The Rove no-indictment still bothers me...

I don't know, it just does. Not simply the fact he wasn't indicted - as discouraging as that was - but just the way it transpired. Even setting aside Chimpy's distract-the-media whirlwind trip to Baghdad, which happened at approximately the same time as word that Rove got off. "Word". That's it. I haven't been able to get past the fact that there hasn't been - or have I missed it? - a formal announcement about any of this from the Fitzgerald camp. Perhaps naively, I figured Fitz would have made one at a news conference. All that hullabaloo about Rove, for soooo long, and then...pffft...bubkiss. Sorta like someone slowly letting the air out of a balloon. I know Fitz did not create or encourage hype about Rove's possible fate, but he did haul the guy's ass before the grand jury five times. I can only conclude, I suppose, that my own ignorance of the grand jury process explains why I feel so unsettled about this.

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Bush is an idiot. Can I still say that?

but Fitz hasn't made any pronouncements except when he indicted. He is what a prosecutor should be, discreet. Sadly Ken Starr never learned that lesson.

You should be pissed. Im still fuming.

"Perhaps naively, I figured Fitz would have made one at a news conference. "

I wouldn't call it naive that you didn't know that Fitzgerald said clearly during his Libby presser that he would be making NO COMMENTS on un-indicted individuals.

I dont believe it does. IMO Fitz sold out to pressure from the intimidators.

So now Fitz is a BFEE stooge.
Gotcha!

ignore evidence and allow Rove to change his story a few times. Yea, hes a real keeper. Keep dreaming idealist.

and then lied to a grand jury about it. But then Mr Credibility allowed him to return and explain away his first perjury. That evidence. And now Mr Credibility wont even bother to comment or show us how Rove slithered away. How convenient.

I missed the report that showed that Rove lied to the Grand Jury. Can you point me to a link?

Thanks

And Rove could still be outed as the liar that he is, which is highly posible... it could still happen.

As I recall, he merely stated he would make no comments about the ongoing investigation, not specifically about un-indicted individuals.

I don't make unsubstaniated claims.

"We don't talk about people that are not charged with a crime in the indictment."

"Please don't take that as any indication that someone has done something wrong. That's a standard practice. If you followed me in Chicago, I say that a thousand times a year. And we just don't comment on people because we could start telling, "Well, this person did nothing wrong, this person did nothing wrong," and then if we stop commenting, then you'll start jumping to conclusions. So please take no more."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801340.html

Starr pelted the press with leaks on a daily basis, usually "unofficial" progress reports that mentioned everyone and their dog.

His whole deal was fruitless. Starr was a clown.

Seems Fitz is much more professional and thorough... and he's not done yet.

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Did he mean he would NEVER comment and/or NEVER tell the public when a top admin. official is off the hook? Or did he mean he wasn't commenting on persons outside the indictment he was announcing at that particular time?

That's how I read it... if you read further, you'll see he goes on to talk about those processes in more detail.

Please quote the part that supports what you just claimed.

That he says: "There's another thing about a grand jury investigation. One of the obligations of the prosecutors and the grand juries is to keep the information obtained in the investigation secret, not to share it with the public.
And as frustrating as that may be for the public, that is important because, the way our system of justice works, if information is gathered about people and they're not charged with a crime, we don't hold up that information for the public to look at. We either charge them with a crime or we don't."

Sounds like he's commenting on every bit of information received in the course of any investigation. He says "a grand jury investigation... not "this" investigation.

That being said, I find it highly unlikely he would ever tell anyone they were off the hook. There's still a chance that during the trial, that person could be found to have perjured themselves in the sworn statements during the investigation.

on this subject instead of accusing me of various absurdities you would have found that I agree with you re the trial.

I have said that as soon as I heard the "sand in the umpire's eyes" comment I thought we would be in a holding pattern until Libby could be proved to be an unreliable witness.

But instead you needed to deflect criticism from people dismissing the TO gossip and rumor mongering. And you seemed particularly concerned with people finding out TO and leopold engaged in threats and smear campaigns against those who spoke out against their irresponsible reporting.

And your quoted portion of Fitzgerald's presser further validates my original point.

:toast:

I'm all for truth. When we agree on truth, we agree on truth.

IMHO, much of what you claimed to be evidence in that whole fiasco was bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.

I don't give a rat's ass about TO, only the truth. If you think that my not believing a freaking word said by Rove or his lawyer is supporting Leopold and TO, that's your fantasy, not mine.

What I quoted shows that Fitz was talking about all grand jury investigations. He never said squat about Rove being off the hook, yet you cling to that like flies to shit.

My only reason for being interested in this story is to see as many of those rat bastards in the Bushite administration go down, period.

My point was that Fitz never talks about un-indicted people. Ever. Look at the post I was responding too and then reread your comment asking for proof. You asked for a link proving Fitz doesn't talk about people he isn't charging. Why you are switching that now to Fitz clearing rove I have no idea.

I never claimed Fitz said anything during the libby presser that cleared rove. Period.

As for my 'bullshit evidence" please quote a SINGLE thing I posted that you think is bullshit.

I only give a rats ass about TO when their behavior hurts the progressive movement and is designed to silence strong progressive voices that criticize their irresponsibility.

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I did. This sub thread was me responding to the op's "naive" thought that Fitz would make some kind of announcement about Rove or any other un-indicted person.

YOU jumped in and asked for a link then proceeded to pretend the link and my post was some how unrelated to the thread.

You then claimed my evidence was "bullshit".

Now that I ask you to quote the "bullshit" you say I'm on a vendetta.

Crazy that you think I'm on the vendetta when the behavior that I'm trying to shed light on is the definition of a vendetta.

The evidence that TO, and leopold were on a vendetta you called bullshit. Why is that?

Most of the few remaining diehards now appear no longer willing to continue to blindly adhere to the truthout story which was obviously badly written and inconsistent on its face from the outset, and which became more and more strange and unwieldy over the past several weeks. Even most of the previously most vocal supporters now seem to be distancing themselves from truthout's version of events.

All that seems left to hear is an apology from TO and Jason Leopold, however I hold out more hope for the former than the later.

A good start would be TO removing the offensive posts from their blog. Even though the threads that contain them have been relegated to the dustbins of net history, a quick google of the injured party, or his assailant, with reveal the disgusting attacks.

Oh ya, and TO firing Leopold would also go a long way to restoring their honor among progressives offended they would have someone like him on staff.

They wouldn't have to admit any editorial error re the obviously flawed stories. Jason's sock puppetry alone should be a firing offense.

"Harry Shep" aka Jason leopold ran around the internet telling people what an awesome reporter Leopold was and claimed Leopold had the best source going in the Plame investigation. Harry Shep called people "pussies", and worse for daring to question Leopold's stories and sources.

What kind of 'news' org would keep someone like that on staff is a mystery to me.

You would have noticed that there wasn't any real support for TO in this, but merely support for and a search for, the truth. We don't know what that is. Could be TO was right, could be they were wrong. Just because people are tired of your circular arguments means nothing other than the fact they are tired of your circular, confrontational arguments.

Maybe now you guys can rest in peace and let us talk about the Plame investigation.. I mean if that is ok with you? Give it a rest.... If this had been a TO thread, I would of expected it, but this is just a thread about someone who is disappointed that Rove did not do the perp walk...

That if this noble cause of truth were your true MO and only desire, you'd find a better way to present your argument. Your song of one note, your confrontational attitude and smug demeanor do nothing to further your cause. If anything, it has an opposite effect. The only thing I see, and judging by the posts of others they see the same, is that you have an axe to grind... sour grapes. Why?

If your cause were truly noble, methinks you'd go about this in a different, more sincere manner.

That he says: "There's another thing about a grand jury investigation. One of the obligations of the prosecutors and the grand juries is to keep the information obtained in the investigation secret, not to share it with the public.
And as frustrating as that may be for the public, that is important because, the way our system of justice works, if information is gathered about people and they're not charged with a crime, we don't hold up that information for the public to look at. We either charge them with a crime or we don't."

Sounds like he's commenting on every bit of information received in the course of any investigation. He says "a grand jury investigation... not "this" investigation.

That being said, I find it highly unlikely he would ever tell anyone they were off the hook. There's still a chance that during the trial, that person could be found to have perjured themselves in the sworn statements during the investigation.

Considering how little our democracy, and our constitution matter to this regime and their enablers.

There is still a long trial ahead... and Fitz never said the investigation was over.

get over it. Anyone who tells you to get over it must be a republican.

with Fitz. Nothing serious. Bush and his friends just have way too much power.

away with whatever. Now the unitary executive is into our bank accounts.

doesn't make it so.

There is way too much effort by the spinmeisters to claim the show is over. that makes me mighty suspicious. Something else is going on. . .

Did rove cut a deal -- to turn over a bigger fish?


And besides that, Rove will have to testify in the Libby trial.

He better mind his P's & Q's and not contradict anything he has already said. Or his ^ss is gr^ss.

I think given that he will still have to testify, and that others will testify, there is still a chance that Rove could be indicted for perjury if nothing else. Then, when all is said and done, there will no doubt be a civil trial:)

The best thing is, if you read the Fitz interview linked in this thread, there's no way Fitz would say an investigation is over. Now, who can you think of that lied about that? Rove? His lawyer? Bush? Yep...

Rove will HAVE to testify at the libby trial. And what do you see the implications of Rove pleading the 5th if summoned.

Who has said the investigation is over? Bush didn't even say that.

I don't know whether to :hide: or to :popcorn: !!

:popcorn:

;-)

These are the days of their lives......

......"go to the mattresses" every time Rove and Indictment are mentioned in the same breath.

stop trying to preempt criticism by calling people idiots, and as soon as TO and Leopold apologize for their smear campaign, and threats.

Why do we have to put up with that shit here? I think the point has been made. Please let it go.

We can ignore... and continue with our discussion regardless... there are a lot of good thoughts going on here to just drop the part WE want to discuss!

someone likes to see these threads locked so we can't have any conversation about Rove....

Brilliant! I've always wondered why all the effort to that end. You made a light come on!

The only effort is to get TO to own up to their behavior and to stop people here from enabling them through incredulity to continue the practice of threatening critics.

la la la



PS to everyone else... I'm refusing to let him get me upset about the nonsense... we need to keep this thread on track and not be hijacked by the anti-TO crowd.

It's not my posts that get things deleted.

I'm not the one that accuses other DU'er of being banned members, calls critics idiots, or denies that TO engages in dispicable behavior.

Me thinks you doth Project to much.

I have not accused anyone of anything, you must have me confused with one of a hundred people that you have insulted in this forum...

I am right about what I say, you want these threads locked and you are trying to get them locked as evidence by your post... You look like a bee stinging posters up and down this thread.... Doing everything you can to get people to get angry....

far from it.

The only people I'm "stinging" are those that refuse to acknowledged the destructive behavior that will lead to the left having no credible voices willing to take the risks associated with calling bullshit, bullshit.

So far in this thread that is three people who have successfully had every thread and sub thread about the despicable behavior locked or deleted.

It's amazing you pretend to not have made accusation. Why exactly have you had so many posts deleted?

fly away now...

and failed miserably each time.

Maybe people are more concerned about the behavior than you would like them to be.

Regardless I need to acknowledge the job you are doing to exemplify my point beautifully.

:toast:

We are ALL injured by this.

You know...

First they came for the....

One of the TO editors continues to post here and refuses to acknowledge the destructive behavior.

.....outside the bar, push him down and break his hip. I promise. There. You satisfied?

Because if this behavior goes unchecked for thirty years these frauds will have made criticizing their disinfo such a dangerous prospect there with be so much bullshit clogging our boards that we won't know what to believe.

Every thread about Rove does not have to include the TO tangent. People want to discuss the situation not hear people drone about the same old same old to the same old audience. We want threads that don't turn in to poop flinging nonsense. I was having a nice time in this thread until bumped into more of the TO drama. Don't think that I write this because I have some stake in the whole TO Opera that has gone on here, I write this because I am sick of threads that amount to a bunch of crap. It craps up the whole place. Let's see if we can make it not as stinky in here.

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And I apologize for allowing myself to be sucked into that muck.

There is plenty to talk about without all that.

I'm having a great time re-reading the transcript of Fitz's press conference of 10/28/05! It answers a lot of questions. We should all read it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

There is a lot of hope left... read!

You were saying? You had some great Rove thoughts earlier...

We know he lied, he admitted that much. Said he never had anything to do with the leak to reporters. We know now Rove told Cooper...


Karma has a way of coming around... Rove's karma is going to bite him in the ass....

Too many questions and no answers from Fitz. :tinfoilhat:

But more than anything else, I'm ticked that justice is NOT being served. :mad:

Don't give up hope. There is still the trial... and you can only imagine the twisting and turning and lying that will go on... Rove could still be nailed for obstructing justice or perjury or any number of things... once the Repugs start lying... heh.

We'll see.

He has nothing to lose... and he is pretty damn evil.

Cheney's handwriting on that news article, Cheney's main man lying under oath... For who, For what????

There's no way they can all get out of this without lying and obstructing justice. Fitz could easily have a field day... month, or year, depending on how long this thing goes on.

You know what the say... The Best Is Yet To Come....

Cheney announces he might have to testify... :shrug:

on the prize. Focus on what is important.

If a person said that the most important thing in the Watergate scandal was that Bernstein & Woodward were accused of erring in a quote they attributed to Hugh W. Sloan, Jr., you would not take that person seriously. How could you? You would remember that Nixon & Co. jumped on that tiny, insignificant "error," and demanded that it destroyed the Washington Post's credibility. It was a brief "controversy," that paled in comparison to the real story.

In the Plame scandal, the real story is the role of Cheney and Libby. We should not be distracted by any attempts to bring Hugh Sloan into the discussion.

I just got chills! You are so right... the petty remarks and arguments are attempts to avert our eyes from what is important.

In the opening comments of Fitz's press release, he states, "In July 20036, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community.

Oh, yeah. There's still plenty of time for many more heads to roll. Even if that information has since been de-classified, it was classified at the time. I know the spin, I want to see answers to the truth.

wish Rove had been indicted in May. He wasn't. But that does not mean that:{a} the investigation is over; {b} the scandal has disappeared; or {c} that we should be bumps on a log.

I've told DUers before about a time, almost a decade ago, when a gang of racist men attacked my nephew and beat him savagely. They were "upset" that a brown-skinned high school student was getting a lot of media attention. So a gang of about 15 thugs waited in a dark parking lot, hit him with a rock or bottle, and then beat him severely as he lay unconscious on the ground with his hands in his pockets.

Long story short: we knew the white guys would face little consequence. The law in rural, upstate New York treats white folks differently than non-white folks. And, in fact, the gang leader, who punched and kicked my nephew more than a dozen times, causing serious physical injuries, was fined $50 for an open beer he had during the attack -- but not a thing for his violence.

We could have been bitter .... or worse .... but instead we organized. Couldn't convict him in criminal court, but we could do a heck of a "media campaign," and highlight the disease of racial prejudice. And convict the thug in the court of public opinion.

We do not know what happened in May. But we know Rove is a thug, and we have enough information to be taking part in a media campaign.

Rove indicted May 12. stamped, absolute. guaranteed.

most here agree Rove is a thug, it's a non issue and has got nothing to do with the story.

we don't know what happened to credibile journalistic qualities that TO may have had in the past, but the fakery of words and the ducking and covering and invention of new time zones and time machines (24 bus hrs. , ahead of the news cycle) is an insult to all they grasped in their net. They are obviously in a mess and don't know how to get out of it intact, with enormous egos and all.

This could have gone down as just a mistake and be forgotten by now, but no, the players keep yanking at our chains with expectation of us to being fools by following their nonsense.

they should just fess up.

for several reason.

First, I think it's the first time I've read you saying categorically that Rove wasn't indicted in may. (I could very well have missed that in other threads)

Second your analogy is a perfect fit for what TO and a group of attack dogs have done to progressive bloggers that questioned their reporting.

The bloggers could have been bitter but instead they have organized to make sure reporters like leopold and outlets like TO are never again able to threaten the livelihood of critics without consequence.

Rove is the biggest cretin this country has had to deal with in a very long time, and with the help of you and others, at a minimum his place in history will reflect the atrocities he has been instrumental in.

Let's hope we can all help secure our right to speak out against bullshit without fear of having our families affected.

:toast:

:-(

The gang was involvedin a number of brutal attacks, and a drive-by shooting, that targeted non-white people. In one episode, they attacked a few Asian-American students at SUNY-Binghamton. They left one student for dead, with a fractured skull. A few months later, they fractured another guy's skull.

very pragmatic to focus on the REAL story here. thank you.

conversation I would like to have about this case... I hope that we will be able to have several more about this trial... As always H20 Man thanks for the information.....

Rove had been frog-marched. But the game isn't over.

Many people, including David Shuster, believed Rove was going to be indicted in the second week in May. None of us know why he wasn't. We can speculate: he made some arrangement; Fitzgerald felt the case was too weak; the necessary number of grand jurors did not vote to indict.

What we do know is that the investigation, and even the case against Scooter Libby, is an iceberg. We see a little bit of it. But most of it lies beneath the surface.

I wanted to see Rove indicted. However, unlike some journalists who believed Rove played the biggest role in the scandal -- and in things like the yellow cake forgeries -- he didn't. He is of minor significance when compared to Cheney and Libby.

Libby is it. And the fall of Libby isn't going to mean shit to them. It hasn't stopped them one bit. Libby could even if he was going to be in jail the rest of his life-say what-Cheney told me to say out her for nothing but political gain and SO? Cheney has clearance to do that does he not? SO? Is Fitzgerald prosecuting a war based on lies? No he's prosecuting the Plame case. Rove and Libby were it. Rove free. Libby probably pardoned. That's it. This isn't Watergate. These people are far far more corrupt than that.

if you are saying Cheney had the authority to have Libby disclose Plame's identity. I am unaware of a single person -- with the possible exceptions of Cheney and Libby -- who believe that.

Mr. Fitzgerald may, or may not, decide to try to prosecute VP Cheney. If he does, then he will convict him.

If not, then the most obvious alternative, which can be a real possibility after the fall elections, is what the Constitution recommends in these cases. I can appreciate, however, anyone's concern that the folks in the House and Senate have not been doing their jobs in recent years.

Still, I think that it is fair to say that the administration is not weaker than it was 18 months ago.

It is possible Libby will be pardoned. But I doubt it. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am mine on that, of course.

that others (presumably me) would hope to distract from the "prize" by picking out a factual inaccuracy made by a reporter and turning that into a reason to let the "prize" get away with something.

As my posts have clearly stated it is behavior engaged in by TO that needs to be addressed. As a prominent progressive voice I'm surprised you don't share that concern. That you post anonymously I assume your real identity is something you wish at this stage in your online career to keep private. Luckily you haven't been the target of reporters that wish to have your criticism of their reporting silenced.

It is clear that until there are further developments in this case the "prize" can only be speculated about and as evidenced by the thread today on the trial transcripts those (presumably me) that wish to see some contrition from TO have no problem with discussing possible outcomes or parsing transcripts.

Where I have a problem is when people use the term "idiots" when trying to preempt criticism or dissenting opinion, and when behavior we will all suffer from is swept under the rug claiming a greater good can be served by ignoring it.

I know I am, or trying to be. Seems to be the venue nowadays.

we are fucked every which way. There is no going back to the glory days - if they actually existed - someone had to pay for it (usually brown countries) and now it's our turn.

911 will always bother me. What people are doing in my name in Iraq/Afghanistan bothers me. I really, REALLY hoped that Rove was toast like Libby. Seems like everyone BUT Luskin are 'no comment' about the whole thing, which just bothers me even more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

There is hope there... and explanations about the secrecy... there's still a chance Rove and the rest of the Bush Regime will go down.

Can you get any more symbolic? HOPE? Another four letter word for FOOLS.

And it works for me.

Have no hope, eh. It must be rough.

We are thankful for that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/21/123823/132

Cheney never testified under oath, nor did GWB. So they cannot be prosecuted for perjury.

All last weekend, I wondered if Rove had made a deal with Fitz, under the pressure of a sealed indictment. I confirmed with my local US District Clerk that sealed indictments were not common but they happened enough not to raise eyebrows when they were.

But the only reason for Fitzgerald to want Rove's testimony and cooperation would be to prosecute someone up the ladder; but the ladder only has two more rungs: Cheney and Bush.

But now I realize that there is no crime that Bush or Cheney would be prosecuted for so what is the point of Rove's coerced cooperation?

If you can't prosecute Bush or Cheney for perjury or obstruction of justice, then what can you prosecute them for? Outing an agent? How would you do that?

~
I think I've been suffering from SEVERE delusions believing Cheney-was actually going to be brought to justice. Ha ha ha. Rove for perjury was the best Fitz could probably do. And I believe he's let Rove walk-for whatever reason, it doesn't even matter now-because it's not going to "nail" Cheney. There is no bigger fish. It's Libby, only Libby and he'll be pardoned. As if any of that matters. Treason is what they have done and are now doubt doing right this minute while accusing EVERYONE else of it-from you for dissenting against the war-to the NYT for reporting the truth. Fitzgerald can't prosecute Cheney for an illegal war. He can't prosecute him for whatever they didn't do on 9/11. Rove was all he had and he let him walk. He was the symbol and the "heart" of Bushco. Everything Rove ever did was political. This was a political act. And by letting Rove free-I will never forgive Fitzgerald. Four hundred out of the ballpark but the one that mattered-oh fucking hum de dum. NOT GOOD ENOUGH!

There is no justice. It's over. It's always been over. See you in your next delusion, folks.

to Fitz that he cannot disclose to anybody without risking his own personal life. You know... the JFK-sort of death threat I have no doubt these evil crooks R capable of issuing under the radar, from time to time, like "don't fly in small planes..." for example.

So the 'almighty' criminal BFEE got rid of Fitz this way because, as brave as a man he can be, I doubt he's ready to "take the bullet" for the cowards in Congress...

Patrick Fitzgerald successfully prosecuted Chicago mob bosses.

It seems beyond silly to start manufacturing theories about death threats by the BFEE as a rationale for him not indicting Rove.

While true, that is of no significance. You might note that Scooter is facing serious jail time for lying to investigators when he was not under oath.

didn't Cheney talk to investigators 2-3 years ago?

No subpoena to testify before the grand jury since then.

Nothing to suggest that he's on the radar other than rampant speculation and wishful thinking, really, is there?

The news article with (presumably) his handwritten notes on it came up a while ago, which suggests that he will have to be called as a witness to authenticate his handwriting, but it seems that there is zero else going on with regard to Cheney.

that would be interesting to me... If he is called to testify in Scooter's trial, it would be at that time....

What I have seen is that Cheney has said that he may be called to testify in the Libby trial... I sure would like a front row seat if that happens......