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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:02 AM
Original message
Sixth Grader Tasered
CNN is reporting that a sixth grade student was tasered by a "resource officer". I am not aware of what a resource officer does; however, this has got to stop. Someone has to stand up and put a stop to this tasering. It seems that police and other officials are not going taser crazy. In the last two years there has been a pregnenet woman tasered, a college kid who may not have been doing very much wrong, and now a sixth grader. This has got to stop. It is going crazy.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. Did CNN report why the resource officer tasered the student?
Seems a good idea to include any info on that part of the news story if it is posted in LBN ;)
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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. To Break Up a Fight
The sixth grader that was tasered was a boy who had gotten in a fight with a girl. It seems that the two children were brought the the principal's office but did not stop fighting after being brought to the office. It appears the boy was tasered once to get him to stop fighting the girl. The school officials are saying that the boy was tasered twice in that after being tasered once the boy returned to fighting the girl. School officials are also saying that the boy seemed to be "resisting all efforts to separate the two students".

I just do not see why anyone would have to taser a sixth grader. Unless this kid was abnormally large I do not see why school officials could not have just held the kid down or manually pulled him off the girl. I do not think sith graders are that big or that powerful.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. it is ridiculous. beyond ridiculous. outrageous. geezus.... what
a messed up people we are and what are we doing to our children. ya ya ya... tasering cause we are such inept adults
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
77. If you were the parent of the 85 pound girl
who had been jumped on by a 200 pound boy who was hitting her about the face and neck, what would you have wanted the five foot tall police officer to do?

I can't think of any good alternatives, when every second is increasing the chance that the girl will wind up with a broken jaw or a concussion.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #77
144. Use a club instead of electricity. NT
NT
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #77
147. Police are TRAINED to handle these kinds
of things physically, there are plenty of ways to do it without resorting to a goddamned electric cattle prod on a CHILD. It's just sheer laziness on their part.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #147
156. I wonder what their training consists of. Do you have special training
for dealing with kids?

I wouldn't be surprised if the police, in their training, were encouraged to use the taser in the face of violent behavior on a larger suspect. And this police woman was only five feet tall.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #77
161. If I were the parent of the small girl being attacked,
I would send a bouquet of roses and a thank-you-note to the officer.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #77
168. What would they have done before they were issured tasers?
Jeez.

If you can't think of any good alternatives, it's
a good thing you didn't have to make decisions
3 years ago.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #168
169. The cop's other main alternatives before tasers
were using the baton -- i.e., knocking the kid out, because otherwise the kid could just grab the baton from the cop -- or using pepper spray, or mace, both of which would have affected the girl.

The officer was only 5 feet tall. You're critizing me for not knowing of alternatives, and yet I'm not a police officer or a teacher. What do you suggest as an alternative way for a small woman to pull a large, violent, boy off of a tiny girl? Without the officer getting hurt herself? And don't forget the girl's risk of serious injury is increasing by the second -- there isn't time to call around the school for reinforcements.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #169
171. Good thing the officer didn't have
a bazooka.

:eyes:


I'd rather have my kid "maced" than tasered, wouldn't you?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #171
176. Not if I were the parent of the girl who was getting hit.
I think the taser was the better choice because it didn't hurt her. Why should she have had to suffer any more than she did?
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
108. Agree
School officials have been breaking up fights between kids for the last two centuries. Since when did they suddenly lose their teaching skills and have to start Tasering children.

IMHO, no one in a school should be allowed to possess, let alone use a device of this kind.
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dubykc Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Gee, maybe they should have been put in different rooms.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
74. At first they were just verbally arguing. They were brought to
the school office to resolve the dispute. It doesn't sound like anyone expected the 200 boy -- right in front of the adults -- to fly into a rage, jump on the 85 pound girl, and start punching her in the face and head.

With 20/20 hindsight, yes, they should have been kept apart.
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nomo Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Abnormally large is RIGHT
Reports say this particular 11-year old weighed 200 pounds!!
I say, shoulda just used a regular cattle prod.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Basket hold still works.
Better yet, a loud noise often shocks the kids enough to stop their fighting so you can split them up and put them in different rooms.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. In todays
litigious society-basket holds on kids can resort in either an abuse charge or a sexual abuse charge. And basket holds can be dangerous and schools can't afford to train and take the liability for everyone. And don't underestimate these kids. You should see some of these workers comp class room injuries I have had to file. One teacher even had a miscarriage after being head butted by a little kid. Can't say they were connected-but she had problems after the incident.

I run a risk of a law suit every day as a nurse. It is particularly hard for the pre k kids. I had a little Katrina kid that was freaking out once. The only thing that would calm him down was for me to have him sit in my lap and just hug and comfort him until he could get control of himself. Or the time I had to dig splinters out of a kid's backside. I mean they were big nasty splinters. I called Mom after to explain what I had to do. And I won't even tell you what I have to do when I check kids for bruises before we file with CPS (on those, I have some one with me). I feel for my male School Nurses-it is almost impossible for them to do elementary schools.

We live in a dysfunctional society, and kids bear the brunt of it. Every year it gets harder and harder to teach these kids, let alone test them. I had a conversation with an older teacher. We both have decided that we are not long for this profession and worry how the younger teachers will ever make it.


No telling how many rules I broke taking care of these kids. Hugs are pretty much outlawed in the school setting and I can't tell you how many kids come in to the clinic needing a hug more than anything else I can give. And I can't tell you how many problems a peppermint from my jar has solved (candy is also illegal, seriously, we have food nazi that check out the schools). I live in fear that I will end up on the front page somewhere or canned.

Do I think the kid should have been tasered, not particularly, but he should have been allowed to cool down in another room.

PS How was the Dinner-I thought about you:hug:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. A teacher in our area lost an eye
Kids were fighting, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. One of the kids punched her in the eye and she had to have her eye removed.

I also know a teacher who miscarried after being kicked by a 3rd grader. And I know more than a few teachers who took a stress leave during pregnancy because they were afraid they would be injured.

One of my little darlings did that shoulder thrust thing at me last week. You know, clenched fists, angry look and shoving his upper body in my direction, like he wanted to hit me. I grabbed my cell phone out of my pocket and said "You hit me and first thing I do is call 911, then we go down to the office. And when the cops come, one of us will be leaving here in handcuffs. You wanna guess which one of us that will be?" Then I called his mother and told her the same thing.

I have a new student who kicked the principal at his previous school. I told his parents that if he kicks me, I will call the cops and press charges.

Some teachers threaten to hit the kids back. Not me. I am too old for that. But I sure let them know I don't tolerate physical violence.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. That is the sad reality, proud2Blib.
I think Tasers have a great potential for abuse -- but in this case, it seems justified to me. Something had to be done right away, and there wasn't time to find an army of gym teachers, or whatever, to pull this out of control boy off of the girl that he was beating on.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. I have consistently opposed tasers
So I have to disagree with using them on kids.

But I do understand that kids get out of control. Believe me, I KNOW they do.

Sorry I wish I had a better answer.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Too many of us, too much of the time
wish that things could be simple. Black and white, no shades of gray. (I know you're not one of them, by the way.)

I thought there was no excuse for a taser in school . . . until I read about this situation. Now, I don't know. But if it had been my daughter underneath that boy, I would have wanted them to get him off her immediately. The alternative, in the past, would have been for the police officer to club him with her "baton." That doesn't sound any better than a taser to me -- and the boy could have wrestled it away from her unless she knocked him unconscious. As it is, 50.000 volts didn't stop him from attacking the girl -- the officer had to shock him twice.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. They should have separated these kids after the initial fight
That is such a no-brainer. If they had done that, the boy couldn't have attacked her.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #70
78. The initial fight was just a verbal dispute. The boy had grabbed food
off her tray and she wanted him to pay her $2 for it. They were brought to the office together to resolve the dispute. Why are you assuming that they knew the boy would physically attack her in front of the adults?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #78
89. Because kids don't just all of a sudden jump up and attack each other
I teach many volatile kids. I am a special ed teacher and many of my kids have a history of violent behavior. You learn to read body language, and watch facial expressions. This kid had to have sent out some kind of a sign that he was going to pounce on her. I doubt he walked out of the cafeteria quietly and calmly made his way to the office where they were talking. These adults should have made sure he was calm before asking him to talk to the girl about what happened.

Please understand I am NOT defending the boy. I hope he gets his butt kicked out of school for what he did.

But as an educator, I know first hand that there are many things we can do to prevent kids from beating the crap out of each other at school. This kid had to have been obviously angry before he attacked this girl. IMO, the adults who handled this are responsible for putting this girl in danger. The boy did NOT just all of a sudden pounce on her.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #89
97. Kids certainly can suddenly attack each other.
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 03:00 PM by pnwmom
It happened to me, when I was ten. Our classroom had some rubber balls to play with at recess, and I had one of them in my hands. Out of nowhere, a boy suddenly came up and demanded that I hand it over. I said no. The next thing I knew, he was punching me as hard as he could.

The attack came completely out of the blue -- we had no history. I had just come to the school a few weeks before and didn't know the boy, other than his name. We had been having social studies class, and then it was time for recess. I got the ball, I wouldn't hand it over to him -- wham!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. It wasn't your responsibility to know this kid's history
I am sure it felt like an out of the blue attack to you. But you were 10. Something tells me this kid had probably gotten physical at recess or at school before that. Just a hunch though.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. That's certainly possible. But that particular attack did come
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 03:37 PM by pnwmom
out of the blue. We had just been having an ordinary classroom morning -- he hadn't been getting in trouble or anything. In fact, I had hardly noticed him until that day, so he wasn't a consistent "trouble-maker" or anything. But that day at recess, I got the ball, he wanted it, so he started slugging me, right there in the classroom.

I don't even remember what happened after that, I was so shocked.

But suppose you are right, and he had gotten physical at school before. What he did to me was still sudden, and I don't see how a teacher could have prevented it. He said, gimme that ball. I said no. Four or five words had passed between us in total and he started pummeling me, right in the classroom, in front of the teacher. Thankfully, we were about the same size. He could have done a lot more damage if he had been more than twice as big as me.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. What happened?
Did you hit him back? Did he get suspended or anything?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. All I remember is other girls screaming for the teacher, and she came.
I definitely did not hit him back. I was too busy bending over in pain and trying to fend off the punches. I didn't know a single thing about fighting. If I had had any idea what was going to happen, I probably wouldn't have been brave enough to say no to him in the first place.

I don't think the teacher had any problem getting him away from me. He was the size of a regular fifth grade boy -- we were definitely both smaller than the teacher. I don't remember what happened after that, or what kind of "trouble" he was in.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #78
90. When I taught, even verbal fights were treated as fights.
We separated them first to calm them down. Of course, it was high school, but it worked in most situations.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
87. Good, thanks!
:)

I did have it easier when I taught in that I was in the Catholic schools. I was allowed to touch my students, even hug them if need be. You're right--hugs cure most bad things, and there's nothing wrong with a timely piece of candy. ;)

I've been out for a few years, raising my kids. I feel bad for those still in the schools with NCLB and all that crap, let alone all the other worries and problems. It's a tough, tough job.

I almost waded into a fight when I was preggers. Another teacher got there and had a student hold me back. In the moment, I'd forgotten I was pregnant. Oddly enough, that was all it took to break the girls up, realizing they could've hurt me in the process. It got them stopped long enough to get them down to the office (staggered and to different offices, of course).
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #87
116. It has changed for the worst
since NCLB. These kids don't need another test-they need guidance and reassurance.

I have parted fighting kids like Moses parting the Red Sea. I can boom my voice like a drill sargent and give a look that would sent a nun to the confession booth. The kids know to back down (and I have had some close calls). Even the rough ones respond to me after a while-and I have dealt with some rough ones. I do keep them apart and can handel myself well.

I remember reading somewhere that Dr Karl Menninger kept a jar of ginger snaps on his desk. He swore that most problems could be solved over a ginger snap. When I first became a School Nurse-I remembered that observation. I have used soft puffy peppermints for 13 years. You would never guess how many problems I have solved over a peppermint or two.

I also have a cartoon of me, the School Nurse with the title Miracles Preformed Daily and an icon of St Micheal (no wimpy angels here-I need the big guns). I am not Catholic, but he seems to listen and handel my bigger problems when I ask.

There a many ways to solve the problem and they chose the way they did. I can't imagine doing it that way-but most school folks do want to keep the kids safe and they thought that was their only way. Just sad all the way around.

I am glad to see you post and I hope all is well. I smiled as I watched the election and at the Thanksgiving Dinner I attended. I was thinking about you and hope you are getting stronger Knitter. I know you had a lot of folks saying some prayers for you lately. Hope Hubby and the wee ones are doing well too.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. We're doing fairly well, thank you.
The pain is more just a soreness, and since it was a "bizarre" benign tumor, my treatment now is just some routine followup and to focus on healing. I can't believe how much this surgery has taken out of me, though. I get tired at the dardnest times.

