Why shouldn't I be able to charge smokers with assault?

I have asthma and I'm allergic to cigarette smoke. If I'm in a bar and someone punches me in the face, I can charge them with a crime. If I'm in a bar and someone gives me an asthma attack and headache, plus poisons me with a drug that can kill me, its their "right" to do so. A punch in the face sounds preferable. At least it won't stop me from breathing and kill me years later. Since second hand smoke causes more harm than physical assault, why shouldn't I be able to call the cops and charge those who smoke in public with a crime?

While we're at it, we should charge the corporate and advertising executives at tobacco companies for being serial killers and give them multiple life sentences. They deserve it for getting children addicted to deadly drugs.

Redstone

Why should I have to be a hermit because others want to attack me with smoke?

SKY HIGH rhetoric. Get real. Cars produce more toxic pollutants - in both toxicity and volume. Sue every driver! Call the police!

ONE thing I agree with some conservatives about - hardcore nanny-statists are fucking pussies.

than the ridiculous "right and freedom" to smoke talk I've been hearing. Yes, I'm flipping the rhetoric on its head to challenge those who claim its their right to harm others.

Your nanny-state comment is completely irrelevant to this discussion. That phrase typically refers to the government stopping people from hurting themselves. I'm not arguing against a persons right to smoke a highly addictive drug with no decent high in their own home. Its about other people affecting me, and yes it does amount to an attack on my health. If someone slipped a pill in another persons drink in a bar that give them an asthma attack and a risk of cancer, they could be charged with a crime for poisoning. How is this any different?

A vast number of people, smokers or not, are doubtlessly utterly indifferent to you. Since mickeying your drink is a premeditated act, its in an entirely diffrerent class.

And you ARE talking like a nanny-statist - calling for govt. or police intervention into your every complaint.

People who smoke know the effect it has on others. It is therefore a premeditated act.

I bet you call laws against murder "nanny-state" laws too. This has nothing to do with protecting people from themselves, which is what a nanny-state is. You either don't understand the term or you don't understand the effect of second hand smoke.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

are misusing the term "nanny state." We're talking about interaction between people, not a case of government protecting people from themselves, which is the meaning of a nanny state.
And yes, this argument is "out there" but I think its a valid discussion to have and more reasonable that what I hear from smoking advocates.

And "nanny state" is a somewhat broader term than you seem to think.

Some of us simply believe that smoking is being used as scapegoat for all the world's evils and don't buy for a cotton-picking minute that every thing bad is attributed to second-hand smoke.

Sorry. It's not a lack of understanding. It's a mistrust of motive of some of the research.

second hand smoke. They estimate 400+ babies die from SIDS caused by second hand smoke every year. I suppose that isn't as important as someone's 'right' to exhale in their faces. I remember when people used to smoke in grocery stores. It isn't about nanny-statism or whatever. Its about health, public health. If someone is drunk, they can't drive because their actions hurt others. Same with smoking and it isn't just a 'nanny state' thing. Read this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/27/AR2006062700710.html

U.S. Details Dangers of Secondhand Smoking
'Serious Health Hazard' Is Cited

By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, June 28, 2006; Page A01

Secondhand smoke dramatically increases the risk of heart disease and lung cancer in nonsmokers and can be controlled only by making indoor spaces smoke-free, according to a comprehensive report issued yesterday by U.S. Surgeon General Richard H. Carmona.

"The health effects of secondhand smoke exposure are more pervasive than we previously thought," Carmona said. "The scientific evidence is now indisputable: Secondhand smoke is not a mere annoyance. It is a serious health hazard that can lead to disease and premature death in children and nonsmoking adults."

According to the report, the government's most detailed statement ever on secondhand smoke, exposure to smoke at home or work increases the nonsmokers' risk of developing heart disease by 25 to 30 percent and lung cancer by 20 to 30 percent. It is especially dangerous for children living with smokers and is known to cause sudden infant death syndrome, respiratory problems, ear infections and asthma attacks in infants and children.

The report -- which was applauded and embraced by public-health and tobacco-control advocates -- found that nearly half of all nonsmoking Americans are still regularly exposed to smoke from others. It concludes that any exposure to secondhand smoke is a risk to nonsmokers, and as a result the only way to protect nonsmokers is to eliminate indoor smoking.

argument used against global warming science.

That report showed that pipe smokers live longer than non smokers.
Or do we only trust reports that conform to our worldview?

you eighty-six your argument with blather like that. cite something closer to the here and now, not something that was 42 years ago when things weren't as possible to know as now. Good grief. what a
laughable question.

15 years later the original findings were corroborated with more extensive research by the Surgeon General.
Pipe smokers, smoking less than 4 bowls a day had a lower mortality ratio than non-smokers.
Pipe smokers smoking more 4-10 bowls a day had a statistically insignificant increase in mortality from 1.00 to 1.01.

See section 13:

http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/NN/B/C/M/D/_/nnbcmd.pdf

And speaking of laughable "science":

"Thirty-three studies on secondhand smoke had been completed by 1993. More than 80 percent of the studies reported no association between secondhand smoke and lung cancer, including the largest of the studies. The EPA reviewed 31 studies - inexplicably omitting two studies reporting no association between secondhand smoke and lung cancer - and estimated secondhand smoke caused 3,000 lung cancer deaths annually."

report in THIS millennium?

The EPA report, an analysis of then-existing studies, is the most common source used by media and special-interest groups; a report not only dismissed by the scientific community and U.S. Congress as invalid, but legally declared as such by the courts.<1> How can research go so wrong? The problem began when the EPA announced the conclusion they intended to reach, prior to completing the work. When the results ultimately proved their assumptions false, it became necessary to manipulate the data. Obviously, determining what you wish the facts to establish, rather than allowing the evidence to control the conclusion, is not science, but politics.

The EPA seemed doomed to fail from the start. Of thirty-three available studies, they chose thirty. Of these, only six indicated a small, yet statistically significant risk from second-hand smoke. Eighteen established that there is no danger, and six found exposure to be beneficial. Deciding to compile their data from only eleven selected studies that might support the EPA’s beliefs, the results indicated that when correct scientific methodology was applied, the final conclusion proved that there is no statistically significant effect.

Once again the EPA data had proven their presumptions wrong, so for the final report, they simply changed the standard scientific guidelines to create a result that, even then, suggested a barely significant correlation between tobacco smoke and health.

The World Health Organisation had embarked on a lengthy, tightly controlled, research project<2> prior to the release of the EPA report, meant to counter the preponderance of evidence indicating that second-hand smoke was harmless. In 1998 they had their answer: no statistically significant negative impact, and in fact children raised by parents who smoke are twenty-two percent less likely to develop lung cancer<3[br />
http://www.reasoned.org/e_study.htm

Pit the smokers against the non smokers so they will fight amongst themselves about some perceived pollution. That way we won't recognize and fight with them about true environmental pollution.

In our town, we have a huge factory that spews out mountains of stinky smoke a day. And we have a Mickey D's on every corner. No one says a word. But light up a cigarette and everyone becomes "the victim".

It's a campaign that has been going on for a while. People just don't recognize it as such. And they internalize the victimization with the indignant righteousness. Just another stepping stone to incorporating more hatred toward one another into our society.

Keep them bickering at one another so they won't bicker with us. It is the oldest trick in the book.

But...if one would just think for a moment... these people don't care about our health. If they did, we would have a universal health care system. Or at the very least...AFFORDABLE health care.

arguing with the fact that it is an asthma trigger. People with asthma can have a reaction to cigarette smoke that's worse than healthy people's to pepper spray. Why shouldn't second hand exposure be limited?

I am violently allergic to 99% of perfumes (just about every type of scent actually, Febreeze kills me). I have asthma attacks when around it, develop migraines, and, if I spend more than a few minutes in close proximity to a heavy perfume wearer, I break out in hives. How do I cope? I avoid situations where I'll be exposed to it. I've gotten off of buses and elevators because of it. Do I get pissed? Well, sure, but I don't run around trying to force all perfume wearers to stay in their homes just to accomodate my allergies.

I do not frequent bars where there is a "high-class" crowd, big department stores, or other places where people are more likely to be wearing perfume. I've adjusted. I don't even go down the laundry detergent aisle in the grocery store, I just make a commando-style gas attack snatch and grab to get my hypo-allergenic detergent. I do not expect the world to tailor itself to my specific needs.

"shrug" worse than Republicans these smoker advocates are...

:thumbsup:

biopower. awful.

patronize. Unless of course you just like to stir up trouble.

There are no smoke-free bars within 200 miles of me and only two smoke-free restaraunts. Smokers are taking away my right to go out and enjoy public places.

Santa Rosa, CA just passed a law prohibiting smoking in outdoor public spaces.

California is the place for you.

Since smokers think I need to move.

Since they're the ones forcing me to do so.

i don't like drinkers..they kill people instantly with cars..so can i sue you when you drink and drive?? or do you walk to your bars??????????????

yeah right..you walk to bars right??????????????????

fly

if smokers can't go a few hours without satisfying their addiction, THEY are the ones who should have to stay home.

If so I'd suggest shutting up now, cars throw more carcinogens and irritants into the atmos the second you start the ignition than I as a pack a day smoker produce in a month.

When you stop using cars (that includes any buses or taxis you ride in) I'll promise to only smoke at home.

There's a reason why we now have unleaded gas, CAFE standards to increase gas mileage, and why I support stricter standards. The government already regulates cars because of pollution, so I say we should do the same for smokers. Good comparison, but its one that doesn't work in your favor.

"No smoke free bars within 200 miles"? So you have visited every bar within 200 miles?

I highly doubt that.

Go ahead and file a police report, I am sure they will chuckle quietly, if not loudly.

no message

different parts of the country. When my daughter looked at colleges on the east coast, she was surprised at how much smoking she ran into there.

Redstone

Besides California? Around here the only bar like that is in on Make-believe Lane. The same is true in most cities.

befoe the Nanny Laws tooke effect.

Redstone

Bars, restaurants all smoke free.

just surpassed LA as having the most toxic air in America, despite the toughest smoking ban in the US. Of course, we New Yorkers aren't even informed of this. I read it in the LA Times.
More than 11,000 New Yorkers die every year, smoking factored into the number, just from breathing the filth that passes for "air" here. One out every 714 NYers dead from auto and factory pollution every twelve months.
A person would be much better off living in Montana and visiting a smokey bar once a week, than living in this this poisonous brew of auto and industrial exhaust.


Copy of LA Times article (no registration):
http://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/pivot/entry.php?id=492

they may beat allegheny county...

btw... it was 8 @ 7.50 each last friday....

and i would have felt better if there were no smoke - fucking hangover multiplier

nt

so I can fly there on weekends?

Take the Amtrack to Rockville and the Metro to Bethesda. The Metro runs until 3AM on weekends. I'd buy you that jet, but I'd have no money left to hit the Bethesda bars. They ain't the cheapest.

like to swap locales with you.

;-)

bars!!

and street corners..there was a study done when i lived in LA.....that young children never exposed to cig smoke but lived near major intersections and exposed to 15 minutes of car pollution a day, for a year.. ...had the lung damage of someone who smoked 5 pks a day for 50 years!

if they're so addicted to their drug that they can't help but inflict their pollution on others. There's no reason I should be punished for someone else's deadly addiction.

obviously you do not care about the dust mites and mold in a bar..or the germs in the bar and bacteria in the bars that are just as big of triggers for your asthma..so why sould someone else have to protect you, when you don't protect yourself?????????

fly

what triggers my asthma the most since its different for everyone. This is another ridiculous comparison.

largest research project being done nationwide by a major pharm company, he is head of dept looking for cure and medicine...with the largest federal grant for research..

and my son has asthma..we discuss it all the time! and how close they are coming to a major break through treatment

this man has a triple phd from duke, tulane , and johns hopkins!

fly

http://www.healthinsite.gov.au/topics/Causes_of_Asthma

i would tend to believe if you really have asthma..a bar with its mold and old stale beer and bacteria would be the last place anyone with asthma would want to be..let alone cig smoke..the other triggers, would most likely get you first!!


oh and don't bother to try to sue the weatherman when the cold weather triggers your asthma!!

fly

http://respiratory-lung.health-cares.net/asthma-causes.php

What causes asthma?
During an asthma attack, the smooth muscle layer goes into spasm, narrowing the airway. The middle layer swells because of inflammation, and more mucus is produced. In some segments of the airway, the mucus forms clumps that nearly or completely block the airway. These clumps are called mucus plugs. In most cases, asthma is caused by inhaling an
allergen that sets off the chain of biochemical and tissue changes leading to airway inflammation, bronchoconstriction, and wheezing. Because avoiding (or at least minimizing) exposure is the most effective way of treating asthma, it is vital to identify which allergen or irritant is causing symptoms in a particular patient.
In an asthma attack, the smooth muscles of the bronchi narrow (called bronchoconstriction), and the tissues lining the airways swell from inflammation and secrete mucus into the airways. The top layer of the lining of the airways can become damaged and shed cells. These actions further narrow the diameter of the airways; the narrowing requires the person to exert more effort to move air in and out of the lungs. In asthma, airway obstruction is reversible, meaning that with appropriate treatment or on their own, the muscular contractions of the airways stop, the airway obstruction ends, and the airflow into and out of the lungs returns to normal. This damage results in the development of easily irritated bronchial tubes, which is called hyper-responsiveness. This condition is then causes the lungs to become excessively "twitchy" and to react (or overreact) to previously non-allergic stimuli, such as cold weather, pollution, dry air, and chemical odors. The also-twitchy bronchial tubes will react by going into spasm, which leads to the symptoms of shortness of breath, coughing, wheezing, and chest tightness. This entire process is possibly reversible if caught early in its onset by establishing preventive measures or treating with appropriate medication.

In a person who has asthma, the airways narrow in response to stimuli that usually do not affect the airways in normal lungs. The narrowing can be triggered by many inhaled allergens, such as pollens, particles from dust mites, body secretions from cockroaches, particles from feathers, and animal dander. These allergens combine with immunoglobulin E (a type of antibody) on the surface of mast cells to trigger the release of asthma-causing chemicals from these cells. (This type of asthma is called allergic asthma.) Although food allergies induce asthma only rarely, certain foods (such as shellfish and peanuts) can induce severe attacks in people who are sensitive to these foods.

The symptoms of asthma occur when some trigger causes the lung’s airways to swell and produce excess mucus. The smooth muscles that line the airways (called bronchioles) contract, narrowing the airways and making it difficult to breathe. The most common triggers are substances to which the child is allergic, such as household dusts or molds, animal dander, or pollen. Triggers can also be irritants, such as perfumes, aerosol sprays, air pollution, or cigarette smoke. Some children have asthma attacks when exposed to cold air, during times of stress, or when they engage in physical exercise. Upper respiratory infections can also trigger an asthma attack.

Inflammation is our body's response to foreign or toxic substances that enter or come in contact with the body. Inflammation is caused by the arrival of blood and protective cells into the area involved. When a bacterial infection occurs somewhere in our body, white blood cells blood rush to the infected site and try to either destroy the bacteria or isolate and neutralize their harmful effects. Inflammation causes mucus to build up in these tubes, cutting down on the space available to move air. Inflammation also stimulates the muscles around these tubes to contract, narrowing the tubes and further cutting down the airflow. Although inflammation is the root of all asthma, the trigger for this inflammation is different for different people. Inflammation is an important part of your body's response to injury or infection. Basically, inflammation is the immune system's call to action. Signals sent by the immune system recruit an army of cells to fight off invaders, such as bacteria or viruses. They also start the healing process when there are signs of tissue damage.

In people with asthma, the lungs and airways overreact to foreign substances in the air, such as cat hair, mold or pollution. Sometimes even clean, cold air can constrict the airways, especially in people with exercise-induced asthma. In many ways, asthma is a type of allergic reaction, which is why many people with asthma also see an allergy specialist to help manage their condition.

thanks for posting an article about asthma because I've never read anything about the condition I've lived with my entire life. :eyes:

the bar with or without smoke would be the worst place in the world for you!

SO WILL YOU SUE THE BAR FOR HAVING GERMS/bacteria THAT TRIGGER YOUR ASTHMA?????????

or how about restaurants that have carpets?? chock full of mites and bacteria ready to attack your lungs!!..woooo...there you have a serious problem..so are you ignoring that ??? where do you stop your law suits?????????

fly

:)


And while I know that your rhetoric is over the top, I am constantly amazed at the denial of smokers. Shit people, at least admit that smoking is a nasty vile habit that really does affect other people who are around you, whether they want to breathe in the toxins or not.

So's picking your nose, farting and belching, talking in movie theatres, tailgating and failing to discipline your rugrats- to name just a few.

A smoker's habit does. You want to kill yourself with the cancer sticks, go for it. I'd personally rather you not, but it isn't my choice to make for you. But neither is it your choice to make for me by exposing me (unwillingly) to second hand smoke. It really is that simple.

......It does stink.

I think maybe smokers aren't aware of how bad it truly smells. It's a documented fact that smoking deadens one's sense of smell.

My nose is working at optimal function, and I am here to tell you, cigarette smoke stinks!

Now watch, some smoker will chime in to say "no it doesn't". :crazy:

I'm one of the first to admit it's a filthy, albeit highly addictive habit. But honestly, I don't know any smoker who wouldn't agree.

I'm also the first to admit that about the only places I smoke anymore are on my apt. balcony, my truck and outside.

I lived in Beaumont for a work project for a year and a half a good many years back. It seemed pretty conservative to me. This no-smoking law and another comment I heard someone make about "liberals over in Beaumont" makes me wonder....does Beaumont lean more to the left than other parts of Texas? Yikes! And only a few miles away from Vidor, TX, where the KKK practically patrol the streets after dark.

So sick, so sad that this happens in America. :cry:

a bar you can smoke in in "most cites!!"

nonsence..its we smokers who have been "banned " in "most cities!"

fly

Hmm, all of California, New York, Dallas, Austin... fucking move.

"fucking" pay my moving expenses? You and all other smokers who think I need to move can pay for it.

or go live in a fascist country!

fly

no smoking in any indoor public spaces

my naming a bunch of bars in other states, as though that is realistic or reasonable. funny. I guess us non-smokers can just travel several hours or days if we want to go out to a bar.

you are the one who claimed it was impossible to find a city where there were non-smoking bars. We just provided entire states and cities where there are many of them. It's not our fault that your state legislators haven't gotten around to banning smoking where you live. Write to them to provoke the move. It'll do more good than talking about sueing smokers on this message board.

whether they allow smokers or not, most bar owners realise that even non smokers often smoke when they drink so prefer to allow it, if you don't like it take it up with the owners, they're providing a service for the majority of their customers.

There are lots of bars in the Chicagoland area that now are smoke-free or have added smoke-free areas. The Hopleaf and Morseland have no smoking sections. Rhythm on West Randolph and The Indigo Lounge in Evanston are completely smoke-free. Here's a list of even more from the Chicago Lung Association: http://www.lungchicago.org/site/epage/34768_487.htm

Here's the new smoking ordinance, just in case you haven't taken the time to familiar yourself with it.

