I'm going to say something not very pleasant

but I'm saying it to make a point.

The pot is calling the kettle black. The US DoD and other fuckers involved in this war in Iraq are ranting and raving about soldiers getting tortured, beheaded and held prisoner by Iraqi insurgents. The DoD and the M$M are going on and on and making the insurgents out to be nothing but cruel, cold-hearted bastards.

You know what I say? Fuck the DoD! Fuck the president! Fuck everyone in the M$M and the administration who goes on and on about this shit. You know why? Because frankly, we should be treated as well as we have treated THEIR side.

Abu Graib, anyone? Gitmo, anyone? Haditha, anyone? Why the fuck should those assholes treat OUR people any different than we have treated their side? Do unto others as they have done unto you. Let's get this straight--we are NOT the victims here!! WE are as culpable as any terrorist, as liable as any occupying country, and as responsible as any insurgent.

It's not a nice thing to see our soldiers and others getting killed, beheaded, tortured and suffering, but if I were the Iraqi insurgents, I would not hesitate to rain down on "my" enemy the same shit that they have rained down on me.

WE are the aggressor. WE are the invaders. WE are the nation that raised the first sword and launched into battle against an unproven enemy. WE are not the innocent victims that our fucked up government continues to pretend we are. I can see why the rest of the world hates us more than they do Iraq right now. Because we ARE evil--at least our government right now is--and nothing that any one of these dicks in office right now will EVER change that. WE should not be looking at these captures, deaths and beheadings with arrogant bluster--we should be looking at them with shame for they are OUR fault. They are OUR payback for what WE have done to the Iraqi people.

This perception will remain until this regime in the US is finally out of power--forever. And that ain't gonna happen any time soon. Let's face it--even if we take the WH in 2008 and Congress in 2006, the public is not only so fickle and ignorant that they will get dissatisfied with whoever we put in to try to clean up this mess, and will re-elect their side yet again. This administration shows that ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of--it's actually on the resumes of many people in this group. And at least 40% of the Americans in the country also can claim that same level of intelligence, if not below it. And they're the ones who will keep the truth at bay until they are long gone and buried.

is good for the gander

I don't want to get tombstoned.

we've let the torture genie out of the bottle

from now on, until we restore the Geneva Accords, torture--what constitutes it, who is "eligible" to give it or receive it, when it's okay and when it's not--all aspects of it are open to hair-splitting debate instead of condemnation

thanks to king george and his jester Alberto

thanks to Bush an a compliant congress. The enemy is us now. We are no different.

We've been fucking with them for over half a century.

I guess it's their turn now. :(

that so many in this country are prejudiced against Middle Easterners and Muslims--talk to a freeper some time, it's like they have a disconnect. The Iraqis "deserve" Abu Ghraib and all that, because they are brown skinned or worship God in the "wrong" way. We have a right to do whatever we want because "they" are "barbarians".

happened when black men and women were first brought here as slaves. The customs and traditions of such "savages" were used as rationale as to why blacks were inferior to whites. If people are ignorant enough, they will find any justification to make their point.

which I find interesting, as there were some settlers who chose to go live amongst the Natives rather than stay in their "ordered societies". One of my direct ancestors came over to Plymouth Colony ca 1624; he soon left for Cape Cod, where he lived with the Wampanoags, marrying a daughter of one of the elders of the tribe. He was cast out from Plymouth Colony, but seemed to prosper and flourish; later in life, the colony accepted him back by their invitation; he did not ask for it, which I find very interesting.

no longer respect the Geneva Convenntion as a binding agreement.

Geneva Conventions?

Where? When?

.

part.

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Is anyone keeping track anymore? I know we're more than 100,000 at least.

I wonder how many of those people were beheaded by our bombs? Dismembered? Died tortuously? It's more than two for sure.....

The US goes apeshit over two and justifies the innocent civilian Iraqi deaths as okay since we're bringing democracy and "freedom" to them doncha know....

:cry:

>>>>I wonder how many of those people were beheaded by our bombs? Dismembered? Died tortuously? It's more than two for sure.....>>

A little perspective never hurts.

Now awaiting troll attack. :popcorn:

How dare you refuse recite the "support the troops" pledge as required by ever nutjob from DC to DU. What you're doing is thinking for yourself. "Support the troops" was designed to shut you up.

Just like Heil Hitler!

