Call me crazy but I am opposed to home schooling and private schools

Seriously...

I honestly think part of being 'one America' means we should be schooled together, not kept like some slave, taught by the parents god-knows-what and released into the world with this incorrect knowlege.

Religious schools do not provide a true education. They skirt issues in history, science and literature that do not advance their goals. This happens on an even more insane level with home schooling.

So do I think they are just a bad idea or should be taken off the table completely? I vie for the second option. Homeschooling should be flat out eliminated. No other civilized country allows this to pass for education. Parents are parents, but they are not teachers.

And private schools? Well if you want tutoring in say, creationism or flat-earth-ism feel free to do so, but AFTER SCHOOL HOURS.

Although I support parent's rights to do so.

After school, yes, but signed into our social contract is the obligation of the state to educate our kids. This isn't just to help the kids, but to (1) reduce crime by giving the kids options, (2) lure jobs to the state by providing a competent and educated workforce and (3) keep the US in the technological market by having an educated populace.

Their so called right to home school or send their kids to private school infringes on my right to work and live in a safe country.

But taking the kids away infringes on their right to raise their kids as they see fit. Which is something of a basic human right.

It's not a clear cut case of child abuse.

that your rights are infringed upon by either home schooling or private schools. I think it would smak of totalitarianism to force all children to attend public school

It may be the states responsibility to provide education but I am unaware of anything that forces a parent to take them up on it.

If I can send my kids to a school with half the class size and still pay the same property taxes to the public schools how is that wrong?


BTW, there ARE secular private schools you know, lots of them......I send my kids to one because our local elementary school has 1200 students, 17 trailers and class sizes over 30.

Oh, and you can get an excellent education at a Quaker or "Friends" School

...parents of private school kids were not allowed to join school boards. But they are.

Private Schools also teach out and out untruths - I should know - I went to a Fundy Junior High. I didn't learn algebra or science, so when I went to public high school I was stuck in remedial classes to catch up.

I did however, memorize lots of useless bible verses, learn that Stairway to Heaven says "My Sweet Satan" if played backwards, and learn that the Earth is only six thousand years old. Oh, I also learned the Bible is the literal word of God.

My kids go to a secular private school. I'm sorry you had to be put in a brainwashing situation....

I am the product of 11 lovely years of both day and boarding schools, both private, and secular. I dropped out of 2nd grade public school halfway through the year b/c my intelligence and independence were wholly disrespected by the teachers and students. And I don't think I'm any worse off for it, thank you very much.

...it reserves the quality education for those who can afford it. It runs against my inner socialist, that thinks in order to have a level playing field, we should all have the same opportunities as much as can be given.

My parents bent over backwards to pay for me to go to boarding school, and didn't finish paying it off until I was 20 or so. They valued the education I received enough to do so. I'm sorry that not everyone can do that, but that doesn't mean gifted yet unusual children like I was should have to suffer through public school hell...And, as a tutor, I can honestly say that when I bear children, it's highly unlikely that they will go to public schools, given the piss-poor level of education they would receive there. Try teaching a recent HS graduate his *multiplication tables*, and then get back to me, 'k?

First, we need to equalize the funding base. No more of this "San Ramon kids get a better education than Oakland kids." Same money spent on each student, no matter.

Then, of course, we need to ask the teachers what they need. Not the administrators, not the parents, and not even the unions. Ask the teachers on a pencil and eraser level what they need to do their job. Then give it to them. Above all, stock the office supply cabinet.

Then, we need to make all schools bilignual. Seriously. If you come from a Spanish speaking country, then many of your classes are in Spanish (except ESL of course) and you come out of HS at the same level that you would if America was a Spanish speaking country. For lesser spoken languages, tutoring WILL be available. Oh, and if English is your language, then surprise! You're learning a second language.

Math needs to be ramped up, and our schools should take a Montesorri approach - start algebra in 2nd grade. SERIOUSLY! There is no brain function that will not allow a 2nd grader from understanding basic algebra.

Just remember, in your quest for making everyone equal, that not all children are created equal. Some of us need what cannot be provided by the one-size-fits-all approach, that's all. :)

Back in the 70's, California schools used to have a requirement that teachers set aside 30 min or so each semester with every student for a one-on-one meeting. In small class settings (20 or less) this works very well.

That way the teacher can give individual solutions when needed.

What do you think hs'ing is?

:rofl:

You must have attended public school...

My oldest child was in a "bilingual" school in California. Yes, he was required to learn Spanish. Yes, he was in a class with many "ESL" students. His teachers, unfortunately, had to target their lesson plans to the lowest common demoninator. My son was being deprived of an education. We pulled him out of public school and began to teach him at home. I don't care for your idea of a level playing field. My preference, as a parent, is to provide the best education within my means.

Edit to add:

Considering you referenced "San Ramon," I see that you are familiar with the area. My children attended school in Concord and Walnut Creek. Even in the more affluent areas, our children were receiving substandard educations. I do believe that all children have the right to an equal education - but not if "equal" means having to dumb the system down.

that public schools in some areas are delivering such poor education is that so many people don't feel a personal stake in the quality of the education provided and won't vote for the $$$ to fund them properly and don't pay attention to the school board actions. If parents are supporting the public schools as places of education for all, then I don't care what choice they make for their own children.

The sad reality is that more parents are not only opting out of sending their children to public school but don't view it as a social responsibility to maintain a public school system. Parents aren't the only ones who may not view it as a social responsibility --- there are also people who are childless by choice or whose own kids are grown.

The less relevant that a quality education is to voters, the more likely it is that we will churn out more HS grads who can't grasp multiplication tables.

My public school education was good. I had stronger fundamentals in grammar, mathematics, science, and history than a fair number of my college classmates who went to private schools or public schools in wealthy areas. Public schools can provide quality education when there is a community commitment to do so.

I would take it one step further and argue that most Americans do not feel as though they have a stake in the success or failure of others, period. Be it other people's children or other workers. But you especially find this sentiment with regard to education, as the only education that is important to most people is that of their own offspring. And that sentiment only seems to intensify in most people when their children attend a private school.

Even when I thought I was going to be childless by choice, I was extremely interested in education issues. And the reaction of most parents was very telling- it was none of my concern what their children did. I try to remind people every chance I get that it will be their children who will be working to pay for my Social Security and running the country when I am old. Of course I have a stake in the education of their children!

that you have a selfish interest in the education system. I support anyone who wants to be involved in the educational sytem to make it better, but tha is not a good reason. Not saying you shouldn;t continue being involved, but to be involved , just to make sure you get you SS check in 40 years is not a good reason.

If I were you I would not plan on SS being there when retiement rolls around. Their is no money in the trust fund only IOU's. Once those come due and our children's FICA taxes go from 15.3% to 30% in tip of their taxes and a revolt happoens then what?

On further thought, I shouldn't jump you for wanting to be involved in Educational issues whatever you reasons. At least you care and are trying.

the public schools are driving me crazy. No Child Left Behind has turned elementary school into a grindingly pressured place. . . and yet, it doesn't mean they're learning more than before. (Since my children are spread out in ages, I can really see the effects.)

And in high school, everything is about studying for short answer tests. Don't get me started about those hideous 5 paragraph essays.

I spoke up, went to Board meetings, etc. In short, I did everything I could think of to help improve the situation. But in the end, I took my younger son out. I'm not going to sacrifice his needs to my ideals about public education.

My child is still fairly young, but I've already been wondering what I will do in a couple of years when it is time for school. I agree, NCLB, fundy school boards and the corporate takeover of public schools is downright scary, which is why I just might enroll my child in a private school. But in my area, that also means a religious school, and since we're agnostics...

But I think Gormy's point was that if more people acted like you (involved, voting and aware of what the schools are like), private schools just might be unnecessary. But it seems that once most people take their own children out of public school, they ignore what's happening in their district.

school usually aim at the broad group of kids in the middle. Our public schools here have deliberately moved away from the ideal of individualizing education to a one-size-fits-all curriculum. But my kids don't fit the mold. I'm not going to let the public schools use their cookie cutters on them.

You are paying attention to the schools. Your son may not have been served by them, but keep fighting for them, please.

educated there.

I have worried about the isolation of some kids, too. Not the home-schooled kids of good parents . . . but of the creepy ones.

But as far as private/religious schools goes . . . maybe the real issue is accreditation. If we required all schools to be accredited to a set of standards, would that satisfy your concerns?

As long as it included the mandatory teaching of Evolution, and had very high standards for the other disciplines.