When and where is smoking being prohibited?
As of January 16, 2006, smoking is prohibited in:

* All enclosed workplaces;
* All restaurants without a bar area;
* All restaurant areas more than 15 feet from the bar counter;
* Within 15 feet of the entrance to enclosed public places;

As of July 1, 2008, smoking will also be prohibited in:

* All Restaurants, including Restaurants with Bar Areas; and
* All Bars and Taverns

http://www.smokefreechicago.org/

Then there's downstate: http://www.smokefreechicago.org/

Springfield City Council Passes Smoking Ban!
The Springfield City Council approved the ordinance that will effectively ban smoking in nearly all Springfield workplaces - including restaurants, bars and taverns. The ban goes into effect on September 17, 2006 at 3:00 a.m. You can read more about the ordinance and the City Council vote in the here.

Champaign/Urbana passed a ban: http://www.cu-smokefree.org/

Bloomington: http://www.smokefreeillinois.org/BN/

Bloomington joins Normal by Passing a 100% Smoke Free Law
On Monday, May 8, 2006, Bloomington, IL became the 16th Illinois community to pass their own Clean Indoor Air law. The new law will make all public places, including bars and restaurants, smoke free. While many different alternatives and loopholes were discussed during the council meeting, each alternative failed when brought to a vote. One amendment did pass, which removed language regulating smoking in outdoor public places, such as parks.

Aldermen Huette, Hanson, Crawford, and Matejka voted 'yes', causing Mayor Stockton to cast a tie breaking 'yes' vote. The 100% smoke free ordinance passed 5-4 and goes into effect on January 1, 2007. Bloomington's sister city, Normal, also passed a 100% smoke free law the previous week, and goes into effect the same date.

So seriously, nobody is trying to assault you. You have options. Chill with the rhetoric, 'kay?

Signed,
An Asthmatic Non-Smoker Who Does Her Research

I know my city very well and I'm fully aware of the smoking bans in downstate that have not gone into effect yet and the one in Bloomington being challenged in courts by the smoking lobby. You forgot to mention Champaign/Urbana.

New York City, London, Boston, Miami, Los Angeles, Baltimore, and a slew of other cities currently have no smoking laws. In the Northeast you can not smoke in New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachussetts, Rhode Island, and other states, I am sure, in bars and restaurants. (Exception is Atlantic City!) Non smoking bars and restaurants are not only sweeping the US, but also the world. London and Dublin have enacted bans in their bars. It's insane to think that there isn't a non-smoking institution within two hundred miles of you these days. It's truly shocking to me, living here in NYC and dealing every day with non-smoking restaurants and bars.

:smoke:

Isn't my fault you have asthma. Isn't my fault someone has any disability. Why the hell should I be a 'hermit' because of junk science, hysterics and 'superior-complexed nosy-parkers/hypochondriacs?

That said, the majority of available space on the planet is already dedicated to anti-smoking bullies.
Most of whom don't even acknowledge or care what's being done to their 'breathing zone' by big bidness. Of course, they're a harder target.

And yes, I cleaned this up quite a bit before I hit 'post'.

at work and mock cough, wave their hands, screw up their face and glare.

I just tell them to get the hell out of my designated area... no non-smokers allowed here... see my great big ash tray here? It was put here for me because this is my area, not yours. I don't allow rude non-smokers in my area.


I'd much rather be a slightly inconsiderate smoker than a completely rude non-smoker any day.

They picked it up from the republicans.

Life is too short for pontification and righteous indignation from pretentious whiners:)

:spray:

and that is outside on a windy day! It wouldn't surprise me if any day now, I'll be sitting in my car with the window down holding my cig out the window and loud dramatic hacking begins from the car sitting next to me.

I don't even smoke much, other than socially, and have cut back those too, but the righteous indignation of vehemnet anti-smokers makes me want to light up every time.

Junk science, huh? And you're so dependent on those cancer sticks that you'd have to become a hermit if you couldn't smoke in enclosed public places? Really?


And btw, I can multi task. :)

what does that mean? that you can whine and type at the same time?

Read your post and see where you said that people like me who are opposed to smoking don't care what big business spews into the air. I can focus on both, it really isn't that hard. :shrug:

the circumstances. I developed it on the job after working for a year in heavy smoking conditions. This wasn't a bar or anything; just an open office where half of the dozen or so people in the room were chain smokers. We worked with a lot of paper, too. It's amazing that someone didn't accidentally start a fire.

come to bars if you can't stand the smoke. exlusionary.

Many smoking advocates just don't seem to get how they deny the rights of others.

Nice. :thumbsup:

You need not become a hermit.

and :smoke:

:smoke:

That's what my b/f says... if I see someone smoke, here I go...


:smoke:

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:hi:

non-smoker, but I find the New Prohibitionists more offensive than second-hand smoke.

And those that do let you know that they do. So, I don't see grounds for sueing. Just don't go to those places that are smoky. Hell, since quitting, I hate the smoke myself, but when I go to places that I know will be smoky (Las Vegas Casinos and my in-laws house), I deal with it. If I feel sick, I leave. It's a choice being there. You can't control the entire environment around you at all times. Sometimes there are bad toxins out there. C'est la vie!

People with perfume sensitivities should be able to sue middle aged women at the opera! People with nut allergies should be able to sue those bastards who eat Payday bars right out in the open - that could suffocate someone!

Sue sue sue, cops cops cops.

Agree with you about charging the tobacco execs, though, 100%.

commonly cause death. And the peanut example is just silly because no one but the eater is affected.

The airborne dust can close off an allergy victim's throat just as easily as eating one. Hey, what else is airborne dust? SMOKE?

edit: sp

to document that? Haven't heard of any passengers croaking on peanuts.

is in fact WHY the airlines made that change. I don't know that anyone died, but there were incidents, and lobbying by a group of nut-allergy sufferers led to that change, and the labeling on some products that they're made in facilities where peanuts are proceesed.

or too many people easy street to 'disability' payments?

but a school up here had to get rid of all peanut products, and students couldn't bring peanut products because one student had a major allergy to nuts. So, depending upon how severe the allergy is, and if it's really severe, then yes, a person could die of air born dust from peanuts. I have a couple of family members who have this allergy as well. So we all know the drills.

As for smoking, well, I quit cold turkey if Feb when I found out I was pregnant. No matter how much I beg my boss not to, he still lights them up in the store. Currently due to being pregnant cig smoke (which I miss dearly) makes me want to puke. I lost my breakfast the other day when he lit one up inside, and I haven't had any morning sickness. And state law prohibits him from doing so, not like he gives a shit either. So, I could file a complaint, and most likely lose my job which I need badly at the moment, or I have to suck it up. How is that fair to me? (rhetorical question, not directed at you)

Btw, I have no beef with anyone who wants to smoke, my husband still smokes ( I really wish he didn't)just the people who don't bother to be courteous about it. In fact most of the ones I know are rather courteous. I see many who are not. But up here there is no smoking in bars, restaurants ect.... but people will go outside for a smoke and they'll just stand right by the entrance to the bar/restaurant. It has also caused a pretty big problem on our sidewalks with cig butts everywhere as well (even with the giant butt buckets everywhere).

If it was just me, I don't think I'd care a whole lot, but the fact that I don't want my kid exposed to it. If you have ever seen a sonogram of a pregnant woman just after she had a smoke (in her 8th month, I do believe it was) it makes an active baby (or fetus what ever floats your boat) go into a "trance" like kind of state. My nephew's mom smoked all through her pregnancy, and I have never seen such a skinny baby before. He also has asthma, tons of ear infections, and usually has some form of "goo". He's three now.

So, go a head and have the smoke, personally I don't care. Just a little common courtesy is all I ask for. I don't walk into smoking areas....please don't walk into my non-smoking area.



:hippie:

And they gave me peanuts. When did they stop serving peanuts on planes?

had just eaten peanuts?

how can you make such uneducated statements like you are??

do you know if a person with peanut allergy tells an airline they have that allergy..no peanuts are allowed boarded on an aircraft??

because peanut allergy can be deadly!!

especially in a confined place.

you are soooooo wrong ..and your statements are worse than silly!

fly

I had a close friend with the life-threatening version of lacto intolerance. If someone who ate dairy breathed on him he would itch. If milk drops left over on a diner table touched him he'd break out in hives. If he ingested even a sip of dairy he'd die in minutes.

And his life sucked because of his illness, but he didn't go around punching milk drinkers or demanding that everyone accomodate him.

And my ex-girlfriend was about as serious an asthma case as you could get. In the hospital 2-3 times a month until she was on the proper meds. And she WORKED in a fucking smoking bar.

Take your whiny shit elsewhere.

Oh...and I DON'T EVEN SMOKE!

So smokers helped put your girlfriend in the hospital on a regular basis and you don't even mind. I guess you really know how to turn the other cheek.

:smoke:

fireplace fires, trash burners, car exhaust, fireworks, camp fires all emit toxic fumes.

If they knew you would have the attack and they intentionally blew smoke in your face to cause you to have the attack that is battery. Under your scenario there is no criminal intent. You have no case.

That's a significant size of the population so that a person smoking in public with more than a few people around, such as in a bar, knows that someone near them likely has asthma.

Second, we do know second hand smoke causes cancer, so on two counts any smoker knows the they are having a negative impact on others.

You go into a bar where people are smoking and you want to be able to sue and/or prosecute because your asthma was affected. Where is your responsibility to show some level of common sense?

to show some common decency? There are no smoke-free bars. Why should an entire class of people be denied the right to go out in the evening so that a small group of people can smoke?

There are smoke free bars EVERYWHERE. It's become a *very* popular option. And many places that permit smoking are offering smoke-free happy hours. There are smoke free rock clubs now, even. There are, in fact, entire cities and I think even a state or two where smoking in bars and restaurants is forbidden altogether, a ban that's enforcable by police intervention if necessary, which should appeal to you.

By the way, upthread you were talking about smoking outdoors. Glad to see you dropped that bit of silliness.

Seriously, not a single no smoking bar, club or pub. So that means that I don't go there, which means that someone else's bad habit is limiting what I do in my own life.

Beaumont, TX (my area) has passed an oridnance which bans smoking in enclosed public places. One can still smoke, just not in a restaurant or bar or movie theater or the like. So I ask you, why is it not enough to be able to smoke in the open air? Why do smokers feel like they should have the right to impose their bad habits on others? Because they are when they smoke in public, notwithstanding their protestations to the contrary. A drunk downing a 5th 2 feet from me does nothing to me, and if s/he wants to destroy her/his liver, not my business. But there is no way for a smoker to get around the fact that second hand smoke is harmful (unless of course they write it off as junk science). So why the antagonism from smokers to the rest of us, who just want to be able to go to a pub without leaving smelling like an ashtray, with clogged sinuses and a pounding headache? I really don't get why that is so hard for some people to appreciate. :shrug:

"A drunk downing a 5th 2 feet from me does nothing to me"

If that 'drunk' is speeding their car right at you or falls asleep at the wheel with you in their path, because they are dead ass drunk, I think they are definitely a hazard to you.

You have no "right" to enter a privately owned business, the owner has a right to determine whether or not smoking is allowed there, he/she probablky figure it's better for their bottom line to allow smokers, if you don't like that don't go in there.

Bars are NOT public spaces. You have no "right" to be there at all.

Get some money together and open a smoke-free bar/restaurant. I used to smoke but I quit about 10 years ago and no normally smoke doesn't bother me.

No smoking in bars or resturants here.

Quit whining, if your area dosen't offer it... go somewhere else.

"Don't like me poisoning your air? Just move hundreds of miles away from your home!" Yeah, that's reasonable. Please.

voted to go non-smoking indoors. And the smokers still complian when they go out to the patio they forced us to go out to. Funny... they NEVER went out there until the smoking in the building ban went into effect.

you state, quote:

There are no smoke-free bars.

that is total bullshit!

and a total untruth!

come to Fla ..or LA..or NY, or NJ

or many other states..

you are so silly..and total bullshit!

fly

there are ZERO smoke free bars. Maybe you're a jet-setter who can afford to fly to another state anytime you want to go out for a drink with friends, but most of us don't have that luxury. The fact that you can name a few cities with smoke free bars is joke and completely irrelevant to everyone who doesn't live in those places.

Sorry, but you are. See post 324.

my work has been to fly darlin...if you call working <flying>.... jet setting, so be it..but i call it as i see it..if you are so ill, why do you drink??????????

and why do you need to sit in a bar??

i have never found the need to sit in a bar..so why do you need to be such a pain in the ass to people who want to embibe when you are so damn ill you have to be a thorn in their ass for your pleasure?????????

your attitude is typical of the guy who says, do as i say, not as i do...

sit home and drink your damn drinks, if you can't take the heat when everyone else is enjoying themselves..if its not a joy to you..then do not put yourself in that situation!

oh i know..you just enjoy being the victim!..the self inflicted victim!

fly

And it completely barred a tort action. Now it's just comparative negligence.

Bake

And they're not necessarily affected by smoke. Many are affected by dander. Should cats and dogs be banned next? How else can we accomodate you?

even being allergic to your own secretions can cause asthma. BBQs, camp fires, fireplace fires, fireworks, car emissions, trash burnering, even certain medications can trigger asthma attacks. It's the popular thng to blame cigarette smoke for all our ills.

I was recently diagnosed asthmatic, and the first doctor tried telling me it was because I smoked...well I've smoked off and on for a long while, and I smoke maybe 4 cigarettes a day at most if I am not in a bar or with other heavy smokers...and cigarettes don't aggravate my asthma. I asked him if he could be wrong and requested an allergy screening and he said it was definitely smoke.

So I get a 2nd opinion, get screened for allergies, and it's actually mold (some at my work) and cats (one recently decided to live with me) that aggravate my asthma the worst..cigarettes barely phase me unless I smoke a pack in a day or so.

Its the initial knee-jerk "Cigarettes are the devil" that bugs the shit out of me. Yes, I know they are unhealthy, but so are a lot of things we do and love...

...that I get respiratory distress from exposure to cigarettes because I am "allergic" to other things. Cigarettes are innocent!

Thanks for clarifying this, Doc! How could I have been so blind??????

"I have a right to poison others around me! waaah waaah!"

Since most establishments don't allow cats and dogs inside their store, that's a great comparison. Thanks for making my point.

You can't tell me that your asthma and allergies are so severe and yet they are only triggered by cig smoke.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Whether or not a person has other asthma triggers has no bearing on whether s/he should be avoiding exposure to second hand smoke . Physicians advise patients to avoid all of the patient's asthma triggers, which vary from person to person. Cigarette smoke is a pretty universal trigger, however.

service animals.

I don't see the analogy.

:smoke:

expectation of being free from cigarette smoke, I think you might have a case.

You can't sue someone for assault for punching you if you get in a boxing ring with them. You can't sue someone for assault for blowing smoke in your face in a bar where they allow smoking.

However, if you are in a movie theater, public library, hospital waiting room, train platform, elevator, or some other place where it is illegal to smoke, then I think it would be interesting to see the results of making a citizens arrest or filing a civilian criminal complaint.

Where I live there are many bars and restaurants that allow smoking. I'm sure that Carmona's press release will stop many establishments from smoking. Diehard smokers will go elsewhere. I don't smoke at home, and I work outdoors, so I hope my karma's still OK.

:smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke: And I had intent, so sue me.

:rofl:

being so mad at smokers?

I am an allergic non-smoker, but I don't get incensed over people smoking in public. if someone's smoke is bothering me, I will simply move. quite frankly, I think there are more important health issues to deal with, like the poisoning of our air, water and food.

:smoke:

have a drink!!

The wife doesn't, same bullshit about my smoking indignation, damn that stinks, scowl, then she fires up a stick of incense and then there ten times as much smoke in the area. I can breath tobacco but not that damn perfume!

First, I am going after those who start fires in their fire places. Every year on the first cold nights of the year, I am in agony. Then I'm going after briquette using BBQers. It's all fun and games until someone (i.e., me) can't breathe.

Then, I'm going after car owners. Not are they only befouling the air in my immediate vicinity and negatively impacting my health, but their persistant activity is killing the entire damn planet.

:smoke: :evilgrin: :smoke:

generators, too, while you are at it!!!!! And people who light CANDLES--the smoke from those things can kill ya!!!!!!!!!!

Next, mow down anyone who wears scent--be it aftershave or perfume. Let's sterilize the world, to benefit the few!!!!!

Shut down those coal fired plants too, before we find an alternative source of energy, screw the people who will freeze in winter.

AND you don't always get to choose what from.
BTW I don't smoke; I've never smoked, neither did my mother; and she died from 3 different kinds of cancer.
I don't like smokers, but it's supposed to be s free country, and I'd rather noone limited anyone's rights that much.
You have to draw the line somewhere.

IMHO; threads like this in an election year are a red herring. We have more important fish to fry. Ha.

:shrug: :smoke:

She was a non-smoker all her life, never lived with a smoker, parents never smoked, had courteous smoking friends (like me) who went out on her deck to smoke (using the ashtray she provided) she jogged, was a vegitarian, took vitamins, was a total fitness and health freak.

Dead of lung cancer at age 39.

Fuck it...


:smoke:

any other segments in the world. Guess what? They have a lower rate of lung cancer than those same like segments of the world. If they are heavier smokers, they 'should' have a much higher cancer rate. Why not?

I honestly don't know if they do or not, but that might be the difference. American tobacco companies add so many toxins to their tobacco to make it more addictive than it naturally is, and that also makes it much more lethal than the natural form. Evil mo fos.

"Smoking related-diseases kill one in 10 adults globally, or cause four million deaths"

"It's estimated that about one in eight deaths is due to smoking (in Japan)"
"Lung cancer is the leading cancer, with more than 50,000 deaths a year (in Japan)."

Maybe Japan's not the best example to prove your point.

http://www.wpro.who.int/media_centre/fact_sheets/fs_20020528.htm

who's dad was the athletic director at princeton u. whole family non smokers..she was a teacher..seems one of the schools she taught at had aspestos years ago..

she was the classic health nut..as was her whole family

so if someone wants to go after anyone..please feel free to fight this administration that just helped haliburton get away with murder over aspestos!!

fly

MOst people who die of lung cancer were smokers. And, they almost always have secondary illnesses/diseases: emphysema, heart disease, etc.

I always wonder about people who come into a thread only to tell other people they shouldn't be participating in it.

Or, how about people who grow plants that spur asthma attacks?

with a :smoke:

wow - try not going into bars where people smoke. This doesn't force you to be a hermit! There are plenty of non-smoking establishments. As someone else mentioned - people also have perfume allergies. Certain perfumes can give one a terrible headache, breathing problems, nausea - so what should one do? Sue someone for wearing too much perfume or simply remove themselves from the situation?

There're no allgergens in ETS. :shrug: Find an allergist who graduated from a real medical school. :eyes:

smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke:

I read an article in the waiting room of my doctor's office(of all places)that said one can't be allergic to smoke. The author equated the effect to one sniffing pepper and sneezing as a result.

:shrug:

That make allergies worse. THAT is what is meant when people -- and doctors -- say people are allergic to cigarette smoke. It greatly aggravates their allergies, or their asthma. That's what many REAL allergists have told me... and what every REAL medical source will also say. Playing semantics doesn't mean the core statement isn't true. When I smoked, I petty much had no real respiratory "life." Now, cigarette smoke has an adverse effect on me... and my sister, who is a nurse, and also says she's allergic to cigarette smoke, because it's easier than saying "Cigarette smoke contains toxic chemicals and irritants that make my allergies worse." Being a toxic chemical or irritant does not lessen the effect upon someone "allergic" to cigarette smoke, or mean the effects aren't real. Although apparently some posters on here think it does.

Although I understand the OP's point, and have empathy for it, I don't think people should charge smokers in a bar with assault.

and he says that people who smoke 10 cigs a day or less show no different lung damage than a non smoker. So how in the hell is second hand smoke that detrimental?

Next thing, they'll try to say that all the studies done on Global Warming weren't just made up by a hack. I mean, scientists have done research that secondhand smoke is dangerous, causes lung cancer, and causes asthma is children, but those studies must've been done by kooks who didn't know what they were talking about.:crazy:

Like global warming, etc. Sorry, you're right -- I've seen the light!!!

The studies conducted by NIH and CDC in the mid-90's (i was on the peer review committee for the publication of those studies, reviewing the math and statistics used in the conclusions) are completely at odds with the study just released.

In the 90's study, there was no causative link identified for cancer, heart disease, or the fomentation of any significant respiratory maladies from 2nd hand smoke. The study released on Tuesday had contradictory conclusions, but of course, i haven't seen the dataset upon which those conclusions were based.

So, it's not a matter of scientists being kooks, or proof of 2nd hand smoke's dangers. It's a matter of science being imperfect and fully credentialed and validly respected practitioners disagreeing about theories.
The Professor

... not only economics and politics, but science as well. (I'll try to be careful how I say this but, unless I were to go through successive drafts, revisions, and reviews, more than mere edits to correct typos and misspellings, I'm sure to express it clumsily.)

I'm not at all convinced that everything can be treated as impacting every human being in the same direction or manner. (We pretty well know it's not the same degree.) While this "Newtonian" approximation might have served us, in net, for many, many years, I think it's evident that there are major differences in the ways in which each human being is affected by certain substances, and these differences are totally and completely eradicated when the statistical myth of the "average person" is employed in today's science-based public policies and discussions.

These differences pose a very serious ethical conundrum in adapting public discourse to that reality in an ethical and just way, coming far too close to the age-old evils of racism, eugenics, and bigotry that lurk, ready to pounce, on any opportunity to necrotize social compassion, amity, and justice. Where, we must ask, is the line to be drawn between a society infringing upon the freedoms of multitudes instead of expecting the unfortunately susceptible to take reasonable steps on their own to compensate for their own susceptibility? After all, don't we expect those of use (including me) with bad eyesight to wear glasses? How large must we draw all signage? What size printing do we criminalize? I have yet to see a single person wearing an air-filtration mask in public. Not one. (I hear it's different in Japan.) The hyper-reactive Kaped Krusaders out to self-importantly stamp out all Evil, no matter how small and no matter who's harmed, are no better, imho. Between the two extremes, often indistinguishable from one another, there's not much room for reason and contemplation.

The majority of the most reputable and reliable studies indicate that there is a strong, but nowhere near total, correlation between the amount of smoking/drinking and the degree to which many (but nowhere near all) people are afflicted with associated maladies (lung cancer, cardiovascular disease, liver damage, brain damage). We think "more smoking means greater harm" because we reduce the mass population to the particular: one individual, slightly more female than male. To the degree there's some considerable amount of truth in the idea that more smoking means greater harm, there's a similar degree of completely contrary logic in the claim that tobacco smoke that's at least 100 times attenuated and dispersed poses some material risk. If that were so, the logic of proportionality (which infuses statistical analyses) forces us to conclude, then anyone who 'mainstreams' pack after pack, day after day, is sure to be quickly felled, just like a pine tree attacked by Paul Bunyan. After all, aren't we also certain that small (or 'moderate') amounts of alcoholic beverages are actually 'good' for us while far greater amounts inevitably result in cirrhosis, encephalopathy, and Korsakoff/Wernicke syndrome, including the permanent state of being a "falling down (former) drunkard." (I have direct, personal experience with the latter - and one far from being called a 'drunkard' by anyone. My mother.)

How are we, oh woe is us, to resolve the "a little is good" with "a little is bad" conflict? After all, if we're to accept the Sidestream Breathers of Truth proclamation that ETS is akin to sarin gas (or Agent Orange, my once-upon-a-time additive for swimming, showering, and bathing), then how can we drink to that (in a healthy way, of course)?

We seem trapped in the melodramatic paradigm of villain/victim/rescuer ... and it just does not serve us well. From my point of view, the "rescuers" are often identical to the "villains" and the victims are rarely themselves on stage.


Fuck the melodrama actors! The cartoonish, self-important posturing and lying is despicable.

I'm not arguing with you about this: cigarettes are bad for you and those who live in a smoking environment. This something you can't argue -- the facts back it up.

It is 2006, right? You do know when the news came out about cigarettes being bad, right?

Geez.

Regular exposure to second hand smoke increases risks of various illnesses (cancer, I think emphysema, and possibly others) somewhat; smoking ten a day will increase them considerably.

I suspect that your friend is guilty of placing to much weight on personal experience and not enough on statistical evidence.

Possibly what he meant was "I have seen people who smoked ten a day who's lungs were no worse than those of many non-smokers", which is undoubtedly true. However, it is not true that smoking ten a day will not *on average* lead to worse lungs than not smoking.

... aka a rationalization of a lie. :shrug: Funny how zealotry necessitates such contrived rationalizations.

but I think you're way off the mark here.

Here's what happens when I'm in an enclosed space with someone who is smoking: within five minutes my throat gets scratchy and I get post-nasal drip. Within ten minutes, I'm congested and start to get a sinus headache. Within twenty minutes I lose my voice and my eyes dry out. Later that day, if the exposure was prolonged enough, my eczema flairs up and I get hives. Strangely enough, these are the exact same symptoms I get when I'm exposed to dust and pet dander, which my last allergy tests confirmed as triggers.

I'm not an anti-smoking zealot. I honestly don't care if people smoke or not. As long as they don't blow the smoke in my face, it's none of my damn business. But I do have a severe physiological reaction to second-hand smoke (whether you want to call it an allergy or not)and to dismiss it as a contrived rationalization is absurd. When I first moved to a "smoke-friendly" country about three years ago, I would wake up every morning and cough for thirty solid minutes until my chin and the front of my shirt were soaked in phlegm. I've been low-grade congested for three solid years. I've adjusted somewhat (so that I don't cough until my chest is sore every day) but I still feel like hell most of the time.

I respect the right of people to smoke, but I would ask for a certain amount of understanding that the byproducts can be a serious irritant for other people (and not just hysterics).

to hide behind the weak rationalization that its ok to smoke around others because technicality they aren't allergic to cigarette smoke, even though it causes all the same problems as if they were.

I mean really, why should someone give a shit that they just gave the person next to them a runny nose, itchy eyes, sneezes, irritated throat and an asthma attack because after all no one is technically allergic to cigarette smoke? I guess the real-world effects don't matter.

with all the horrible crimes going on, for you to add to the public's burden of things to worry about by invoking tobacco smoke and pushing iraq, global warming, the corrupt media, a criminal regime in washington, growing ignorance of the mob etc, to the background...what this does is empowers the enemy, our common enemy. by creating the illusion that protestors are just whiners who'd whine about something else if, say, the bush admin was impeached, or if carbon taxes were instituted ....

:smoke:

Good grief! Why are people so sue-happy.

smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke:

Bring your whining to court and spin the big wheel... maybe you'll get lucky;)


:smoke:

"Waaah! I can't harm other people with my addiction by smoking in public! Bars will go out of business! Waaah!"

The only whining I'm hearing is from non-smokers.

The bars in California have been non-smoking for years, and they are still in business.

:shrug:

No one wants to harm another and if they do, then it just goes to show how they can be just as rude as non-smokers.

smokers accept that we're the new lepers and we know that in most places we can't smoker anymore. However when a PRIVATE establishment allows me to smoke I will, if you don't like it take it up with the owners, who will no doubt say "I'm not forcing you to drink here"

From July next year smoking will be banned in all pubs here and from then on I accept that even if the owner would prefer to allow it, I can't have a smoke and a drink.

Since when is going to a bar neccesary anyway?

:smoke:

:grr:

then yes.
CAFE standards are there for a reason.

Have to do with this thread. Fuel economy and smoking? Gotta see the linkage you are attempting here. :crazy:

People are saying we can't make laws against cigarette smoke because car pollution causes some of the same problems and there's no law against that! Its a kind of knee-jerk Rush Limbaugh argument that isn't thought through.

But, there is a law against it. There's a reason the government passes laws about containments in fuels, like lead at one time, and why there are laws (however weak) to make cars get better MPG, so that less people are negatively impacted by pollution from auto exhaust. So, if we can regulate emissions from cars, we can regulate emissions from smokers.

But I don't see it as successful. CAFE standards are not in place for pollutant reasons. They are in place for mileage. Pure and simple. To insinuate that they help with pollutant levels in disingenuous.

And, he died to an allergy to fascist bullets, not smoke.

smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke:

}(

Unless you wanna' outlaw drinking, too.

smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke: :beer:

you might trigger the spam bot. It doesn't irritate me that you're spamming my thread, but it does make you look childish, fyi.

And I thought I was being rather clever. Guess you got my point. It's supposed to be a free fucking country, with emphasis on supposed to be. But the RW Surgeon General has apparently given you some work space, but it's not smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke: free.

I should be able to go out in public without my right to breath freely being taken away. I don't know why you think spamming is clever but I doubt anyone else does.

:eyes:
I've heard more than enough whining from smokers who don't want a public smoking ban. Its the biggest bunch of cry-babies I've ever heard.

Do you issue moral citations to all the car owners idling away whilst you walk?

smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke::smoke: :smoke:

giving them the death penalty, preferably by slow torture.

Sheesh!
The Professor

so I will have to content myself with wishing you no less than what I went through when my father died.

Since when is 'progressive' equated with "hot-blooded, angry revenge"??

May the Bluebird of Happiness build a nest in your ribcage. :silly:

Watching a loved one or friend slowly die from wasting disease is utterly painful, and your have my deepest sympathies. What an ordeal for your poor father, and for those who sat by his side, helpless, at the end.

I am also sorry you're getting beat up in here for "daring" to say so. I am kinda shocked that you are getting mocked here because of your strong feelings about the role cigarettes played in your father's death. There seems to be deeper feeling for libertarianism and the science that proves cigareetes are not as harmful as many allege, and who have anecdotes about how some cigarette smokers avoid lung disease and who aver that cigerette smoking is no more dangerous than falling out of bed etc, than there is for the loss of a human being to serious illness. Go figure. I can't believe that people, whatever their political opinions are, don't have the decency and compassion to recognize your loss.

My mother in law slowly died from emphysema. She had 1.5 lungs, and still was so addicted that she couldn't stop. She even smoked in the hospital when she was ordered there during bouts of pneumonia. It was my first encounter with someone truly and hopelessly addicted, and it was tragic.

I wrote Lawton Chiles (former Gov of Fl and an anti-smoking activist) a letter about how, as I wheeled her into the hospice where she eventually died, that she was smoking in her wheelchair, flicking her ashes in a portable ashtray with "Smokers' Rights 1-800-555-5555" silk-screened onto it. He was similarly struck by the tragic absurdity of this scene, and sent me a touching letter back.

I guess I was too overwhelmed by her terrible illness to applaud her "choice."

The executives who push death-by-addiction murdered many people near and dear to me, too.

I'd also like to see them receive the death penalty -- as slow and painful as the MILLIONS of deaths they inflicted through their lies and deceit in pursuit of PROFITS!!

Or are you a cat or a dog lover? I have a deathly allergy to dog hair or sometimes cat hair. And if you have a guinea pig or white rats in my vicinity, you might as well call 911 because I'm dropping over dead with these allergens.

And you better not EVEN have a peanut shell laying around near me. Because I WILL CALL MY LAWYER BEFORE I DIE.

Same 'logic' ... without the l*e about being "allergic" to tobacco smoke. :shrug: