Everyone seems to compare the Iraqi Insurgency to an American Scenario

Like: "If someone bombed the hell out of my country and invaded, what side would you be on?" etc. etc. etc ad nauseum.

I think this is a pretty unfair compairison. I can bet you that there is still a fairly large population of Iraqis who, while they hate the situation right now, sure as hell dont want to go back to the days of good ol' Sadaam either. This moral equivilancy argument is pretty lame in my mind. I ask myself what I would be doing if I were an Iraqi right now and I have honestly come up with the answer that I think alot of us here who love democracy would come up with. We would be working our asses off to get a democracy going in our land that never had it. We would be fighting for our ideals and standing up to those who would try to threaten us, just like we do here every time there is some threat to our civil liberties. Who among us could honestly say you would be in the streets looking for someone to capture and mutiliate and rig with explosives. No we would all never stoop that low. We would be working to get elected, we would be in the houses of the Iraqi parlament, looking the US Generals in the eye and telling them it is time to go. At leastwe would like to think so.

I know years of being beat down by your own leader, and the sanctions of other leaders, and a war and occupation, and many thousands of foreigners coming in and setting up shop in your neighborhoods enticing you with thoughts of revenge, and the appeal of an Islamic theocracy, and sectarian differences are all things to consider. But I HATE the framing of this argument in terms of "Oh well if I were there I would be fighting the occupiers!" because I think that it does an incredible disservice to thos Iraqis who fall become collaborators when you frame the debate that way:

1)Those trying just to get by: translators, drivers, cameramen, police, restaurateurs who serve Americans, and paper pushers.

2)Those Iraqis trying to make a better life for the Iraqi people by getting the US out and getting the democracy on its own two feet: a large portion of the Iraqi Governement and Army, the people running radio and tv stations, the women making huge strides in Iraqi society at great personal risk.

Those are the people who collaborate when you make moral equivlancies like that.

for ethnocentrism, jingoism and total cultural ignorance. :popcorn:

oy vey!

where US corporations wanted to go and "make a killing." Oy vey is right.

so stop mentioning that stuff.

america exists in a vacuum and has zero accountabilty for its past actions. so, those inconvenient facts don't jibe well with our great leader's current glorious holy war to spread democracy and freedom to those poor misguided brown people overseas.

you must understand, it WAS WORSE UNDER SADDAM HUSSEIN, so that justifies anything we do. understand, THEY HAD IT WORSE AND SADDAM GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE.

if we have to kill a few iraqis in the name of freedom, that's okay, BECAUSE IT WAS WORSE UNDER SADDAM HUSSEIN.

can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

did i mention: FREEDOM, FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY, SADDAM GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE?

ahh, that's better: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

if you'll excuse me, i have to go put on a costume and strut around in my front yard.

(posted with tongue planted firmly in cheek).

I am saying that if I were over there I would not necessarily be in violent opposition. I would be trying to make the country better by participating in a government and elections. I am also not justifying the killing but that invasion is 3 years past, its done, the question is what would we be doing as Iraqi's RIGHT NOW.

by U.S. forces; have to live under foreign military rule; watch your churches and shrines get blown up; watch your womenfolk and children get brutalized and murdered; and still wave a u.s. flag and welcome your conquerors as liberators and be RAH RAH RAH for "freedom" and "western democracy?"

please.

And to those democracy-loving Iraqis who're doing the right thing and beggetting democracy by serving the Americans - ahem, I have a few announcements to make.

Martinis are served in the stemmed glass, careful not to spill.

Easy on the spray starch, it's hot here this time of year.

The salad fork goes on the right, sheesh.

Please have the red-white-and-blue napkins ready for the next Iraqi election night soiree.

Do all of you have such dark hair? I know a great NYC colorist moving into the American compound who only charges a fraction of what she used to in the Big Apple.

You can sleep in the servants' quarters since it's way past curfew and security forces are shooting on sight. I'd hate to have to break in a new aide.

I remember, I am trying to say that all that seems to go on here is bashing of people who seem to me to be trying to make things better. Thats all. Geez. Yeah Sadaam for all of his enlightened "westernization" was still a dictator. Sorry about the women thing, I stand corrected. I cant believe that all of the people in the Iraqi govt are US Synchophants, call me an optimist but I dont assume the worst of people who want to take part in the political process.

i guess if he didn't try to kill dubya's daddy, he'd still be in power.

I like your username. A lot.

Redstone

... everyone knows they're not "freedom-loving" people like us who've let our government commit crimes against humanity for so many years.

:popcorn:

Got the salt?

at one time it was the most secular arab state. very westernized.

women were going to university there like 30 years ago. that was back when hussein was our guy.

I don't agree with you, but I do see how a reasonable person might believe this. I'm not calling you out as a troll.

Now that that has been said, your facts are wrong but I'll only tackle one.

the women making huge strides in Iraqi society at great personal risk.


Women are moving backward in iraqi society because we toppled a despotic, but modern, secular dictator with religious fundamentalists. Women in iraq have gone from being full members of society to people not allowed to participate in society.

If you doubt me, read riverbend's blog. From a young woman on the ground in iraq. It might open your eyes.

I somehow doubt that you have the slightest bit of inside knowledge about what Iraqi people think, or anything about the mideast in general. It is a basic problem with people wagering guesses about what they think or what ought to happen. In fact, you don't even know how to spell Saddam.

while Saddam was indeed a terrible leader- and a cruel man- The chaos that has erupted in this country, the regional, societal, and religious divisions were held at bay while he was in power.
And as awful as this is, unless the people themselves, had been able to oust him, which would have meant they had united for a common cause- and could use that to bind themselves together, there is no way that peace will come to thier land, without incredible continued bloodshed and probably years and years of war.

If you compare this to the American Revolution, you'll see the difference- There were people who were willing to live under king George's rule- willing to be taken advantage of, even when it harmed them, people who didn't want to fight, who were loyal to the crown, or at least not wanting to have a war- And the Revolutionaries- (aka) Insurgents, defeated the 'occupiers' despite the huge disparity in weaponry, money, troops, and potential troops and fire-power. Why? becuase they had everything to lose- and everything to gain- and would fight to their death. The British troops weren't fighting for thier homes- they lived back in England- Just as our soldiers aren't fighting for their homes- The people who live there ARE- and an alien force, with military bases, and independent contractors, and the history WE have with Iraq- are going to have an impossible time saying we only want the Iraqis to 'be free'- and expect to have any credibility.

"We" want a lot more than 'democracy' in Iraq- and everyone knows that-

Redstone

I don't like Bush, and he's tortured and killed as many people as Saddam ever did.

And if somebody dropped a bomb on my house, killed my family, and called it "liberation" you're damn right I'd kill them and plant booby traps.

:eyes:

:patriot:

yowza!

i read in the article that went with those pics that some of the best, most cohesive squads (with highest kill ratios) are comprised of gang members from the U.S.

interesting to see what "skills" they bring back with them.

I got sidetracked. That's easy for me to do these days. Everyone talks about the "black ops" training and all these secret militias but no one ever focuses on the street gangs. How do you think their leaders train? Think about it... the Bloods, the Crips, INP (international posse), Latin Kings, just to name a few, have factions all over the U.S. How many hundreds of thousands of them would there be if they rose up together against an occupation of this Country? What about guys like the California bank robbers we got to witness in a live shoot-out with police?

The Iraqis are doing excatly what any of us would do. Some are trying to get elected so they can work on change from within the Government... others, like me, will leave that to the ones smarter than me on that subject and be out here on the front lines, fighting with my life to ensure their right to try to get elected. Somebody starts dropping bombs near me I'm shooting back!

Which women are making huge strides in Iraqi society right now?

Saddam was a ruthless dictator, but hid did maintain Iraq as a secular state in which women had more rights and freedoms (in their private lives) than women in probably any other Muslim state. Now that Iraq is becoming "democratic", religious extremists are taking over and women are losing virtually all the rights that they used to have. They are being forced out of the schools and workplaces and forced into the burqua.

The rest of your argument has some validity, but when you repeat the official bullshit about women in Iraq, it detracts from your other statements.

Sometimes I get sucked in, All we ever have playing newswise is Fox on the ship :yoiks:

I may not agree with much you say but I don't think you are a troll or a Republican either.

Don

I am glad someone isnt accusing me of such insanity :hippie:

I guess when you are in the military constantly surrounded by VERY conservative people, you seem downrigth revolutionary until you get out here. The you get made out to be some evil right winger, just right of Mussolini from the way some people talk to me around here. :evilgrin:

and anyone who thinks they can is a fucking IDIOT

There's the rub. You can't know, yet you claim people try to being an "American scenario" into it. Culturally, spiritually, this is a very different country from the USA, yet we keep trying to impose our American style of liberty on them by bombing the crap out of them. WHen do we declare victory and go home? What is the end point?

I just don't want any more of our sons and daughters killed thinking they are "protecting us" when nobody on the GOP side can explain what will constitute a win so we can get our bravest home safe and sound.