Obama is right

"Sen. Barack Obama chastised fellow Democrats on Wednesday for failing to "acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of the American people," and said the party must compete for the support of evangelicals and other churchgoing Americans."

There is a huge difference between an acknowlegment of the power of faith and being a lapdaog to fundie political views.

I think at times in response to the Pharisees on the Right, we rally to an areligious or anti-religious position in our own politics. We do so at the sufferance of the church-attending nominally devout, agendaless muddled middle.

I think at times we too easily take the right's bait and indeed come across as Godless, because we allow ourselves to be bludgeoned by fundie sucker punches. We ought to find ways to speak to the evangelical community who is persuaded that they face a stark choice between the Zealots and the Infidel;

Liberal-ness should not be equated with Godless-ness. Our reaction to the Fundamentalist often serves to reinforce their position

A good example would be our screaming "Free speech" when Fundies rail against Hollywood obsession with gratuitous sex but not against Hollywood's obseeion wiuth gratuitous violence.

...Godless...

He needs to quit being enamoured of the sound of his own voice and STFU.....

Just how do you really feel?

He needs to pipe down and keep his presidential aspirations under control. He should have said, "We are tired of being portrayed as the anti-christian, anti-religious party when in fact the opposite is true. We welcome people of all colours, creed and orientation, just as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself did...."

If he had said something like that, it would have been fine, instead he choose to "chastise" the Dems for being intolerant of religious folks.

We don't need another person whose main expertise is gathering the circular firing-squad and doing it publicly....

did he?

He said that we "failed to acknowledge the power of faith..."

That is EXACTLY what he is saying....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13594189/

Reading the article again this guy sounds more and more whorish than before....

explains Obama's confusion.

that there is plenty of ass-kissing going on toward the "faith-based" voters from the Democrats' side.

In fact, some would say that there's a little too much ass-kissing, leading to a lot of votes that betray Democratic principles.

We do need to communicate with evangelicals, but you are making a very good point in that Obama's tactics are wrong. To talk with the evangelicals, he should just do it and lead by example rather than chastizing the rest of the Democratic Party for what he thinks they should do.

Talk about what Jesus talked about...taking care of the poor.

He's reinforcing GOP frames. I don't trust him now.... I smell a rat.

suspected of what? Conspiriing with the Fundies?

is to back a ban on abortion.

is that what you think the democrats should do?

Or abortion. No I don't think Dems should do that But I do think we tned to want to ignore of spew nbile at what we do not understand. And it starts with undertanding the difference between fundies and evangelicals.

"...said the party must compete for the support of evangelicals..."

how does one "compete for the support" without some type of appeasement?

and btw- the VAST majority of fundies are ONE ISSUE voters- and that issue is abortion. that's what you need to understand about the difference between fundies and evangelicals. although a lot of evangelicals are also fundies.

salted with disappointment. Then again, I have been repeatedly disappointed by Obama.

So I read exactly what he said. And to my surprise, I found myself agreeing with what he wrote. I am not a person of faith. To the contrary, I view the "extreme" faithful as suffering from a mental illness. But I recognize that so much ignorance, deliberate stupidity runs rampant through many parts of this country, and that self-promoting, greedy self-proclaimed sheeple-herders of the soul do "control" a sizeable percentage of our population.

Nice post about Obama, by the way.

:puke:

LOL' You people kill me with this stuff.

I have no problem with Obama expressing his opinions. Theyre just opinions.

MSRNC.COM is already running with this story...

Of course, in a big tent, and the line snakes a bit!

It cracks me up how if someone comes down in acceptable fashion on one hotbutton issue, they're suddenly the Messiah (without looking at their full record) but if someone strays from a particular ideological path on an issue of overriding import to some, they're Karl Rove in disguise.

If there's any firing squad, it's comprised of lockstep ideologues inside the tent!!!

If the right can explain how a war, tax cuts for the rich and energy companies, benefit cuts for the poor, and an exploding deficit fit with Jesus' view on the world - I will be happy and start sending money to the RNC and Jerry Falwell.

Until then, they should keep in mind the liberal views of their Maker.

We are so fed up with the RW we wind up pissing on the evangelicals who think they are whackos and that we are Godless.

passages in the Bible - both OT and NT - to back their claims. In doing so, they overlook the crux of Jesus' message - which is basically we're all stuck here, so take care of each other.