A couple of things-

I find it interesting that over the years, this forum has begun to sound more and more like I did when bush first took office. For whatever that's worth. I just have a good eye and gut, but can't really explain my way out of a bag.

And I honestly think that this country will be percieved the way it is now until THE PEOPLE change. It's the people who are letting things happen. There are millions of idiots, for lack of a better word, in this country. Bush is a little man.

I woke up in the middle of the night last night with this thought. But I won't post it in it's own thread because I'm shit. I don't have word savy. I just don't write interesting longish stuff. But basically, Hitler killed something like 3-6 million people. The world geared up their war machines to stop him. And I'm sure they weren't too unhappy that war was also a great economic boost to their economies. But here's the part that I find interesting. How many more people were killed in the process of ending that war? 20 million Russians alone. There's a point in here somewhere. I'll probably remember it tonight at 4 in the morning. It has something to do with people stopping bad people without going to war. As it relates to this post, I have to say that if Americans were better educated, more empathetic and caring about something other than cars and hamburgers, Bush would not be in office to begin with.

I feel like I'm typing away for nothing. I guess we'll find out where this all goes. But I agree with you. I just wanted to add what I feel is a truth that I've discovered, even if it's kind of vague.

and I agree with you. Bush still hasn't told us why he went to war in Iraq. Despite Helen Thomas asking him that question, he still hasn't answered it.

Apparently, the majority of Americans don't care. I believe if there was a draft, more people would wake up and worry. Until then, status quo.

complicit corporate MSM and slashed education funding. NCLB is a joke.

cutting off genitals, are we?
I think that is where the outrage lies. The sheer gruesome brutality.

War is brutal. Even made up ones.

On the whole, I agree and understand what you're saying though.

Peace.

bombs on their houses? That's not "gruesome brutality?"

Difference is, those little "brown people" choldrens' deaths don't make the six-o-clock news.

Redstone

You read my response, but did you read all of it?
Don't try to make me out as the culprit!
Read my second response also!

EDITED TO ADD: WAR SUCKS!! Yes! We have dropped f**king bombs and a lot of them.
And we killed children and other innocents.
Some in Iraq have blown up cafe's and other places that have killed children and other innocents too!

WAR IS BRUTAL!!

Does that mean I agree with that? FUCK NO!!!!

But these asshats that started this clusterfuck are thinking 'conventional warfare', in their small minds!!!
They're STILL thinking 'conventional warfare'. What ever the f**k that is!

Maybe THIS brutality will wake them up?? maybe? I don't know.
And when I say 'them'; I mean the people who are RaRa-ing FOR the war and were from the get go!

Cripes!

make distinctions in the levels of brutality?

No, I will not "get off it."

Ever been in a war?

Redstone

>>>But I don't think we are beheading people and
Posted by Breeze54


cutting off genitals, are we?>>>>

defensible as this war drags on. People who are on the bottom end of 500lb US bombs are not dismembered? Their heads and genitals do not separate from their bodies?

They are. They do. And that is the *intention* of the people who drop the bombs.

Let's stop pretending that the 'enemy' is some kind of lower life form; they did not start this war.

:shrug:

So OUR brutality is OK, but THEIRS isn't?

Where have I heard that before?

Redstone

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I stand in awe of your ability to carry on a discussion.

Redstone

Or has that gone down the memory hole along with all the fabricated reasons that were debunked after getting us into this shithole in the first place?

That would be relatively painless compared to letting them burn alive slowly from Phosphorus.

But I believe the men and women in uniform for this country are victims of this criminal mis-Administration as much as the Iraqis are.

I say this as a lifelong pacifist who despises the military-industrial complex and never got closer to military service than the 1-A draft card I still carry in my wallet as a reminder of the horrors of the Vietnam years.

These kids were sent on an obscene fool's errand. More than 2500 of them will never return to their homes, their families, their friends, their lives. Many thousands more will return broken, scarred, psychologically ruined beyond repair.

No-one, no Iraqi and no American, deserves to die. It's time to close these killing fields and let our troops come home.

I agree with you entirely that the consequences being visited on our armed forces were an inevitable result of the criminal decision to invade and occupy Iraq. As you say, WE are not the victims here, but every dead or wounded American soldier IS a victim, and it breaks what little heart I have left to break to think what they have endured.

Peace.