I can't believe how bad things have gotten. I miss the classroom, but I don't miss dealing with parents or with all that administrative crap.

I'm glad you're in your school. The schools I taught in only had a school nurse one to two days a week. I hated that! What was I supposed to do on the days they weren't there? I had a girl pass out in my class once with a fever, and I couldn't do anything other than make sure she was comfortable and had water when she woke up. No nurse that day, and her mom was out of the country on a trip, so there was no one to help her get home. Felt helpless.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
137. At least your school district still HAS nurses.
My kids school district eliminated them years ago as a legal liability. When kids are injured, they either call the parents or an ambulance, but NOBODY, under any circumstances, is allowed to actually aid an injured child (except to calm them and offer moral support). The most the school will do is offer the child a Band-Aid for smaller injuries (which the child has to apply himself), or use gauze to apply pressure to a bleeding wound until an ambulance or parent arrives. Cleaning scrapes, offering medicines, or even removing splinters are all strictly prohibited. If they need to be done, a parent must be summoned to the school to do them. They don't even hold prescription medicines anymore...if a kid has a prescription that must be taken during school hours, a parent is expected to visit the school and administer it. They will risk no liability and accept no responsiblity for medicating students.

And lawyers wonder why so many people don't like them.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
148. And what about the risk of lawsuits
from the use of tasers? I'd much rather have my son endure the "basket hold" instead of being tasered.

I am, indeed, sorry for what you have to go through as a school nurse. I can remember many a hug from my own school nurses back in the very old days and the nurses always seemed to know when it was needed most. Hard to believe that's largely forbidden now.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
166. Some kids these days are like wild animals.
It's depressing to think of their future, when their socialization and general life skills are appropriate only for incarceration.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
53. He had jumped on her and was hitting her in the face and head.
And he was 200 pounds to the girl's 85.

They had to do something effective, quickly. I don't know if a taser was the best solution, but the "traditional" method --- hitting him with a police baton -- probably wouldn't have been preferable.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #53
86. That's not traditional in schools.
Look, fights happen. Unequal fights happen. I once watched as three adults (the teacher and two aides) had to hold down a 6'5" kid in full-blown episode to keep him from hurting himself or others. This kind of thing is usual.

A loud noise to break it up, separating the kids, grabbing one of his arms from behind and pulling back on a finger--those all work and aren't harmful.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. It was the traditional weapon for a police officer, which
this woman was. Unfortunately, she was only five feet tall, and had no back-up. A 200 pound boy had jumped an 85 pound girl and was hitting her in the head. By the time they had rounded up other strong helpers to restrain him, she could have been seriously injured.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. True, but even police officers are trained in other methods.
They use the ones I listed, too.

The real problem came at the beginning. First of all, they should have treated the altercation in the cafeteria like the fight it was, separated the kids to find out what was really going on (why would he take her food--did he not have money or lunch to eat?), and only done mediation after they'd both calmed down.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #92
99. I agree that would have been better. Much better.
But once the violence had started, given the fact that every moment lost meant a greater risk of injury to the girl -- what should the police officer have done? Waited for back-up?
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #99
115. She should've use non-violent measures first.
Like the ones I listed. She should've made a really loud noise, like throwing a desk on the floor or blowing a loud whistle, grabbed his arms when he stopped because of the noise, pulled a finger back, and had someone get the girl out of there. Or something similar. She had the taser for whatever reason and used it because she had it. When you're dealing with kids, you have to think on your feet and rather creatively in order to keep things orderly.

That's what is usually done, not a taser. I had a kid throw a desk at me when I was in college in an education lab, and I didn't taser the kid. I got him away from the kids who were making him mad and talked him down.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. Was the kid a lot bigger than you?
Two hundred pounds is large even for a grown man, much less a 6th grader.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. No, he wasn't, but my mom dealt with kids who were.
She taught high school art for 33 years, and she often had to break up fights of kids much bigger than she. She even had to deal with a kid who brought a gun to school to "settle" a drug deal gone bad. She didn't taser the kid, just used all the other teachers doing hall duty to track him until a couple blocked a door and another called the cops. It could've gone badly, but it didn't, thank goodness.

I almost waded into a fight when I was seven months pregnant. When another teacher yelled out to keep me from going in, the noise was enough to get the girls' attention (one of whom was bigger and stronger than I) and get them to stop. We both then took a girl and dealt with it. No need for tasers.

The reality is, you have to think fast with kids, anticipate, read them carefully, and be creative. Just reaching for a weapon (since it didn't work, did it?) isn't an answer.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #121
151. But teachers do get hurt, as was described in another post.
I'd rather have a taser used on a big, violent kid than risk a teacher's eyesight, or get her kicked in the stomach.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #151
154. We're going to have to agree to disagree here.
I've taught high school, did training time in middle school, have been in scary situations, and I know what I would've done in that situation. My mom taught high school art for 33 years, the last three years of which she taught in a residential facility for at-risk kids. I know what she did in similar situations there. No tasers were involved.

This was a bad situation all around. Something quite this violent is more rare but not unknown or unheard of. Teachers do get hurt, I know some who were and know stories of worse, but it's part of the job. We learn how to defend and protect ourselves, and it doesn't always work. It's a fear all teachers have, and everyone deals with that fear differently.

There are big, violent kids in schools and small, violent kids. There are violent teachers and administrators. There are violent parents. It's part of education--the messes outside become the messes inside.

It's not that I don't care, it's that I had to become more zen about it when I was a teacher. I don't believe that tasers are the answer, though. The kid could've died, and I'm sorry, but putting a child at risk like that is not okay. The girl was at risk, true, but the reality is, I've seen small girls do damage to big guys who have been taught never to hurt a girl. Everyone in that room was at risk, in reality, and not just from the boy. It was a horrible situation, and the school should make sure it never happens again.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. Is that what you'd tell to the parents of THIS girl?
"The girl was at risk, true, but the reality is, I've seen small girls do damage to big guys who have been taught never to hurt a girl."

It doesn't matter that some other girl, in some other circumstances, might be able to hurt a boy who wouldn't hit back.

In this case, the boy twice her weight had jumped on the girl and was hitting her in the head. This girl was at great risk of injury -- less so than the risk of a 200 pound boy getting a shock. IMHO.

You're right, though . . . this is one of those gray areas where thoughtful people will disagree.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-03-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #155
177. Obviously not. I'm not a callous jerk.
Thanks for thinking that and then blaring it in your subject line. :eyes:

You're obviously upset by this story, posting and posting on it as you are. The whole thing is a tragedy and was handled poorly from the beginning. We can both agree on that. What we disagree on is whether it was okay to taser the boy or not. As you say, even thoughtful people can disagree on that. Surely we can do that peacefully without any shouting.

I'm a former teacher and mother of two young ones. I have my own background that informs my opinions, just as you have yours. Let's drop this, since it's come to shouting and constant back-and-forth posting.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #115
120. How do you know what she tried first?
I didn't see that addressed in the articles.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. She tased him three times.
That makes me think that she didn't try much else. Not much time, since fights don't tend to last all that long in real time (seem to be forever but really aren't much more than a few minutes), for anything else.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #122
149. That still doesn't tell us what she tried BEFORE the taser.
And all the articles I saw mentioned 2 shocks, not three. Do you have a link for that?

And did she try something BEFORE she used the taser? I haven't seen that issue even addressed anywhere.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
165. I hate to say it, but I kind of agree with you.
It's a shame that a sixth grader would be so out of control.

His parents should be ashamed. What kind of upbringing did this boy get? I'd be curious to see the family environment.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. I broke up a fight like that once, and I didn't taser anyone.
A group from the middle school had come over to have the fight in front of my apartment building. I put my baby in a safe place and stormed out of the building, which was enough to make half of the crowd run away. I then made the rest leave. Wow. That was soooo hard.

I taught high school and had many things happen. I never once needed to use force on a kid, let alone a taser. For fights, we never put the kids in the same room afterwards--we always split them up. That was their first mistake.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
65. I was thinking that too
Even a rookie knows you keep the kids apart after a fight. Sheesh.

I know what you mean about breaking up fights. It isn't that hard. I don't know if it is the teacher voice or what, but they usually will stop. But then I am an elementary teacher and we deal more with threats than actual fights. I always love the look on a kid's face when I say "And just when do you think you will be able to beat him up? In class, in front of your teacher, or at lunch in front of the principal?" We just don't leave the kids unsupervised and they know that.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #65
83. I know! Seriously--they were the ones who let it get out of hand.
The best advice I ever got on breaking up fights was to make a loud noise, like slamming a garbage can on the tile floor. It really works.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #83
93. My first year teaching
I walked in between two kids to break up a fight. I got a black eye. :)

I have never tried that again. LOL
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. My mom warned me of that.
She was really good at making things de-escalate somehow. I wish I knew that trick for my kids. ;)
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #95
102. I have learned to separate them
and never take my eyes off of them. I have a new one who has a history of violence. He sits alone, not with the group. And I load him down with work. Keep them busy busy busy.

I have learned to focus on prevention. And fortunately, I have had very few incidents. Thankfully, I have no need to keep a taser in my desk. :)
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #102
117. See, that's because you're awesome.
;)

My mom had this way of talking down any kid. I saw it happen many times when I was in high school. She just had this way of doing it. Then, she'd keep them separate and all, too.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
34. No, it was an argument, not a fight
It escalated into a fight after the boy and girl had been brought to the office.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/clayton/stories/2006/11/29/1130mettaser.html
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. He jumped on her and was hitting her in the face and head.
It may have started as a verbal argument, but he wasn't tasered for arguing.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. The jumping and hitting started AFTER the two were taken to the office
Yes, the tasering was a response to the boy's physical violence.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. I understand the distinction, but not its importance.
The two were brought to the office to resolve a verbal dispute. This kind of thing happens every day in schools. They obviously didn't expect the boy to suddenly jump on the girl -- in front of adults -- and start hitting her.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. I'm not sure what your point is
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 02:17 PM by slackmaster
The use of force in this situation was unfortunate, but it was necessary. I don't see how the school officials could have foreseen what happened.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #66
79. I actually agree with both your points.
Before, when you talked about it being a verbal disbute, I misunderstood you to be minimizing what he did . I get what you were saying now, and I agree -- they wouldn't have known that it would escalate the way it did. And I agree.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
73. I am going to guess that this boy was somewhat volatile
I doubt he just suddenly snapped. The smart thing would have been to make sure BOTH kids were really calmed down before they got them together to solve their problem.

I do this kind of mediation with kids all the time. First step is to ask "Are you ready to talk about what happened?"

They should have kept these kids apart.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. It sounds like you know more about mediation than they did.
Unfortunately. But once it had reached the point of violence, once he was on top of her and hitting her in the head, what do you think they should have done?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #80
96. That is a tough one
I wasn't there. But wasn't there a cop there in the room? I guess if I had been one of the teachers in that room, I would have expected the cop to know how to restrain the kid.

I know, that's not a very good answer. Sorry :)
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #96
111. There was a cop -- that was the "resource officer."
It was that five foot tall cop who used the taser that she had been supplied with.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. Some of them are amazingly violent
But I don't think tasering them is the answer.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. Atlanta paper reports that the girl weighed 85 lbs to the boy's 200.
The female police officer is about 5 feet tall and 140 lbs, and says she tasered him twice because he continued to hit the girl after the first shock.

Other details at link:

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/clayton/stories/2006/11/30/1201mettasers.html
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
146. It doesn't matter why, it should never
be used on a child. I don't give a shit WHAT the reason is. My parents are retired teachers who had to deal with this kind of shit all the time, even forty years ago, and neither they nor their colleagues and administrators needed a goddamned electric cattle prod to do it. Kids have been fighting since time began, and kids have been fighting in schools since the first cavemen began teaching their kids how to hunt and gather.

My parents could tell you some real horror stories from forty fucking years ago, and even in their own school days. Nobody needed a goddamn cattle prod to do it, either, this is just sheer laziness on the part of all involved. And it can be very dangerous for people, especially kids, with certain medical conditions and the medical effects of it are still largely unknown. It's ridiculous, it's nuts, it's crazy.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. i have children this age and nieces and nephews that went thru
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 10:20 AM by seabeyond
this age recently. i have not seen a single child this age that is so out of control or has power over me. i would have to know the facts but it certainly appears an inability on adults, little to do with a child that age.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. I've seen one
a 200 lb fifth grader who beat the hell out of an 18 y/o downs syndrome neighbor kid with a hockey stick. The man who lives next door to the assailant is a a good 6 foot 4, and had a hell of a time getting that stick out of the kids hand...and THEN the kid went for a shovel!

The 5th grade is now in 8th and getting plenty of psych help--and seems to be doing pretty well, finally. The poor hockey-loving 18 y/o and his family sold their home and moved away.