Even worse, I thought Jesus came to Earth to throw out the OT and present a kinder, gentler Father in Heaven. The fundies still tout a malicious god who will strike you down for the least little inadequacies.

Of course, it's easier to hold those items closely which are dear to your heart. And if your heart is black, it's easy to find hate and ignorance anywhere.

But saying that "under God" in the pledge is okay is catapaulting their propoganda.

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WHo ever sad I was. I am simply saying that if the DEMs choose to ignore the religious among us, we can scarcely expect to become the majority party

Religion belongs in church.

End
Of
Story

*ducks*

and the homeless and the hungry and the spat upon and the meek and the humble... In the SOuth. Screw them too?

:sarcasm:

:puke: :sarcasm:

He said the exact opposite. Liberals (myself included) sometimes torment the ultra-right-wing-fundamentalists which can rub off the wrong way that liberals disagree with all tenants of the mentioned religion.

DU is getting crazy about the issue of religion. I left my Southern Baptist church because of its support for the war, but I still have strong connections with people like that.

I am not sure why there is so much contempt for our leaders trying to reach out right now.

I don't have to agree with all he said, but I am alarmed we don't think we need to talk across the aisle.

Thanks for having the courage to post this.

There are ways for those in leadership positions to reach out without denigrating those that are agnostics or atheists. Whatever happened to the idea of a neutral public arena?

"It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase `under God,'" he said.

I don't believe that statement is degrading to atheists or agnostics. You may disagree with him as to what consequences it has on children... but that is another matter.

If the pledge said "One nation under Allah", would Christians be OK with just silently allowing it? It wouldn't be brainwashing them, would it?

and living great lives because of it were put down or excluded by liberal attitudes at times. When every single breakthrough in human rights or child rights or labour right or civil rights was the two working together. Often within the same person.

They used to form a part of the New Deal coalition untill the Pukes used the "family values" rhetoric to get then to switch. This is why we need to concentrate on economic issues, the Pukes WANT us to obsess of social issues because it keeps the socially conservative left-wingers on thier side.

conflict with what the evangelicals mean by "christianity". We favor women's rights, we're pro-choice, we are sickened by discrimination against gays and lesbians, we believe there are more types of families than just the traditional man/woman + 2 kids configuration. And on and on. Just how are we supposed to appease these people without giving up on our most cherished beliefs and goals. I don't see how we can be reconciled with bigots who believe that Jesus would carry a concealed weapon were he walking the streets of NYC today. Not possible.

In your attempt to show all the problems with extreme right-wing evangelical republicans, you have just classified ALL evangelicals and labeled them bigots. THIS is the kind of talk that furthers the divide.

Some of them would have GAY people murdered. They have no problem with a woman dying because she wants no more children, or those children to be that are a danger to her health. They want me shunned and consigned to hell. Who do you think they are? No SEX for you unless you are married. You are going to hell if you aren't a virgin. Who do you think they are? They are the American Taliban. And the extreme ones-the extreme ones that the Republican right as worked so hard to give power to and now have it-are always a miniority. Just like the Taliban in Afghanistan. And you DON'T Appease them. You stop them NOW before your rights are gone.

COme one that is pretty bigoted response full of hyperbole and venon and stereotyping.

What about the other 50+ million that are genuinely good people but are seen stereotypically (by many DUers) as what you have just described. Please keep in mind that not 100% of them even voted for Bush in 2004. 21% voted for Kerry. Shall we just completely turn our backs on them so that in 2008 it can be 100% for TO_BE_NAMED_REPUBLICAN_CANDIDATE?

the RW Fundies say we are all Godless and and we respond with all evangelicals are bigots????

I have never met an evangelical who does not fit the stereotype I've produced here. If these people exist, they are few and far between. I do wish you could prove me wrong but I sincerely believe that you cannot.

Millard Fuller who started Habitat for Humanity
Jim Wallis Sojourners.net
Tony Campolo and evangelical Preacher from Philly

I've read a fair amount of Jimmy Carter's work. I'm not sure I would agree that his personal beliefs don't fit the stereotype either. However he is not inclined to foce those beliefs on others, which is a good thing.

I understand why you hate the stereotype, I do. But stereotypes often arise because they reflect the truth. IMHO.