Redstone

I just thought the point needed to be expanded on.:)

Redstone

mirror Vietnam, but in so many more ways, it's far worse than Vietnam could have ever been. Missiles and long-range weaponry have made the enemy far more "anonymous" than ever before. And that's exactly what Bush and cronies have counted on. If you recall, right after 9/11, Bill Maher made the comment about this very thing--that the men who flew the planes into the buildings were not cowards as Bush had insinuated--that "we" were more cowardly by waging war on such a long distance system. Of course he got reamed in that burst of "unity" we "shared" during the months that followed 9/11, but what he said was true. Maher was one of the first casualties of that "with us or against us" brand of jingoism that resulted.

I don't know how to exactly word this, but I feel so much worse for those who survive this war as veterans because their lives will be as broken as many of their souls. And every single one of them has suffered, and will continue to suffer for years to come from the horrors. That's why I said so long ago, in 2003, that only a megalomaniac or a chickenhawk would have ever pressed for this conflict, because those in the military who have honorably served know that the terror of war lasts a lifetime, and would never send an innocent child into such a pit unless it was the last alternative. Especially one of our own making.

But it is not original. Actually the point was strongly made at the time that the Abu Graib photos--the first ones--became public. The point as made then, was that by mistreating (to put it mildly) Iraqis we greatly increased the likelihood--to almost certainty--that any Americans captured would face the same kind of treatment.

Therefore, for this we can thank, Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, et alia.

This is not even to get into what it has done to help Al Quaida recruit terrorists, or what it has done to our reputation worldwide, or the prospects for a stable government in Iraq.

Did want to remind everyone though.

But I don't think they read here much.

(Where are the trolls when you want them to read what you have to say?)

The bush crime family lies and everyone dies.

Voted and Kicked!


*spelling

Orgasm Overdrive about how you're a TRAITOR and all tonight...

But you're right. Fuck 'em if they don't understand that.

Redstone

I think the cause for both tragedies can be put on the heads of Rummy, Bush, Cheney and others in this administration. At this point, our soldiers and their citizens are essentially all the victims of the same, horrific crime.

Redstone

A truthful and eloquent statement of the facts.

For alleged born-again Christians, you'd think these idiots would have more than a passing familiarity with the phrase: "As you sow, so shall ye reap."

You'll also note that the MSM always go wild over the idea of US soldiers being heheaded. That's because it's the ONE thing they do, that we do not (so far - but stay tuned).

This Administration is truly despicable.

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

brilliant.

the same thing today :cry:

Yesterday MSNBC cut away quickly when the other soldier's uncle mentioned "cannon fodder". then this dad actually stated (more or less) that his son was doing his job and the ones that killed him believed they were doing their's.
these people have suffered so much and are suffering so much- their lives are torturous.
also the Bush regime ( not in my name http://notinourname.net ) is pro-torture, so what do they rxpect?

and it isn't limited to any one party or branch of government.

If the US tortures and commits war crimes, I will condemn the US. If Al Qaeda, the Iraqi rebels, or whoever tortures and commits war crimes, I will condemn them as well. Al Qaeda has no justifiable excuse to slaughter those young men in cold blood as they did. They are war criminals. Furthermore, the US has no right to continue warehousing and torturing people without due process or Geneva Convention protections just because Al Qaeda is made up of bad people.

To justify or excuse torture simply because your adversaries are not following the rules, regardless of who it is, is a very adolescent line of argument . It conjures up images of two boys caught fighting in the schoolyard while they point fingers at each other with excuses like "he started it!", "Did not!", "Did too".

and thus bears the ultimate responsibility.

Why are we there? i condemn it all as well but!

We started this "torture" by dropping 1000 lb bombs on these people: beheading, dismembering, literally torturing the populace to death. A hundred thousand to death? More?

From a distance it's easy to say the Iraqis are the barbarians since they are selecting their victims - and hand-to-hand flaying them to death.

But these people are close up to "our" death dealing every day. They have watched people gasping their last breath, 3 year olds dying, as their blood runs out of their arterial veins from a shrapnel wound. They have watched fathers, mothers, grandmothers and grandfathers, sobbing over their lost family as the blood runs on the street.

They don't have war planes to drop their death from the sky. They can only deal it from close-up.

Is the average American paying attention? Do they look over at their 17 year old son and imagine him beheaded? Can they relate this to politics, to GW Bush, in this day and age?