If a boy tries to bust on one of my daughters, law enforcement had better use any means necessary to stop him. I'm not advocating tasers, but I'm shocked at DU feeling all sorry for a huge kid who was beating up a girl at school.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
75. I don't feel sorry for him as much as
I think there are a lot of things they could have done to avoid having to taser him.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. I agree -- before the violence started.
But once it started, what were the alternatives that would have been effective and fast and safer?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #81
98. I have had training in restraint holds
and I would hope there was an administrator present who had also been trained. Most special ed teachers and administrators take the training. It was mandated in many states at one time. I don't know if that is still the case or not.

But like I said in another post, I would probably have expected the cop to know how to get the boy off of her.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. I agree that tasers need to be curtailed and so does the ACLU...
<snip>
Taser Abuse
Taser's are a powerful, non-leathal weapon that are supposed to be used by police as an alternative to using a firearm.

However, many officers have started using the taser on people who have already been subdued and are not a physical threat to the officer. Although it is touted as "non-leathal", the powerful 50,000 volt shock could easily cause death to someone who has health issues. Already, several people have died from being shocked by a taser, when that type of force was not required. Surely shooting a 12 year old girl for truancy is an abuse of taser usage.


Taser Abuse in the News
Tasers are pistol-like weapons that fire electrified barbs up to 25 feet, immobilizing people with painful shocks. A shock from a Taser stun gun caused a teenager in Chicago to go into ventricular fibrillation, a usually fatal heart disturbance. (Sep-02-05)


Register your Taser Case
If you or a loved one has suffered from death or serious injury, you may qualify for damages or remedies that may be awarded in a possible class action lawsuit. Please click the link below to submit your complaint and we will have a lawyer review your Taser complaint.

At LawyersandSettlements.com, it is our goal to keep you informed about important legal cases and settlements. We are dedicated to helping you resolve your legal complaints.
<more>
http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/taser_abuse


...other information:

<snip>
Taser officials say critics are mistakenly linking "coincidental deaths'' to the rising use of the popular stun guns, when the real causes are overdosing drug users or overagitated mental patients who frequently die in police custody without being stun-gunned.

But critics say the Arizona firm, which has put Tasers in the hands of more than 100,000 officers at 5,500 police agencies nationwide, has understated the weapon's risk. These assurances, opponents say, have encouraged some police departments to allow broad use of the stun guns against unarmed suspects who simply ignore commands or offer passive resistance. And lax control has sparked police Taser abuses.

An ACLU review of 33 deaths involving Tasers found that 90 percent of the suspects did not brandish weapons and two-thirds of the deceased fit the category of people who are psychologically agitated, intoxicated or have pre- existing heart problems.

The ACLU's Schlosberg cited eight deaths in which medical examiners either "determined that Tasers were a contributing factor in the death or could not be ruled out as a cause of death." <MORE>

http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/2004/Taser-Police-ACLU26sep04.htm
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. Oh.
From your subject line I thought you were saying the ACLU needs to be curtailed.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. How did the media find out that the kid had been tasered? Are the parents suing?
I'd be all for that.
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
8. I'm not for tasering children. But, I will say that girl could have been
hurt very badly and if it was my Daughter I would want them to use any means. What if it is all women at the school? Some 6th graders are quite large. If you tell a student to stop hurting another and he does not and you are 5"4" what are you suppose to do. The real question here is how does a child get so worked up that he feels the right to hurt another person? How has society failed him to the point that he uses violence to solve problems? Then, of course the adults are no better, using violence themselves to solve problems.
Maybe that it the solution. We should all stop excepting violence as a means to solve disputes.

Also, our diet comes to mind. Some additives lend some people to aggressive behavior. Maybe that child has a chemical problem due to his diet.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Since when did women get to be such wimps. A bunch of women
are quite capable of subduing a child, even a very large child. This is tasering is totally out of hand. Children are not cattle.

Bet this kid is a video game fanatic.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
138. The average age
of a teacher in the US is increasing every year. We are not wimps...we're just getting older. And since when did knowledge of physically subduing a kid become part of of the teacher's training? I don't know ANY teachers esp any 2 or 3 females that can subdue a 200 lb kid, esp. one that is out of control. Puleeze.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. I can see the school's argument for using the Taser, but
Tasers are great for cops in certain situations-Malice Green might be alive today if the Detroit Cops had had that technology available at that time.

When a big kid won't stop attacking, I can certainly see why the school would want to use some type of non-lethal force to stop it. There is probably some deep reason for the kid's aggression, but during the actual emergency, something has to be done to stop him at that moment. You can't duct-tape or handcuff them, you can't hold them down for very long, and if the parents won't pick them up from school and the police won't do anything, the school is in a bind.

I don't want to see 11 year olds tasered, but the school will have to come up with some kind of other plan to deal with these situations. How about letting the boys' gym teacher handle it? That's what my middle school usually did, and it frequently ended with a troubled kid landing in a snowdrift outside of the door, and spending 10 minutes in the cold until he calmed down. Parents now would probably get all worked up, but ten minutes in the cold usually did take the fight out of the kids.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. Glad you are such a proponent of Tasers. Here are 167 deaths theyve caused.
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 12:43 PM by shance
Enjoy.

167 cases of death following stun-gun use


Robert Anglen
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 5, 2006 01:20 PM


The Arizona Republic, using computer searches, autopsy reports, police reports, media reports and Taser's own records, has identified 167 cases in the United States and Canada of death following a police Taser strike since September 1999. In 27 cases, medical examiners said Tasers were a cause, a contributing factor or could not be ruled out in someone's death. In 35 cases, coroners and other officials reported the stun gun was not a factor. Below is a synopsis of each case. The Republic requested autopsy reports for all of the cases and so far has received 50.

1. David Flores, 37, Fairfield, Calif.

Sept. 28, 1999 advertisement




A private investigator, Flores died after being shocked three times during a scuffle with police. Flores suffered a heart attack. Toxicology results indicate Flores died from agitated delirium due to acute cocaine and methamphetamine intoxication.

2. Enrique Juarez Ochoa, 34, Bakersfield, Calif.

May 14, 2000

Police responded to a call from Ochoa's mother, who said her son was acting strangely. Police shocked and handcuffed Ochoa and placed him face down on the ground for 15-20 minutes. Officers transported him to a medical center for evaluation. About 15 minutes later, officers noticed that he had stopped moving. Autopsy report lists cause of death as disseminated intravascular coagulation due to blunt impact trauma while in a hyper-excitable state and cocaine toxicity.

3. Mark Burkett, 18, Gainesville, Fla.

June 17, 2001

Burkett, who suffered from paranoid schizophrenia, collapsed after struggling with officers at a county jail. Burkett was shocked with a Taser and became unresponsive. He died four days after being placed on life support. Autopsy report lists cause of death as acute exhaustive mania, meaning he worked himself into a frenzy that caused him to suffer a cardiac arrest Toxicology exam revealed no traces of cocaine, methamphetamine or steroids. Coroner notes that mania in psychiatric patients can lead to death. Coroner reports family history of paranoid schizophrenia.

4. Hannah Rogers-Grippi, 6-month-old fetus, Chula Vista, Calif.

Dec. 15, 2001

Police shocked a 36-year-old pregnant woman in the back for refusing to follow orders. At the hospital, fetal heart sounds were heard during the examination. Two days later, an exam revealed that the fetus had died. Autopsy report lists cause of death as intrauterine fetal demise. Maternal methamphetamine use was a contributing factor. The coroner said It was difficult to make a causative link between the Taser event and the intrauterine fetal death.

5. Marvin Hendrix, 27, Hamilton, Ohio

Dec. 17, 2001

Hendrix was fighting with paramedics at his house. A police officer shocked him twice. Two minutes after being shocked, he lost consciousness. An autopsy revealed Hendrix swallowed a bag of crack cocaine about seven hours before he died. The cause of death was cocaine toxicity. The medical examiner reported "the exact role of Taser in this individual's demise is unknown."

6. Steven Vasquez, 40, Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

Dec. 21, 2001

Vasquez was shocked during an altercation with police who were attempting to escort him out of a bar. A medical examiner said he died four days later as a result of drug toxicity, due to a mixture of pain medication. Coroner says Taser shocks were not a contributing factor in the death.

7. Vincent Delostia, 31, Hollywood, Fla.

Jan. 27, 2002

Delostia was running around in traffic then ran into the lobby of a hotel where he refused to leave. When police arrived, he lay down and kicked at officers. He was shocked, rolled onto his stomach and handcuffs were placed around his arms and legs. After 30 seconds of restraint, he stopped breathing. The coroner said the cause of death was cocaine toxicity and notes a history of bipolar disorder. Says Delostia exhibited multiple signs of excited delirium.

8. Anthony Spencer, 35, Philadelphia

Feb. 12, 2002

Police, responding to a domestic disturbance, used pepper spray and Tasers to subdue Spencer, who was brandishing a knife. He died in an ambulance en route to the hospital. City officials said tests reportedly found that the death was due to cocaine intoxication and that shocks from a Taser were not a contributing factor.

9. Henry Canady, 46, Hilliard, Fla.

March 27, 2002

Canady was shocked after he fled deputies who were attempting to arrest him on drug charges. The coroner said the cause of death was cocaine toxicity and artery disease. The stress of his struggle with police might have contributed to his death.

10. Richard Baralla, 36, Pueblo, Colo.

May 17, 2002

Police arrested Baralla after he was seen walking down a street exhibiting strange behavior. Officers sprayed him with chemical spray, shocked him with Taser and handcuffed his legs and arms behind his back. During the struggle he stopped breathing. Autopsy report says death was caused by cardiac arrest during a state of excited delirium that necessitated restraint.

11. Eddie Alvarado, 32, Los Angeles

June 10, 2002

Alvarado died after being shot five times with a Taser by Los Angeles police officers in 2002. He was fighting with officers after having a seizure. The coroner said he died from a mixture of methamphetamine and cocaine while being restrained. The coroner said the stun gun could not be ruled out as a cause of death and indicated a relationship between the Taser and Alvarado's heart attack.

12. Clever Craig, 46, Mobile, Ala.

June 28, 2002

Relatives called 911 because Craig was acting strangely. Police found the 6-foot, 200-pound Craig holding a barbell. When he refused to drop it, officers shocked him twice in about 40 seconds. According to police, Craig struggled for five minutes. The autopsy report says Craig died of a heart attack during an episode of delirium "following electrical shock from Taser while resisting arrest."

13. Jason Nichols, 21, Oklahoma City, Okla.

June 15, 2002

Nichols was involved in a family fight. He struggled with police officers who shocked him with a Taser. He was taken to a hospital with various wounds from the fight and died 13 minutes later. The Cause of death was listed as head injuries. The coroner said it was extremely unlikely that the Taser played a part in the death. Drug tests were negative for all but a slight trace of marijuana.

14. Fermin Rincon, 24, Fontana, Calif.

June 27, 2002

Died after a struggle with police at a business complex. Officers reportedly shocked Rincon three times and placed him in a chokehold in order to subdue him. A coroner reported that Rincon died because of prolonged methamphetamine abuse. He suffered a cardiac arrest. An autopsy report said the cause of Rincon’s death was acute cardiac arrhythmia due to methamphetamine use.

15. Unknown male, 39, Phoenix

June 2002

An unidentified man found bleeding in the driveway of a home near 80th Avenue and Osborn Road became combative with police officers responding to a domestic violence call. Police shocked the man and put him in handcuffs. He went into cardiac arrest and died at Maryvale hospital. According to Taser International, the man had a cardiac arrest due to a drug overdose.

16. Johnney Lozoya, age unknown, Gardena, Calif.

July 19, 2002

Lozoya was seen running on the roof of a convalescent home. A few minutes later, police received reports that he was jumping on a parked car. Officers found Lozoya unconscious in the street and he was taken to a hospital, where he awoke and became combative. An officer shocked him. Several minutes later he died. An autopsy report shows Lozoya died of hypoxic encephalopathy, cardiac arrest and cocaine intoxication. But the medical examiner reported, "one cannot exclude the Taser causing the above damage to the tissues, specifically, the heart."

17. Gordon Jones, 37, Windermere, Fla.

July 19, 2002

Jones was drunk in a hotel lobby. When Orange County Sheriff's deputies ordered him to leave, he dumped his clothes from a duffle bag. He struggled with deputies who shocked him repeatedly until they were able to place him in handcuffs. He walked with deputies to an ambulance and died on the way to the hospital. A coroner reported that Jones died from positional asphyxia, suffocating while being restrained. The coroner said Taser strikes likely made it hard for Jones to breathe. Nine months later, county officials requested a second opinion, which concluded that Jones died primarily from cocaine-induced excited delirium, not from being shot 11 times.

18. Frederick Webber, 44, Orange City, Fla.

Sept. 1, 2002

A husband and father of four, Webber was involved in a fight at a campground. Police arrived and Webber refused to comply with their orders. Police say he resisted arrest and they shocked him multiple times. He was handcuffed with his hands behind his back when police realized he had stopped breathing. The autopsy report says he died of cardiac arrhythmia due to cocaine-induced agitated delirium while being restrained.

19. Stephen Edwards, 59, Shelton, Wash.

Nov. 7, 2002

Edwards fought with a store security officer and police officers attempting to arrest him on a shoplifting charge. A police officer shocked the 300-pound man four times when he reached for a gun in the waistband of his pants. After putting him in handcuffs, officers saw that Edwards had stopped breathing. A coroner said he died of a heart attack due to diabetes and obesity. The coroner said Taser was not a factor.

20. Unknown male, 31, Albuquerque, New Mexico

March 16, 2003

Officers were called about a man jumping on parked cars and breaking windows. He resisted arrest and fought with police, who used chemical spray, a baton and a Taser to subdue him. The suspect died after being arrested. According to Taser International, the man died of drugs and ethanol intoxication. Taser reports that toxicology tests showed amphetamines, cocaine and marijuana.

21. Terrance Hanna, 51, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada

April 19, 2003

Hanna barged into a hotel holding a knife and hammer. A Burnaby Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer shot him with a Taser. His heart stopped. An autopsy report has not been released. The British Columbia Coroners Service has scheduled an inquiry into Hanna's death for December. Taser International says preliminary reports indicate Hanna died of a cocaine overdose. A coroner reported that Hanna’s death was caused by acute cocaine intoxication and heart disease. The coroner also listed police restraint as a contributing factor in the death, but focused on the way officers hog-tied Hanna.

22. Joshua Hollander, 22, Normal Heights, Calif.

May 10, 2003

He stabbed his ex-girlfriend to death and then slashed his wrists. Police found him in the bathroom. Despite his wounds, he struggled with police who used a carotid restraint and shocked him with a Taser. He was pronounced dead at the hospital. Autopsy report lists cause of death as suicide. Coroner says he died as a result of a cardiac arrest due to slashed wrists. The coroner says the carotid restraint and Taser did not contribute to death and notes Hollander continued to talk 30 minutes after being shocked.

23. Timothy Sleet, 44, Springfield, Mo.

June 9, 2003

Police responded to a 911 call from a child saying her father was killing her mother. Sleet had stabbed his wife to death after she stabbed him with a kitchen knife. Police said he refused to obey commands. They used Taser, beanbag gun, baton, chemical spray and then piled on top of him in an attempt to subdue him. He lost consciousness and died. A coroner said Sleet died from a cardiac arrest from stress while officers tried to restrain him. The coroner said Sleet was in a state of psychosis due to PCP intoxication.

24. Clay Willey, 33, Prince George, British Columbia

July 22, 2003

Willey died after an altercation at a mall. Police, who said Wiley was exhibiting strange behavior, shot him with a Taser while trying to get him into an ambulance. He died 16 hour later. A jury at a coroner's inquest ruled that Willey died as the result of an accidental cocaine overdose. The jury also recommended that Royal Canadian Mounted Police give serious consideration to a report looking at Taser use that calls for standardized training and reporting.

25. Troy Nowell, 51, Amarillo, Texas

Aug. 4, 2003

Police said Nowell assaulted two elderly women and a man outside of a union hall. When police arrived, Nowell resisted arrest and was shocked multiple times. City officials said an autopsy report cleared the Taser as a cause of death. They said Nowell had a heart attack during a violent struggle. They said it was due to arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease. A grand jury cleared officers.

26. John Thompson, 45, Carrollton Township, Mich.

Aug. 8, 2003

Became violent during a card game with friends. Police were called. They shocked him multiple times with a Taser. He was taken to jail where he struggled with officers. Later, while in an isolation cell, Johnson seemed unresponsive. He was taken to a hospital and later died. A coroner said Thompson's death was not a result of physical force but said the cause of death was unknown.

27. Gordon Rauch, 39, Citrus Heights, Calif.

Aug. 17, 2003

Rauch's father called to report that his son was threatening to kill him. Police officers said Rauch charged at them. Two officers shot him with Tasers. He fell to the ground and went limp as officers put him in cuffs. He died about an hour later. The autopsy report is unavailable. Police said Rauch's prescribed psychotropic drugs might have contributed to his death.

28. Ray Austin, 25, Gwinnett, Ga.

Sept. 24, 2003

Austin was incarcerated and awaiting trial on a parole violation when he got into a scuffle with a deputy at the Gwinnet County Jail. He bit off a portion of the deputy's ear and was shocked three times with a Taser. He was restrained in a chair and given psychotropic drugs. He lost consciousness and died. Austin had a history of mental illness. A preliminary autopsy could not determine the cause of death. A coroner reported that physical restraint might have impaired breathing.

29. Glenn Leyba, 37, Glendale, Colo.

Sept. 29, 2003

Police were called to Leyba's apartment by firefighters who said he was out of control. When Leyba refused medical treatment, a police officer shot him with a Taser. Police said he was on the ground and kicking and thrashing at officers, who shocked Leyba repeatedly. He stopped breathing. Autopsy report lists cause of death as a cardiac arrest during cocaine-induced agitated delirium. Coroner said the Taser is not a contributing factor.

30. Clark Whitehouse, 34, Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada

Sept. 2003

Royal Canadian Mounted police reported that Whitehorse fled on foot while attempting to swallow drugs. Police officers used a Taser to subdue him A short time later, he appeared to be having trouble breathing. He was pronounced dead at the hospital. Yukon Coroner's Service is not making the autopsy public. An inquest is pending.

31. Roman Pierson, 40, Brea, Calif.

Oct. 7, 2003

Pierson was shocked twice after running through traffic and breaking into an ice machine at a supermarket. He had been complaining that he was hot and thirsty. Four police officers ordered Pierson to lie down and shocked him when he refused. Police said he took a fighting stance. The autopsy report lists cause of death as cardiac arrest due to acute methamphetamine intoxication. Notes coronary artery disease.

32. Dennis Hammond, 31, Oklahoma City, Okla.

Oct. 11, 2003

Hammond was walking down the street screaming at the sky. When police arrived, he was perched on a brick mailbox. When officers approached, he would scream at them. Officer shot Hammond three times with a beanbag shotgun and five times with a Taser. After being handcuffed, he turned blue and stopped breathing. The autopsy report lists cause of death as acute methamphetamine intoxication. The coroner said the beanbags and Taser shocks were significant but did not have an immediate role in Hammond's death.

33. Louis Morris, 50, Orlando, Fla.

Oct. 21, 2003

Morris drove erratically through the parking lot of a supermarket. When approached by store security officers, he said a passenger in the van needed medical attention but nobody else was in the van. He went into the store and started yelling. When officers arrived, he fled to a nearby convenience store where police shot him with a Taser. After he was handcuffed, the man started banging his head on the ground. Officers turned him over and saw he was in distress. The autopsy report lists cause of death as cocaine excited delirium, a sudden collapse from cardiac arrhythmia brought on by restraint. A pre-existing heart disease contributed.

34. James Borden, 47, Monroe County, Ind.

Nov. 6, 2003

On the eve of his father's funeral, Borden was arrested on a minor violation. Although officers were supposed to transport him to a hospital, he was taken to jail instead. Upon arrival at the jail, Borden did not follow commands of jailers. He was first shot with a Taser for initially refusing to pull up his pants. A jailer shocked him repeatedly until he collapsed and died. The autopsy report lists cause of death as a heart attack due to an enlarged heart, pharmacologic intoxication and electrical shocks from Taser. The jailer who shocked Borden has been charged with two counts of felony battery, including battery while armed with a deadly weapon.

35. Michael Johnson, 32, Oklahoma City, Okla.

Nov. 10, 2003

Officers responding to a burglary call found Johnson sitting in a chair. When he did not respond, they shocked him with a Taser. Officers said Johnson began struggling after being shocked. He was shocked multiple times and two minutes later he stopped breathing and went into cardiac arrest. He was placed on a ventilator and died 22 hours later. Autopsy lists cause of death as acute congestive heart failure due to cocaine-induced sudden cardiac arrest. The coroner said it appears to be a case of agitated delirium. He said the drugs caused the heart attack, not the restraint.

36. Kerry O'Brien, 31, Pembroke Pines, Fla.

Nov. 11, 2003

O'Brien was banging on cars in an intersection. Police shocked him with a Taser. He was hogtied before dying. A coroner determined that O'Brien died as a result of being hogtied, saying he was a victim of positional asphyxia, meaning he suffocated while being restrained. The coroner ruled the death as accidental. The coroner also concluded that Taser did not contribute to O'Brien's death. The case is being investigated by the Broward State Attorney's office.

37. Curtis Lawson, 40, Unadilla, Ga.

Dec. 9, 2003

Lawson confronted a woman at a gas station then fled to a hotel room. When police asked him to come out he refused. Police entered the hotel room and Lawson struggled with officers, who shocked him twice with a Taser and sprayed him with pepper spray. He died about 15 minutes after being arrested. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation concluded that Lawson died from acute cocaine toxicity. An enlarged heart contributed to his death.

38. Lewis King, 39, St. Augustine, Fla.

Dec. 9, 2003

King fled deputies who stopped his car over a broken taillight and began questioning him about a pill bottle. In attempting to get away, police say he dragged a deputy with his car. Officers shocked him twice with a Taser. He was subdued after a struggle and secured face down. He went into full cardiac arrest and was pronounced dead at the hospital. The autopsy report lists cause of death as cardiac arrest following prone restraint by police. King had a history of heart disease and an enlarged heart.

39. David Glowczenski, 35, Southampton Village, N.Y.

Feb. 4, 2004

Glowczenski, who had a history of mental illness and had been twice institutionalized, was shouting and wandering two blocks from his home. When officers approached, he began struggling. Officer sprayed Glowczenski with chemical spray and shocked him multiple times with a Taser. Glowczenski kicked and screamed even after he was placed on his stomach with his hands cuffed behind his back. He suddenly stopped and died. A preliminary autopsy was unable to determine the cause of death. A Suffolk County medical examiner said Glowczenski died from exhaustive mania due to schizophrenia.

40. Raymond Siegler, 40, Minneapolis, Minn.

Feb. 12, 2004

Siegler was living in a group home for the mentally ill. While celebrating his engagement, Siegler consumed some alcohol and created a disturbance. Police were called because Siegler reportedly threatened other residents. Siegler, who suffered from paranoia, panicked when he saw police. Officers shocked him multiple times with a Taser. He suffered a cardiac arrest. Siegler's family says he went into cardiac arrest immediately after being shocked and remained in a coma until they removed life support about a week after the incident. The autopsy report has not been released.

41. Curt Rostengale, 44, Silverdale, Wash.

Feb. 21, 2004

Rostengale was shocked twice with a Taser during a struggle with police at his apartment. Police say Rostengale was breaking glass and banging on door of the complex. An officer ordered Rostengale to stop and shocked him with a Taser when he refused. He continued struggling with officers and was shocked again. A coroner reported that Rostengale died as a result of cocaine abuse and said Taser was not a factor.

42. William Lomax, 26, Las Vegas, Nev.

Feb. 21, 2004

Lomax died after being shocked multiple times during a struggle with police and private security at a public housing complex. A jury at a coroner's inquest ruled that the Taser contributed his death. The Clark County Coroner says the death raises questions about the way Tasers are used. Lomax was high on PCP, a stimulant known for its ability to spark aggression. The coroner said multiple Taser bursts prevented Lomax from being able to breathe and ultimately contributed to a cardiac arrest. Doctors could not say if Lomax would have died if the Taser had not been used.

43. Perry Ronald, 28, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

March 23, 2004

Ronald suffered a head injury during a fight at a friend's house. Afterward, police were called about a man jumping on cars and blocking traffic. It took several officers, who shocked Ronald with a Taser, to place him in custody. He was transported to a hospital to have his head injury examined and suffered a heart attack. He died a week later. A preliminary autopsy could not determine the cause of death. The autopsy report is unavailable.

44. Terry Williams, 45, Madison, Ill.

March 28, 2004

Police, responding to a domestic violence call, shocked Williams when he refused to follow commands and resisted arrest. He was placed in a police car and transported to the police station where he was found to be unresponsive. A preliminary autopsy did not reveal the cause of death.

45. Phillip LaBlanc, 36, Los Angeles, Calif.

April 1, 2005

A security guard reported that LaBlanc was acting strangely. The guard persuaded LaBlanc to sit by the curb and handcuffed him to a chain-link fence. When police arrived, LeBlanc became aggressive. Although he was still handcuffed to the fence, officers shocked him at least twice with a Taser to subdue him. He became unresponsive, stopped breathing and was pronounced dead at the hospital. A coroner reported in an autopsy that LeBlanc died of excited delirium and cocaine intoxication.

46. Melvin Samuel, 28, Savannah, Ga.

April 16, 2004

Samuel called police to report a burglary. He was subsequently arrested on a warrant for failing to pay a traffic ticket and taken to a Houston County jail. Jail officials said he was uncooperative and were forced to shock Samuel twice with Taser while moving him out of a holding cell. About 10 minutes later, Samuel became unresponsive. An autopsy found that Samuel asphyxiated after being hog-tied on his stomach. A Georgia Bureau of Investigation autopsy report said the Taser was not a factor in the death.

47. Alfredo Diaz, 29, Orange County, Fla.

April 18, 2004

Sheriff's Deputies were responding to a 911 call about a man running naked in the street. Diaz's brother also called 911 and reported that someone had slipped acid into his drink and that he was going crazy. Deputies approached Alfredo Diaz and tried to calm and restrain him. Diaz reportedly struggled with deputies and threatened to kill them. Deputies sprayed him with pepper spray and then shocked him with a Taser. After he was handcuffed, Diaz started having problems breathing. He was taken to a hospital where he died. A coroner in an autopsy report said that Taser contributed to Diaz's death. The coroner said Diaz died from LSD-induced psychosis with hyperthermia. "A contributing significant condition is that he was subdued by police with a struggle and Tazed."

48. Eric Wolle, 45, Washington Grove, Md.

April 27, 2004

Diagnosed as a bipolar schizophrenic, Wolle panicked when he saw a car stop outside his house. Believing that nameless agents were coming to get him, he fled his house and his mother called police. Officers stopped Wolle, who was carrying a machete in the waistband of his pants and ordered him to the ground. Wolle refused and officers shocked him twice with a Taser. He continued to struggle then lost consciousness. A preliminary autopsy found Wolle died of cardiac arrhythmia during a state of psychosis. Police said Taser shocks did not contribute to his death.

49. Roman Andreichik, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

May 1, 2004

Shocked during a struggle with police at an apartment. He died shortly after being shocked. His death is under investigation. The autopsy report has not been released.

50. Peter Lamonday, 38, London, Ontario, Canada

May 13, 2004

Police received complaints that Lamonday, a landscape worker, was breaking windows and doors of businesses. When police confronted him, Lamonday reportedly swung at officers, who sprayed him with chemical spray and punched him. Seven officers forced Lamonday to the ground and he was shocked several times with a Taser. He stopped breathing about 20 minutes after being placed in handcuffs. A probe by a police watchdog group concluded that Lamonday died of cocaine-induced delirium and said the Taser was not to blame. A coroner also reported that Taser was not involved in the death.

51. Henry Lattarulo, 40, Hillsborough County, Fla.

May 22, 2004

Sheriff's deputies were called to a trailer park on a report that a man was trying to stab people with a screwdriver. They reportedly found Lattarulo fighting with a friend. He refused to follow commands and officers shocked him with a Taser. He reportedly pulled the barbs out and kept fighting. Deputies restrained him, placed him in handcuffs and leg restraints and Lattarulo stopped breathing. The Hillsborough County Medical Examiner's Office determined that the death was caused by cocaine-induced excited delirium.

52. Frederick Williams, 31, Lawrenceville, Ga.

May 27, 2004

Williams died after being shocked with a Taser at the Gwinnett County Jail. The computer technician, who had epilepsy, was acting strangely when police officers responded to a domestic violence call at his house. He was shocked during a struggle with jail officers and died a shot time later. A coroner said he died of brain damage from a heart attack, but the cause of the heart attack could not be determined. The coroner said there is no evidence that five shocks from a Taser caused or contributed to Williams' death.

53. Darryl Smith, 46, Atlanta

May 30, 2004

Smith was found unresponsive in the street and became violent with paramedics who responded to help him. A sheriff's deputy used a Taser to subdue him, shocking Smith multiple times. Smith died about six hours later. A coroner says his death was caused by agitated delirium associated with acute cocaine poisoning.

54. Anthony Oliver, 42, Orlando, Fla.

May 31, 2004

Oliver stopped a police officer by banging on the back window of her patrol car. He told her people were pursuing him and going to shoot him. When officers attempted to talk to Oliver and move him out of traffic, he began struggling. Police reported that he attempted to pull the officer into traffic. An officer shocked him with a Taser. Oliver fell to the ground but got back up, and the officer shocked him seven more times. Oliver began foaming at the mouth and was taken to a hospital where he died. The coroner reported that Oliver died from cocaine-induced excited delirium.

55. Jerry Pickens, 55, Bridge City, La.

June 4, 2004

Police shocked Pickens while responding to a domestic violence call at his house. Pickens refused to comply with orders not to go back into his house. After being shocked, Pickens fell backwards and hit his head on his driveway. He went into a coma and died about a week later. A coroner said he died as a result of a brain hemorrhage because of the fall.

56. James Cobb, 42, St. Paul, Minn.

June 9, 2004

Two days after being released from prison on a robbery conviction, Cobb was walking in the middle of a rain-swept street shouting at motorists. Police ordered him out of the street and Cobb became combative. Officers sprayed him with chemical spray, shocked him multiple times with a Taser and hit him with a baton. He collapsed on the street and died. A preliminary autopsy report said he did not die as a result of blunt force trauma.

57. Jacob Lair, 26, Sparks, Nev.

June 9, 2004

Officers were attempting to question Lair at his home when the convicted robber and burglar became combative. Police sprayed Lair with chemical spray and shocked him with a Taser. He collapsed and died. The autopsy report shows he died of acute methamphetamine intoxication. A coroner says he suffered cardiac arrhythmia during a struggle with police involving Taser, pepper spray and restraints.

58. Robert Bagnell, 44, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

June 23, 2004

Police responding to a disturbance at a rooming house found Bagnell frenzied and destroying a washroom. Police shot him with a Taser and he stopped breathing and died at the scene. Police did not disclose the details surrounding Bagnell's death for more than a month while waiting for toxicology reports. A preliminary autopsy could not determine the cause of death. A coroner said Bagnell might have had a lethal level of cocaine in his system.

59. Kris Lieberman, 32, Bushkill Twp., Penn.

June 24, 2004

Lieberman was found naked in a cornfield, crawling around and talking to himself. Officers said Lieberman lunged at them when they attempted to talk to him. They shocked him with a stun gun three times until he lost consciousness. Officers tried to revive him but he was pronounced dead a short time later. A medical examiner reported that Lieberman had high levels of cocaine in his system. The medical examiner also said the exertion of Lieberman’s fight with police – including shocks from a Taser and restraint – contributed to his death.

60. Bernard Christmas, 36, Dayton, Ohio

June 2004

Police responded to reports that Christmas was running in circles in the middle of the street. When police arrived, the man reportedly jumped in the front seat of a patrol car. When police tried to remove the man from the car, he struggled and an officer shot him in the chest with a Taser. He stopped breathing and was transported to a hospital where he died. A coroner said the cause of death was a cardiac arrest due to cocaine-induced excited delirium.

61. Demetrius Tillman Nelson, 45, Okaloosa County, Fla.

July 3, 2004

Nelson got into an argument with his girlfriend after their car overheated in a parking lot. When police arrived, Nelson was argumentative and combative; a struggle ensued and officers shocked him multiple times with a Taser. He reportedly talked to officers but developed trouble breathing. He was taken to a hospital where he died. The coroner reported that Nelson's death was caused by cocaine-associated excited delirium.

62. Willie Smith, 48, Auburn, Wash.

July 11, 2004

Smith's wife called 911 and said her husband had assaulted her. Police arrived at Smith's apartment and ordered him to the floor. They said Smith refused and came at them. Two officers shocked him with Tasers. They arrested him and put him in a patrol car where he went into cardiac arrest. Smith's reportedly told police that her husband was on a cocaine binge. The autopsy report is unavailable.

63. Jerry Knight, 29, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

July 17, 2004

Knight, a former semi-professional boxer, reportedly tore up a hotel room in a fit of rage. Police arrived and shocked Knight with a Taser when he refused to comply with their orders. He was pronounced dead upon arrival at the hospital. According to police, Knight died of asphyxia while being restrained by police. Police reported that Knight was on cocaine and suffering from excited delirium. Police also reported that a forensic pathologist concluded that the Taser was not a factor in the death. An inquest has been scheduled to look into his death.

64. Milton Salazar, 29, Mesa

July 23, 2004

Hours after Salazar was released from the state prison on July 21, police said he reportedly threw rocks at motorists on Dobson Road then entered a convenience store and threw candy bars at the clerk. When an officer tried to arrest him, Salazar lay on the floor with his hands underneath his body and refused to obey commands. Officers shocked Salazar multiple times and when they rolled him over, he immediately turned white. Salazar was taken to Banner Desert Medical Center, where he died two days later. Police say chemical tests showed he had cocaine in his system. The medical examiner found that Salazar died of complications from excited delirium due to cocaine intoxication. The autopsy report said the shocks from Taser and the stress of his struggle with police contributed to Salazar's death.

65. Keith Tucker, 47, Las Vegas

Aug 2, 2004

Tucker's roommate called police saying Tucker was punching walls and talking to people not in the room. Police arrived and found Tucker sitting on his bed. They reported that Tucker punched and kicked officers as they approached. Officers shocked him with Tasers and placed him in handcuffs. Police reported that Tucker started having trouble breathing. He died at the hospital. The cause of death has not been determined. The autopsy report is unavailable.

66. Samuel Truscott, 43, Kingston, Ontario, Canada

Aug. 8, 2004

Truscott reportedly overdosed on drugs and barricaded himself in a bedroom where he was armed with a knife and a bat. Police attempted to use chemical spray and when it didn't have any affect, they shocked Truscott with a Taser. Police said Truscott walked unaided to a police car and was taken to hospital where he suffered a suffered a seizure and died. Ontario's coroner said death was due to a drug overdose. He said the Taser was not to blame in any way. The autopsy report is unavailable.

67. Ernest Blackwell, 29, St. Louis, Mo.

Aug. 11, 2004

Blackwell, a former University of Missouri football star, went on a rampage, shooting his stepdaughter with a shotgun and beating a teenage neighbor girl and her mother. Officers said the 230-pound, six-foot-three Blackwell attempted to grab an officer's gun during a struggle in which he was shocked twice with a Taser. Paramedics sedated him and Blackwell died on the way to the hospital. A coroner concluded that he died as a result of agitated delirium.

68. David Riley, 41, Joplin, Mo.

Aug. 11, 2004

Riley threatened to commit suicide and barricaded himself in a house. He had pulled a gas line from the back of the stove and turned on the valve, filling the house with gas. Riley was outside, but when two police officers arrived he started to run back inside. One of the officers deployed a Taser. The house subsequently exploded, killing Riley and wounding the two officers. Police are investigating what sparked the explosion. A Taser was recovered from the wreckage of the house.

69. Anthony Lee McDonald, 46, Harrisburg, N.C.

Aug. 13, 2004

McDonald's mother called 911 to report her son was damaging his home. When police arrived, McDonald was breaking out the windows. Two officers entered and McDonald became aggressive. The officers shot him twice with a beanbag round and then wrestled with him. They shocked him with a Taser and he immediately had difficulty breathing. He died shortly after arriving at the hospital. The autopsy report is unavailable.

70. William Teasley, 31, Anderson, S.C.

Aug 16, 2004

Teasley was arrested for disorderly conduct. Deputies say he became violent while they tried to book him into jail. During a struggle, deputies shocked Teasley with a Taser. He stopped breathing. The coroner said Taser contributed directly to Teasley's death, saying it was the proverbial last straw. The coroner said his heart, spleen and liver were enlarged, he had hardened arteries and an obstructed airway. "The added stress of Taser shock with its electrical current was proximal to the cardiac arrhythmia and must be considered contributory," the autopsy report states. The coroner says officials with Taser International asked his office to reverse its ruling and leave the Taser out of the autopsy report.

71. Richard Karlo, 44, Denver, Colo.

Aug. 19, 2004

Karlo was frothing at the mouth and breaking into cars when police stopped him. He reportedly attacked two officers who shocked him four times with a Taser. Karlo started having trouble breathing and then died. Karlo's family reported that he had a heart condition and was taking cocaine when he encountered police. A coroner said Karlo died of a cocaine and antidepressant overdose. The coroner said Karlo was in a state of agitated delirium when he died. The coroner said Taser was not a factor in the death. The autopsy report lists cause of death as acute cocaine and nortriptyline toxicity.

72. Michael Sanders, 40, Fresno, Calif.

Aug. 20, 2004

Police said Sanders was struggling with his wife when they shocked him several times with a Taser. They said the musician was delusional and stabbed an officer several times with an unknown object. He was handcuffed, put on a gurney and transported to the hospital. He died in the ambulance. The coroner's office said an autopsy revealed that Sanders died of complications related to cocaine intoxication. The autopsy report lists cause of death from complications of cocaine intoxication.

73. Lawrence Davis, 27, Phoenix

Aug. 24, 2004

Police say Davis jumped on the windshield of a patrol car and began yelling incoherently. Officers followed the man as he walked away from the car and rounded a corner. When he spotted police, the man again ran toward the vehicle and jumped on the bumper before officers attempted to detain him. Davis pushed the officers and an officer shocked him with a stun gun. Officers brought Davis to the ground and shocked him twice more. Police said the stun-gun shots had no effect, so a sergeant used a chokehold to temporarily knock the man unconscious. Paramedics were called. Davis died at the hospital. The medical examiner said Davis died as a result of excited delirium.

74. Jason Yeagley, 32, Winter Haven, Fla.

Aug. 27, 2004

Yeagley was wandering in the road and acting strangely. Police say when an officer tried to escort him out of the road, Yeagley attacked. The officer shocked Yeagley with a Taser. He continued struggling and was shocked again. Police said he was still fighting with the officer. After putting him in handcuffs, officers noticed Yeagley was in distress. He was pronounced dead at the hospital. A coroner reported that Yeagley died as a result withdrawal from the drug Xanax and a struggle with a deputy. The coroner said the Taser was not a factor in the death.

75. Michael Rosa, 38, Del Rey Oaks, Calif.

Aug. 29, 2004

Rosa was wandering through yards and screaming. When police approached, he picked up a 2x4 piece of wood and swung it at officers. Police shocked him with a Taser. After being handcuffed. Rosa started having difficulty breathing. He was pronounced dead at the hospital. Rosa had a 2003 arrest for cocaine possession. The coroner said Rosa died of a heart attack from methamphetamine intoxication. But he listed Taser as a contributing factor in the death. The coroner says the Taser shock and the struggle with police combined with the drugs led to Rosa's death.

76. Samuel Wakefield, 22, Rio Vista, Texas

Sept. 12, 2004

Wakefield was reportedly a passenger in a car stopped by police for suspicion of drunken driving. He tried to run and fell. An officer shocked him twice with a Taser. Wakefield appeared to have a cardiac arrest. Paramedics were called and he was pronounced dead at a local hospital. Witnesses told police Wakefield had ingested a large amount of cocaine about an hour before the traffic stop. An autopsy report said Wakefield died from cocaine intoxication.

77. Andrew Washington, 21, Vallejo, Calif.

Sept. 15, 2004

Police say Washington stole a car and was involved in a hit-and-run accident. An officer shot him with a Taser as he tried to climb a fence to run away. After being arrested, police say Washington showed signs of physical distress and was having difficulty breathing. Emergency crews were called to the scene. He was taken to a hospital where he died. An autopsy report concluded that Washington died from a cardiac arrest brought on by the excitement of the police chase and restraint. Cocaine was found in his system.

78. Jon Merkle, 40, Miami

Sept. 20, 2004

Merkle, an attorney with a history of cocaine use and drug arrests, was reportedly running through backyards and acting erratically. Police say they found him inside an abandoned house, where he was beating the walls and windows with a large stick. Officers were able to get him to drop the stick, but when they say Merkle started swinging when they attempted to arrest him. They shocked him with a Taser. Officers reported that he was feverish and excited and repeatedly attempted to lie down. Once on his stomach, he stopped breathing. Police say he had significant levels of cocaine in his system at the time of his death. An autopsy report lists cause of death as excited delirium associated with cocaine intoxication.

79. Dwayne Dunn, 33, Lafayette, La.

Oct. 4, 2004

Dunn was arrested outside of a Piggly Wiggly store for public intoxication. An officer tried to talk Dunn into leaving the property and when he refused, the officer shocked him with a Taser. Dunn was taken to jail and booked on charges of resisting arrest, disturbing the peace and for misrepresentation. Jail officials later put Dunn on a medical watch. An ambulance was called when his condition deteriorated. He died at the hospital. A corner reported that Dunn died from cocaine poisoning. He said Taser was not a factor in Dunn’s death.

80. Greshmond Gray, 25, LaGrange, Ga.

Nov. 2, 2004

Gray reportedly refused to leave an apartment and police were called. Officers shocked him when he would not follow orders to put his hands behind his back. Officers reported that he bent down to pick up a hibachi loaded with hot coals. He was shocked at least two more times for attempting to run away. After the shocks, Gray became unresponsive. Police reported that Gray had previous arrests for cocaine possession. A coroner reported that Gray had an abnormal heart. The coroner said the emotional and physical stress Gray underwent during the struggle with police, including being shocked with a Taser, led to the lethal heart rhythm.

81. Robert Guerrero, 21, Fort Worth, Texas

Nov. 2, 2004

A father of two, Guerrero fled from police after an apartment manager reported that he was trying steal electricity for a friend's apartment. Guerrero reportedly tried to hide in a closet. When he wouldn't come out officers shocked him at least twice. Witnesses said they noticed he wasn't breathing as officers carried him out of the apartment. He was pronounced dead at a local hospital. The Medical Examiner’s Office said Guerrero died from heart failure due to cocaine overdose.

82. Keith Raymond Drum, Clearlake, Calif.

Nov. 7, 2004

Drum called 911 and reportedly talked about bodies being placed in the trunk of a car. Officer responding found that Drum had a warrant for his arrest. Officers said Drum charged them when they entered his house. Drum was sprayed with chemical spray and shocked with a Taser. He continued fighting and more officers were called to the scene. He was eventually placed in handcuffs. Shortly after, drum stopped breathing. A coroner reported that Drum's death was the result of cardiac arrest brought on by methamphetamine intoxication, existing heart disease and his struggle with officers.

83. Ricardo Zaragoza, 40, Elk Grove, Calif.

Nov. 8, 2004

Zaragoza, a paranoid schizophrenic, was shocked during a struggle with sheriff's deputies who were attempting to take him to the hospital for a mental health exam. Zaragoza's parents called police for help after their son exhibited strange behavior. Although Zaragoza reportedly had been taking his medication, he hadn't eaten for several days. Officers entered his bedroom, shocked him at least twice with a Taser, sprayed him with pepper spray and pinned him to the ground. He stopped breathing. A medical examiner reported Zaragoza died from a heart attack brought on by excited delirium and schizophrenia.

84. Charles Keiser, 47, Hartland Township, Mich.

Nov. 25, 2004

Keiser took a bulldozer from a road construction site and moved it onto a highway. When state police officers arrived, he was reportedly trying to start a backhoe and move it onto the highway. Keiser fled and police chased him into some woods. During a scuffle with the officers, Keiser reportedly grabbed one by the throat. Four sheriff's deputies arrived. Keiser was shocked three times with a Taser and stopped breathing at the scene. A coroner ruled that his death was due to drowning.

85. Byron Black, 39, Lee County, Fla.

Nov. 27, 2004

Black died in a struggle with guards trying to remove him from a Lee County jail cell. Black, an insurance salesman, had been arrested four days earlier for allegedly setting his own van on fire. The sheriff's office reported that deputies believed Black was having a seizure and tried to take him out of the cell for medical attention. Black began to fight and kick. He was sprayed him with pepper spray and shocked with a Taser.

86. Patrick Fleming, 35, Metairie, La.

Dec. 4, 2004

Sheriff's deputies stopped Fleming around 1 a.m. for driving erratically. When he refused to get out of his vehicle, deputies dragged him out. Officers said Fleming became combative. Fleming, who had prior drug charges and was wanted on a warrant of criminal neglect of family, was shocked once with a Taser before being taken into custody. While being booked, officers say Fleming again became combative. He was shocked a second time. His started having trouble breathing and died the next day.

87. Kevin Downing, 36, Hollywood, Fla.

Dec. 15, 2004

A fire-rescue crew found Downing's van blocking traffic on a Hollywood Street. When they tried to help Downing, he became agitated and acted strangely. Police reported that when officers arrived he became violent. An officer shot Downing with her Taser, but police said he continued to fight. He was shocked again and police officers tackled him to the ground. Downing died about two hours later at a hospital. An autopsy found that Downing died as a result of cocaine psychosis and excited delirium due to a lethal dose of cocaine.

88. Douglas Meldrum, 37, Wasatch County, Utah

Dec. 17, 2004.

Meldrum was shocked twice by police after he lead them on a chase and then resisted arrest. Police said Meldrum punched one officer as they attempted to remove him from his truck. He was shocked twice. Police say that he immediately stopped breathing and was taken to a hospital where he was pronounced dead. The county attorney reported that Meldrum died of heart failure because of agitated delirium and a high concentration of ephedrine. The county attorney also reported that Taser might have contributed to Meldrum's death.

89. Lyle Nelson, 35, Columbia, Ill.

Dec. 17, 2004

Police responded to an emergency call at Nelson's home. Police did not immediately report what the call was about, but said Nelson struggled with officers at the scene. He was shocked eight times with a Taser, placed in custody and taken to the county jail. He collapsed about 90 minutes later and was taken to a hospital where he died. He was married with three children. A coroner reported that he died from a cocaine overdose. Police reported that Nelson admitted to smoking crack and had a history of cocaine abuse.

90. Timothy Bolander, 31, Delray Beach, Fla.

Dec. 23, 2004

Bolander's wife called police when he showed up at her house in violation of a restraining order. When officers arrived, they say he was banging his head against a fence. He struggled with officers and they shocked him four times with a Taser. He collapsed and was pronounced dead at a hospital. A coroner reported that he died of accidental cocaine toxicity after swallowing four bags of cocaine. Taser was reported not to be a factor in the death.

91. Ronnie Pino, 31, Sacramento, Calif.

Dec. 23, 2004

Pino was found dead in the medical ward of the county jail. The day before, Pino had been shocked twice with a Taser during a struggle with police after he shattered the glass door of a mental hospital. A coroner reported Pino died from "sudden unexpected death syndrome."

92. Christopher Hernandez, 19, Naples, Fla.

Dec. 28, 2004

Hernandez was a passenger in a car that sheriff's deputies attempted to pull over around 1 a.m. According to the police, the car kept driving and finally stopped in the parking lot of a convenience store. When deputies ordered the driver out of the car, Hernandez reportedly got out and attacked a deputy. Hernandez was sprayed with a chemical and shocked with a Taser. He continued struggling before deputies were able to place him in handcuffs. He was taken to a hospital and died an hour later. The 16-year-old driver of the car was arrested on an outstanding warrant. Another passenger in the car was arrested after police found a handgun under his seat.

93. Jeanne Hamilton, 46, Palmdale, Calif.

Dec. 29, 2004

California Highway Patrol attempted to stop Hamilton's car around 2:30 a.m. Officers reported that the she was driving about 90 mph then slowed and accelerated before stopping. Officers said Hamilton refused to get out of the car so the sprayed her with chemical spray and pulled her out of the car. Officers said she lay on her stomach on top of her hands and refused to show officers her hands. She was shocked and then placed in handcuffs. Officers said she continued to struggle while being booked into jail and stopped breathing after they put her in a cell. She was taken to a hospital and pronounced dead.

94. David Cooper, 40, Marion County, Ind.

Dec. 30, 2004

Cooper was incarcerated for allegedly strangling a Baptist minister that he believed to be the devil. During his Dec. 19 arrest, police shocked Cooper repeatedly with Tasers. Two days later, he was shocked in jail for injuring himself in a padded cell. On Dec. 24 he was transferred from the jail to a hospital's psychiatric ward, where he stopped breathing and was placed on a respirator. He was pronounced dead on Dec. 30. Relatives said he had a heart condition.

95. Gregory Saulsbury, 30, Pacifica, Calif.

Jan. 2, 2005

Saulsbury's family called 911 for help. Saulsbury, who was mentally ill, was agitated and his parents were trying to calm him down. Instead of paramedics, police arrived. Officers said Saulsbury was confrontational and refused to obey commands. Saulsbury's relatives reportedly told police that they had succeeded in calming him down. But officers attempted to place Saulsbury in handcuffs. He struggled and they shocked him with Tasers. During the struggle, police reportedly shocked Saulsbury's unarmed father. Saulsbury immediately stopped breathing and died. The coroner reported that Taser contributed to his death. The Taser shocks, along with cocaine intoxication and a struggle with police, all played a roll in the heart attack that killed him.

96. Dennis Hyde, 30, Akron

Jan. 5, 2005

Hyde broke into a home and when police responded, he reportedly told them he was the devil and threatened to kill the homeowners and the officers. During a struggle officers shocked him with a Taser and he died. A medical examiner said Taser contributed to the death but also cited other factors, including methamphetamines and blood loss.

97. Carl Trotter, 33, Pensacola, Fla.

Jan. 8, 2005

Trotter broke into several homes and attacked residents in a quiet neighborhood. Chased out of one residence, he reportedly picked up an elderly woman walking on the sidewalk and literally carried her, kicking and screaming, to a church parking lot. When a neighbor forced Trotter to let her go, he crashed through the glass door of another house and attacked a woman there. Sheriff's deputies and residents struggled with Trotter. More deputies arrived and one of them shocked Trotter multiple times with a Taser. According to police, Trotter continued to fight, then collapsed and died in the front yard. The coroner reported that the cause of Trotter's death was unknown and said the Taser might have contributed. "The potential effects of the Taser shocks delivered just prior to his cardio-respiratory collapse cannot be ignored," the coroner said in an autopsy report.

98. Unknown man, Chickasha, Okla.

Jan. 28, 2005

A suspect was shocked with a Taser after fleeing from a drug raid led by the FBI. A Chickasha Police officer reported that the man swallowed cocaine and then began running. The officer said he shocked him to stop him from escaping. Officers said the unnamed suspect became unresponsive and he was taken to the hospital where he died.

99. Jeffrey Turner, 41, Lucas County, Ohio

Jan. 31, 2005

Turner was loitering outside of a Toledo museum when Toledo Police officers approached him and asked for identification. Officers said Turner resisted when they attempted to search him. During a struggle he was shocked repeatedly with a Taser. Once placed in custody, he was taken to the Lucas County Corrections Center. At the center, sheriff's deputies said he became combative. They went into his cell and used a Taser multiple times to subdue him. Turner died. Taser use has been suspended inside the jail. The Lucas County Coroner ruled that the Taser use contributed to Turner's death, and classified the case as a homicide. Turner had been stunned with a Taser a total of nine times. The coroner also reported that Turner's own cardiac condition was the main cause of his death.

100. Ronald Alan Hasse, 54, Chicago

Feb. 10, 2005

Hasse was shocked by police during a confrontation at a Chicago apartment. He had been visiting friends, who asked him to leave when he started acting strange and lost control of himself. Chicago police reported that he tried to kick and bite an officer and threatened to infect officers with HIV. After warning Hasse to calm down, a police sergeant shocked him with a Taser. Hasse was a former Chicago securities trader who was supposed to go on trial in June for burying a body on an Indiana farm. A medical examiner said that Taser was the primary cause of death. He said drugs contributed to Hasse’s death, but ruled that shocks from the Taser “pushed him over the edge,” causing cardiac arrest.


Cases 101 and beyond
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
59. I'm no proponent of Tasers, as all my other posts on this
subject will attest. They are often abused and should never be used in a case where force isn't necessary.

But this case, IF the facts are as the police have reported, may be one of the more justified cases. A 200 pound boy had jumped on an 85 pound girl and was pounding her on the face and head. He could have broken her jaw, or her facial bones, or given her a concussion. The police woman there was only five feet tall and 140 pounds. I'm a lot taller than she and I know I wouldn't be able to restrain an angry, out of control, 200 pound boy.

The old fashioned alternative would have been for her to give him a crack with her baton. Would you have preferred that? The thing is, there wasn't time to call in for reinforcements. The boy was hitting another child half his size. Something had to be done quickly.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
103. jury is still out on cause and relative death rates.

Tasers may be contributing to deaths of people whose health are already in jeopardy (e.g., high as a kite, heart problems, etc), but its not clear that these people wouldn't have sustained severe injury or death if physical force had been used. Choke holds, incapacitation holds, jujular holds can lead to deaths too.

And then there is the issue of injuries and deaths of police officers who attempt to subdue bad guys wit physical force.

Again, I'm just saying that listing a some deaths that are associated with tasers is not is only the beginnig of your argument, not the end.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #103
113. It may simply be a list to you, but they were individuals to their families, loved ones
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 04:00 PM by shance
You would be willing to be tasered yourself and see what happens to your heart?

We can't see what is happening internally can we?
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. My point is that we aren't they wouldn't have died from other uses of force when

arresting, subduing, or forcing compliance?

The mechanism of death is not clear from these taser involved deaths. In principle, the shock shouldn't be interfering with the electrical signals to the heart or the heart muscles.

Clearly, the cops didn't want the people dead as they chose to taser instead of shoot with lead.

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #114
128. Its been known for years stun guns/tasers kill. It's a fact.
Tasers need to be outlawed because of the internal damage being inflicted on the victim is not revealed on the outer body. That is why it is so prone for abuse.

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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #128
141. I look forward to a medical reference demonstrating the mechanism of death by taser.

Seriously.
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #113
124. There were 45 toaster related deaths last year alone..
perhaps we should ban toasters too. :shrug:
I feel for the families, they have my sympathy, but 167 taser-related deaths over 6 years is not what I consider a significant "threat". In fact, compared with other methods tasering is relatively safe.
And I can tell you that if a 200 pound kid is beating on my daughter, he'd better hope ALL I do is taser him.
Do I support tasering? In a case like this you're damned right I do.

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. Cite them. Don't just claim there were 45 toaster deaths. Cite them please.
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 05:47 PM by shance
n/t
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #125
131. here's a link.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. I can't tell if that's a joke or not.
Dr. Jack Snow at Aaron Burr hospital?

It's interesting to say the least.

It also doesnt cite the 45 deaths you mentioned.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #113
150. What about the 85 pound sixth grade girl who was getting her
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 11:19 PM by pnwmom
face and head punched? Shouldn't the idea have been to get her out of the situation, as quickly as possible?

This isn't like one of those Taser uses on nonviolent subjects, or people in diabetic shock, or on epileptics having seizures, etc. In general, I'm against the use of Tasers, but in this case it might have been the lesser of evils. What should the five foot tall police woman have done? Club him on the head with her baton? Try to grab him and have this 200 pound kid take a swing a her?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
60. You were right the first time. There wasn't time to get the
boys gym teacher to handle it. Something had to be done to stop the boy immediately. He was hitting her about the face and head.

The fight began as a verbal argument in the lunchroom. The kids were brought into the office to resolve the dispute, which was about the boy grabbing food off the girl's tray (that she had paid for). It doesn't sound like they expected the boy would suddenly -- in front of adults -- jump on her and start beating on her.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
133. She couldn't get a sixth grade boy off of the girl? Was she the only one there?
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 06:23 PM by shance
Something is not making sense in this story. Perhaps I am wrong.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #133
157. The cop was five feet tall. The boy was 200 pounds.
Did you read that part of the story? And the boy was obviously churned up, if he was willing to physically attack this girl in front of adults. Don't you think if the cop ("resource officer") had tried to grab him, he would have struck out at her?
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. What did they do before TASERS?
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 10:41 AM by Horse with no Name
A resource officer is generally trained by the Police Department (if not already an officer) to do what police officers do.
Do you mean that this police officer couldn't pull one person off of a child?
I understand this kid was 200 lbs., but seriously?
This stuff has always happened and sometimes the kids are bigger.
Can we just attribute it to the officers being afraid to get their uniforms dirty or wrinkled pulling someone off?
Because there really isn't any other reason. This boy wasn't armed.
Just sounds like he was out of control.
TASERS in school are a bad idea.
So you say that "if it were your daughter you would want them to use any means"?
What if your daughter pulls another girl's hair or something like that?
You approve of them using a TASER to make her stop?
We have to get out of this mentality that "someone has to protect me and mine 24/7, but leave my kids the fuck alone".
This boy has parents too and they probably aren't real thrilled about their kid being TASERED.
I watched Little House on the Prairie. Was one of my favorite shows growing up. Those kids fought too. I wonder how they ever survived without TASERS?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. With a 200 lb kid? Break a chair over his head.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yup, then you'd have a lawsuit for sure
There is no winning in some situations.

Let's face it folks - The kid is an ASSHOLE.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. Great question ! Here's my best guess based on how things used to be done
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 11:40 AM by slackmaster
Two or more male school employees, e.g. the "resource officer" and the P.E. teacher, would have tackled the boy to the ground then beaten and/or choked him until he stopped thrashing.

Then, the same people who are indulging in knee-jerk criticism of the use of the taser would be whining about grown men beating up a child.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
62. I think that's pretty ridiculous. Most people wouldn't be outraged over a teacher
separating children by force when they are fighting. So long as they don't cause injuries. This is how it was done in every school I attended. I don't remember ever seeing a news editorial or an "outrage" about this.

If there was an outrage, it would be started by the 24 hour cable media and their need for constant consumable information that outrages a public (so they never stop watching) and never bores them with real issues (images of war, loss of freedom, etc.)

Tasering kids is horrible and only indicates that our society itself is horrible.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. Naw
Tasing ONE BAD KID indicates that the kid was bad and needed to be tasered. Or pepper-sprayed. Or tackled and subjected to pain until the bad behavior stopped.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #68
82. And the other alternatives -- mace or pepper spray -- would
have hurt the girl, too.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
71. That's true, they would have.
But that would only have occurred if the people involved knew in advance that the boy, who was only verbally arguing at first, would escalate to hitting her right in front of the adults! There wasn't any time to round up some male helpers.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. So you think a 5 foot tall, 140 pound woman should have been able to
pull the 200 pound boy off the 85 pound girl?

There was only the one female officer there. They couldn't exactly wait till more officers arrived, because the boy was continuing to hit the girl.

You mention Little House on the Prairie. I'll tell you how they survived in my husband's western state. They hired male teachers as often as possible, and they encouraged them to bring guns to school.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. She was an officer.
They are trained to take these kinds of people down.
Healthcare professionals of the same size do it all the time.
The TASER has NO place in a school.
The entire story misses the one thing that should be the first to concentrate on.
6th graders will generally respect the law authority.
Did they even TELL him to stop before they TASED him?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. According to the Atlanta Journal article, yes, he
was warned about the taser. But he had jumped on the girl and was hitting her on the face and head -- it sounds like he was too out of control to listen to them.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
134. The same Atlanta where the elderly African American woman shot to death
by policemen that stormed into her house?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. That has what to do with this case?
Was this particular officer involved in that shooting death?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
143. They should have to take a course in nonviolent restraint...
which is what I had to do when I worked in a MRDD group home. Had to use it a few times, as well. Simple holds that stop the action and do not cause any harm beyond a little soreness the next day.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. the BOY could have been badly hurt too.
i've seen a fair number of girls/women who could scrap with the best of em, even against a male of much greater size.

we don't know if this was a "fight" or a "beating". for all we know the girl may have been verbally or physically taunting the boy even in the principals office. she may have been beating up on him too but they only felt the boy was a threat because she is "just a girl". i could speculate that maybe she was one of the popular girls, taunting the giant weird kid until he had enough and they started fighting...bottom line is we just don't know.

would you want your daughter tazed if she was beating up a boy? i'm not asking if it's likely she'll be busted for fighting, i'm asking if it's okay to taze a 6th grade boy of large size, is it okay to taze a girl of the same age but petite size?


i understand the need to have weapons strong enough to subdue violent suspects. but i have a problem with the use of electric shock devices that have been proven deadly. it's just too easy to administer lethal amounts of force without much effort on the part of the officer.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Nobody wants their child to be tased
I think pepper spray would have been a better choice in this case, but I wasn't there.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. "We" know more than you seem to think.
It started because the boy grabbed food off of the girl's tray in the lunchroom, and she demanded that he pay her $2 for it.

In general, I'm against tasering, especially in school, but I'm not so sure about this case. The single police woman, according to the newspaper account, was about 5 feet tall, 140 pounds. The boy was 200 pounds and the girl he was hitting was 85 pounds. Do you really think the five foot tall police officer could have pulled him off of her? He continued to hit even after the first tasing, which is why she did it a second time.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. Who do you have to piss off to become a "resource officer" anyway?
And is it a prerequisite of the position to be a borderline child molester? All of the ones I've encountered seemed to have questionable associations with certain girl students. I'm sure I'm generalizing.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
64. I'm sure you ARE generalizing.
The resource officers I know in my kids' schools seem to have an exceptional level of concern and caring for kids. I think it takes a special kind of person to do this work, especially considering some of the crap they have to put up with.

I don't think kids should ever be tasered. The officers in schools should be trained to break up fights and subdue out of control kids without tasers. It is just too dangerous. But I don't underestimate the level of violence in schools. One of the principals in my son's school recently got his head split open while trying to break up a fight.

Working in schools is dangerous business these days.
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AbbyR Donating Member (734 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
112. The resource officers I've known have been wonderful
I particularly remember the one at my daughter's high school, who showed up for every choir concert, every orchestra performance and every sports event. He was at graduation, to give each kid a hand shake as he or she came down the steps with his or her diploma. He did all of that on his own time, and he used to say that he often had to deal with the problem kids so he wanted to be very sure he supported the good ones. I'll never forget him, and neither will the youngsters he helped.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. Let me guess--it was Florida, right?
Mainly cause it's ALWAYS Florida.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
15. Ah the "resource officer "
You see when you want to sell people odious bullshit like putting armed cops in schools, you have to call it something else. So the something else that the fucktards have agreed on is 'resource officer'. That way it is not a cop with a gun (or a taser or whatever) that is hanging around the school looking for perps, it is resource officer. And don't worry it won't be your kid that gets busted for weed or gets tasered or gets shot, it will be some other kid, one of those bad kids, those kids raised by those bad parents. So much odious bullshit, it is hard to know where to start.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. Yep. "Resource officer" is Orwell-speak for COPS IN THE SCHOOLS.
Even in suburban/semi-rural elementary schools, fer Chrissake, here in Oklahoma. They get involved in the pettiest little fights between kids, start throwing their power around, threatening to arrest kids and charge them with assault for very minor acts.

Gotta start with the younguns to get 'em used to living in the new Murkan police state.

Absolutely ridiculous. And yet one more reason I'm glad my kids don't go to school.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. So, would you simply have the police removed and let things go as they will?
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 12:40 PM by slackmaster
I think that's been tried.

ETA here in San Diego there were security guards only in a few schools that happened to have kids with behavior problems. Most of them were peaceful.

When forced busing began in the mid 1970s, kids with behavior problems were scattered everywhere, so all the schools had to get security guards.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. I never imagined that response.
Lets take my school system. Suburban New Hampshire. Not exactly a high crime area. In fact we have very little crime at all, other than the usual drunk driving and weed smoking. Our school system has no history of violent crime. None. We do have a fairly typical level of drug use, managed up until this year by the school administration on a social rather than a criminal level.

Now we have an armed resource officer. The weed smokers have shifted to pills. This particular 'resource officer' despite being sold to the residents as a counselor, is known to be a total butthead, a real hard ass, who has a history of going out of her way to get errant kids in legal trouble. She is now patrolling our high school halls and parking lots ready and willing to use all available force to keep us safe. Safe from what? She will eventually incarcerate somebody for some stupid drug offense and or shoot somebody. Yes thanks, can we please have it back the way it was?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. I wish things could be like they were in 1975 here
But it can never be so.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
16. tasering adults is generally unnecessary and usually wrong . . .
tasering children is ALWAYS unnecessary and ALWAYS criminal . . . imo . . .
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Tony Soprano Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
17. The cops are out of control
anyone else noticed?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
21. There was someone in my 6th grade class who could have used a taser if he
ever decided to hurt someone - he was bigger than a lot of full grown men.

While in general I'd think a taser would be inappropriate for a 6th grader, there might be some very rare cases in which it would not be.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
24. There's a video on the CNN home page
http://www.cnn.com - Look under Most Popular.

I know the school officials are going to be in CYA mode, but from the information presented it sounds like a good shoot to me.

It seems that police and other officials are not going taser crazy.

School officials should not have to endanger themselves by getting into a physical brawl with a person who is flailing and out of control. Neither should police officers.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
25. It sounds like it was a bad situation.
Restraining a 200 lb pissed off kid would not be easy. I don't know what would be the right thing to do to protect the girl.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/clayton/stories/2006/11/29/1130mettaser.html
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. The right thing to do when there is a physical threat, is stop the threat
If you can do it without force, great.

If that doesn't work, you use a little force.

If that doesn't work, you use more force.

Escalate until the threat stops.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
47. And since he was hitting her in the head and face, I think they had to do
something effective quickly.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
30. if some 200 pound kid is beating on my daughter, shoot the little bastard.
screw that. if this 200 pound kid is punching an 85 pound girl, and is apparently big enough to fight off adults who are trying to stop it so that he can go back to punching her, taze the shit out of his punk ass.
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
127. AMEN.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
31. I want to know what shit for brains brought two fighting children into the same room
together to administer whatever school discipline was about to be wrought.

You SEPARATE fighting children dammit, you do NOT bring them into the same confined space together.

Some common sense might have mitigated this whole damn thing.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Atlanta Journal-Constitution says it was a verbal argument
...He attacked an 11-year-old female classmate after the two of them had been taken to the front office to resolve a verbal argument that started during lunch and spilled over into the classroom.

In the presence of several adults, including the female armed security officer, the argument quickly got out of control.

"The male student literally jumped on the girl and started hitting her about the face and head," said Charles White, coordinator of communications for the Clayton County school system....


http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/clayton/stories/2006/11/29/1130mettaser.html
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. Hitting her about the face and head doesn't sound verbal to me.
From your link:


"The male student literally jumped on the girl and started hitting her about the face and head," said Charles White, coordinator of communications for the Clayton County school system.

"He did not comply with directions to stop and physical efforts to pull him off the girl were unsuccessful," said White. "Finally, as a last resort, a school resource officer tasered the student in an effort to prevent further injury to the girl."

White said the boy and girl were separated and the boy attacked again and was tasered again by the officer, who is a city of Jonesboro police officer and carries the standard equipment of a pistol and a Taser, according to Jonesboro Police Sgt. Brad Johnson.

Both were treated for injuries at the scene, none of them serious, said White. The boy was arrested and charged with assault and battery and taken to a juvenile detention center, where he was later released in the custody of his mother.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. That happened AFTER the two were brought to the office
At least that's how I read it.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. Wherever it was happening, it had to be stopped. And quickly.
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
76. Still, verbal argument...SEPARATE them
One in one office, one in another, until the situation is absolutely calm. Even then, they stay separate.

When I was a child, and my bother and I would fight, separating us and keeping us in the same room ultimately led to the fight resuming or escalating (verbal or physical) as soon as the adult left the room, or stepped half a toe out the door, or even looked like they were going to do so. Maybe even a smack or continuation of the fight while the adult was in the room.

Such is the way with kids. And every adult knows it. Separate them...even if it means the next day. The girl would not have been pummeled, and the boy would not have been tased. It is sometimes easy to foresee the inevitable, especially if it had been going on for apparently hours.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #76
85. That totally makes sense, and would have probably led to a
better outcome. But given the situation they had, what should they have done to get the boy off the girl immediately -- before he could do any more damage? As it is, it took a second shock to get him to stop attacking her.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #76
140. Separate them...
good idea. If you've got two different offices, and two sets of adults not on duty with other kids, to take charge. Good luck with that.

There is one office, and one administrator on duty, at my school. If the admin isn't off campus at a meeting somewhere. Which is the same as the school I worked in before that, 900 miles and a state away. If you wanted to separate kids, they would have to go to the front office first; then one would sit in the principal's office and one in the little room with the medical supplies and cot. The rooms are adjacent to each other, but have doors. You couldn't separate them until you got them up to the central office, though, and anyone up there would want to know what was going on before deciding where to place them. It sounds like that happened here, and the further assault happened while they were getting that information.
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Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
32. Don't forget about that little girl in day care who was pulling things
off the walls and shelves about 2 years ago.
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
40. Hey, I want my own Taser now.
I don't feel safe walking around without one. I mean, what if other people who already have them are threatening me? I should have the right to defend myself.

It'll be like that Simpsons episode in which the whole family, in a therapy group and with the option to shock each other, ended up bringing down the power grid with their efforts.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. If someone twice your size physically attacks you I'd say you'd be justified in
defending yourself.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
69. all i can say is
when i was in school, I wish we had tasers for the amount of times I got the shit beat out of my by bullies.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. And I'm sure the 85 pound girl underneath the 200 pound boy appreciated
the adults doing whatever they could to get him off her as fast as possible.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
84. I think with an 11 year old the proper protocol in these situations is
wet willies, indian burn, then wedgie, then swirlie, and only then do you go to the taser.

I'm just saying follow the proper protocol.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #84
110. Yeah, if the swirlie doesn't do the job you have to escalate big-time
:D
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Little Wing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
91. Clearly the officer went over the top, and should have instead waggled a bottle
of water in front of the child, with the ensuing footrace ending the physical confrontation.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
94. welcome to a police state. unfortunately that is happening.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #94
100. Because only in a police state would you use force to get a 200
lb person off the 85 lb person they're attacking?
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #94
106. police state? this is a 200 lb boy beating up an 85 pound girl
damn nazi cops trying to protect little girls. :eyes:

read the whole story.
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #106
129. Yes, someone should have calmy and rationally..
told the little, 85 pound girl to just be patient while they tried to reason with the 200 behemoth bashing her head in.:sarcasm:
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
107. Thank you Homeland Security for your new procedures
in dealing with the public.... Our state police owe it all to you, you Bastards!!!!
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
123. As the parent of a 6th grader, I was mortified when I read the subject line
Now that I've read the particulars, honestly, I feel a bit differently.

See, I'm the parent of a VERY SMALL 6th grade boy. 4'6" and 65 lbs. If some kid larger than his father attacked him I would want the school to do whatever they could to protect him. WHATEVER IT TOOK.

That said, like many of you I am very disturbed by this new "taser culture", and I do feel it's overused and abused. Clearly the answer would have been to put the kids in separate rooms, but apparently the physical brawl broke out when they were already in the office. There are no easy answers to this one, given the large size of the attacking kid.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #123
152. I'm with you, nonconformist. This seems like one of the
few uses I've seen of a Taser that makes sense. They were able to stop the out of control boy from assaulting the girl, without the resource officer or any teacher getting hurt.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
126. Seems perfectly justified to me.
Beating up on a girl you outweigh by 115 pounds? That is the act of a true coward. Taser is the least you should get.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. Hell yes! They should have shot the little bastard!
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 05:48 PM by Buzz Clik
Busted his head or broken his arm.

It's long been known that the best way to stop the cycle of violence is with even more severe violence.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #130
135. Apparently there wasn't a non-violent way to stop this cowardly brute.
And he didn't even stop after he was tasered once. What would you suggest? Offering some cookies and giving him a time-out? Singing a folk song about the folly of violence? Balls. Sometimes you have to hit a donkey between the ears with a stick to get his attention, this was one of those times.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #135
158. I'm sorry -- I thought we were talking about a kid in grade school.
Yeah. I checked the story. It was a kid in grade school.

So, some 200 pounder is beating the slop out of a girl in the principal's office -- and the physical violence didn't start until they were in the office. Clearly, the principal lost control of the situation. So, they apply "non-lethal" force (which can kill) to get the little monster off the girl. And did they then get the violent little bastard in another place to keep it from happening again? No. They gave him yet another opportunity to start pounding her.

I guess that the authorities involved were so incredibly inept that they were left with no alternative but the shock the holy shit out of this kid -- twice.

Under extraordinary circumstances, perhaps using a taser on a child might be justified. However, these authorities are clearly incapable of handling situations such as these and created the extraordinary circumstance. Fire them. Now.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #158
172. I disagree that the authorities created the circumstance.
They brought the kids to the office in order to settle what had been a verbal dispute. I haven't seen any evidence that they knew this kid might become violent, have you?

And the impression I had from the articles I read was that the two shocks were delivered in close succession -- there wasn't time to get them apart before the boy started pounding on her again. Do you have a link for different information?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #130
142. I feel confident that if someone more than twice your size were beating the shit
out of you, you'd welcome someone intervening with force.

Stopping the cycle of violence is a good goal and a basis for strategy. Stopping the violence itself is called for in emergency situations.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #142
159. I'd welcome the intervention, but only the intervention merited.
I've had people twice my size attempting to beat the shit out of me. I fought back and took my lumps -- twice broken nose, chipped teeth, etc. If someone had shown up with a taser and zapped him, I'd have felt like a pussy. So don't attempt to put me in this story.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #159
162. Oh okay. We wouldn't want an 85 lb 6th grade girl to "feel like a pussy".
She'd be much better off with a broken nose and chipped teeth.

Maybe we can get this new policy established. :eyes:
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #162
164. Do us both a favor: read.
My comments were directed at YOU trying to inject ME (as the victim) into this discussion.

Read before you rant.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #164
167. I read your post just fine.
I wonder what standard you suggest law enforcement use when they witness a 200 pounder wailing on an 85 pounder.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #167
170. A 200 lb 11-year-old?
Any cop who cannot handle a 200 lb adult without tasers is worthless. But a cop and a principal who cannot handle an 11-year-old? Tragic.

They chose to use the taser, now they can wait for the lawsuits.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #170
174. The police won't lose a lawsuit based on the facts we know.
The law doesn't preclude the police from using them on a violent suspect, whether that suspect is a student or not.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #170
175. Good luck finding a jury that will grant an award in that suit. NT
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #159
173. No, you obviously are not capable of empathizing with
an 85 pound eleven year old girl.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #130
153. I don't know that this would count as "more severe violence."
That boy could have broken the girl's jaw or cheekbones, or given her a black eye or a concussion. (She was treated for injuries, but I don't know what they were.) As far as I know, he had no after-effects from the tasing.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #153
160. You respond either with in-kind force or appropriate force.
There were two adults in the room. They were totally incapable of preventing the fight in the office -- one could argue that they actually invited the fight to occur TWICE! So, an 11-year-old is hammering a little girl in the presence of a principal and an officer. And they couldn't break it up without a taser? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Yes, the violent s.o.b. needs to be tossed from school and disciplined to the full extent of the law. The rest was way over the top. (For the record: I do not weigh 200 pounds, but I guarantee you that I could have pulled this sack of shit off that girl by myself with nothing but my own physical force. I also can give you the promise that if this kid had been beating my daughter in my presence, he would have suffered serious pain. But I'm not a school administrator or police officer, and I would gladly accept the punishment coming my way for thrashing the little turd.)
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
139. yes, a "resource officer" is a cop with a gun
and yes, I'm happy to have them in my school. We need them, given the shit the starts in the community and then comes to school with some of our students. Further, I would suggest that those who are getting the vapors over cops in schools have little experience with schools these days.
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Rockstone Donating Member (633 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
145. She should have clubbed him over the head with a baton
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 10:18 PM by Rockstone
So he'd have a painful reminder for a few weeks.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
163. life imprisonment is a good way to start.,
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