Jimmy Carter has been a friend of the family for years. My brother in Law worked at the Carter Center.
I worked for a year at the Habitat HQ in Americus GA
I have met Jim Wallis on occassion. My sister did pro bono work for him in the Eighties.
Campolo is the only one of the four I have not met.

But you have to understand it was not my politics that brought me in touch with these folks it was my faith.

My Dad grew up in Macon, GA in the early fifties and he used to give "Little RIchard" Pennyman two bits to hambone for him.

A few years later he was working with the Freedom Riders in Mississipi. When MLK was shot. my dadleft the cushy suburbs and spent several days in the bowels of Newark as it burned trying to put thing back together. In 1971 and 1972 and 1973 we marched on Washington to protest for peace in SOuth east asia.

My faith makes me a Democrat and I am pretty tired of people who have no sense of history, who forget abouyt the role religion played in abolotion and the cicil right struggle. I get pretty tired of folks who think Christians ought to move to the proverbia back of the bus. because Jesus has no place in modern culture.

of changing my opinion. I was once a christian, although not an evangelical. At 41 I became utterly disillusioned, very much as a consequence of the words and deeds of other christians. And over the last two years my faith has changed so much as to be unrecognizable. I have read the bible and do know from whence cometh much of the hate-filled and misogynistic messages spouted by many christian leaders as "truth".

I apologize if I've offended you like so many others. But I am not uninformed, nor am I without personal faith. And I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. Pax.

we can't ignore the role religion played in establishing and perpetuating slavery, and the institutions that made it necessary for the civil rights struggle.

Religion's role has not been all sunshine and rainbows, Perky. And considering Christians run the party, I highly doubt anyone has ever asked you to "move to the back of the bus."

Many of them do not wear their religion on their sleeves. I'm sure you have met many evangelicals who are good and caring people, but did not tell you nor did they wear a hat that said "I'M EVANGELICAL".

There are liberal evangelicals, in the mold of Jimmy Carter, and a few of them post here, but they are not part of the so-called 'evangelical movement'. There's a problem with definition, here. The 'evangelical movement' is a conservative social/political movement founded in the fundamentalist evangelical community. It has nothing to do with liberal evangelicals. By broad-brushing evangelicals as being all party to the fascistic movement we alienate people who should be allied with us.

To be evangelical means only to be active, not passive, in their religion by spreading the gospel. Liberal evangelicals have always been around, as members of mainstream congregations. They may even outnumber the fundamentalist evangelicals, but they are not organized in the way the fundies are. And they already vote with us.

We're not going to convince the fundies.

The only purpose for this sort of talk is to marginalize the left.

esp. your definition of "evangelical". If I'm not aware that they're evangelical, then they're not evangelical. Hey - I've met a fair number of these people with whom I'd be happy to have a meal. But do I believe we will ever be able to meet eye to eye morally or politically? I do not.

religion other than Christian or Jewish? Obama is playing right into their hands by repeating this meme. Dems should continue to spew their god talk as they already do and add a dose of anti-GOP moralizing with a swizzle of Jesus in it. Responding to allegations that are untrue only buttresses the allegations.

Perhaps not the best word, but the Democrats need to remain "liberal" in allowing other "voices", and stop closing so many doors. We can't remain shouting from our individual closets of freedom of choices, birth control, gay marriage, gays in the military, illegal immigrants, free trade, religion, and numerous other onerous factions.
Being a "Democrat" for the next few years should mean helping "to return to Democracy" even at some cost to minority persuasions!
The real leader will use every means to attempt to bring all the people into the one great standing agreement that the US of America can, and should be, once again the greatest leading nation in the world and conquer adversity with pride and peace.

...does that mean throwing the freedom of choice under the bus, or does it just mean that we prohibit gays from marrying?

Religion belongs in church.

besides a few excellent speeches...every time he opens his mouth it's to support and kiss some conservative Dem's ass like Liebermann, etc...that might do him some good...

If evangelicals want to come to the democratic party let them come, but the democratic party should NOT change it's ideology to bring in the church...it's complete bullshit...

Anyway, the issues have very little to do with winning elections....the republicans know and admit this, because if issues where the main reason for whom people voted, the republicans know they would hardly hold office anywhere....Republicans know to win elections you must attack the Dem's character, it's all about character and how to attack ones opponent so the real issues never surface, it's about suppressing the vote because republicans always do better in low voter turnout, it's about mudslinging which turns off democratic voters and keeps them from voting, it about raising money and the republicans have as much as they want & need.

Republicans know to make elections only about non issues(emotional non issues)like abortions gun control, gay marriage, evangelicals/church, anything to divert from the issues...Real issues have very little to do with getting elected because the Dem's have always support the issues that benefit workers, minorities, women, etc... It about making the republican candidate look like one of them, the voter, them make it about character, who the voter would want to "have a beer with".

The republicans learned a long time ago...fuck the issues we can't win on the issues...Rove & the republican know this and have known it for a very long while, and then so very effectively they attack the Dem's character, with lies & distortions, it doesn't matter anything that will stick in the voters minds is good for the republicans, and...REPETITION!!!!

Pound it in voters heads, Dem's are weak, big spender's, soft on crime, not as patriotic as republicans, and Dem's just want bigger Government...Now none of this is true, (if anything it the opposite, but even some Dem's believe this). However, the republicans who have absolutely no issues, besides keeping all the money for themselves and their corporations have been pounding these same accusation about Dem's year after year after year, every day on television & radio...and people believe it so Republicans only need to make a quick slogan..."Dem's want to Cut & Run" and people flash, yes Dem's are not as tough as the republicans...It's NOT the fucking issues, it attack the Dem's character

"Recent elections have become like a prizefights in which the Democrats are wearing soft, cushy boxing glove, the better not to hurt anyone. They stroll to the center of the ring and say to the Republicans, 'Let's be civil about this, shall we? By the way what are you doing with that knife?'

At the end of the match, the Democrats are lying on the canvas blood coursing from multiple stabs wounds. And what do they do in response? They stare at their hands and say, "Boy, I really need some better gloves. Maybe if the Deomodrat's had stronger laces. Or maybe if the gloves were a different color'...Are we religious enough? they ask. Do we need to change our position on abortion, on gun control, Do we need to find a Southerner to be our standard bearer?

Here's a radical idea: stop looking for a nicer pair of boxing gloves and pick up a knife of your own."

The democrat's belief that the key to winning elections lies in subtle tweaking of party platform. It's no accident that Republican losses are not greeted with debates on whether their party should change, because they understand the laundry list(issues)that make up the party platform has only a marginal impact on whether they win or lose...

So the republicans attack & attack & attack the Dem's, leaving them on the defensive, thinking maybe they should change their ideas on issues...The Dem's never fucking get it!!!

And I agree with you wholeheartdely, especially the part about looking for new gloves.

I have said for YEARS, the only way to beat this guys is to take them on at their own game...

that's it, now closer, just a little bit closer... Perfect.....

Freak that, I am not moving toward the center, I am staying out in left-field and I am tired of the Democratic Consultants trying to make us look like we are republican lite....

There is no choice if you have republican or republican lite, which would you choose..

We must give them a party that is not like this other party that has failed at everything they touched.. We don't have to act like them to win the hearts and minds of people....

I'm agnostic, but my impression frankly, is liberal Christians are simply more polite, more "Christ" like, and follow the more lovingly interpreted teachings of Jesus far more closely than their fundie counterparts.

The fundamentalists are a well heeled, well oiled machine. They feed on fear, and false feelings of superiority.

I had a completely disabled patient with a degenerative disease one time who sent a tithe to this disgusting church. The followers of this particular church (from a upper middle class neighborhood no less) believed prayer would heal his conditions and encouraged him, even as his condition continued to deteriorate. I believe that THEY believed in what they were doing, but it was hard to watch. He'd also get mail from Benny Hinn asking for money. He was on Medicare.

One of the nurses I worked with,who happened to be a minister of a more liberal church--I forget which one, talked to him and finally told him that he WOULD be healed, but not necessarily in this life. She put it far better than that, and gave him some real comfort, from the tenants of her Christian faith, instead of that "give me money and we'll heal you bullshit.

So I agree and disagree I guess. There are many people of faith who really do good things, practice loving kindness and non-judgmental acts of charity. and I hate to see them lumped together with the insane twisted brand of religion promoted these days.

We've overcome a billion hurdles to form clubs in fundie school districts due to local prejudices and biases, and now some of you are saying we have no right to those clubs (all outside of school hours), because faith "has no place in schools." My faith is an integral part of who I am, and you can be damn sure I'm going to talk about it in public, and have a club at the local library or college, if I choose to have one.

Some of you seem to be saying that any attempt by Wiccans or Pagans to meet in a public school would constitute an "endorsement" by the school, and be illegal. I sincerely hope this is not the official position of the Democratic Party, or I may have to find someone else to support in elections.

I'm glad Obama had the guts to at least say something that supported the rights of people of faith, and not treat them like ingrates or superstitious idiots. It's too bad he's being thoroughly denounced for it here.

welcomed & embraced in the democratic party and there are many... Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Methodist, Protestants, Baptist, Catholics, etc. in the Democratic party...and have ALWAYS been welcomed and a huge part of what makes up the very open and diverse Democratic party.

Obama was grand standing again as usual...Exactly what the republicans want to hear...Dem's fighting and doubting their own party ideology.

The "evangelicals" he speaks of don't want any part of the democratic party anyway... the same evangelicals and fundamentalist like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson who "control" the millions of southern baptist...Who don't believe in a women's right to choose, or a gay person to wed someone they love, or sex before marriage etc...Where would these "evangelicals" fit into the democratic party?

Change democratic ideology for them, to bring them in...fuck that, the progressive democratic party is for ALL peoples rights and always has been, not just for the selected narrow minded & loud few...

Obama is so full of shit!

or at least a huge leap in logic. Did Obama say word one about chaging what we believe?

if he didn't want change for his ridiculous views and observations...then why was he scolding the democratic party, with his usual moderate, narrow minded DLC scope, to simply grand-stand? Get fucking real, learn what the word "insinuation" means, sweets!!!

I hate fucking moderates...they have no ideology of their own...they just pick and choose what they hear and are easily swayed by any huckster...No real commitment...they make me sick...including moderate clowns here!!!

Undependable, backstabbing moderates are worst than republicans in my book!!!

And that's just who, the climbing to the top, over anyone, Obama to get noticed and what's best for him, is appearing more and more to be...

A good example would be our screaming "Free speech" when Fundies rail against Hollywood obsession with gratuitous sex but not against Hollywood's obseeion wiuth gratuitous violence.

Do you want the Democratic Party to be in favor of censorship?

Should we favor or oppose abortion rights?

Should we favor or oppose homosexual rights, including the right to marry?

Should we favor or oppose posting the 10 Commandments in courtrooms and schools?

Should we favor or oppose allowing churches to endorse candidates and lobby politically, while keeping their tax-exempt status?

Should we favor or oppose keeping "under God" in the pledge and "In God We Trust" on currency?

Should we favor or oppose using tax dollars to fund "faith-based" evangelical programs?

At the end of all that, will we still be Democrats?

Look there is nothing in mu op that suggested appeasement or being other than a sold-out dem. I am merely suggesting that Obama's comments are actually pretty spot-on when you take an objective lookt at the responses to my OP.

What I am suggesting as well is that we should go after the fundies for their hypocrisy but we should do so in ways that bridge the gap to religious among us us who while not agreeing with the fundies or the uber-liberals and Godless could find a home in the Democratic party.

Some of the posts here really make that kind of hard and pretty bmuch validate what Obama was saying.

Why is it so difficult for people who disgree about the role of religion in life to be polite and kind. Just because the Findies are wackoes does not mean we need to treat our detractors the same way.

You, like Obama, are mouthing the right-wing lies and validating them, but you aren't proposing any specific actions other than "don't piss off Christians."

Well, how are we pissing them off? What Dems with national or even regional exposure go on TV or the airwaves and denounce Christians or Christianity?

What specifically do you propose the Democratic Party should do to "win back" these Christians that might not even have been ours to begin with?

IMO, it's simply un-American. That is one reason why I do not vote for republicans.

I believe in our U.S. Constitution and the separation of church and state. Those who don't are welcome to move to Iran.

on his first day on the job. He was a dem right up until he got elected and then he switched. I'm sick of people trying to make a silk purse out of this sows ear.

only 11 percent of black evangelicals vote Republican

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/living/religion/11929261.htm

of their religion. What he is doing is patronizing a group of people in order to raise money.

I think that Dems are just as religious as other political group and but they don't need a bunch of stickers on their car telling the world about it.