We MUST say this over and over and over. I am terrified for our young people here in the US. I only wish I had a more effective voice for them, to help them realize what is in store for their future if this Admin somehow, some way, perpetuates this military-industrial fascism.

that if they remember the movie Red Dawn, we are now the Russians. Who can blame the Wolverines for fighting any way they can?

i get your point, but disagree. yes, i know that the bush administration policies and false war based on lies has indeed brought the wrath of many upon the US.

but when i see the pictures of any of the soldiers who have died in iraq it makes me sad - it hurts a place deep in my "mother's heart." christ, they were just kids! no matter what the so-called USA did, these kids did not deserve what happened to them. no more than the multitudes of dead iraqi's deserved what happened to them.

i don't think any of us know what we would really think or do if we "were an iraqi insurgent." i'd like to hope that, if i were an iraqi instead of an american, i would still think and feel as i do - that any life lost in a war was a stupid loss, and that every single life lost deserves mourning.

the "WE" you talk about is not me, nor do i think it is most people designated as americans due to the lines drawn on the maps.

i hope that you never have to rain down on your enemies whatever shit has been rained down on you. whatever that means.

now - we can't even go out and help clear the rubble or build them more mortuaries because it's not safe. But yet the Rumsfeld gang and supporters will brag about what we built for them when it was safe - at a criminal charge to taxpayers so that some war lovers could get rich.

we, the United States of America, cannot claim the moral highground against a simple insurgency on this issue. How far this administration has dragged us down. It sickens me.

While, I do agree they are fighting back against an agressive force on their own soil and can't blame them, I don't want to see them harmed or killed.

It was bush who put them there and now they have to kill or be killed. Politics go out the window when they're being shot at. I know of a few who did curse bush while shooting at people who were trying to kill them.

I blame bush for putting our troops in such a horrific position and I blame bush for the countless thousands of innocents that have died.

For every life lost whether it's one of our soldiers, an innocent or someone fighting to get us out of their country, I blame bush. The blood is on his hands.

And it IS *ush's responsibility... but as a people we have begged them to NOT Torture, to bring back the Geneva Conventions and they DON'T.

Meanwhile, when we say, bring our troops home (alive) they call US the ones who don't care about our soldiers. Not so.

And it isn't ONLY Soldiers.. American citizens are open targets too. Just remember that when you travel.

Uh, this happens hundreds of times a year in American prisons (investigations). How did we ever come up with Abu Ghraib?

How can we invade another country on faulty premises then get angry when their citizens defend themselves? Would we not defend ourselves should a foreign nation occupy our country and aggress towards us? Then why do we berate others for doing the same?

Beginning with the Mexican war. We've done this all over the world. If you have the stomach for it, read "Overthrow". It is Iraq fourteen times in fourteen countries -- the history of our foreign policy for the last hundred years or so.

It's not surprising that our soldiers are being treated horribly. It's surprising that there isn't today a coalition determined to blow us off the face of the planet.

This regime is in some ways the logical consequence of the last century. Why they are a surprise to us is a measure of how removed we are from our own history. :(

"This regime is in some ways the logical consequence of the last century. Why they are a surprise to us is a measure of how removed we are from our own history."

:(

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It's not "we"!!! I didn't sign on to this shit! The asswipes want a double standard and your points are well taken. But "we" continue to allow them to represent us. Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Rice, et al are all war criminals and belong in the Hague. What's good for the goose...is right!
Arrogant fucks.

I have just been ignoring the hype about all this - because the way I see it - they pulled this story out from under a rock to get Americans all riled up and feeling like victims again following the Haditha coverage.

I think that is the whole and entire point of this story. To keep people on board about the war. The War - that we have no business being involved in - being that it is illegal and unwarranted, etc.

Plus the new est. is that 300,000 Iraqis have been killed. There is absolutely no comparison in the gravity in the situations. Us and them. Or in responsibility. It's all ours.

We have no moral highground anymore.

for the most part our victims walk away.

Real high standard you have there...

who's to say who walks (or crawls) away? have you seen them walk away? Have the inmates - sorry, the people who were "kidnapped" and held without trial - at Gitmo walked away? Yes, I would agree that some of the things we heard about seemed mild compared to getting your head cut off, but who's to say what happens behind closed doors and in other countries? I sure don't know the extent of what is going on in our names.

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

:cry: