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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:35 AM
Original message
We have become a Nazi monster...
We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the
whole world--a nation of bullies and bastards who
would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not
just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with
hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and
that is how history will judge us...No redeeming
social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or
we'll kill you.

Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who
among us can be happy and proud of having this
innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine?
These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and
fooled by stupid rich kids like George Bush?
They are the same ones who wanted to have Muhammad Ali
locked up for refusing to kill gooks. They speak for
all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the
American character. They are the racists and hate
mongers among us--they are the Ku Klux Klan. I piss
down the throats of these Nazis.

And I am too old to worry about whether they like it
or not. Fuck them.

-Hunter S. Thompson
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. I agree.
But do you have a link?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Here ...
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 01:17 AM by TahitiNut
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4morewars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. RIP Doctor Gonzo !
Nobody called it like he did.

:toast:
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. He's described most of my co-workers to a tee.
And yes, I do spend a LOT of time on monster.com these days....
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wake.up.america Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Pretty sad. I have so many friends in America who are slowly...
deteriorating.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
76. I spend some time listening to early 70's music...
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 02:55 AM by Jeffersons Ghost
Once the religious, the hunted and weary
Chasing the promise of freedom and hope
Came to this country to build a new vision
Far from the reaches of kingdom and pope
Like good Christians, some would burn the witches
Later some got slaves to gather riches

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

And once the ties with the crown had been broken
Westward in saddle and wagon it went
And 'til the railroad linked ocean to ocean
Many the lives which had come to an end
While we bullied, stole and bought our a homeland
We began the slaughter of the red man

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

The blue and grey they stomped it
They kicked it just like a dog
And when the war over
They stuffed it just like a hog

And though the past has it's share of injustice
Kind was the spirit in many a way
But it's protectors and friends have been sleeping
Now it's a monster and will not obey

(Suicide)
The spirit was freedom and justice
And it's keepers seem generous and kind
It's leaders were supposed to serve the country
But now they won't pay it no mind
'Cause the people grew fat and got lazy
And now their vote is a meaningless joke
They babble about law and order
But it's all just an echo of what they've been told
Yeah, there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watchin'

Our cities have turned into jungles
And corruption is stranglin' the land
The police force is watching the people
And the people just can't understand
We don't know how to mind our own business
'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us
Now we are fighting a war over there
No matter who's the winner
We can't pay the cost
'Cause there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watching

(America)
America where are you now?
Don't you care about your sons and daughters?
Don't you know we need you now
We can't fight alone against the monster

© Copyright MCA Music (BMI)
All rights for the USA controlled and administered by
MCA Corporation of America, INC
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
5. Even Rome fell
Empires rise and fall, I've come to accept we are no different.

Perhaps the rebirth of America after it lands flat on it's face (and she's there on the ground floundering)will wake up and take notice. Or maybe we are too distracted by shiny things? Stuff that burns and can be stolen, ruined, items that are perishable. Are we so distracted that we no longer notice every day we loose a family (or 10) to poverty?

This society was doomed to fail because it's too far gone with materialism to sustain itself.

Sad but the dream that was America, seemingly got lost and outsourced along the way.
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CrazyOrangeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
6. Absolutely brilliant . . .
Thanks for posting
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
8. Very good rant, I love it! You are right on.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. I started reading that thinking, "Who is this guy who has the guts to
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 01:35 AM by petgoat
tell it like it is?"

And then I got to the bottom and saw why we see this righteous
vintage so rarely.

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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. LOL I posted this same thing last week! It's GREAT!
Thanks for spreading it around some more!
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. Bullshit
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 03:42 AM by melody
Okay, here I get myself in major trouble, I'm sure, but as much as I respect Hunter Thompson (and I think this was probably a dark night of the soul rant prior to his "suicide"), we aren't one bit better or worse than any other nation on this planet. If we're so backward and dark-aged, why did BushCo need Diebold? Why couldn't they unseat Clinton? Why did the majority of Americans rise to Clinton's defense and then turn around and elect Al Gore only to have him unseated with wingnut Supreme Court whores? Why did they have to Diebold John Kerry to make George "win" again in the eyes of the world?

This is a European problem -- all European countries, and I include all the North American countries in the pack. George Bush represents nothing more than an on-going battle between one side of the wealthy European world and the other side. Think of all the lucky things that followed in line: the emergence of the EU (long before Bush) with reams of anti-American/pro-European verbiage being cranked out from all factions there including the press and the arts ("Chess" anyone?), resulting in what amounts to a first strike on us prior to the very handy ascent-to-power of George Bush, just in the nick of time. This has been a long process, unfolding since Reagan took over, with his chummy family pictures with the Queen. And now, after a brief interim with Clinton, we're being "punished" for our recent wayward ways with a double-dose of Bush.

Suddenly, EU and Canada are establishing all these visionary, progressive laws and the US is being dragged backward by a President we didn't elect and a decided minority of his "base". Why, isn't that just handy as hell? And then of course there's September 11th, about which I always ask the old legal question, For whom was it good? Who stood to benefit? Certainly wasn't the poor Arabs. Certainly wasn't your average American or European. No, it was the rich people of Europe, including our own.

They're trying to sink our little democracy once and for all, my friends. No one says this stuff for fear of being called a "conspiracy theorist" (gawd forbid we actually see the patterns of their criminal enterprises). Then they'll blot out every bit of it in Europe, too. We'll all be slinging burgers at Big Brother's Bar and Grill.

It's not just the US -- it's not just Europe -- it's the whole criminal pack of them, and they stretch across the world.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I think Thompson is right...to a certain degree, not whole though
A nation's leaders are often viewed, whether we like it or not, as a reflection of his consituents, us. In defense of the US though, Bush's constituents--I would argue--are those who hold power over many, own everything in this country, and are driven by greed more than anything else. They are a minority, but quite a few people did vote for Bush; this is true if we look at who is happy with Bush, and a damn near half of us were, at least back on Nov. 2nd. I'd say at least 45 to 50 percent went in favor of him. The next few percentage points can be fought over with respect to them being won fairly or through fraud.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Are those people in favor of Bush?
Or are those people backing their own leader against a frowning world? The simple fact of the matter is Clinton is far more popular now than Bush will be following his own happy expulsion from office. What we say about each other to each other is one thing, as I think any American can attest, but what we say about each other to people from outside the culture, is another thing entirely.

That said, the majority of us did NOT vote for Bush in either case. His actual voter base was about 25%. Anyway, sheer numbers underscore that there are nearly as many Bush backers in Europe as a while as there are in the US (no, I'm not joking).

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
69. Where does Clinton fit into this?
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 09:42 PM by Selatius
You're asking questions with no real answers. The simple fact is a good enough number of voters voted for Bush such that it made it easy to fool with the results of the election. I know that for sure. Of the polls I've seen, it appears to me they voted on the "moral values" card in plurality as opposed to anything you could be implying here.

Sure, I'll buy the notion some number--repeat, "some number"--voted for Bush out of spite for our European neighbors across the pond, but I'd levy a response that some number of people voted for Kerry just to spite Bush's seeming arrogance and excessive pride in public as well, nevermind the "Anybody But Bush" movement of which they were apart.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. perception
is what he's talking about. He's saying that the average person in Europe sees us this way:

"We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the
whole world
"

He's also saying That it's only ceratin people that make it so. Sure it's dark, cynical and rife with criticism, but that's HST. I agree that while Europeans often think poorer of Americans than is warranted, we also as Americans tend to think too highly of European Gov'ts. Yes they do stratch across the world, but i see this quote as a rallying cry. It makes me angry... wanting to change the perception.

Anyway, i don't think Hunter was trying to say that we all are better or worse than others, just that some of us are... the ones in power.


...little bathroom sticker...
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. as I said
Since Hunter benefited from the system greater than the majority of Americans, one wonders why he had so many problems slumming with the whores.

Sorry, I like Hunter -- and this is obviously a highly subjective rant (as mine was) -- but it's unfair, imho, especially when he's talking about people who had no choice in the matter, unlike (ahem) the good Doctor himself.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. If you like Hunter why are you smearing him?
I guess we can only value the words of ascetics? Anyone who makes money cant be listened to?
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
88. Your argument is illogical:
Hunter prided himself on hanging with the "lowlifes."
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. It is almost egocentric
to think that we're the biggest, baddest most hateful SOB out there.

I agree with you. We are no worse or better than any other civilization.

The author is wallowing.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Well said n/t
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Perhaps, but
I think no matter how you look at it the US has more military power than any other nation.
For the time being 'the US' has 'nations' all over the world scared - not the other way around.

I think that does count a bit toward the US being the biggest, baddest most hateful SOB out there.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. Correct
I think no matter how you look at it the US has more military power than any other nation.
For the time being 'the US' has 'nations' all over the world scared - not the other way around.

I think that does count a bit toward the US being the biggest, baddest most hateful SOB out there

----------------
and for those who disagree with Hunter, who else has used the atomic bomb on citizens of this planet??
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AndyS40 Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
70. I tend to think the problems of America vis-a-vis the rest of the world
are systemic, at least in terms of the present.

People don't just emerge from seed pods as right wingers who would vote for someone like Bush, or support him to the exclusion of looking into any wrong doing. On the contrary I think there's been a deliberate and systematic distortion of education, reality as-it-exists-on-the-ground, religion, the humanities, even the rhythms of daily life for decades (if not centuries) with the expressly desired qualities we now see in the most determinedly blind and hostile of our populace. We have become a nation of little picture people, and this has been the intention for a long long time.

Like Saruman said in the movie: "They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life, now perfected". That is really how I see neocons, sorry ;) But to anyone really paying attention, it is the "dark powers" we must look to, and the darkness gathers under pretentions of nationalistic glory and power, whatever the supposed differentiation between such powers and "bad guys" of yore.

The main question is, would any pretender to world power do less? The thirst for power and perceived dominance of a superpower, along with a desire to retain such power, makes such acts possible, eventually - and eventually is "now" under Bush II. It makes justifying such acts tolerable to some. If China aspires to become like we have been up to now, they would and will do the same thing within their own cultural context.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
72. If you mean that Bush is no worse than Hitler, I agree.
But I think that was what the author said. Not wallowing. Hitler was pretty screwed up! So is Bush.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. There are major differences between us and the rest of the world
1. We are the only nation that has ever used atomic weapons, and we used them
on civilian populations

2. We spend as much on the military as the entire rest of the world combined
(when you include military items that are left out of the DoD budget like
the military aspects of the Atomic Energy Commission and vets' benefits).

3. The regime in power has made its goal of global domination quite clear in
the "Statement of Principles" of the "Project for a New American Century".

The Good Doctor knew whereof he spake.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I disagree
1) We were the only nation with atomic weapons in the position to use them at the time. First used, it changed the entire psychological dynamic toward them.

2) We're very much in the tradition of our mother country in this. We're also the only country financially and technologically rich enough to do so to this degree, so once again the sampling is distorted. Alpha Primates seek weapons. The top Alpha will have the most weapons. C'est la vie.

3) That's the government, put in place by Diebold and the New European Century/New American Century people. They're a bunch of brown-shirts in boy scout attire. They are NOT the country.

The Doctor spewed forth a temper tantrum. Since he benefited economically to a greater degree than most Americans, one can only ask him Thoreau's challenge to Emerson, "What are you doing on that side of the bars, Ralph?"
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Your argument only proves HST's point
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 02:54 PM by petgoat
1. You act as apologist for one of the greatest wartime atrocities in history

2. You defend aggressive militarism as simply human nature

3. You exempt the citizens of the foremost democracy in the world from responsibility
for the actions of their government.

Your arguments act not to distinguish America from Nazi Germany but only underscore the
parallels, because you could just as well apply them to Germany:

"Atrocties? Well, things got a but out of hand. Blitzkrieg? Well, boys will be boys.
Bad Government? Well, the peace-loving Good Germans don't really go along with this
invasion stuff."

And then you call HST a hypocrite, and seem to be saying that because he was successful
he should have sided with the rich and complacent? Some people get rich through exploiting
other people's labor, but it seems to me that a writer (whose wealth derives from his own
labor alone) deserves every penny he earns. Or are you saying his words could only be credibile
if he were a ranter in rags on the sidewalk of Denver?

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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. You're the one trying to prove something
Sorry, but you're repeating invective you've clearly learned by rote. I hear it from freepers and I hear it from my left friends: either USA = good, Europe = bad or the reverse. Neither is the case. We're all in this together.

I'm not an "apologist" for anything. I'm arguing for reasoned compassion before knee-jerk hatred.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I apologize for my tone in the earlier post
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 03:02 PM by petgoat
I'm afraid my internet manners come from dog-fight debates with
freepers on more open forums.

Actually, I thought I'd invented my invective myself, and the
fact that it's all based point by point on your post bears
that out.

No one can disagree with "arguing for reasoned compassion before
knee-jerk hatred," except to note that perhaps the Bush regime is
sufficiently dangerous and harmful as to earn "hatred", and certainly
it's earned contempt.

Certainly I would not argue for hanging Bush upside down from a lamp-post,
though I would argue that his place is in The Hague.




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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. We're not discussing Bush - I think Bush should be in prison
Bush is not America. Bush was as forced upon Americans as he has been forced on the rest of the world.

We really need to be very careful of creating international scapegoats. The world did it with Jews and innocent Germans during WWII. The problem is in and with all of us.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Both US and EU (and the rest) are bad, but
as of yet 'the US' is the baddest of them all.
Behind the curtains there is no US, no EU and no rest of them - but on the public global stage there is. And there the US is the mightiest. What the US does, goes - the US leads.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Not true
It's not the US - it's a trans-national phenomenon. It simply is. Americans are NOT Bush's countrymen. His compatriots are Blair, Howard, Chirac, etc, etc.

IMHO, if believe the US is the baddest of the bad, you make the same logical mistake as those who would blame all this country's problems on liberals. You're choosing a comfortable scapegoat that doesn't include you. This is OUR problem; there is no "they".
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. IMHO
i was waiting for someone to say OPINION, because that's what all this rhetoric is. Im sorry Melody, but if this is your HO, why do you keep trying to point out where other people are wrong? Isn't it HST's opinion that he's expressing, and don't these other posters have a right to their opinion without being told they're wrong? As for my 2 cents, IMHO the US is the biggest, baddest around. I know plenty of good people and i'm not saying Americans suck.... just that the biggest, baddest thing is the generally accepted worldwide. Besides, why get all uptight? HST is a fiction writer... might be worth it if this was a quote from some head of state or something... anyway, no offense.
Peace out.



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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I'm not uptight - I'm just expressing MY opinion
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 05:46 PM by melody
Does everyone who agrees with you get an opinion, but I don't?

I've "shown my work" where I think this is correct. I'm just seeking that from others, too. If you can show logically how this is the case, then you should be prepared and open to logical challenges.

I'm just offering mine. I'm not saying no one else can offer their own.

And once again, I point to anthropology as proof. We're all Alpha primates. The ones with the most weapons "wins", but that doesn't mean the others aren't vying for weapons also.
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
90. What other country has dropped atomic bombs?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. you are right, it's an old story
but today we are the empire acting in our own brutal self interest which threatens not only the rest of the world but us here at home and that must be stopped by all concerned beings on the planet.

the EU is not trying to 'sink our little democracy' the neoCONs are. don't delude yourself by buying into the rw anti UN/EU meme it only serves to distract you from the real business here at home, defeating the neoCONs.

peace

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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. I'm not buying into any meme
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 04:46 PM by melody
>don't delude yourself by buying into the rw anti UN/EU meme

I'm not. I'm merely speaking from 25 years of political research - no memes involved, from any side. I am greatly in favor of a fair and equitable UN. I am greatly in favor of Europe and the EU. Nearly all my ancestors (except for the Cherokee ones) came from Great Britain. I'm not in favor of the extremist EU driving the democratic (non-extremist) concept of the US out of existence, which is the stated aim of Bush's friends and colleagues. The White Mega-Wealthy want to divide and conquer once and for all. They've been trying to do this in one form or another since the Civil War. Now they've just gone high tech.

Don't delude yourself into thinking that the UN and the EU are solely benevolent entities without their own negative aspects every bit as bad as the ones in the US. You merely serve the needs of the people who would like the illusion of the "bad guys" destroyed with the US when all they will do is move.

For a real view of the matter, I'd look at the number of pro-Bush people in Europe versus the number of Bush supporters in the US. The US is much more analogous to Europe than it is to a single nation state. It will be a bit of a wake-up call.



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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. extremist EU driving the democratic (non-extremist) concept of the US out
extremist EU driving the democratic (non-extremist) concept of the US out of existence,

when they become a bigger threat than the current one in the WH then we can worry about it.

as long as the neoCONs are in power more and more people around the world will hate us... once we get rid of them the angry american haters will go back to being a minority.

peace
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. NeoCons = extremist EU and extremist US
They're all the same people.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
34. Nothing you said disagrees with Thompson, so why the 'bullshit'? EOM
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 03:09 PM by K-W
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
65. Um...Who are "they?"
I'm curious, because you didn't say. Or if you did, I missed it.

Redstone
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. The "They" of them
I always refer to the PNAC/PNEU/Carlyle/NeoCon fascists as the ubiquitous "They". I should have made that clearer, however.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Oh, those guys. I think you're right, then.
You don't have to be a black-helicopter conspiracy-theorist crackpot to see their hand at work.

May I be among the first to wish you an early Happy New Year?

Redstone
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. I heard that during Vietnam, when the soldiers were ordered to fire
at women, children and old men, that the white soldiers shot to kill, and blacks and hispanics aimed high.
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Raydawg1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. I suppose you were there and saw it for yourself?
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
52. I read it on DU.
On one of the racist threads. Thanks.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
50. dupe
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 05:00 PM by TallahasseeGrannie
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
51. of course they did
because white men are mindless, useless thugs who have never brought anything to the world, while their darker brothers are gentle, moderate thinkers who would never harm another.

What utter bullshit. Talk about urban legend!
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Sorry TG. But I read this on DU.
And the reason I would believe it is because it's easier for whites to demonize dark skinned people. Hopefully someone who read it on DU too, has the archive.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I don't dispute that in an isolated incident this could happen
but for someone to paint it as a pattern is racism, pure and simple.

Men kill. Period. Yellow, red, white, black.

I have read it put forth that white men, because of evolving in an environment that required a lot of technology, developed weapons earlier than other races. But when it comes to the SPIRIT to use them, I sure don't see any differences in the races.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. I wouldn't be so arrogant to say that this is a genetic trait.
I believe it's cultural. And, yes, I do believe that in Vietnam this could have easily happened. Which was my original point.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
77. as a Vietnam Era Veteran....
I take exception to that remark! I think you're nothing more than a freeper spy liar! At the VA Hospital, back when I was there, one vet, would cover his ears and run when my kids and wife came to visit, because he couldn't stand to see children, after watching several explode because bombs were attached to their small bodies. War is ugly! If the presidential draft dodger had ever been in one, we would not be in this one.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. I understand Jefferson.
But killing every man, woman and child, is precisely the mentality we have today with some Americans in regards to Iraq. I just heard it from a good friend of mine just a few days ago. Is anything clicking yet for you? A little light bulb, perhaps?
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Let me clear this up
Back when I served, soldiers either followed orders or did not, with no regard to race or religion. In other words racially profiling ANY group, in ANY way constitutes racism. Whenever I see people lumping others in groups and then saying Afro-American and Hispanic Vietnam soldiers did not follow orders, while white soldiers were more blood-thirsty and DID follow orders that were morally wrong expect to see a backlash, Backlash.

Backlash, I'd say you owe ALL Vietnam Veterans a public apology.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Now you're going too far.
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 03:00 PM by The Backlash Cometh
I will keep an eye on your posts just to make sure you understand what's happening on this newsgroup. When we see something wrong with the system, we speak out. If you feel like defending something like the Mai Lai Massacre. Be my guest. You and Colin Powell have something in common.

There was a post made on DU that claimed that soldiers of color in the Vietnam War aimed high when orders were given to shoot unarmed civilians. This may have been one eye-witnessed case, but so be it. The white soldiers in the group didn't aim high. Given how everything else in our country is affected along racial lines, I don't know why you don't have the balls to face the truth. I respect the soldiers who did not shoot to kill, I also don't blame the soldiers who did; but I would expect the officer to have to answer for his order at some point. AND NO I WOULD NOT ALLOW THAT OFFICER TO GO WITHOUT REVIEW. IF he made the right choice, that would come out, and if he didn't, that would also be determined.

YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR EVERY VIETNAM VET, BUDDY. I happened to know that some of the most fiercest opponents of that war WERE VIETNAM VETS.

I suggest you go back to the beginning of this original post and ask yourself, how did we become a nation of Nazi's and then ask yourself if there is some personal reflection you should be making right about now.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Why....
Do you think ANYTHING you say will justify racial profiling? Repeating Racist remarks is as bad as posting them in the first place. I doubt very seriously if ANYONE will ever know where a single soldier in a company or squad aims during a fire-fight, except the soldier doing the aiming, so the remark is also a lie. I will defend not only ALL Vietnam Veterans but also ANY group from your type of profiling. You must decide if you're man or woman enough to apologize and admit you made a mistake.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. I did not make a mistake.
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 05:46 PM by The Backlash Cometh
If I read something on DU and recognize behavior that is plausible and choose to support that it could have occurred, then that is my perogative. That's called free speech. That's what American soldiers go to fight and defend.

I find it peculiar, however, that you refer to it as racial profiling. But so be it. In this case, I would call it human behavior, because as you so aptly pointed out, soldiers are trained to obey and if there's a possibility that some soldiers can see different things through their sights, it is probably something that the military is very well aware of. I, personally, would call it sociology. Not racial profiling.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #86
92. IF and....
When anyone ascribes behavioral characteristics to people, based on racial criteria, it's racial profiling in the purest form. We're all individuals and I believe there's not only good and bad traits in every race but also in each individual. I also tend to walk very softly when making comments about ANY group, except Republicans, of course. That's just me, do whatever makes you happy but remember that 4th grad civics lesson, when it comes to freedoms: Your freedom to swing your fist (or words) ends, right where your neighbors nose (or ear) begins.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Thank you for sharing your philosophy.
And that's what it is, a philosophy. I can't say that sociology is any better, but at least it tries to see the world as it is, not as it should be. And maybe you have to understand the first, before you can achieve the second.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
15. Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Diebold, that's who!
Until we get that, we are helpless.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
16. Damn, Gonzo. Tell us how you really feel.
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AverageJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
17. When the going get weird, the weird turn pro
HST got it pure, said it true. We were lucky to have him.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. "no redeeming social value"???
"human scum"????

That's how who will see us? The imperialistic Britains, Japanese? The Chinese? The Russians? The Germans? The French?

Ridiculous on the face of it.

"They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character ... They are ... hate mongers among us."

Someone who writes that Americans are "human scum with no redeeming social value" sounds like a hate monger to me. Calling somebody a Nazi is not hateful? (Yes, I know, if the shoe fits. My point is that the shoe does not fit, it is bombastic, hyperbolic vitriol.) "I pi$$ down (their) throats .... fu#$ them." No, that's not hateful rhetoric, trying to stir up hate against 40% or so of our fellow Americans. I find no redeeming social value in HST's rant.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. The "human scum" is the Bush regime and its supporters.
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 02:34 PM by petgoat
Right there when he says "They are the hate mongers among us" he is limiting the
targets of the charges. The shoe does fit. Harold Pinter has recently pointed
out that the Bush regime is more dangerous than the Nazis, because the Germans
were just one military power in a world that contained rival military powers
in Russia, Japan, the UK, France, Italy, and the USA. Now the USA alone rivals
the entire rest of the world.

Here's a news article about it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,975048,00.html

"The playwright said: "The US is really beyond reason now. It is beyond our imagining to know what they are going to do next and what they are prepared to do. There is only one comparison: Nazi Germany.

""Nazi Germany wanted total domination of Europe and they nearly did it. The US wants total domination of the world and is about to consolidate that.

""In a policy document, the US has used the term 'full-spectrum domination', that means control of land, sea, air and space, and that is exactly what's intended and what the US wants to fulfil. They are quite blatant about it."

"Pinter blamed "millions of totally deluded American people" for not staging a mass revolt."


Pinter has endorsed the WorldCantWait statement:

http://worldcantwait.net/
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. except that supporters of the BFEE
is about 40% of the American public or are you talking about more active supporters - Falwell, Robertson, Lieberman, etc?

It seems ridiculous to me to say we rival the rest of the world in military power. That is not even true for nukes. Our military is stretched as thin as tissue paper just taking on Iraq and we do not have the forces, and are certainly unwilling as a nation to commit to the forces, required to install a puppet government. 25 years ago I took a college/ROTC course in military history. One of the students asked "why didn't we just invade China and put Chiang kai-Shek (sp?) in power?" The instructor answered "we wouldn't be able to keep him in power."

It is disheartening that support for Bush is not in the teens where it belongs. I would like to see it go lower, but neither Pinter nor HST say anything that is going to help that, especially HST who concludes his two paragraphs of name-calling with, essentially, "fu$% anybody who does not agree with me"
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. The military budget clearly shows that we rival the rest of the world.
The fact that the US military is not omnipotent does not prove that it doesnt rival the rest of the world, of course we couldnt just take over China, nobody could, but we can do things no other nation can do, and no nation can challenge us militarily.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. we rival the rest of the world in military power.
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 04:17 PM by petgoat
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp#InContextUSMilitarySpendingVersusRestoftheWorld

The cdi link I've relied upon for this data in the past http://www.cdi.org/issues/usmi/ is not working.

The above link provides similar data:



"* The US military budget was almost as much as the rest of the world’s.
* The US military budget was more than 6 times larger than the Russian budget, the second largest spender.
* The US military budget was more than 30 times as large as the combined spending of the seven “rogue” states (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria) who spent $13 billion.
* It was more than the combined spending of the next fourteen nations.
* The United States and its close allies accounted for some two thirds to three-quarters of all military spending, depending on who you count as close allies (typically NATO countries, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan and South Korea)
* The seven potential “enemies,” Russia, and China together spent $134.2 billion, 34% of the U.S. military budget."


Pretty sobering stuff. Combine this with PNAC's aggressive posture and you have a plan for
global domination, pure and simple. Which suggests we are up against something very big, and
dangerous enough to have LIHOP or MIHOP.



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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
93. money is not everything
We spend more money per capita on health care than other EU countries, and yet we are not any healthier. We pay our soldiers far better than North Korea does and use more high tech, expensive equipment. If we wanted to take on North Korea, we might find that they far outnumber us. Same for the Chinese, of course, their soldiers probably get paid 25 cents an hour just like their factory workers.

Not only that, but our evil empire has spent decades paying for troops to be stationed in South Korea, not only defending South Korea from the North, but also providing a boost to their economy in the same way that Ellsworth AFB provides a boost to the Dakota economy. The same with the people we station in Deutschland to protect them from the Russians.

PNAC's aggressive posture is a serious threat, but it does not need to be over-stated. We cannot take on the whole world, especially since Bush and Republicans are, so far, politically unable to ask for Americans outside of the military, and their families,to make any sacrifices. Also, we have been dominating the world since WWII. We still have China and the EU to keep us from being an absolute power. The invasion of Iraq has shown the limits of our power as much as it has shown the ruthlessness of BFEE intent.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
39. So you find the truth 'rediculous'?
"no redeeming social value"???
"human scum"????


Out of context quotes, a good start.

That's how who will see us? The imperialistic Britains, Japanese? The Chinese? The Russians? The Germans? The French?

Had you read the post you were replying to you would notice that he was referring to the "whole world"

You would have also noticed that Hunter was making no claims about the comparitive riteosness of the people of any nation. He was pointing out that the US is judged by the world and by history by its actions and in the minds of the world and history Americans are implicated in those actions.

Meanwhile if you look at the way Americans and history judged the nations you mentioned when they were enganged in Imperial aggression, it will prove Hunter's point.

Someone who writes that Americans are "human scum with no redeeming social value" sounds like a hate monger to me.

Now you are just being dishonest. Hunter did not express that as his opinion, he was describing how Americans are percieved because of the actions of our government.

Calling somebody a Nazi is not hateful?

He didnt call anybody a Nazi, he said we are Nazi's in the eyes of the world.

Also, you seem to be quite confused. There is a major difference between hating something and being a hatemonger, all of us hate things, including Hunter S. Thompson. That does not make us hate mongers.

(Yes, I know, if the shoe fits. My point is that the shoe does not fit, it is bombastic, hyperbolic vitriol.)

Well then your point is just plain wrong. The shoe does fit. The US is looked upon as a monster because it does in fact do monstrous things. In that sense it is like other regimes in history. You want to harp on an equivelence between the Nazis and the US that Hunter never made. We are all reasonably educated people here, we know the difference between the Nazis and the US. We can use thet two words in the same paragraph without conflating them.

"I pi$$ down (their) throats .... fu#$ them." No, that's not hateful rhetoric, trying to stir up hate against 40% or so of our fellow Americans.

You need to be stirred to hate racists and warmongers?



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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. harping?
No I am more of a piano player, but what is a piano if not a boxed harp that is struck with hammers?

"You want to harp on an equivelence between the Nazis and the US that Hunter never made."

So when he concluded a paragraph about Bush voters with "I pi$$ down the throat of these Nazis" he was not calling almost half of America Nazis?

"Out of context quotes"???

Well, fortunately the context was there for everyone to read. WTF was I supposed to do, repeat the OP?

"Had you read the post you were replying to" Very nice cheap shot, and I do not believe you missed the point I was trying to make, even if you do not believe it has any validity, that the rest of the world is not in the position of not having a glass house from which to throw stones. (Dang that was awkward phraseology. especially considering what I am going to say next.)

I was not being dishonest. Hunter is supposed to be a writer, but he did not express himself very clearly. If he did not want to say that we are human scum, (or that Republican Americans are) he should have used the intro phrase "They see us ..." Without that, or quotes, it is not clear if he is talking about how they are thinking or how he is thinking.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
62. Context Matters
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 09:19 PM by K-W
So when he concluded a paragraph about Bush voters with "I pi$$ down the throat of these Nazis" he was not calling almost half of America Nazis?

Except that he wasnt referring to all Bush voters.

"They are the racists and hate
mongers among us--they are the Ku Klux Klan. I piss
down the throats of these Nazis."

He is referring to some Bush voters. He isnt saying that all Bush voters are racists.

Although you are correct in that he did call some people Nazi's the second time he used the word, but since he was referring to white supremecists, I dont really see your objection.

Well, fortunately the context was there for everyone to read. WTF was I supposed to do, repeat the OP?

You obviously felt the need to repeat the quotes, why not the context?

and I do not believe you missed the point I was trying to make, even if you do not believe it has any validity, that the rest of the world is not in the position of not having a glass house from which to throw stones. (Dang that was awkward phraseology. especially considering what I am going to say next.)

Right, i totally get this point, unfortunately this point has nothing whatsoever to do with what Hunter S. Thompson wrote. At no point in that piece does he claim riteousness for anyone else in the world. This is a straw man argument on your part.

And it is a rather lame defense of the US to try to turn attention to other countries.

Hunter is supposed to be a writer, but he did not express himself very clearly.

I had no trouble whatsoever understanding him.

If he did not want to say that we are human scum, (or that Republican Americans are) he should have used the intro phrase "They see us ..." Without that, or quotes, it is not clear if he is talking about how they are thinking or how he is thinking.

HE DID

"in the eyes of the whole world"

He did very clearly state in the first part of the piece that he was talking about how they are thinking.


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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #62
94. you say that he was referring to white supremacists
Yet the context that I see begins with "Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having this
innocent blood on our hands?"

That is a larger group than white supremacists. Sad, but true.

"He did very clearly state in the first part of the piece that he was talking about how they are thinking."

Crucial point is when he wrote "That is how history will judge us." He was saying that he agreed with how they are thinking. So it is irrelevant whether he is talking about how other people are thinking or how he is thinking. He agrees with "them".
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. Bigots will see us like that
HST was merely giving into his darker nature in this rant. He's one of us, so he certainly is welcome to his unreasoned rant, since he's attacking himself, too, but a lot of people in Europe see him as a hero and these are the very people who are the mirror twin of the freepers in this country.

If one takes this rant and replaces the word "Americans" with "Jews", it would sound like a speech from Hitler. This underscores the source of the emotion - bigotry (in this case, self-hatred). What makes racism wrong is its inherent ignorance. It simply is logically out of bounds. And what makes it wrong to generalize about all Jews, makes it wrong to generalize about all Americans. The anti-Semites who view Jews negatively do so for their own subjective reasons. Those who view all Americans negatively do so for their own subjective reasons. Neither is correct.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Your point on the negativity and uselessness of hate, is well
taken, but you must recognize that you are advising loving Nazis as well
as loving Nazi-like Bushcists.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. No, I'm not
We can act to stop the crime, yet understand the criminal is in all of us.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. "the criminal is in all of us."
Well now I'm confused, 'cause you seem to be saying "we are ALL Nazis"
and before you seemed to be saying "we are not what they were."

All I can say is I'm doing my damndest not to be a Good German,'cause
IMHO there's no real difference between us and them. They were just
pushed harder by a humiliating peace settlement of WWI, unbelievable
inflation that wiped out all savings, and then the Depression.




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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I'm saying the capacity to do this is in all of us
I do try hard to be a "good" American - I recycle, I am ecologically aware, I'm vegetarian, I vote liberal, etc. However, I think we all have to be aware that we're all capable of doing monstrous things.

We're primates. Alpha primates act in very predictable ways, no matter their country of origin. lol
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #58
96. We are NOT all all capable of doing monstrous things!
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 10:53 PM by TankLV
I would sooner kill myself than being forced to do any such thing.

Maybe YOU, but you cannot speak for ME!

That is BULLSHIT statement and argument to make.

I for one am NOT capable of doing such things, and so are most others here, and in America, in fact.

Repukes are another thing. They have already proven what they would do.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. Lets just call this to a halt
You're never going to understand me and I'm not going to understand you.

Namaste and Happy New Year,
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. You do realize that American is not a race?
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 08:46 PM by K-W
Your comparison to Jews is wholly inappropriate.

First off, Hunter's point is not that Americans are evil, its that Americans, because of the actions of our government look evil to the rest of the world and to history.

His point is tht the government that we all fund and that some of us vote for is committing atrocities, this has nothing to do with bigotry. Americans arent implicated because they are of a certain race or creed, we are implicated because it is OUR government doing these things.

People view Americans badly generally because our government does bad things.
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AndyS40 Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
64. Without engaging in any hate/vitriol etc.
I have come to several conclusions in the last several years .. since Bush came to power anyway.

The first is I am forced to ask what is the bottom, if any, for my "fellow Americans" on the right. There doesn't seem to be any bottom, nor any limit to what they would accept so long as "their guy is in charge", but perhaps I just lack sufficient patience. My brother who is a right winger openly talks about how America should dominate the world, by military force --even nuclear blackmail or the actual use of nukes if necessary. He really believes this.

It's when large numbers of "ordinary" Americans hold sentiments like this (even unvoiced) that our country as we have known it is in trouble.

What that has brought about in me over the course of several long agonizing years is "so what about America?"

Maybe superpowers of all sorts are fundamentally bad to have existing in a multipolar world. They certainly do seem to cause enough trouble and draw enough hostility.

Maybe you can't alter the views of the few like my brother who are megalomaniacal about their perspective and bereft of reason and logic, by means of reason and logic, but only by them experiencing the bitter outcome of their ways.

Maybe America should break up (peacefully secede) into more likeminded culturally compatible regions of what is now the mainland United States. The remaining chunks which are neocon/Christian theocrat in nature wouldn't be able to amass enough military power to threaten people .. at least not without the cooperation of the urban and manufacturing base.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #64
74. Any peaceful solution would be welcome.
We tried that secession thing once and it didn't go so well. Besides, don't the red states have most of the nukes?

They will not stop in their descent into fascism on their own. They don't even know why they should. I hope your brother wakes up from his nightmare. We are maybe one more major incident away from concentration camps springing up all over the world.

I grew up in the south with a lot of hood-wearing relatives. Openly racist and damned proud of it. But they still always considered themselves good Americans. I just can't believe that they like what this country has become and where we are headed. They are angry right now and won't even discuss any of this.

People are waking up. But that is only the beginning. It will be difficult and dangerous to try and repair any of the damage that these monsters have done. But don't we have a duty to try?
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AndyS40 Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. Well, the wingers make a big deal about "hating liberals".
And as far as reasoning with people who don't want to be reasoned with, well, it just doesn't work. A person has to be open to having their views modified (or at least a civilized honest give and take) to make any of that possible.

I believe we are on the cusp of a major cultural divergence, or phase breaking. I do know that the people who support Bush STILL, after all this time, will not be convinced by anything short of their own personal destruction and/or maybe that of their immediate family that they're backing the wrong horse. And even if that were to happen, what then?

I believe in a crowd of 1000 people you might find 5 or 10 who has the potential to "wake up" you are talking about. The rest are just going to go about their merry way, and world events might cause the school/flock to pause temporarily. But that isn't waking up. They're addicted to blaming others for the consequences of the policies of the people they back; they've been taught well. If Bush lead this country to having half the cities in America destroyed, they'd still find a way to blame "liberals" for it.

I really think the best that can be hoped for is to defang them so they cannot do so much damage. And if they really hate liberals and progressives as much as they say they do, I think it's time to throw down the gauntlet and say, hey, well, if that's the case, you give us our little sections of the country and we'll leave you to yours.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #75
85. But underneath the brainwashing the whole thing is fake.
It is all set up as a partisan divide. That is not true at all. The real disagreement is between those that want to enslave the world and those that see it happening and wish to prevent it.

It is easier for me to concede that Bush is merely a patsy in most of this. Where are the Democrats? Don't they share in the blame? How did they get out maneuvered so badly?

It is past the point of fixing blame here or there with the folks who supported (and still support) Bush. I don't think it is all their fault alone. There are too many willing partners on both sides of the aisle. A lot of 'liberals' still cringe whenever Bush and Hitler are mentioned in the same sentence. Just look at this thread at how many folks here are willing to be apologists for American fascism. Everybody does it, is their excuse.

No, I think it is time to let the wingers off the hook a little bit. We will need their help, I think. Hating liberals is a misdemeanor, hardly worth wasting the paper to write a citation. Supporting fascism (like some posters here) is much, much worse. More akin to a capital offense in my view, especially if they claim they are leftists. This is the real root cause of the ascent of the Nazis. Not the skinheads.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
80. Since you mentioned it
not only did I find no redeeming social value in HST's rant, I have personally never found the slightest value in any of his work. I think it is probably a gender issue, but his work to me, is a pool of bile and vomit. Excess is, in the long run, simply that. Anger can be admirable but in my opinion, if it is unchecked it become just spew. And a full torrent will wash everything away.
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Dangerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. I agree...
And Bush has become Hitler minute by minute.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. No no no, you're wrong. There's no resemblance whatsoever.
Hitler had this little mustache, you see. And he talked funny. So you're
completely off base there. You can always tell the Nazis because they wear
these peaked caps and lots of leather and zey haff zese funny accents
when zey ask you "May I see yoor paaaaay-pers pleese!" and ven zey say
"Vee haff veys of maekink you Talk!"

Hmmm.... have I heard anything resembling that lately? Naw. Not a chance.
Not in this country. Let's talk about Michael Jackson.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
38. It's not a happy thought to think he was right.
However he was, and is.

We HAVE become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the world.

We WILL kill if you don't move out of our way.

What has he said here that is NOT true?
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Clara T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
67. America suffers from self delusion
Will the Real USA Please Stand Up?

Will the Real USA Please Stand Up?
by Daniel Vallin
www.dissidentvoice.org
December 29, 2005



 

It is amazing the power of mythology over logic -- mythology which people can accept and believe regardless of all facts and evidence to the contrary, mythology about who they are, where they live, what their history is. It seems to me that no industrial nation suffers more under the weight of its own myths than the United States. I remember as a child how in school each morning we would have to repeat a pledge to the American flag, and we heard again and again how great, wealthy, and democratic the United States is. These things were told as eternal truths, and never questioned, while we simultaneously learned about the scientific method and the importance of factual assessment and logical analysis. I would like to expose some of these myths in simple terms.

It seems to me that the general consensus, at least from Americans themselves, is false. Most Americans I know are of the opinion that the United States is the greatest country in the world, the richest, the most democratic, a great force of good in the world. It is the world’s leading country in progressive thinking. It is a generous country that gives so much to poor countries. All of these statements are false. 

While the United States is certainly among the richest nations on earth, in terms of material wealth, the standard of living is not amongst the top. The richest countries in terms of per capita income are Luxembourg and Norway. In terms of natural resources, Russia is the undisputed champion. In terms of the quality of life, we must also consider the following facts about the United States. Its citizens are the only Western people who are not guaranteed some sort of health coverage. In fact, more than 45 million Americans have no health insurance, according to the U.S. Census Bureau (see also Washington Post, 27 Aug 2004, p. A01). Not surprisingly, then, the United States has the highest infant mortality rate of any Western country, ranking 28th in the world. Similarly, it has the lowest life expectancy of any Western country, ranking 24th in the world, according to the World Health Organization. The United States has the highest percentage of its population living in poverty (of industrialized nations), according to the United Nations Human Development Index. The U.S. Census Bureau has reported that in 2003, the percentage of Americans living in poverty rose to 13.5%. That’s 35 million people living in poverty in the country the Americans call the world’s richest! Low life expectancy, high infant mortality, tens of millions living in poverty and without health insurance. These are not exactly the hallmarks of a wealthy nation. Such is the power of myth.

<snip>

When I mention that the United States has the largest prison population of any country (see International Centre for Prison Studies at King's College London), that it is the only remaining industrial power where the death penalty is accepted (if not to say celebrated, at least by a certain segment of the population), no American seems to find this evidence that the United States is not a particularly progressive thinking country.  

All of these myths add up to a country with serious self-image problems, a country suffering from self-delusion. There can be no improvement without first the recognition of the real situation, no moving forward without first an honest assessment of the facts of the matter.

It seems to me that Americans have a very selective perception, a self-perception that is harmful to themselves and the rest of the world. In his eulogy for Rosa Parks, the Reverend Al Sharpton admonished the mourners that it isn’t enough to call it like you see it: “a mirror isn’t just to reflect what you see, a mirror is to correct what you see!” In the interest of both reflection and correction, I think it is now time to start debunking the myths.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Dec05/Vallin1229.htm
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
73. +1
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sara8 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
78. Acts
Acts in the name of christianity have been responsible for some pretty fuc.ed up consequences in the last 70 years.

Like Christianity, Islam permits fighting in self-defense, in defense of religion, or on the part of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. It lays down strict rules of combat which include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock. As Muslims see it, injustice would be triumphant in the world if good men were not prepared to risk their lives in a righteous cause. The Quran says:

Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors. (2:190)

If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things. (8:61)

War, therefore, is the last resort, and is subject to the rigorous conditions laid down by the sacred law. The term jihad literally means 'Struggle', and Muslims believe that there are two kinds of jihad. The other 'jihad' is the inner struggle which everyone wages against egotistic desires, for the sake of attaining inner peace.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #78
87. Welcome to DU, Sara
peace...God.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
84. A lot of it comes from "Southern honor"... basically...
the shithead mythos that there's honor in fighting for some made-up high ideals when in reality you're defending unconscionable, immoral behaviors and traditions. This thinking is linked to the Southern two-faced behavior of being very friendly to your face, then speaking very ill of you to others. (Note: I can say all this, as I am a Southerner, and I know whereof as I speak)

Another way of looking at this is that the same crapheads who fought for continuing slavery are more or less the same crapheads who keep getting our nation into trouble.

I would recommend to everyone an article in the Journal of The Historical Society by Bertram Wyatt-Brown: "The Ethic of Honor in National Crises: The Civil War, Vietnam, Iraq and the Southern Factor". It's a great read, and a great eye-opener.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #84
89. interesting
peace
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
91. Bushes did business with NAZIs. CIA used NAZIs. Poppy Bush is CIA.
DUer bobthedrummer has written extensively on the subject and started a heck of a thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853

More on the subject:



No Conspiracy Theory. It’s a Fact: Bush is a NAZI

Conspiracies exist. Take a look at the family of George Walker Bush. Their treachery turns up everywhere from arming Hitler through the Eisenhower (Nixon)-CIA backed Bay of Pigs invasion to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy through the escalation of Vietnam and crookedly on through to the present outrage, the pretzeldunce.

Here are facts, not theory, part of the historical record -- things we can see with our own eyes and feel with our own hands:

Business as Usual, Redemption

The American Axis: Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh, and the Rise of the Third Reich


EXCERPT...

If Edsel Ford violated federal laws by continuing to do business with the Nazis after Pearl Harbor, he was not alone. In a small box housed among the U.S. National Archives Trading With the Enemy files sits an explosive series of documents implicating another prominent American family in this serious crime. On October 20, 1942, ten months after the United States entered the Second World War, the U.S. Alien Property Custodian, Leo T Crowley, issued Vesting Order 248 under the Trading With the Enemy Act, seizing all assets of the Union Banking Corporation of New York, which was being operated as a front for "enemy nationals." According to a federal government investigation, Union Banking was not a bank at all, but a cloak operation, laundering money for Germany's powerful Thyssen family. The Thyssens were instrumental in financing Hitler's rise to power and had supplied the Nazi regime with much of the steel it needed to prosecute the war.

One of the partners of the Union Banking Corporation, the man who oversaw all investments on behalf of the Nazi-affiliated owners, happened to be Prescott Bush, grandfather of the American president George W Bush. Through the connections of his father-in-law, Bert Walker (George W's maternal great-grandfather), who has been described by a U.S. Justice Department investigator as "one of Hitler's most powerful financial supporters in the United States. Prescott Bush specialized in managing the investments for a number of German companies, many with extensive Nazi ties. These included the North American operations of another Nazi front, the Hamburg-Amerika Line, which was directly linked to a network set up by IG Farben to smuggle agents, money and propaganda for Germany.'° According to a 1934 Congressional investigation, the Hamburg-Amerika line "subsidized a wide range of pro-Nazi propaganda efforts both in Germany and the United States." Both Walker and Bush were directors of a holding company, the Harriman Fifteen Corporation, that directly financed the line.

Shortly before the government seized the assets of the Union Banking Corporation, in fact, it had also seized American-held assets of the Hamburg-Amerika Line under the Trading With the Enemy Act. A few weeks after the government seized Bush's shares in Union Banking, it seized the assets of three other Nazi front companies whose investments were handled by Bush-the Holland-American Trading Corporation, the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation, and the Silesian-American Corporation. The paper trail indicated that the bulk of Prescott Bush's financial empire was being operated on behalf of Nazi Germany.

According to former United States Justice Department Nazi war crimes investigator John Loftus, who has investigated the Bush family's considerable ties to the Third Reich, Prescott Bush's investment prowess helped make millions of dollars for various Nazi-front holding companies, and he was well paid for his efforts. "The Bush family fortune that helped put two members of the family in the White House can be traced directly to the Third Reich," says Loftus, who is currently president of the Florida Holocaust museum.

In his own investigation, Loftus discovered a disturbing trail connecting the Bush family's money laundering efforts to the Thyssens and their role in building up the Nazi war machine. He believes these connections deserve more scrutiny: "There are six million skeletons in the Thyssen family closet, and a myriad of criminal and historical questions to be answered about the Bush family's complicity."

CONTINUED…

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/BusinessAsUsual_TAA.html

SOURCE:

Business as Usual,
Redemption


excerpted from the book

“The American Axis
Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh, and the Rise of the Third Reich”

by Max Wallace
St. Martin's Griffin, 2003, paper

DU thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3172400


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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #91
97. I wish people would grok this...
:kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. Michael Valentine Smith picked things up PDQ.
Why it's so hard for so many landlubbers, I'll never know.

The main thing: A most happy, peace-filled and joyous new year to you and yours, Karenina!

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. Ebenso!
:loveya:
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Me too and have we EVER heard anyone from the MSM
question a Bush family member about their Nazi connections? I don't think so. I would bet 99% of this country knows NOTHING about it.
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