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Bush: "If we cut & run, then all those soldiers have died in vain"

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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 06:49 AM
Original message
Bush: "If we cut & run, then all those soldiers have died in vain"
(paraphrasing) I saw a clip from Bush's speech to republican fund raisers last night and he was all red in the face with anger and rage at the democrat cut and runners and said that he refuses to pull out of Iraq like the democrats want him to.

Instead of avoiding the giant rotting corpse in the room, the war, they are using it as their main talking point and strength. The plan seems to be to label all those who want to get out of Iraq as cowards.

He also used that line again, saying that pulling out now would mean all those who've fallen in Iraq fell in vain, and he ain't gonna let that happen while he "occupies" the white house.

In other words, BRING IT ON.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Interesting turn of phrase. I think he truly is "occupying" the WH. nt.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. Bush Will Never Be Able To Admit His Failure Over Iraq
Edited on Tue Jun-20-06 06:55 AM by mhr
And must use the crutch of honor to maintain the facade of success over a failed mission and leadership.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. Saving face is more important than saving lives.
Saving private Ryan came to mind today when I heard another soldier was killed in the search for the missing one.s
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. So the answer to this is; have more of them die! He said we were in
this for the long haul. Is he willing to sacrifice the thousands more that will die in his ten year war - I think this is the number of years he said we would be in their.
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
4. Our soldiers have died for the occupiers vanity
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wildwww2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. The troops are dying now for Bu$h`s vanity and corporate profits!
The Bu$h twins and their ilk can never fill the cannon fodder role that our present troops play. That is for sure. This noble war will not include the nobility. If it had to they would "cut and run" in a heart beat.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. they are dyin for his 'legacy"
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. STFU....
Why does this man defy the storm and burn us all
Each time his hand waves
The sun, it sets on lonely graves

Haven't we read this page before
They gonna lose the war
Put down the glory flag
Nothing will be the same

This is the world he wants
Pray for the brave and the young
It won't bring them back again


- "The World That He Wants," Jamiroquai
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. I liked Kerry's remarks on this last week at the TBA conf
He was referencing the conversation about patriotism and dissent over the Vietnam conflict and linking it to today:

And that’s certainly what I felt when I came home from Vietnam, convinced that our political leaders were waging war simply to cover up their own past mistakes and that the reason to be there was that we were already there; that more had to die because many already had.

My friends, war is no excuse for its own perpetuation.


I agree. The we are there because it justifies the fact that we are there is a non-sensical statement.
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halobeam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. That's it in a nutshell, isn't it!
"war is no excuse for its own perpetuation"
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. Just by the statement that bush made
that it "ain't gonna to let that happen" just shows you how ignorant and detached this man really is. Let him send his daughters there.
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tlsmith1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
9. They Died in Vain Anyway
For Bush's WMD lie.

Tammy
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abluelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Of Course We Cannot Say That Out There
My heart aches for all the families who lost loved ones for no reason. How do you ever reconcile that? Imho, not by killing more kids. The regime has to stop this nonsense.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
36. "The regime has to stop this nonsense."
We have to stop this regime. And the thugs and cutthroats have to be brought to justice and sentenced if found guilty. Only by doing this could we possibly stop this from happening again. We mustn't forget that many of the "players" this time around were involved in previous scandals (i.e., Iran/Contra).

The next gang of criminals may think twice about pulling something like this if Bush et al are rotting in prison somewhere.
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abluelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. You're Right
But until we have elections without fraud, there doesn't seem much we can do. November is just around the corner--where are paper trail voting machines?
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. No, they didn't.!
This is what I tell my sister when she says that if we leave 'the soldiers will have died for nothing':

"Their valor of service isn't diminished because we choose to change objectives. They fight for what we ask them to fight for, and that where the nobility of their service lies. The idea that if we leave, the soldiers will have died for nothing, is an insult to their sacrifice."
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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
39. there you go
we haven't wasted their lives, we've wasted their deaths and this administration must pay for it.
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guinivere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
42. Oh. I never thought of it like that.
Great point, CalmBlue.
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guinivere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
40. Exactly. All those grieving families and friends, all those wounded,
Edited on Tue Jun-20-06 05:33 PM by guinivere
lives interrupted, and vast amounts of money. All for a lie that that asshat living in the WH told. More people must die because he's too fucking proud to say he was wrong??!!

I could just scream.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. But, Georgie! You Said "Mission Accomplished"
So, if anybody was killed after "mission accomplished" they've already died in vain. And, if the "mission" is "accomplished" then leaving wouldn't be "cutting and running". If the mission is over, there is nothing to "cut & run" from"!
The Professor
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meti57b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
12. We need a language frame for getting out, as good as "cut and run".
Edited on Tue Jun-20-06 07:20 AM by meti57b
Somehow the republican positions seem to lend themselves to the best framing.

Maybe they come up with the best language frames because they are so simple-minded.
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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. We already have one...
Bush, Rove, and the Republicans want to "STAY THE COURSE". They want to STAY THE COURSE in a failed occupation without any plan to end it.

It may not be as emotional as 'cut and run', but don't forget that most people agree with us. Every poll agrees that staying the course is the wrong way to go about ending this war.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I liked Murtha's "stay and pay" rebuttal on MTP this week. n/t
MKJ
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. I also liked his "they ran and hid" slogan when referring to those
who got deferrments during Viet Nam and are willing to send our soldiers to Iraq today.
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. You got it on the second sentence.
Edited on Tue Jun-20-06 07:31 AM by calmblueocean
At least, I think so. Einstein once said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." And that's the problem with Republicans. They rely on and encourage oversimplification to the point of mocking anyone with curiosity and intelligence. This works perfectly with our major media -- television can't communicate anything more complex than a 3-word sound byte very well. But of course, the world is much more complex than 3-word soundbytes (and why is it always three words? "Cut and run", "shock and awe", "tax and spend", "axis of evil", "war on terror", etc, etc) and the longer we try to pretend that 3-word philosophies are adequate for running the world, the more damage we do.

I don't know what the solution is yet, but I think you touched on a big part of the problem. How do you compete with oversimplification?

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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. "Lie and Die" ! They lie and our soldiers die.
Besides, people need to call out this administration for reducing this serious issue down to something as rediculious as C&R.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
32. RETREAT--It's perfectly honorable.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
18. He wants to make the same mistakes the Russians did in Afghanistan.
He doesn't want to *embarrass* himself nor his party.


FUCK THEM!

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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
19. Great strategy. Get more killed to honor the previous casualties.
I cannot believe these people.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
20. We can beat those Viet Cong! Just give it time!
George would still be there squinting at that light at the end of the tunnel.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
21. he did -ran all the way to yale
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
22. No, they died fighting a rich man's war...as usual
Edited on Tue Jun-20-06 07:57 AM by Hubert Flottz
January 26, 1998



The Honorable William J. Clinton
President of the United States
Washington, DC


Dear Mr. President:

We are writing you because we are convinced that current American policy toward Iraq is not succeeding, and that we may soon face a threat in the Middle East more serious than any we have known since the end of the Cold War. In your upcoming State of the Union Address, you have an opportunity to chart a clear and determined course for meeting this threat. We urge you to seize that opportunity, and to enunciate a new strategy that would secure the interests of the U.S. and our friends and allies around the world. That strategy should aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime from power. We stand ready to offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor.

The policy of “containment” of Saddam Hussein has been steadily eroding over the past several months. As recent events have demonstrated, we can no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War coalition to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections. Our ability to ensure that Saddam Hussein is not producing weapons of mass destruction, therefore, has substantially diminished. Even if full inspections were eventually to resume, which now seems highly unlikely, experience has shown that it is difficult if not impossible to monitor Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons production. The lengthy period during which the inspectors will have been unable to enter many Iraqi facilities has made it even less likely that they will be able to uncover all of Saddam’s secrets. As a result, in the not-too-distant future we will be unable to determine with any reasonable level of confidence whether Iraq does or does not possess such weapons.


Such uncertainty will, by itself, have a seriously destabilizing effect on the entire Middle East. It hardly needs to be added that if Saddam does acquire the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction, as he is almost certain to do if we continue along the present course, the safety of American troops in the region, of our friends and allies like Israel and the moderate Arab states, and a significant portion of the world’s supply of oil will all be put at hazard. As you have rightly declared, Mr. President, the security of the world in the first part of the 21st century will be determined largely by how we handle this threat.


Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy. MORE...

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

Iraq/Middle East

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast2000-1997.htm

Statement of Principles


http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

The Lie Factory

snip>

Six months after the end of major combat in Iraq, the United States had spent $300 million trying to find banned weapons in Iraq, and President Bush was seeking $600 million more to extend the search. Not found were Iraq's Scuds and other long-range missiles, thousands of barrels and tons of anthrax and botulism stock, sarin and VX nerve agents, mustard gas, biological and chemical munitions, mobile labs for producing biological weapons, and any and all evidence of a reconstituted nuclear-arms program, all of which had been repeatedly cited as justification for the war. Also missing was evidence of Iraqi collaboration with Al Qaeda.

The reports, virtually all false, of Iraqi weapons and terrorism ties emanated from an apparatus that began to gestate almost as soon as the Bush administration took power. In the very first meeting of the Bush national-security team, one day after President Bush took the oath of office in January 2001, the issue of invading Iraq was raised, according to one of the participants in the meeting‚ -- and officials all the way down the line started to get the message, long before 9/11. Indeed, the Bush team at the Pentagon hadn't even been formally installed before Paul Wolfowitz, the deputy secretary of Defense, and Douglas J. Feith, undersecretary of Defense for policy, began putting together what would become the vanguard for regime change in Iraq.

Both Wolfowitz and Feith have deep roots in the neoconservative movement. One of the most influential Washington neo- conservatives in the foreign-policy establishment during the Republicans' wilderness years of the 1990s, Wolfowitz has long held that not taking Baghdad in 1991 was a grievous mistake. He and others now prominent in the administration said so repeatedly over the past decade in a slew of letters and policy papers from neoconservative groups like the Project for the New American Century and the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq. Feith, a former aide to Richard Perle at the Pentagon in the 1980s and an activist in far-right Zionist circles, held the view that there was no difference between U.S. and Israeli security policy and that the best way to secure both countries' future was to solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem not by serving as a broker, but with the United States as a force for "regime change" in the region.

Called in to help organize the Iraq war-planning team was a longtime Pentagon official, Harold Rhode, a specialist on Islam who speaks Hebrew, Arabic, Turkish, and Farsi. Though Feith would not be officially confirmed until July 2001, career military and civilian officials in NESA began to watch his office with concern after Rhode set up shop in Feith's office in early January. Rhode, seen by many veteran staffers as an ideological gadfly, was officially assigned to the Pentagon's Office of Net Assessment, an in-house Pentagon think tank headed by fellow neocon Andrew Marshall. Rhode helped Feith lay down the law about the department's new anti-Iraq, and broadly anti-Arab, orientation. In one telling incident, Rhode accosted and harangued a visiting senior Arab diplomat, telling him that there would be no "bartering in the bazaar anymore. You're going to have to sit up and pay attention when we say so." More...

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/01/12_405.html

Office of Special Plans

The Office of Special Plans, which existed from September, 2002, to June, 2003, was a Pentagon unit created by Donald Rumsfeld and led by Douglas Feith, dealing with intelligence on Iraq. An allegedly similar unit, called the Iranian Directorate, was created in 2006 to deal with intelligence on Iran. More.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans

SELECTIVE INTELLIGENCE
Donald Rumsfeld has his own special sources. Are they reliable?
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/030512fa_fact

The spies who pushed for war

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html

MOVING TARGETS
Will the counter-insurgency plan in Iraq repeat the mistakes of Vietnam?
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031215fa_fact





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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
24. When have we heard that before? Late 60's-early '70's. nt
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
25. No, they died in vain because of lies
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. all because of lies.
the big lie of WMD's among so many more............
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
29. No soldier ever died in vain serving his country! It makes no difference
what the conflict is or was. They all served their country valiantly. Gore said something similar on "Larry King" recently. What is important is that we value their sacrifices and do not put them in harms way unnecessarily.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. I think a distinction is possible. Soldiers who die following orders
most assuredly validate their OWN honor, integrity and valor which does NOT transfer to those who sent them to die for their own nefarious causes. We can celebrate the lives and sacrifice of the fallen troops and still note they were poorly and cynically -used- by the criminals who dispatched them to faraway lands using lies and deception as excuses.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
31. Well, I guess those three other countries in the south are cutting and...
running.

We *really* need to reframe what we want as a disengagement.

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
33. What soldiers, George? We haven't seen any on the teevee...
What soldiers are ya talkin' about Georgie? There have been no coffins allowed to be photographed and hardly ANY news about casualties...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
34. Fucking occupier!
That's not the way the it works..ya dumb chimp!

Two fucking wrongs don't make a right.

All those Soldiers who died ..well, their Blood is on your dirty hands and we Need to get out of Iraq so more Soldiers blood won't be shed for your LIES!
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
35. You can always hear the people who are willing to sacrifice
somebody else's life. They're plenty loud and they talk all the time. You can find them in churches and schools and newspapers and legislatures and congress. That's their business. They sound wonderful. Death before dishonor. This ground sanctified by blood. These men who died so gloriously.

They shall not have died in vain. Our noble dead.

Hmmmm. But what do the dead say?
Dalton Trumbo, Johnny Got His Gun 1939

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caty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
38. Our soldiers did not die in vain.
They were murdered. They were pushed into an illegal war. They were sent there unprepared. They were brave and honorable enough to obey their government, even though their government was wrong.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. No Iraq War.
The War was over when the Iraqi Army was defeated. Since then the US and the UK have been in Occupier mode. This is a Bush Regime Occupation of the Sovereign Nation of Iraq.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
43. That's why we stayed in Vietnam for so long
Same idiotic talking point.

We have to justify the people we have killed by killing some more people.

that's what he is saying
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PWRinNY Donating Member (456 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
45. Like the DEMOCRATS want him to???
Excuse me but... I believe it's AMERICANS who want him to get our troops out of Iraq. Not just Democrats.

Furthermore, if they continue to stay the wrong course over there, as they are, then they ARE dying in vain. Iraq isn't going to get any better until America gets out and lets them govern themselves.

Freedom isn't something you bring to a people. It's something that burns within, and something that a people themselves fight for. Right now - Iraqis are fighting for their freedom from US - just as we did against Britain.

Getting the hell out of there is the way to ensure that no more of our soldiers die in vain.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
46. Learn from Vietnam get on the helicoptor and get the hell out of
there!!!
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-20-06 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
47. bush is such a bastard
none of them died in vain
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