Until we STOP Torture as a military tactic, we have NO right to complain.

In the real world, you cannot be two faced when it comes to torture. If you do it, and they do it, then it's okey dokey. But if you refuse to torture prisoners of war, then you have the high ground on the issue.

We can call them barbarians all day long but it's pointless if we do the same things.

Now we are just like them

:(

ok

remember? And some thought it was pretty funny...

tortured, shit was smeared on them...electrocution...dogs allowed to attack them...

What are you talking about panties on the head = mutiliation...we did that too and we killed people.

We've kidnapped and killed civilians.

Panties on the head is just fun we have to cut the tension I guess.

Some people just don't get it.

Gimmee a big big break leo

try other news sources.

Give me the drill-bit any day over that.

But please say "they" instead of "we". I have every right to complain (as do almost everyone here) because most of us are and were against this "war" from the get-go. I complain and am saddened by all the barbaric actions on all sides. I refuse to be lumped in with the pro-war assholes.

It's their baby. We tried to stop it.

Those Abu Ghraib photos will echo all through history.

What we haven't seen could even be more brutal and "barbaric." We have never seen any photos from our remote torture centers that we have farmed out to other barbaric countries.

This was not limited to panties.

I feel very sad that American women took part in the torture and most likely are still participating.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

But I will continue to voice my dissent to what this administration has done. I hold no guilt for what I was and am against.

you're right; they have no moral authority here. They ceded the high ground. If you're talking about individual lawmakers who have fought the admin on torture, or individuals, they have every right to condemn the murder of these two soldiers. If we criticize the admin- as we often do here- why shouldn't we be able to criticize atrocities committed against US soldiers?

Sort of goes without saying. But we see each other's points.

But after Abu Ghraib, we opened up the torture box, and all bets are off.

I respect all those who are fighting against these monsters, and I respect your opinions.

We lead by example.
Bush was led by the Neocons.
We lost this one.
These two fine soldiers lost their heads for Bush.

This country does not have clean hands, so we got the payback.

Either we honor the Geneva Convention or we don't. The war and all it brings with it is a travesty to the entire planet! Our troops will pay the price for bad leadership decisions. Peace, Kim

and those two young National Guardsman hadn't tortured anyone either. One of their mothers is against the war. Who knows how they wound up in the service and what they would have said and done when they returned home. They may have returned home and been members of Iraq Veterans Against the War. Do you think the members here at DU who have loved ones in Iraq right now would have the right to complain if their loved one is tortured and murdered by members of Al-Qaeda in Iraq?

Two wrongs DO NOT make something right. The members of the * administration are corrupt bastards and this "war" is a complete cluster fuck, but it is not ok to say we can't complain about the torture and brutal death of two young men that our government sent over there. The people who tortured and murdered them are evil as well.

they don't seem to be condoning the torture of anyone, or saying it's "right" but that if we (this administration) remove policy on not torturing (which is happening) then we (as a nation) have opened up a can of worms, that we are opening the way for our soldiers to be tortured.

He said it was an absurd question.

who in the hell is bush kidding, what a sick bastard he is, I hope those European reporters blast him with questions, not like a fluff media we have here.

to torture. If you do it, and they do it, then it's okey dokey. But if you refuse to torture prisoners of war, then you have the high ground on the issue.

We can call them barbarians all day long but it's pointless if we do the same things."
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Two wrongs do not make something right. It is never "okey dokey" to torture and brutally murder someone! If you condemn the people at Abu Ghraib, you should also condemn these people who tortured and killed these two young soldiers. I guess what the OP is saying is that revenge is okey dokey. If that is the case, then do you think it will be ok for the troops over there now to just hunt down random people and torture and kill them because some people of Arab decent brutally killed these soldiers? These soldiers were not involved in any torture that we know of just like most of the troops on the ground over there are not. Most of them are just trying to survive and get home to their loved ones.

Also, the way the GC works, Al-Quaeda is not a country that ever agreed to the GC and have never signed on to the GC so you are dealing with a group that has never followed the GC. Should we? Absolutely, but even so it doesn't meant that Al-Quaeda will. In fact, we know they won't because while Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or the USS Cole, etc., we do know that Al-Quaeda did so they have no qualms about killing innocent people, even innocent Iraqi people.

If it were my husband or son who were killed and someone told me I had no right to complain about the people who tortured and killed them, I tell them to go Cheney themselves.

Two wrongs don't make a right, so true. But the OP has a valid point. Once you give up your morals, then you have no place to complain about others' lack of them.

There is no evidence that these two soldiers gave up their morals either.

Al-Qaeda tortured and killed these two young guys and they have never followed the GC and never will. They have attacked and killed innocent people all over the world including the Iraqi people. That doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't be above them (as a country)but it certainly doesn't mean that I as an American citizen that does not condone torture has no right to complain when they brutally torture and murder US troops.

our country. As long as we torture and hold people in Gitmo, we have lost any claim to any moral high ground. Do not confuse my stance with apologizing for Al Quaida, or any other such straw man.

They know it will just be used on them and there will be nothing to say about it.

wrong place