas) RED Country where things are a little different. I think you see other's viewpoints better if you were to experience being on the losing end of argument for the last twenty years in these places. We have been vilified, cussed, belittled, made the butts of jokes, (and worse) you would understand a lot more if you had been in our shoes here. It is mean down here, liberal is a cuss word to these people.

We are mad and with good reason. You may have valid points, but so do some of the others. Come on down and visit me for a week and let me show you around, it will be a real eye opener.

Granted my perceptions were:

a) frustrated that some of these points that are at least worth considering, when said in milder, nicer, less startling form, don't seem to go far on DU sometimes

b) frustrated that some reachable people were alienated, but I know some are reachable.

c) tired of simplistic all-or-nothing rhetoric from some on other threads

d) personally tired and stressed for entirely different reasons

Wherever my points are worth considering, however bad the situation is or is not, I think there are some points.

You are right, there are many nasty Republicans who can't be reached, and attempting to reach them can result in abuse.

Neighbors on the other hand, and other people who we might have a friendly disagreement with, are a potential opportunity to show them that liberals are just reasonable people living their lives, trying to sort out facts and have a better country.

It is all too easy to be lured into the trap of absolutes, especially in these trying times. I have many friends who are very conservative, especially given my extended military service.

We certainly can't stop trying to convert people, plenty of them were simply misled and are ripe to be shown the error of their ways, as you say. I suppose I might be too much of a contrarian, especially on this board.

In solidarity,
a

KABOOOOM!

Oh shit... sorry. I blew up the Democrats.

Y'all go on home now, take up those hobbies you've meant to do. Visit France. Study ornithology. Plenty of time for that now.

I'll sweep up the mess around here. Again, sorry.

:toast:

You only perpetuate that Dems (should I call say Dems? Is that right?) are big meanies who use bad words like Dick Cheney! Grow up and look at this serious argument will you? Do you wanna be a Dick Cheney and maybe someday shoot someone in the face? DO YOU!?!?! Dam well didn't think so! No be-have! :evilgrin:

Damn I just turned the Dems into glass! Really I think I need to work on getting even more vulgar and rude I'm just not nasty enough. I'll help ya with the sweeping up charlie there is a LOT of trash on DU lately.

Why do you hate freedom? :crazy:

Bush is a poo-eater! I would compare The braindead morans who voted for him to a head of lettuce but I wouldn't want to insult the intelligence of your average dinner salad! Did I mention that I'm "anti-God"-- and I want to make people stop celebrating Christmas? Not only should Gays be allowed to get married, but straight taxpayers should be forced to pay for the catering!

Wheeeeeee!

I think you've just killed the Greens, too.

:-)

personally never got in the habit of repuke, but I'm a sucker for great hyperbole. This was FUNNY!

Also i'd like to point out that similar tactics did apparently help Repubs come to power.

I think appealing to the character flaws of people, appealing to fear, approving of gut reactions instead of thinking, flattered people who wanted to just react, gave them an ok to react, and many people wanted that, a cultural problem that's been building.

To oppose them we need to encourage another kind of culture.

Authoritarians tend to do well by appealing to fear and gut reactions, nasty bullying, etc.

Non-authoritarians do tend to do less well with such tactics.

The same tactics won't be likely to work for Democrats UNLESS the Democratic party becomes more like the current Republican Party in other ways as well, and the entire culture would suffer more to the degree that was the case.

You illustrate my point perfectly.

I voted COMPLETELY DEMOCRAT in the last election, and I will do so next election, I've favored Democrats over Republicans since I was in college in the early 90's, I liked Clinton and always hated the impeachment crap that the Republicans were pulling against him.

But when I say something with just a little different language, with some challenge, with some disagreement and frustration, several imply I'm some kind of Republican or something.

What is that? Can't even disagree and work it out with someone who's voting Democrat consistently.

Can't even do that.

Oh yeah, you can reach out to others. Not.

Of course we can disagree.

There are quite a few stories of DU-ers having managed to "turn" repubs around, and not by talking down to them or anything like that.

We've heard it all before; 'this and that makes dems look bad' - fact is, the things you decry is just DU-ers talking amongs themselves. Then still, it's hardly all DU-ers who talk like that.
And if someone is acting like an idiot, i see no harm in calling a spade a spade. In fact there's a danger in acting politely when there's cause not to; it creates the impression we're ok with the idiocy.

Besides, it doesn't look like the Republican party needs any help in making itself unpopular - just look at W's job approval ratings and the low support for the occupation of Iraq.
And now supposedly we need to be politically correct in order to be able to win elections? Repubs sure didn't need to be PC to win elections.

If there's anything we need to do to win elections it is to reclaim the election system for the people;


BuzzFlash
June 2, 2006
How They Stole Ohio
The GOP 4-step Recipe to 'Blackwell' the USA in 2008
Abracadabra: Three Million Votes Vanish
AN EXCLUSIVE BUZZFLASH GUEST CONTRIBUTION
by Greg Palast
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06219.html

<snip>

And there's some new tricks for these old dogs. For 2006 and 2008, the GOP is pushing new Voter ID requirements. Your signature won't be good enough anymore.

What's wrong with the new ID laws? This: In the 2004 election, 300,000 voters were turned away from the polls for "wrong" ID. For example, in the "Little Texas" counties in New Mexico, if your voter registration included a middle initial but your driver's license had none, you were kicked out of the polling station. Funny, but they only seemed to ask Hispanic voters. We should see the number of voters rejected for ID quintuple by 2008, based on the new "voting reform" laws recently passed in several states.

<more>

Repukes suck monkey balls! Now to all you conservatives out there let me explain - republicans create a vacuum in their mouths for hairy primate scrotum. For PNACers; the monkey put its balls in your mouth. For the old GOPers; the monkey said he'd suck your balls for a price. And finally for Dick Cheney, go suck Monkey's balls!!!

Those very same tactics were used to demonize Democrats and make liberal a dirty word. We got called tree-huggers, welfare queens, unpatriotic, etc. until it became part of the American lexicon.

Meanwhile, the conservative elite derides Joe Six Pack right to his face too. Recently, neo-con columnist Cal Thomas referred to Fox viewers as "trailer trash" on the air! But they're still going to watch and believe everything they hear on it. Screw 'em. I'm DONE coddling the idiots. There are more than enough educable people, as evidenced by Junior's high disapproval rating. Let the 25% Left Behind missing links choke on their pork rinds for all I care.

Great, that will be great.

Keep it up. (sarcasm)

Dems playing nice for 25 years while rhetorical handgrenades exploded around them is what got us to this point. Now the OP wants to continue the same path and expects a different result.

Isn't that consistent with the old adage about neuroses?
The Professor

However, there is a difference between ranting on a discussion board and how a person reacts when they are in an argument with someone who disagrees with them.

I'll call Bushbots names all day long around here, but when I deal with people directly I try my best not to use putdowns and insults and let my knowledge and the facts speak for themselves.

One thing I see happening a lot more lately is that the DEMS do have a very positive message. I you look at DEM's like Al Gore, General Wesley Clark, Bill Clinton, and many others, they are talking about the future and they've already proven that they know how to lead and be successful.

didn't you mean "DUMBOCRATS" or "DEMONRATS" or something?

just saying.

seriously though, i got no shortage of laughter from the level of disconnect apparent in your post.

look up any definition or historical description of fascism and if you can't see the application to the current u.s. i would suggest you pay greater attention.

reactionary means extremely conservative. i think you mean reactive. please don't label people who disagree with extreme conservatives as "reactionary". the opposite of reactionary is progressive.

Reactionary isn't just applicable to Republicans.

The 'left' can be reactionary. It isn't always clear what 'left' means anyhow.

if a leftist is extremely conservative then, yes, they are reactionary. if not extremely conservative then no, they can't be reactionary.

as for fascist, which you ignored from my post, the u.s. is there, right now, and has been for some time. look at any description of fascist countries and you'll see the resemblance.

parties for centuries even as the names they have called themselves (and each other) and issues they have addressed have changed.

Do you think Thom. Jefferson and John Adams were always civil and pleasant to each other and played "nice" where politics were concerned? Do you think their "base" was always polished and profound in how they addressed issues and each other? Not everyone was as "diplomatic" as Ben Franklin, whom, from what I've read, normally seemed to have had a knack for telling people to go to hell and make them want to book the trip. :D

Also do you think the type of behavior you mention is strictly American? Just as one example: England's political system has been around a very long time and from what I've heard and seen (we get Canadian news where we live in NNY) their reps and party members can make ours look rather tame.

In some guise or another Democrats and Republicans will be around for a very very long time, they just may change the name again much as they have from Whigs and Tories. "A rose by any other name..." - Centuries from now (if we survive that long) there will still be those who will speak and fight for the poor, the suppressed and downtrodden, etc and there will still be those that will push the agenda of the rich, corporation, etc... and they'll still have segments within each group that "stir the pot"... perhaps to do anything less would be against human nature.

It is about being reactionary, demogogic, simlistic, bullying, and nasty to others who might be reached. Why do those things?

and, although it's a wondeful ideal, IME that's simply not the way the world is made up and Dems are no exception.

Dems are a very diverse group of people. They come in various ages, races, cultures, sexs, religions (and none), backgrounds, etc. All of this diversity is reflected in the way they handle situations, life and post. There are times when the way some folks will post (here and on other boards) will grate on my nerves a bit but I normally tend to put it down to this amazing diversity that is such an integral part of the Democratic party.

If you're talking about folks on DU specifically without being specific... although there are exceptions, most folks I've meet from online chat boards over the years are quite a bit "tamer" in person then online. Posting on discussion boards, where we tend to feel a certain sense of anonymity, often tends to remove some of the restrictions we would normally would have if we were in a offline public place and face to face with someone. Also you may want to consider that this, and other chat boards, are usually considered by many as safe places to vent (with some hopfully kindred spirits) about situations and the insuing emotions that arise that they wouldn't necessarily show in their offline life.

Just a closing thought from something I heard a long time ago... The Devil exists so that God can look good.

You can be grumpy and sharp without being so ideological that it's all just rhetoric to attack/react/over-simplify.

combined with so many different types of temperments and such a large number of members, IME some of what you seem upset about is bound to happen.

Although I personally can be "grumpy and sharp without being so ideological" I know that I'm a human being and there will be times (when I'm over tired, stressed, etc) and issues that I too may "react" and "over-simplify". Although I'm very big on "attack the post, not the poster"... although with some folks even a simple observation of behavior meant to let the person know what you perceive to be an issue can be considered an "attack" even the intentions were not meant in that way.

Although I can understand where you are coming from with some of your points I normally tend to see them more as a part of human nature and a part of the diversity that keeps DU (and life) so interesting. Although sometimes I may be able to influence some people's behavior over time it is up to them to actually desire that change... OTOH.... sometimes it is up to me to change my perspective enough to try and see where they are coming from and find ways that they may be a positive influence on "the cause".

You are making good points.

It seems to me that something like a larger current that could be associated with a 'culture of fascism' or some kind of reactionary/authoritarian/bullying current, is infecting the culture at large, left-right-center, in America, especially right now.

Getting Bush out of office is important, but dealing with this larger cultural issue, will take some time, and if too many who are opposed to Bush are in their own way fueling this cultural problem, we will have more and more problems with authoritarianism, bullying, harassment, etc.

Are you serious? How many strawmen are in that post of yours? I count 9.

They don't help build up the party, they do hurt the party.

Whatever- you can call fascism "fuzzy bunny happy time" for all I care. I'll call it what it actually is. Sorry if the truth hurts someone's feelings.

If you want it to work for Democrats, do you want the Democratic party to become more authoritarian and bullying? What if that's what it took for it to work?

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Bullshit.
The sooner we make a concrete stand, the better. There's no time for being wishy-washy.
Thanks for playing, I'm not buying what you're selling.

Not on non-verifiable stuff that is just ideology anyways, not on just name-calling that has nothing to do with facts.

its for DEMOCRATS.

get that post count up to 1000+ and then you can tell us we're bad.

The Neocon Neonazis got thier Reichstag, next is the night of the long knives. Moderate Republicans and the most dangerous of liberals will be rounded up along with any rogue elements of the intelligence services. Wait for it.

useless, it's deadly.

Fuck Repukes. :nuke: heh heh

I was arguing AGAINST reactionariness, over-simplifying issues, demogogery, and alienating people who may be reachable.

If every neighbor you have who is voting differently, is seen as simply 'enemy' then you've opted out of politics.

They don't need politics, they can just spout off, they get ahead that way, but look what their agendas are, they don't need anything else.

:kick:

Hoooo-kaaaaay ... :eyes:

Not all of them. Or maybe just change the wording of some of them.

