If someone says to you, "You are preaching to the chior" does this mean?

OK I agree with you, but please shut up about it OR I agree 100%.

this looks like a false choice.

only the agreeing 100% aspect applies.

but I could see it being interpretted the other way.

sP

I use the term, and it's generally used to cut someone off when they're trying to sell you on an idea you already believe in. It references the fact that it's a waste of time and energy to preach your views to people who already believe in what you're saying. It may feel good, but when you're done you've accomplished nothing.

what you are saying is a 'given'-
Something that would not engender any argument, and something so universally accepted, that it is kind of ...redundant???

At least from my experience.

you're not telling me anything I don't already know.

so don't bother wasting your breath any further.
(Venting is allowed however) :+

as they don't need the shpeil.

and only meant it as "I agree with you 100%." I do not use it as a mechanism to cut off the dicussion but as a means of reinforcing to the students in my class that 'what this person is saying is exactly right'.

funny that this should come up now...are YOU in my class???

sP

then people understand. If you say it in a dismissive way, then yeah, I can see the problems. As with many mutli-meaninged things...it is all in the delivery.

sP

Technically, it shouldn't automatically mean agreement. People go to churches where they disagree with some of the elements of the pastor's beliefs/positions, so while they may be in the choir, and they may listen to the pastor's sermons, they may not agree with them. What is certain is that they are captive audiences for the sermons -- typically the choir sits behind the pulpit and cannot easily get up and leave during a sermon.

If the saying were intended to get people to shut up, then by extension, the members of the choir should be excused from the sermon -- can you imagine telling the pastor: "Oh man, you're preaching to the choir -- I'm going home early today"

Church members go to church to LISTEN to preaching, don't they?

It's really an odd saying when you start to analyze it carefully.

But, I think most people use it in either or both of the contexts you mention, but there could be another, more literal, interpretation, that of a captive audience.

BTW, speaking of churchy sayings, don't you love when someone asks "Are those seats saved?" (as they eye the seats in the pew next to you) and you reply: "I don't know, but they haven't missed a sermon!"

Doesn't seem to deter them at all (I know I know, they do it for the small percentage of non-converts in the audience -- but then you have to ask why the converted go to church to hear the sermons)

out preaching to the heathen -- his time would be better invested in preaching to people who haven't yet heard him, rather than preaching to the already-converted. That's just always been my mental image on that phrase.

convinced of validity. This makes this repetition what they came to Church for, desire for a pleasant hypnotic fix comes to mind.

lexicalized, and sometimes called idiom chunks.

They don't behave like sentences where the meaning is derived by merging the meaning of the words with the grammar: i.e., they're non-compositional in meaning. You can't analyse beyond the limits of the chunk; they frequently have odd grammar. "John spilled the beans about the upcoming project" has a questionable passive, "The beans about the upcoming project were spilled by John" ("The cat was let out of the bag by John" isn't nearly so bad, but you still can't pseudo-cleft it: "It was the cat that was let out of the bag by John"). "Hey, buddy, it's the choir that you're preaching to" sounds very awkward; "the choir was preached to by John" also doesn't work. Non-compositional.

But you missed some things that went in to the saying: Choirs typically have a 'faithfulness' rule, bad parishioners are frequently not allowed in the choir (at least there used to be such a rule, when the saying became lexicalized); in any event, they are solid members of the choir, and not just people wandering into the church in the days when a town would possibly have just one or two churches to choose from. Choir risers in more traditional setting are frequently behind the pulpit; to face the choir you'd turn your back on the real audience.

Captive audience isn't part of it; could have been, but simply isn't.

"We've heard it and you should use your energies telling others"; that can easily shift to just, "we've heard it, please stop bothering us now." Esp. since the meaning of the words no longer gets you the meaning of the phrase.

black church and it refers to the fact that when the preacher wants to be "cheered on" in his "you gonna burn in hell" fervor, he frequently addresses his remarks to the choir who either echoes some of his words or exclaims "Amen!" or Hallelujah!" (Much the same way as in African American gospel music)

In no way does it mean "please shut up." Preaching to the choir means addressing those from whom one KNOWS he will get support and agreement. It means encouraging the choir to speak out. This is known in African American history as the "call and response" part of worship.


Not too long ago some tv news readers first heard this term which has been around in black churches for ages. I recall when they first began to try to use the phrase and were very awkward with it. Some were so uncomfortable saying "Preaching to the CHOIR" that they changed it to "Preaching to the CONVERTED.
That really sounded stupid.


BTW: Remember when sportscasters first started to imitate black NBA players in saying, "YOU the man?" Again uncomfortable with the dialect, they began saying, "YOU'RE the man." Again it sounds stupid to try to grammatically clean up those sayings that have their greatest impact when spoken in the dialect in which they were created.

of the Church. Dictionaries are supposed to keep us informed as to new usages of words. Some people believe that dictionaries are supposed to keep people from expanding usage, but no one can do that. The reason I had to post this was that I could find no helpful reference. So I resorted to DU opinion and it has been very helpful.

Preaching to the choir means addressing those from whom one KNOWS he will get support and agreement. It means encouraging the choir to speak out. This is known in African American history as the "call and response" part of worship.

In my experience it depends on context as with most language usage. If a person is talking about something that needs to be discussed vigorously, it very well may mean that one is conducting a useless exercise by speaking to people who are in agreement and that they need to move on and talk to people who are unconvinced.

However, I believe that whatever the context, when one is "preaching to the choir" he is "vigorously discussing" with one or more persons who already share the same convictions with him.

When Karl Rove meets with Bush, Rice, karen Hughes, Rummy, etc and discusses a new plan...he is preaching to the choir, because they already agree with him - regardless.

I do see your point about "moving on and talking to people who are unconvinced."

Makes complete sense, and actually gives the correct context -- it's basically a way of saying "Amen to that!" -- so, for example, having a bitch session with someone who agrees with your position and offers supportive agreement, is probably the correct usage.

been persuaded.

You should preach to sinners to convert them. Preaching to the choir is a useless exercise, since those people are already devout, in other words.

anything fundies have to say means shut up.

already get it.

It is generally reserved for people who are trying to be passionately persuasive to a person or group that don't require any persuading to begin with.