IN all honesty, an overhaul of our public schools is needed, plain and simple.

parents of public school kids should be allowed to be on school boards?

Currently that's not a requirement, AFAIK at least.

My wife and I are planning on homeschooling. We both attended crappy schools; we think the schools where we live are crappy, and don't want to sacrifice our child to somebody's idea of exalted enforced mediocrity. Private schools are probably going to be beyond our reach; public schools are a last resort.

But if somebody were optimistic and wanted to make the schools better so they could switch their kids to the public school, I'd say on average they'd be more motivated than people with no kids.

They pay taxes for those schools whether their kids are attending them or not.

to join the school board as they pay taxes. SHould we limit school board involvement to only those with children in the the public school system?

this country would be "a safe country"? I don't see how homeschooling or private schools make the country less safe.

It's the children who have the 'rights' - and those rights are held in a kind of 'escrow' or 'trust' where the parents are the trustees. All trustees, however, have an affirmative DUTY to act in the best interests of the beneficiaries. Denying the children an education that fully prepares them to interact in a diverse society could be regarded as a failure to meet that duty. The only legitimate rationale for authority is that which is necessary to fulfill a duty - and it's parental authority we're talking about - not 'rights.'

Children are not the battlefield where parents get to act out their own peculiar animosities and political dysfunctions. They are not, for example, to be denied medical care by parents who're zealous "faith-healing" advocates.

When children reach the age of majority, their ability to exercise their rights and make choices is premised on how well-informed they are.

After all, we can see what Fred Phelps has done with his children, right?

AMEN BROTHER!!!

"interact in a diverse society"

is diverse about it?

But it's the parent's rights to decide how to use that authority

The distinction seems lost on folks these days. :shrug:

I sure as hell would not allow the government to take over parenting or decision making for my child.

:shrug:

the behavior of three psychotic women?

The argument against "government interference" is the same crap as the corporatists spew regarding regulations. The notion that people (whether parents or businessmen) will "do the right thing" or "have some inalienable right" to do whatever they please with what's "theirs" is total horseshit. That's why we have laws! Laws are the epitome of "government interference"! There is no fucking argument about whether government should decide what's best - only an argument about what "best" means. That's why people must participate in their own governance! Democracy isn't a spectator sport. We must make our own laws. Every time I hear the spewage about someone having autonomy - free from government interference - I hear someone who just doesn't fucking understand what democracy requires. We are the government and, as soon as anyone doesn't believe so, they should be in the streets taking it back! There just ain't no middle ground.

We don't live in a police state. People really do have rights here.

After all, thinking just comes naturally, right? After all, the term 'fallacy' is just philosophical crap for the intellectual elite.

:eyes:

FWIW ... making reference to the three mothers who murdered their children could be regarded as a fallacy called a "Bad Company Fallacy" or "Company that You Keep Fallacy" (or possibly a Genetic Fallacy) if and only if there was some kind of argument other than a mere assertion proposed. But you made an assertion, not an argument. The only 'logic' involved in an assertion is the (parental) "because I say so" tautology - which makes the rejoinder perfectly appropriate.

Oh wait that would be people, whose views are as suspect as mine or anyone elses. We have free will and brains and yes people make mistakes, but that doesn't mean that some oversight board will do any better.

So for diversity...what do you do about areas that are all white and not a minority within 50 miles. Do we force minorities to move in so the children grow up in a diverse area. What about Japan, they do just fine and they are one of the most un-diverse countires in the world.

People have the right, but unfortunately, my experience with home schoolers was that their parents had no business playing teacher.

have home schooled their children and done a fantastic job. It all depends.

n/t

I know two families who are brainwashing their children right now. Once their kids go out from that Bubble their parents placed them in, they will be looked upon as idiot rejects.

While they may excel in some areas, I have found that most of them are fundies and lean right-wing. Many of them don't know how to function in a regular classroom situation.

One of the women who takes voice with me home-schools her kids. I took her teenage daughter out to lunch one day and she asked me why I didn't believe in the Bible / Christianity / etc. I looked the kid in the eye and said, "Because it's not true. The whole Jesus myth was built on pagan religions that pre-dated Christianity by centuries." I could tell I'd blown the kid's mind. She'd never heard a dissenting view in her life.

I pushed my luck by saying, "Look, when I was your age, I believed, too. It was because it was all I had ever known. My parents, my school, my church--all of them pushed the same message down my throat and I didn't have another choice."

She looked me in the eye and said, "My beliefs are not based on the beliefs of my parents." Yeah, right, kid. :) I used to think the same thing. :)

Her mother supports * and the war in Iraq. One of her kids fought in Afghanistan and another in Iraq, I believe. The lady herself is nice enough, but I have trust issues with fundies. They'll stab you in the back if you give them half a chance.

I agree with you that this is not the best way to learn about the world, but that is their right.

trumps the kid's right to an education?

...whether or not the child is getting a proper education. I didn't say that I liked it. I wish everyone would put their kids in public schools and that all public schools were equally and adequately funded, but I don't think that in a true democracy we can force people to put their kids in public schools. It would smack of state-required "indoctrination". Besides, what if it were so, but at some later point in time, the fundies were able to get prayer to be a requirement in public school? I'd want the option to keep my kids out of that kind of mess.

I agree with you... as long as you do not want to make private and home schooling against the law. I think people should be allowed to make such descions instead of being told where and what their children will learn.

That is after the kid gets home from a public school, then fine.

But their right to home school infringes on my rights...

Basically by depriving their kids of a true cirriculum, they lower the standard for everyone, making the US a less competitive option for technological firms looking to locate in the US.

if you send your kid to Choate or Deerfield or wherever you're really lowering test scores. It's unfair that some people can afford to send their kids to elite schools, but hey, that's life isn't it? As far as home schooling goes, my right to raise my children as I see fit is every bit as basic as your claimed right to make society safe by mandating that private schools and home schooling be outlawed. No. Thank. You.

How does that infringe on any of your rights? I've never gotten a college degree, am I bringing the standards of the US down... My parents sent me to a Catholic high school, I don't ever recall drinking the cool aid (so to speak). I've managed to grow into a healthy, intelligent, compassionate, proudly Democratic man. I've self taught myself computers and am now a respected IT professional that makes a six figure salary (and have been for many years).

I definitely agree that home schooling and private schooling are not the best options for educating children. I cannot however, advocate forcing someone else to educate their children in the manner I see fit instead of how they see fit.

...my argument against "high end" private schools is that it is a 'special right' reserved for the rich. If your parents didn't have the money for your schooling, you wouldn't have gone. There are many out there denied this opportunity. Public Schooling can help equalize us.

Again though... I simply cannot advocate forcing another to educate their children in any certain manner. It just strikes me as the wrong thing to do.

:eyes:

I did because I worked for it.

I taught briefly at a very good private school that I could never have paid for.

On the other hand, some of my students were completely unable to pay for it. Some had loans. Some had grants.

And lots of times the rich kids didn't know--or care--who the poor ones were, and vice-versa, until late in the game, if ever.

public education when you are on an operating table or a defendant in a law suit.

Children are not identical in their needs. Families are not identical in their needs.

Basically you are saying you want to control education so you can control people's political beliefs. That is not what this country is about. Really, that makes GWB look like a liberal!

Scary, especially coupled with the fact that you seem completely obvlious to the more liberal/progressive movements of home schooling that began some time ago. Or the various private schools without religious affiliation.

"Basically by depriving their kids of a true cirriculum,"

What pray tell would that be? What is learned in public school? I want public schools improved. I don't see it as an either or situation where some must be outlawed to allow the other to flourish.

"they lower the standard for everyone,"

No, the government has. Home schoolers and private schools do not petition for easier testing. Wimpy pols who don't like how the numbers look, do.

"making the US a less competitive option for technological firms looking to locate in the US."

Its not the level of workforce education as much as price of labor that affects this.

On edit: I wanted to say this call for such serious social engieering with apparent little understanding of the "problem" in hopes that the draconian actions will result in the desired income, means someone did not read their history dealing with Stalin;s agricultural experiment or Mao's cultural revolution.

curriculum standards and the kids have to pass state standardized tests.

The standardized tests can only test so much...and chances are they might skip over that whole natural selection part of the science cirriculum

than fact.

And they are basic - very basic. At the same time, they are very selective on what is covered. Basic Math not extending into algebra, almost no science, some reading comprehension and some grammar.

basic geometry a writing test and for those kids who take algebra in eighth grade,an end of curriculum algebra test that they must score greater than 90 percent or repeat the course. They also include reading comprehension.

Don't blame homeschooling if you think the state has poor standards.

of her children for several years because she had a beef with the school district. I would frequently run into her and her kids at Starbucks, the market, etc. during school hours. She apparently wasn't going to let her children's education get in the way of taking care of her chores. When I asked her about the curriculum, she told me the district provided her with some guidelines, but she preferred to "do her own thing."

The local schools around here aren't perfect, but at least the teachers have college educations, teaching credentials, and state education standards to follow.

Hs'ing is MUCH more efficient than trying to teach a classroom full of 30 kids. You can cover twice the material in half the time!

Besides, haven't you ever heard of CARschooling?

:rofl:

FYI - Learning takes place everywhere. That "socialization" you think kids are missing out on? Hs'ers aren't - they're OUT in the REAL WORLD - every day - at Starbucks, at the Grocery. They're figuring discounts and change. Finding out about price per ounce. Is it a "bargain" or not just because it "says" sale. Reading labels. Finding out about commerce. Meeting and greeting a variety of people throughout the neighborhood regularly.

"Curriculums" are decided upon by small group of individuals who *think* this textbook looks good - or that "lesson plan" is great. Curriculums are moneymakers for the Neil Bush's of the world. They're artificial "lessons" designed by people who *think* that "this bit" and "that piece" is important - and they tend to leave out a whole lot of important bits and pieces. For instance, African American and Women's contributions to America aren't relegated to a "supplementary paragraph.


Real depth and breadth of learning can take place - a kid can go further, higher, deeper - than most classrooms can ever allow. Or conversely - maybe your child doesn't NEED to do 45 problems of the exact same "type" in order to learn (hint - most kids don't, btw.) They don't NEED to have the "lesson" repeated 17 times in order to "get it". They don't have to do 4 hours of homework -('cause it's ALL homework! lol)

Most seasoned hs'ers "do their own thing". No kid (in the real world) is EVER on "A" grade level. They're ahead here, behind there, average in this, gifted at that. Getting a "sixth grade" curriculum is geared towards non-existent "average" kid.

Standards and curriculums vary from school to school, district to district, and vastly from state to state. Whose standards and curriculums should we be using? From the state that "ranks" highest or lowest? (And who decides those rankings - and upon what criteria, btw?)

Some state's standards are so loose as to be almost non-existent.

:)

There are varying degrees of it - and for some kids - it's GREAT!

A motivated self-led learner doesn't "need" to be "taught". Ever heard the word 'auto-didact'?

We're not radical unschoolers - but were are an electic unschooly-ish interest-centered learning environment.

Works for my kid.

I tell most people, I don't really "teach" my kid - I'm his facilitator. I procure the materials, take him where he needs to go, answer any questions he may have, help him find answers I may not have, and occasionally I have to "nudge" him to DO SOMETHING! But for the most part, he's smart, he likes to learn - and I mean really LEARN - not surface "memorization" for a test that he promptly forgets.

Lest you think he's an "exception" - in the group of kids we hang out with - that description can pretty well sum up the majority of them.

People who hs for EDUCATIONAL reasons are a far cry from religious hs'ers. And FYI - most religious hs'ers aren't unschoolers. Most use "canned curriculum" and basically recreate "school at home". Tests, Lists, everything. Blech.


Reminds me of the kid who wanted to know what my son got on his report card.

son: "I don't get report cards. I homeschool, remember"?

kid: "Well, how do you what grade you got?"

son: "I don't get GRADES."

kid: (Puzzled look) "You don't get grades? Then how do you know if you LEARNED anything?"

SIGH..............

It is up to the state to decide what, if any, standards it wishes to apply to home schooling.

My MIL has chosen to homeschool my little sister, who is now 15.. which she has no business doing because she barely has a remedial understanding of most subjects, is not a teacher and has been out of school for 3 decades.. but that is besides the point and a bit of a vent.

In California there are no standardized tests required for homeschoolers. All they have to do is present an attendance roster. I am absolutely appauled that there are no checks and balances in place to make sure that kids are being taught on level. Infact, since my mil is technically her own private school she can give my sis a hs diploma without ever giving her a single test.

lack of social interaction, which is half of your education is public or private school, in my opinion. I don't see anything wrong with private school. If the parents want to send their kids to private school that's their choice, but make sure the teachers there are qualified just as well if not better than public school teachers. Most of the private schools I know do include things like creationism but also talk about evolution since the kids will see it in college.

:p

It's the religious fundamentalists' concept of home schooling that should be avoided, though. That's just brainwashing.

I knew a fundie homeschooler who took her oldest kid from a C- average and lagging sharply in the standardized tests to A+ and in the top 5% percentile in two years.

She pulled her oldest kid out at the end of 8th grade, and she started back in 11th grade. Not only that, but she tested out of enough courses to have enough credit amassed that she graduated a year early.

She was taught creationism, what the parents believed, in parallel with evolution, what was on the tests she'd have to take. But that was always the case.

I looked at a religion-based curriculum a couple of months ago, and thought it very strange. But then I looked at a secular-based curriculum, and thought that very strange, too.

Why people would want to segregate their kids is a puzzler. Yes, they won't learn the street language quite as fast, and yes, you can control which perspective they get in social issues. History is history, and shouldn't be tampered with.
Eventually those kids will have to function in the real world, and it will be an awakening. Not everyone is nice, not everyone is fair, and not everyone is honest. I think the public school kids get a much more well rounded education in life.

...literature in my old-fashioned Catholic school more than forty years ago (I won't say how many more, thanks very much) than my public-school cohorts received. The academic rigor of that school was far greater than almost all of the public schools in surrounding neighborhoods. The problem isn't schools run by/for religious denominations, it's institutions labelled "school" that function as disinformation and indoctrination facilities.

There is just so much wrong with the WHOLE education-- well, can't call it a 'system,' can we? The whole education schmear, then-- in America that I am not really comfortable with any blanket condemnation of any category of attempts to educate. Every category contains those sincerely attempting to impart real education, those playing along because it's the least cost and effort and they don't give a damn' anyway, and those deliberately twisting the process for their own misbegotten ends.

That said, I agree with the nub of your gist, which is that in order to establish, maintain, and prosper as a democratic society, we need a strong, functional public education system as the norm for the overwhelming majority of our citizenry. When we lost that, the loss of democracy was inevitable within thirty years. No one can legitimately be 'surprised' to watch it slipping through our fingers now.

sadly,
Bright

Maybe you should take that up with the generations of people who went through Catholic schools. The standards there can be pretty rigorous.

They do have very rigorous standards, and have always seen themselves as more college preparatory than high school - which is good.

However, just think if those same energies were applied to public schools?

That's why I have my kids in a Catholic school--it is a better place for us, faith-wise and all.

I was against them until I taught in them. I didn't find them to be pedantic, horribly religious places but instead solid communities that didn't shrink from dealing with hard issues, were committed to the highest standards for all students (even ones with IEPs and kids from horrible backgrounds), and did their best with the resources they had.

They are the right places for some students and families. In this pluralistic society, we should allow for the choice to educate our children as best as we see fit. The beauty of the American system is that the kids have many options for secondary education, whether through colleges, community colleges, or other schools.

Called the army of God,most of the kids were home schooled and they showed kids going to a college sponsered by RR kooks.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3519855663545752103

I do think people should have the right to homeschool. Probably many of those kids would be better off spending a few hours a day away from their parents, but no child should be forced to attend a shitty public school either.

One of my sons is showing signs of becoming a very eccentric, very sensitive little oddball. Just like me. Frankly, the torment and abuse I suffered in school and on the bus did not make me a stronger or better person. I've told my son that if school ever gets too bad, particularly during the middle school years, I'll homeschool him for a few years.

But in general I think our resources should be focussed on improving public schools and supporting them. If the public education system falls apart in this country, I don't think we could claim to have a democracy anymore. (Of course, some might argue we don't have one at the moment, but that a different thread :crazy: )

;)

and i'm a big supporter of it. My folks were poor, but scrapped by enough to send me to a Catholic school through grade school. I wanted to go to school with my friends, and that meant going to the Catholic high school, but there wasn't any way for my family to send my and my brothers and sister. The tuition alone for all of us would have been more than my folks earned annually. Thankfully, the administration set up a deal where each of the kids in my family could pay $50 per month to cover our tuition. That meant we got paper routes, and worked at the local supermarket. Paying my own way gave each of us a new prospective on our education, as it became something we owned.

By the time i got to college, at a Big Ten school, the head start i had because of my private education was easy to see. The simple ability to write clearly, allowed an average student like myself, to stay on the Dean's list. Thus, graduating on time, and having multiple job offers waiting for me, were the result. I credit all of this to the education i received in grade school and high school.

I hope one day to send my kids to a private school. It gives them a real advantage.

I completely disagree. I may be a hard-bitten strong atheist with a grudge against the RC Church, but I must say that I received an excellent education in my 12 years of Catholic school (as well as an excellent one at my public university). And as one who plans to homeschool, I and every other progressive HS'er takes exception to your ill-informed broad-brush description of homeschooling. May I invite you to the HS Group here on DU? You will replace your ignorance with information.

As for public schools: As I said above, my public university education was excellent. But the public schools I would have gone to for my el-hi education were not. Why should I have received an inferior education when better was available? Public schools will always be a local/municipal/statewide effort, not nationwide; looking to it as the basis for a "One America" will never work.

That's not my point. My point is that if you are allowed to home school your kid, the Reverend Fred Phelps can too. And if he can do it, just imagine what he puts forth as "truth." All of his kids are home schooled - look how they turned out.

Granted not all homeschoolers will be Phelps', but enough will. Allowing homeschooling is giving carte blanche to the religious nuts to brainwash their kids.

Even if you don't, there are plenty who will - and I don't want them sharing my world.

school as well. They can brainwash their kids that attend public school as easily as if they are at home-after all, public school is 180 days 6-7 hours a day. The rest of the 365 days they are where Mom and Dad want them to be.

Fundies homeschooling their kids is an almost CERTAIN recipe for the perpetuation of their insanity.

At least with public school, the kid is exposed to other options.

It kills diversity. Diversity can sometimes be messy, but there is a balance in nature. Standardization destroys that balance.

But then humans have no counter-balance right now. Because of that, we've built this giant entity, in which there is no balance, and to keep some type of order, we must kill diversity.

fit? Religious nuts will brainwash their kids anyway. Some will grow out of it; some won't. I say that we not restrict freedom because we don't like what some will do with it.

I don't remember disagreeing with a post of yours before this thread.

For clarification: although I don't want them sharing my world, I do not believe I have the right to make that decision.

attended public schools. Look how well that worked out. :sarcasm:

Do you really think his kids are going to turn out any different if they go to a public school?

Public schools don't exist for indoctrination anyway.

you're crazy.
I've been homeschooling my kids for years and believe it is the best thing for them.
I have never understood why so may Democrats are against the idea of children being schooled at home.
:shrug:
I'm not sure how educated you are on the subject but please be sure not all home schoolers are right wing nut cases.

We have a hs'er group on here - come on over!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=251

I've been around a long time but mostly read without posting.
Busy homeschooling the kids you know:)

:-)

The problem with defining "one America" as being schooled together is that it gives those who dissent from what the mainstream thinks no recourse. We should be free to kids wherever we want, be it public school, the montessori school, the episcopal school, the catholic school, the lutheran school, the fancy-pants prep school, the special needs school, or even the "evangelical" school

"Parents are parents, but they are not teachers."

I'd like to suggest that parents are in fact teachers, every moment of every day. Parents fail most when they fail to uphold their responsibilities as teachers of their children. We teach our children to speak, to bathe, clothe, and feed themselves, to behave with affection or aggression, and I say this final note optimistically, we teach our children how to think, discern, evaluate, and decide.

Broad-brushing homeschoolers doesn't advance your argument. My mother teaches teaching methods and language arts courses to elementary education majors at a large state university. She is at last beginning to encounter college students who were homeschooled. She's found that of those students, about half are narrow-minded, politically/religiously conservative, teach-to-the-test & fill-in-the-blank young drones. The other half of those homeschooled undergraduates are bright, inquisitive, critically-minded and intellectually curious. As well, Mother D has been in elementary education (serving many different roles) for 40+ years. She is an advocate for children and their intellects. After all these years in the field, working with teachers, parents, students, and administrators, she's said to me that if she were to have children today... she would homeschool, because the state of public schools has been so undermined by the political system.

and i'm not apologizing for it.

At least here in California, parochial and private schools are subject to the same state accreditation standards as public schools. They have to follow exactly the same regulations on health, safety, non-discrimination, etc. We also have a statewide exam that all students, including home-schooled ones, must pass in order to graduate. I think you are making an unfounded assumption that all Christian or religious schools have an anti-science agenda.

Religious schools do not provide a true education. They skirt issues in history, science and literature that do not advance their goals.

That is an overgeneralization at best. Some of the best high schools in my area (San Diego) are Catholic. Students there get a very well-rounded education and come out well prepared for higher education.

Homeschooling should be flat out eliminated.

That is close to qualifying as Commie bullcrap. No, it is Commie bullcrap. This is the USA. What about liberty? What about personal choice? What about parents passing their own values on to their children, as is their right? What about public schools that suck?

If parents can turn out kids who can pass the high school completion exam and qualify to get into colleges and universities, what's it to you? Do you really want government to have a monopoly on what peoples' children are taught? It may seem good if people you are generally in agreement with are in control of the state, but what about the future? Remember, power corrupts. Ability to control what is being fed to impressionable young minds, combined with the force of law making that brand of schooling compulsory, sets the stage for mass brain-washing and generations of single-party rule.

That party might not always be yours.

Academic findings
The academic effectiveness of home education is largely a settled issue. Numerous studies have confirmed the academic integrity of home education programs, demonstrating that on average, home-educated students outperform their publicly-run school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. Moreover, the performance gaps between minorities and gender that plague publicly-run schools are virtually non-existent amongst home-educated students.<13>

Some critics argue that while home-educated students generally do extremely well on standardized tests<14>, such students are a self-selected group whose parents care strongly about their education and would also do well in a conventional school environment.

Some opponents argue that parents with little training in education are less effective in teaching. However, some studies do indicate that parental income and education level affect home-educated student performance on standardized tests very little.

Home-educated student curricula often include many subjects not included in traditional curricula. Some colleges find this an advantage in creating a more academically diverse student body, and proponents argue this creates a more well-rounded and self-sufficient adult. Increasingly, colleges are recruiting home-educated students; many colleges accept equivalency diplomas as well as parent statements and portfolios of student work as admission criteria; others also require SATs or other standardized tests. Some opponents argue that home education curricula often exclude critical subjects and isolate the student from the rest of society, or presents them with ideological world views, especially religious ones.

The results of home education with gifted and learning-disabled children have not been as thoroughly studied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Academic_findings

special education students are being homeschooled as are taught in public schools.

Until then, apples and oranges.

we would most like to receive a traditional type education with a trained specialist. To me your statement does not make sense. Parents of special needs kids often need training just in ADL's, let alone schooling. Besides, these are the parents that most need a break each day since they are on duty with these kids 24/7. Yes it is apples to oranges and will always be. IMO.

the academic success of homeschooled children with that of the general population. The general school population has some kids with special needs in it, and some kids who don't qualify as having a disability, but have IQs of 82. With an IQ of 82, you're going to struggle in school.

So, the numbers held up for comparison are, basically, garbage and mean nothing.

:popcorn:

(however, I kinda agree with you)

...so I can certainly understand the arguments favoring free public education for all, and I'm generally sympathetic to them. That said, my daughter home schooled for much of her education, and was enrolled in private school for most of the rest. The local public schools simply did not serve her needs well. That's not a general indictment of public schooling, nor a broad acceptance of the arguments in favor of private school vouchers or anything like that-- it's simply a recognition that a broad array of choices is better than a narrow array.

"That's not a general indictment of public schooling, nor a broad acceptance of the arguments in favor of private school vouchers or anything like that-- it's simply a recognition that a broad array of choices is better than a narrow array."

This sums it up perfectly for me.

My little sister went to public school all her life until high school when she switched to the local Catholic school because she had issues with her group of friends and drug use. She's the one who actually finished her college degree.

You cannot force people against their will. That's un-American.

would have been called truancy.

and while I don't agree with them 100%, I can see where they might have a point in some areas--there really is only so much a school can do with teachers having 30+ students at a time, and the necessity to reach them all. I personally would like to supplement a child, if I had one, with a wide variety of interests, instruction and lessons after school to pique their interest in many areas.

On the other hand, I don't like what the RRR has done to homeschooling, and when I read articles in different magazines not known for a liberal bias, all I have to do is look at a picture to reinforce my rather terrible opinion of parents who homeschool for none other than religious reasons. They either look like the ultimate rednecks, or they look like the ultimate in evangelical baptist prim and proper duds, or they look like something the cat dragged in. Sorry I'm generalizing here, and I admit that, but there really is a common theme with many, if not all, ranting and raving RRR homeschooling parents.

One thing which never fails to irk me in particular is how homeschooled children not only never learn to properly interact with other kids in a social setting, but problem children can not and are not dealt with in a clinical environment. There is no social worker or psychiatrist to followup with children who show clear signs of abnormal behavior which can and eventually will likely manifest itself as a major psychosis, sociopathic disorder, or even borderline personality disorder. Trends in mental dysfunction are created in childhood, from how a child is raised. If a child is not screened by the public school system for placement when and where necessary, these children literally escape through the loophole of isolation, and will likely be and create problems well into adulthood--not only that, but they can wreak terror and horror while they continue to live in a mainstream environment. Left to their own devices, such children will make abberant behavior their normal behavior, and thus end up with a tenuous hold on both sanity and reality. An example of this is how it has been established that children who abuse animals have been likely abused themselves, and many animal abusers grown up with significant problems to be a menace to society at large. Nipping this behavior at the child abuse stage can and will likely help many of these children break an unhealthy cycle earlier in life, and could place them back in a far more nurturing situation.

But the most important thing about many homeschooled children of the RRR type is that they suffer from the lack of knowledge that children in public schools will get. There are so many incidental topics which the homeschooler will never be aware of, and their education will be lacking in such a wide variety of topics that they will be stunted for the rest of their lives. I have no facts to back me up on this, but my presumption is that RRR homeschooled children will likely not be finding jobs as physicists, doctors, or other highly technical positions, and if they manage to get such positions, they will likely be among the most anti-social people ever raised.

I am of the mind that parents should be involved with their children's educations to the extent that they know what their children are learning, and try to supplement that education through some form of additional educational resources. Most cities have night and weekend classes in a wide variety of avocations and hobbies, and many children would enjoy those topics. Parents could take time to teach their children about whatever hobbies that they themselves enjoy as well, and try to foster a sense of enjoyment at things which have been missing from most of our lives in the past 40 years or so. I recall in my own youth that learning to cook, knit, crochet, clean fish, plant a garden, and other such things was still taught to families, but nowadays, I see less and less domestic crafting being relayed to children. I think a child who knows how to cook, for example, male or female, deserves kudos for having interest in something so necessary to enjoyment of life.

Children need to be apart from their parents for times growing up. They need to recognize their own individuality and independence. And until they can realize that homeschooling only delays that separation, they are almost always going to deal with the issues that arise a little later in their lives.

that our model of classroom education is very recent. Two centuries ago children were educated at home.

I am a teacher but I see a big problem with the classroom model. At no time in his/her life will any child (or adult) ever again be segregated by age into groups. Life is far more random than that. Getting along with 30 kids at once is a skill that usually only the most socially adept kids master. Many cope by turning inwards. Many cope by acting out. Some opt out and quit.

There is nothing natural about socializing children in the warehouses that are our schools, and were basically developed to care for children while their parents work. They are the cheapest and most "efficient" way to do so.

Here's the deal: The public school nearest my home blows goats. There is no fucking way that they can deal with LeftyKid's academic advancement, his behavioral issues and his extensive food allergies and sensitivities and honestly I don't think they could even be counted on to try. He becomes highly overstimulated by crowds and loud noise- a room full of five year olds would be pure torture for him. At some point when he's a bit older going to school may be possible, but right now it's simply not so and it makes much more sense to teach him at home. Apparently it's working, he's barely five and already well ahead of the kindy graduates in most things.

You seem to be under the impression that most homeschoolers are trying to restrict thier child's learning or to instill religious teachings. The majority of homeschoolers have more practical or academic concerns, the fundies are actually smaller subset of the homeschooling movement.

Additionally you asserted that no other civilized country allows homeschooling. That's simply not the case- the only first world country I can think of off the top of my head where homeschooling is absolutely illegal is Germany. It's definitely legal in Canada, the UK, Japan, Sweden, the Netherlands and Spain, although the ease of getting legal approval varies.

;)

Look I know not all homeschoolers are Rev. Phelps, but enough are to make homeschooling a dangerous proposition. Give them an inch, they take the whole playground and kick you off it.

My solution is to make our public schools better. Plain and simple. And how can we achieve that when enough of us don't even send our kids to public school?

there are always going to be a certain subset of kids who aren't served well by education tailored to the group because of medical, academic or social needs. No amount of making public schools better will help a kid whose capabilities are years ahead of thier grade level, one who can't concentrate in a classroom setting or one who has a need to focus on an exceptional talent in one subject area- those are just things that mass education isn't well equiped to handle.

Are they going to find the resources they need from homeschooling? From a parent who probably doesn't even know how to differentiate ADHD from Aspbergers?

Interlibrary loans are fabulous things and there is a great deal of community suppourt and expertise available to those who avail themselves of it. :) Really though, for most poor families the choice is between a parent who already knows the child's idiosyncracies and has coping strategies for them versus a stranger who will take much of the year learning enough about the kid to deal. For a lot of kids undivided amateur attention is a great improvement over the divided attention of a series of overworked and generally undertrained professionals. Parents are best equipped to make that choice, since they know thier children best.

Unless you are well trained in the subject...

For example, mild aspbergers is often mistakenly diagnosed as ADHD...however the treatment for these needs is radically different.

School-based diagnosis is a problem and to be avoided, as it's often more faddish and convenience-oriented than scientific.

that her son -- as a consequence -- didn't get a diagnosis of dyslexia until he was in the 10th grade.

He must have managed to scrape by on the required tests, as many bright dyslexics can do. But the mother didn't have the background to diagnose his dyslexia, or even to know that he had a problem and should be evaluated by someone.

I suppose the parents must have thought he wasn't really trying. Or that he was a "difficult" child.

First of all special education personnel who evaluate children for disabilities in schools are at least Master's level clinicians and fully licensed or certified by their states to both diagnose a condition and certify that a child has a disability in order to receive special education services. That's not an opinion, that's fact. You are welcome to check the regulations in your state to learn what is required.

And...if I had a quarter for every physician who missed a diagnosis of Autism or who misdiagnosed kids with Bipolar, I'd be a very rich lady. As it is, I can tell you that evaluations by schools are credible despite the occasional bad apple who is usually just inexperienced. All evaluators must rely on standard research based eval. tools (scientific) unlike physicians who usually don't even trouble to learn how a kid does in school FROM the school.

Your statement is at best misleading and at worst, ignorant.

NOT!

WTF are you talking about? Some parents are educating their children at home because they will get a better education, have freedom to pursue their own interests and not have to deal with the crap our society and immoral culture is throwing at our children right now. We have kids giving eachother oral sex in middle school, so many fucked up behavioral problems that teachers only have time for the 'problem' children, everyone forced to fit the mold, teachers forced to teach to the test for Bush's ridiculous no child left behind bullshit....and they are actually handing out pro-Bush propaganda to the school children....

but the only way to bring your children up right is send them right into the mess eh?

I remember that going on in the 80's...when I was in school. Oral sex in middle school is a media event, another scare tactic made to sell copy.

And yes, we need to overhaul our public schools, but how are we going to do that if we are sending our kids to private schools and homeschooling them?

believe in supporting the public schools. Sometimes a particular child needs something different.

And sometimes there's a different issue involved.

What if you lived in some fundie town in Mississippi, where the public school was controlled by the fundies? Is that where you would want your child to attend school? Or perhaps you would decide that home-schooling was a good idea after all . . . or you might decide to send your kid to the Catholic school, even if you weren't Catholic.

That's what some non-Catholic friends of mine did, come to think of it, when faced with the same situation. Except the schools they were trying to avoid were "public" schools in Salt Lake City. My friend said that most of the non-Mormons there (Protestant, Jewish, etc., ) send their kids to Catholic schools, because the public schools are so heavily Mormon-influenced. At the Catholic schools they were exposed to religion in the religion classes -- but also to real science in the science classes.

I was all about public schools until I had kids. And then the thought of putting
my little guys into Unified Hell caused me to see things differently.

Public schools are a mess here in L.A. The irony is that the people who didn't want
to pay the property taxes necessary to sustain quality public schools are now
shelling out 10 grand plus to send their kids to some private place.

Funny old world ..

Kids with above intelligence and/or learning disabilites greatly benefit from home schooling and private schools. As a teacher and someone related to a GTLD student. Some schools do a world of good.

Parents should be able to have choice when it comes to the education of their children. You may not agree with what they're being taught, but on that same end, parents may not agree with a cirriculem offered by someone else.

Think of it this way. If the only place a child could be educated was in a public school, should the sort of govermnet we have now have the right to say what is taught? We could wind up with a lot of undesirable content being taught to our children.

Parents should have these options available and don't think that all private schools are religious. Same goes for home schooling. Many are secular in nature and some parents feel that public schools do such a poor job, they prefer a more thorough education they'd rather home school.

The only thing I would say is that no public money should go for home schooling and none for private schools. They should be privately funded.

The more choices the better.

have. I know my parents sent me to parochial school, not because they wanted me to be a good Catholic but because the public school I was attending had become completely dysfunctional. We were doing sports, art and music all the time with very little learning of anything else.

I had to be tutored after school once I transferred to catch up in reading, math, history and other subjects that were practically missing from the curriculum at the local public school which was doing some experimental (but failed) program.

I also had a friend who home schooled her two kids because they were constantly being beaten up by school bullies. She didn't want to, but it became her only option for a couple of years until they could go to another school.

I don't believe in giving school vouchers to parents who choose to send their kids to private school because I believe the tax money should go to public education. I also think parents need to be qualified before they home school their kids like they should be tested on the basics they will be teaching so that they follow an acceptable curriculum and know what they are teaching.

However, sometimes while our school districts and legislatures are trying to fix problems in the public schools it may be a parents only option to do one or the other. In other words, it should be a choice. The alternatives like private schools or home schooling should be regulated and accredited of course.

While they were living in Virginia, the public schools available to them were out of control with behavior problems. Their three children were neither safe nor getting an education.

The solution was to send them all to a parochial school. The kids did fine, and have all excelled in school since then.

The father of the family is a lifelong atheist whom I have known since we were 10 years old. He was pretty sheepish when he told me he'd sent his kids to Christ Lutheran.

and I can honestly say, I received a better education in the private school. I went to a small private Catholic school up until grade 5 when my parents put me in public school (private school's tuition was too high and my father had lost his job). When I went to my first day at public school, all of my books were the same as the ones I had in private school the year before. All of 5th grade was review from the year before and the teachers were more likely to limit self expression or limit other teaching methods such as poetry. I had started writing poetry in 3rd grade and my class had published a book of poems - it wasn't until high school that we were taught poetry again. I was also appalled by the behavior of the children at public school. Say what you will about Catholic School discipline, but the kids in my class rarely acted up in contrast with the kids in my class at public school. We were also taught very early on the concept of compassion and how to take care of one another and not to laugh at someone if they fell down... another stark contrast to public school where the kids would shun you if you happened to get a higher grade or ran faster than another kid (elementary school clicks were worse than anything I have ever experienced before or since). As far as what the curriculum taught us about science and history... well, that's just your assumption. In second grade we were studying solar energy and in fourth grade we studied the Oregon Trail and went on field trips to the McLaughlin House (in Oregon City)and the state capitol. Granted, the private school I went to only went up to grade 6, so we never got into the evolution debate and we were taught creationism - in our Religion course - but up until that point everything I was taught in private school was just as good or better than what I was taught in public school.

and cost a bundle. And you don't have the right to get out of paying school taxes if you opt to put your kid in a private school.

That being said.. private schools are not better than public ones.

Public schools can be excellent. Look at Canada!

good school districts. I am fortunate enough to live in an area made up of parents and we have really good schools here.

especially in the British empire.. because it meant there was no difference in how kids dressed and people were worried when they stopped using school uniforms that some kids would have more clothes than others.. and that would get in the way of all hanging out together and being children instead of little marketing receptors. That was before marketing was so big.

corporate schools spoon fed 'knowledge by half', in the form of educational software compiled by the likes of Neil Bush, and funded via earmarked donations to that very same Neil Bush by his mother Babs (beautiful mind) Bush is, imo, a source of common denominator-low, to mid grade garden variety evil

Law Schools...

I can't say it is a good thing or a bad thing...I have a special needs child and I live in a great district. In fact my son will attend school all next week to build on his english comprehension skills...all paid for by public school taxes.. I love it...it is great.

Personally those parents who live in horrid school districts have to first see if they can fix the problem...for their child as well as others...by running for school board and getting involved. This is very important.

If you can't fix the school..then the choices are moving...or sending kids to private schools or homeschooling.

Now personally I don't make enough to send my kids to private schools and while I am college educated and educationally well rounded...I wouldn't home school....although technically I augment my children's education with work at home...but that is at my pace..etc

Now...there are parents who think the sun rises and sets upon their progeny..and they set up those progeny to have unrealistic expectations of what life has in store for them...While I am all for independent thought and spirit....you still have to learn how to get along and behave in the world...otherwise you will be sorely disappointed.

**note I have met a lot of home schooled children because of my son's disorder and the parent work groups...sadly..those children are not the success cases you read about here on DU.

Benjamin Franklin! I'm a relation of his and happen to
be of the same opinion.

And plenty of religious schools are liberal or only nominally religious. I've always said that the Left should invest in private schools as well, to build up a private school network that rivals what the Right has. I of course support the public schools as well.

I would have a serious problem with the government telling people that cannot attend private school or partake in homeschooling. Reasonable regulations of these schooling approaches is one thing, but to forbid them by act of government is a very bad, and totalitarian, idea.

but forcing people to do things or not do things is always against my principles. There is too much government coercion, not too little. It befalls the colleges and universities and employers to reject applicants whose schooling followed substandard curricula.

I learned more on my own then I ever goddamn did in that pathetic institution they called public school.

Private school, public school, home school... ...In the end it all simply just comes down to the goddamn teacher.

homeschoolers.

The reasons for doing it vary.

I think a one size fit all school as you suggest hurts kids and families.

A family should have the right to chose how to raise their own family.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1460028

AVA is homeschooled. Still think all hs'ers are ignorant non-socialized fundies?

Before you take away MY rights to hs MY son because you don't like what SOME hs'ing parents are doing, make sure you understand exactly who is hs'ing and why and how. You know very little about the topic and your assumptions are way off base for the vast majority of people I know!

Your arguments make no sense, Taverner. I understand your frustration, but - HS'ing is the absolute BEST option for SOME kids and some families. Sure, some parents have "no business" hs'ing - but then again - many parents have NO BUSINESS even being a "parent!" But we don't restrict who can HAVE kids. And those fundie parents who are *brainwashing* their hs'd kids - can still brainwash them the rest of the time. In fact, the vast majority of all those ignorant rw fundies who are ruining our nation weren't hs'ed, were they?

Hs'ing is a wonderful way for many kids to learn. They are NOT socially isolated - in fact, I find the socialization we have in the hs'ing community to be superior to what is going on in *most* public schools. There's little of the boy/girl "thing". There's no "my clothes are cooler than yours". There's no bullying. There's a wider age range of kids. There's more freedom. You don't have to raise your hand to go to the bathroom. You don't have to sit bored out of your freaking skull waiting for the troublemakers to be quiet enough so the teacher can repeat the same lesson for the 3rd or 5th time! You don't have mindless "busywork". You don't have hours wasted on a bus.

It's tailored to fit the child's learning style. You can accommodate any LD's and play to a kid's learning strengths. You said it yourself - one-on-one learning is optimal. That's what hs'ing can do. It optimizes the educational process for the individual.

If you're not happy with your public school, and you can't afford your private school - hs'ing may just be an option.

FYI - I am not anti-PS. I graduated one from PS and still have one in PS (he just finished 1st grade). But my soon to be 13 yo son? He'd wither and die in a classroom. He's smart and quirky and learns "differently" than how most schools teach. For him, PS is not an option.

There are more and more liberals hs'ing. More and more parents of gifted and/or learning differenced kids who are hs'ing. Do you want to know why? Because the PS's in their neighborhoods are FAILING to give their children the education they need and deserve.

Want to know what hs'ers call No Child Left Behind?

No Child Gets Ahead!

The teach to the test mentality currently pervading the PS system due to NCLB is killing our children's ability to THINK and to think critically! It's memorize and regurgitate for most classes anymore. They target the non-existent "average" kid - the middle of spectrum kids - and if you're at either end, you're SOL.

We have our very on DU'er hs'ing group. If you really want to know more about it, come visit us. We'll be more than happy to give you a REAL EDUCATION on the subject! :)

I had a private school education at a catholic school and I found myself light years ahead of most of my high school counterparts when I got to public school. I was socially retarded but I was way ahead in the basics.

middle school.

So I'd say that while you may not be crazy you are painting with quite a broad brush since there are many reasons for a parent to choose to home school.

Me, I've found that far too many kids in middle school are NOT angels and I would bet there are more parents like me who don't want their kids exposed to the superficiality and social hell that characterizes the atmosphere at most middle schools.

This includes all age levels from Kindergarten through University.

I do not expect my tax dollars to be spent on any other schooling in the US.

It's a free country. I think home schooling is weird for sure, but to actually BAN both? Is that what you're suggesting? That's a bit heavy handed. I think being an American should entitle one to a quality public education but it shouldn't compel parents to choose public shcool when they are willing to foot the entire bill for a private school.

Home schooling is harder for me to defend. Personally it seems like child abuse to make your kid that socially retarded and isolated, but I suppose if the kid can pass exams to ensure they are learning and they are given some social outlet, I can tolerate it.

But private schools. I have no problem as long as my tax dollars aren't being diverted from public schools to support them. And not all private schools are fundie schools or Catholic schools. Some of them are alot more progressive than public schools. I don't have kids, but if I did (or when I do in the future), I might send my kid to a private school if the learning experience was superior, and I had the means or connections or if they got a scholarship. I can think of some examples of great private schools in my area I'd love to be able to send my child to if I could swing it.

Do you have kids?

What happens when the HS child goes out into the real world of work? The workplace will not set up the job to suit his fancy. I get the impression that homeschooling is more for the bragging rights of the parents.

I don't have any links, but I've heard they do fine. :shrug:

to go to the bathroom?

Do you wait to be told what to do and how?

Are you forced to associate ONLY with people +/- 1 year of age?

Do you change tasks every time the bell rings?

That kind of "work"?


Schools were DESIGNED to produce "factory workers". (If you don't believe me, there is plenty of history of education books on the subject.) Teach 'em enough of the "3-R's" to do what follow directions, without question - but don't question the "supervisor".

Although, it is true that a larger percentage of hs'ers become entrepreneurs than the average ps'er. There's a reason for that. :)

Hs'd kids are NOT locked in a closet. They ARE out in the REAL WORLD every day. Not in some artificially engineered environment of bells, lines, divisions, and constricted activity.

BTW - why in the world would you think hs'ing is for parental "bragging rights?" I'm really curious here.

There are a group of mainly hsing mothers whose kids skate at the local rink. These women act as if they are more superior to mothers who don't or can't homeschool. They also give the impression their kids are too good for the real world.

PA also passed a state law that says the local school districts have to allow hsers to participate in school activities such as band, sports, etc. My question is: What kind of standards are the homeschool kids being held to for participation? A note from their mother saying they're passing math and English? The activities at that school should be for their students only. I look at homeschooling as a private school. That means, you pay for it. I've always been taught in life that you can't have everything both ways.

The above paragraph sounds like a rant. It's not addressed to anyone in particular.

I don't have to raise my hand to go to the restroom at work. Yes, we can question our supervisors if we don't understand something. The only time I change tasks is when one of my supervisors needs me to work in another area.

"women you know". I can, however, comment on human behaviour in regards to people who are "different".

For instance, there's nearly always a flame fest against vegetarians - and *we* get accused of acting "holier-than-thou", too. Or it could be any lifestyle choice difference. Non-smokers. Non-drinkig alcoholics. People who don't walk those paths always seem to think people who DO walk those paths are "lording their difference" over them. Bragging. etc. And - while sometimes that is true, sure - for the most part - what I see/hear is people talking about their lifestyle - why they do/chose it. In the process, they get "questioned" (or outright ATTACKED) so they become defensive - and in addition to pointing out the positives of their chosen lifestyle - they start pointing out the negatives of the lifestyle they left behind.

Most hs'ers are pretty passionate about their choice. We see what a wonderful difference it's made in our children's lives - and so we seem like we're proselytizing all the time. :)


As for allowing kids access to PS - well - some states allow it - some states don't. Kids are still held accountable for their behaviour at the school. And, for the most part, you really DON"T have to worry whether hs kids are "doing the work" - I'm here to tell you - they ARE. Sure, there are some slackers - just like in anything - but from what I can gather (from being on world-wide hs'ing groups) - slacking just is NOT the norm. Quite the opposite.

Funny - some people accuse hs'ers of being slackers. Others accuse hs'ers of being "fanatic overachievers". :shrug:

**I don't have to raise my hand to go to the restroom at work. Yes, we can question our supervisors if we don't understand something. The only time I change tasks is when one of my supervisors needs me to work in another area. **

So in reference back to your comment about "getting a job in the real world". Which child is growing up in a "more real" environment?" Is it the kid sitting in a classroom with 28 other kids +/- 1yr of age. Appx 50/50 sex split; as "racially balanced" as possible (given the area); artificially imposed timelimits on how long you "think" about a topic; artificially imposed criteria - on HOW you think about a topic. "Testing" that emphasises memorization and regurgitation and forget it until the next test - instead of building a interconnected network of critical thinking skills.

What's important? Learning "facts" - or learning how to learn and how to assess what you know, what you don't know, and how to tell the difference?

you ignorant.

would say if I brought in a diploma from home school college...

on-line college? Distance learning? "Weekend college?" That's hs'ing in a nutshell.

Most hs'ers are "better prepared" for college than the typical ps kid. They have better time management skills, they don't wait for the teacher to tell them what to think/do/know, they are more used to digging for more information and not just accepting what the "teacher said".

Colleges/universities are becoming quite eager for hs'ers. They are - overall - more successful in their pursuits. (I don't have the studies handy. I've posted them on DU before sometime in the past year if you want to search for it.)

and early 70s? Of course people home schooled children early than that, but didn't it become popular because of the hippies?

The true fact is many of the home schooled children today are being taught by stupid parents! A right-wing family down the road is home schooling their 5 children by their dropped out of high school mother.

"drop out" of highschool because it's demeaning and boring.

Homeschooling's been around since the dawn of time, btw.

And - er - what's your beef with hippies? Where do you think liberal dems came from?

:rofl:

Students coming from private schools have higher college GPAs than students coming from public schools.

Students of private schools also do better on SATs and other standardized testing.

The students from private schools are recieving better education than the public school students. And that's the problem. Our public school system is so poor right now. My cousin is a public high school teacher. And she says it has turned into such a mess that she's considering going back to college and doing something else.

Our public education system right now is a f------ joke. Teenagers in India are scoring higher on math and science tests than American teens. And you wonder why corporations can't wait to hire those foreign workers.

Students from private schools may have to take a test to get in. Many private schools don't take at risk children, don't take kids with lower IQs, and don't take kids who have special needs. They don't take kids with behavior problems, either.

IF and when private schools do, AND THEY STILL CAN GENERATE kids with higher scores, I'll be duly impressed. Until then? Nope.

Read this: http://www.teachers.net/gazette/JUN02/vollmer.html

Seriously...

If you don't think parents are teachers then I hope you never have kids.

and education should reflect that.

Public schools should be supported by the entire community, because this is the standard default option for all kids. They do not get to pick and choose which kids they educate. Public school should not be a dumping ground as many people seem to think it is. It is most emphatically not.

Private schools get to pick and choose who they accept. They can expel you far easier than a public school, so they can be more stringent on the discipline. They can charge money and thus pay their teachers better and have a bigger budget. You pay to go and then have to do fundraising on the side, as I did. I learned from an early age that sales was not a career I'm particularly suited for.

Homeschooling: The jury is out. If the parents are certified or they find someone who is to teach their children and there are stringent standards, I'm OK with it. Some kids will do great in a homeschool environment and struggle in a classroom with other kids. If I could do my grade school days over, I'd want to be homeschooled. No more bullies, no more being punished for being the victim, no more faculty hypocrisy. It's the ideal way to educate introverts. There are other socialization opportunities outside school. Use them. And if you or your kid is an introvert, live with it. Introverts are not evil as some public figures seem to want to make us out to be. Notice how they described the kids at Columbine and Red Lake Falls.

All this being said, we should support public schools. Make it a choice that parents would want to choose, rather than making it the last ditch default. It can be done, but it needs community commitment and no more unfunded mandates.

They attend a yeshiva ketana.

My daughter is one. We are far from fundie right-wingers. The public school system simply failed her repeatedly and this was our only option. As we all know, systemic changes take years. I'm still fighting to help revamp our public school system, but I can't let her future suffer as I fight the good fight.

Please be mindful - as most here are - that generalizations about homeschoolers (or any other controversial issues) and mean-spiritedness affect these kids. They get enough grief from elsewhere about these choices; a liberal site such as this should be more accepting and not so friggin harsh about lumping everyone into a category which, in fact, is far from the truth.

My 13-year-old can probably spell and communicate more intelligently than some of the smaller-minded, judgmental persons here. We can have varying opinions but it doesn't mean that every person on the other side is an ignorant, socially-inept, right-wing fundie.

Thanks for allowing me to rant.

Welcome to DU!

Have you been to the homeschooling group in here?

We're small and quiet - but it's nice to know who "we" are.

:hi:

Do you have children? If you don't, let me explain something to you.

It's difficult enough navigating what some public schools have become: minefields. I attended public school for 2 years because we didn't live near any Jewish private schools. There weren't gangs, tons of drugs, and teenagers pregnant. It's a bit different now, for whatever reason, things have changed. And not for the good. I would leave the country before I was forced to send any of my kids to public school now. At least the majority in L.A..

Add to all this, if you are not Christian, you don't want to deal with "Christmas this" and "Easter that". And that will not go away anytime soon.

And what do you know of religious schools? Jewish religious schools produce very intelligent students. We value education.

each child unique, not a mass... each paretn uniaque and each family unique in their requirements journeying thru life and it is none of your business what another choses for their child. you feel the only valid school is public whereas ava the 15 yr old that ended up on cnn because of her videos is homeschooled. private schools statistically come up with better scores, so they say, i don't know that i buy it, but not all are religious, many of our greats went to private and are not worse for the wear.

i prefer public schools, but their education to the privates in my area and for other reasons. i am satisfied with my choice. that is all that count

i totally disagree with all of your post and don't feel it is well laid out in argument or fact

co-workers were discussing private schools, and I think the phrase "keep the children away from the bad elements" is code-speak for anyone who isn't white and live in the right neighborhood.

But I will correct you on one point - many other civilized countries allow and recognize homeschooling as a valid form of education such as UK, Ireland, France, Australia, New Zeland, Japan and Canada to name a few.

Regarding your overall point of should homeschooling or private schooling be allowed - to me it comes down to who has the final say as far as what information your kids are fed - you or the government. I trust my judgement over the government any day of the week.

Full disclosure - my wife and I homeschool our kids - not because of religious reasons, but simply because we feel that we can do a much better job than the local schools.

Or is it something that you learned in public school.

BTW -- I attended public schools and a state university, but the notion that the government should mandate educational options for all citizens is downright scary. Why not just take the kids away from the parents and put them in indoctrination (oh, I mean "education") camps, from ages 4-22....

<<Religious schools do not provide a true education. They skirt issues in history, science and literature that do not advance their goals.>>

In my state, it's "teach to the proficiency tests," so that school districts can brag about their success rates in terms of graduation, etc. They only care about what can be regurgitated on a multiple-choice test.

My kids have never had a formal literature class, nor history class, for that matter. I'm grateful that they are interested enough to pursue these topics on their own. But if we wonder why most people are so damn clueless as to where we have been and where we are going...just look to the schools. Living proof of Santyana's maxim that those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it.

Homeschooling and private schools aren't much better. I'm pretty cynical about the state of education in the United States now, anyway, but don't put too much stock in public schools, either.

because I teach in a countywide school that serves home schoolers and private as well as public. We are an ESE facility. (exceptional student ed) So I see a lot of kids from a lot of different situations.

I could not disagree with you more. First, homeschooling is very popular in Europe. A lot of our home school kids pen pal with kids in Japan, Europe, Australia. You say parents are parents but not teachers. Well, a whole lot of us are! Most of the homeschooled kids I work with have teacher parents. And they are doing very well with their kids.

Also, I taught for five years in a religious school (Episcopalian) plus I was personally educated in a convent school in high school. I'll put my education up against anyone's. We had awesome teachers, many of them retired professors from Ivy League schools. And when I taught in the church school myself, the quality of curriculum was excellent. We did not teach creationism.

What you are proposing: standard public education for everyone...is terrifying to me. It is totalitarian to the extreme. Few things could make me leave this country, but that would. Today's public classroom is sometimes a warehousing of children in inadequate facilities, with too many kids. If you have a child who is small or homely or different in any way, sometimes school is cruel and unusual punishment. Today's classrooms are forced to teach to the test, with the kids who are able learners pushed into peer tutoring and bored into paralysis.

Home and private schooling are to me, signs that this country is doing just fine. We can and do take charge of what needs to be done with our kids. There are excesses in homeschooling and there are private schools not worthy to be called schools, but I believe in my experience (since 1972) that they are by far the exception.

Wherever did you get the idea that it only happens in the US? This factually incorrect. How can you expect someone to take your subjective analysis seriously when you can't get objective things correct?

have the right to decide for parents how and where they educate their children. It amazes me that any liberal or progressive would think they have the right to dictate to parents how and where their children will be educated. Parents have to right to utilize home schooling and private schools if they wish to do so. And I'm speaking as the daughter of public school teachers and a strong proponent and defender of public education.

I attended a private high school, and got a great education. And I think you have the wrong idea about many religious schools as well.

Without public education before the 1900's.
My wife and I let our children complete the year in the public school system this year. Starting the week after labor day (as it used to be) they are starting home school.

The reasons...
1) My son is very bright, but due to some behavioral problems was going to have to be put in Special Education classes no matter what we wanted. He is 9 and can tell you how machines work, nuclear fusion and fission processes, consumes college level books like a book worm, does not watch cartoon network but watches the history channel, discovery channel etc. But no too the public school system he is a "lost cause" to be shuffled into special ed. (and I don;t mean the special ed where they try to catch you up due to a learning disability)

2) My daughter was harassed by the principal and teachers for no apparent reason. We met with the school several times to no avail contacted the school board to initiate and investigation and what happened, they cornered my 12 year old daughter in a room and questioned her as a common criminal and then tried to deny it. My daughter is a straight A student, very quiet and shy. Has never had a problem in school, never been to the office. She got to the point that it physically made her ill to go to school. She begged us to pull her out before the end of the year and finish the year at home. Our family doctor wrote a letter to the school stating the detrimental affect the harassment was having on her mental and physical health.

Before you ask we have retained an attorney and are considering action against the school district, but are hesitant to do this as it will just cost the taxpayers money and probably wouldn;t change a damn thing.

We have invested money and time in setting an area up in our home to school our children. My wife has quit work to take on the task of being a teacher to the children. Yes this is hurting us financially, but in the end my children are vastly more important than money.(I travel weekly for a living and will teach advanced math and science on the weekends). I have a Mechanical Engineering degree, MBA and a Physics degree. My wife has a degree in English and History. I only have one shot at educating my children and I will not waste time waiting on the schools to get their act together all the while the formative years of my children's lives are down the tubes.

As for socilaization, neither of my kids socialize very well with their peers, because their peers are concerned with clothes, boys, their cell phone and coolness. We are joining groups for hokme schooled children that hold events and field trips etc. We also are participating more in the neighborhood events and more trips for the kids to visit their cousins and our friends children.

I have every right as a parent to teach my child and to control the influences around them. Once they leave my home, they may do as they will. If I don't have that right in this country then it is time for a revolution.

As for brainwahing, once kids leave the nest they will quickly figure out the truth. Remember when you were brainwashed to believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. I am sure you nfound out the truth on your own.

What we need in this country is for the government to get out of families lives, except in the case of abuse or neglect. The family is the foundation of society and has been that way forever. By family I mean the parents, children and extended family, close friends and neighbors.

So would you feel the same if the government passed a law that said the theory of evolution could not be taught and only ID could? In your world you would be stuck, in mine I pull my kids out and sacrifice for them.


Peace.

I'm sure that our currently dismal public schools would improve FAST if rich people were required to send their kids to them.

Remember that schools are locally controlled, and if your local public schools are lousy, it's the fault of the local residents, who don't know or care enough to elect competent school board members.

"Religious schools do not provide a true education. They skirt issues in history, science and literature that do not advance their goals. This happens on an even more insane level with home schooling."

Where are you getting this?