Long story short, you can't go sounding like a nut-ball.

The important part is to not let any of what you said get in the way of the truth and speaking your mind.

and awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww... chickenhawk

to actual fascists of the past, and explain to people when they ask where are the brown-shirts/black-shirts, where are the loss of freedoms that people suffered under Hitler, Franco, and Mussolini, and you can say well that's in the works or something, but if you CAN'T do that, what is it, just heat without light seems to me.

An INTELLIGENT concern about things turning fascist or being fascist, is different than reacting with the label and screaming whenever someone challenges you on specifics or on labeling. Get my drift?

and the morons who voted for them.

POOF! You have just been annihilated.

Why? Because I'm gay, and I happen to know on a very personal, decades-old basis that namecalling, taunting, and manufactured fear work. They are very predictably strong tactics to turn one group against another. Lying also works quite well.

We need to find the proper rhetoric that will turn the public against the neocon motherfuckers who are fostering this crap. Once they and theirs are out of power, then we can go back to playing "nice".

I mean if you think lying about others is so effective, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, well then why care if you are misrepresented, why should I care?

Reactionaries, authoritarians of all sorts, DO often benefit by just relying on the worst in people.

So if you just want your movement to be authoritarian or reactionary, you can contribute to such a movement by dehumanizing others, by escalating needless conflict with people who may not be enemies, by being paranoid, or by being over-simplistic.

And even if your movement isn't authoritarian, such tactics will help erode the entire culture so that it is more suitable for the authoritarians, and you will have done you part to help America devolve.

Yes, you would be helping America potentially turn into a more violent, authoritarian, reactionary place.

That is my problem with what you are saying.

>> Why? Because I'm gay, and I happen to know on a very personal, decades-old basis that namecalling, taunting, and manufactured fear work. They are very predictably strong tactics to turn one group against another. Lying also works quite well.

And I will not support you or your movement, to the extent it displays such defects of character, just as I oppose the Republicans.

Luckily, there are other gay movements, that differ in character from what you are describing, and I do support those gay movements.

>> We need to find the proper rhetoric that will turn the public against the neocon motherfuckers who are fostering this crap.

How about facts that they don't want to hear.

How about real solutions.

How about really making clear arguments about how they are harming the country.

If you win through reactionary tactics, then the country will be more reactionary, and you will really have lost more than you have won, and I will no longer by an ally at all.

I'm won't be loyal to someone when I find out they are just reactionaries.

>> Once they and theirs are out of power, then we can go back to playing "nice".

You can be 'harsh' with facts, though, and that's what I recommend.

Instead, you seem to want to just lie, distort, name-call, etc.

Well that's not helping.

And what about Republican voters who are NOT morons?

If you underestimate your ACTUAL enemies, that's not helpful, that can be dangerous.

If you mis-identify your enemies, that's alienating potential future allies or at least potential non-enemies.

On the one hand, you seem to think negativity is a bad tactic--that's how the OP reads.

Then it seems like you're morally opposed to lowering yourself to their level.

And now you're back to tactics?

I'm more interested in the people who don't vote than those who vote stupidly.

I'd really LOVE for you to clarify what you mean
when you claim that we Democrats (or "they", as you call us)
"push controversial issues".

Push for the most important issues first, and then other issues, and I understand, lots of people understand.

But if you fail to push against what happened at Abu Ghraib, if you fail to push against corruption, if you fail to push against the bullying/harassment/humiliation culture, then the rest of what you say is nonsense to me, and to a lot of other people, too.

I.e., if you are for all those important things and you are against the very serious things, and you are clearly against the bullying/harassment/humiliation culture, then you will get more support for controversial things, at least you will get a hearing. If you are NOT in line on the other stuff, why support you at all?

Feel free to share any more unsolicited advice should the mood strike you. :eyes:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I'm also someone who was writing this in 2002 on Unknown news:

Threat To Freedom Alert: http://www.unknownnews.net/cp120602.html

Arming America: http://web.pitas.com/page6/cp4.html

Fascist Expectations: http://web.pitas.com/page6/cp111302.html

I'm very serious about fighting reactionary culture and the sorts of dynamics that culturally fuel authoritarians, fascists, tyrants of all kinds.

You win the Magical Cookie of Baseless Inflammatory Poop!

Will you be going to Disney Land soon?