My school district has sent out a disclaimer for their Xmas/holiday parties

No doubt in response to the annual lawsuits that the local fundies usually start filing around this time of the year...and to keep people from spreading rumors/lies. Like a certain **Fox News** person who announced on his show last year that our district wasn't allowing kids to wear green/red to school.


Dear Plano ISD eNews Subscriber:
Plano ISD has received questions regarding whether the district prohibits
or discourages Christmas parties, the use of the words Merry Christmas
or related holiday traditions.

The PTA/room parents at the various campuses assist with the planning and organization of these parties and are largely responsible for coordinating supplies, themes and related guidelines for the parties. The parties typically do not include a religious message. However, individual parents and /or students may bring items to the parties that say Christmas, Merry Christmas or depict a religious picture or saying (regardless of the particular religion). If you desire to bring something red or green, even if it does not comply with the party theme, you are welcome to do so.

School districts are prohibited from promoting or denying the free
expression of religion, although they can teach about religions and
observances. Schools cannot show favor regarding one religious belief over another they must remain neutral.

Christmas is a traditionally Christian holiday celebrating the birth of
Christ, although, many of the traditional Christmas decorative items have a secular meaning. Individuals are free to call the winter holiday party whatever they want - holiday party, Christmas party, etc. However, the district will not label the winter holiday parties as “Christmas” parties.

In planning the parties, we encourage parents to be mindful of the different religious beliefs represented in our schools. Plano ISD hopes to create an environment where all children feel included, not excluded.

Amen.

It is that simple. How stupid are we that we do not all understand this?

The rabid fundies who cause all the uproar "understand"
the policy just fine. They just aren't willing to abide by it.

Certain groups of them are of the opinion that their belief system
is more important than any law or moral code, and that any
dishonest, rude, immoral, or blatantly ILLEGAL dirty trick
they use to force people to knuckle under to it is completely
justified.

Personally, I suspect that it's one of the things that
actually ATTRACTS some types to it. Who wouldn't want
GOD'S direct permission to be a rude, nosy asshole, right?

Before ole' bill decided to start a "War on Christmas" all by himself, this wasn't a problem worth of even a memo.

:eyes:

for some cookies and a break from school

The only "American" way to resolve this is to allow the prescribed "christian" church to force their fucking beliefs on all children in the district and insist that they ensure their families provide at least 10% of their income to the prescribed "christian" church.

would that not be in keeping with the constitution according to the radical christian clerics who work every day to destroy said constitution?

I hope I don't need the sarcasm emoticon.

Christians spend their whole fucking existence either hating or faking instances where they can claim martyrdom.

just to be clear. there are a whole lot of christians, i would say a majority that do not "use" christianity in this manner. but.... as a christian i agree with you anger and am right there with you. as a christian, i fight this voice and see that "christianity" has become a cult across the nation and have in essence seperaqted self from religion, not belief. as a christian, i strongly stand on your side and all those thaqt speak out against this group of people thaqt seem to have the voice on christianity at this time

(full disclosure, I'm a devil-worshipper).

In fairness, it's only a certain faction of Christians that do use their faith this way and their version of Christianity is a very odd thing, it's a faith that exists because of and in symbiosis with, extreme-right-fringe politics. This is teh kind of "There is only one Reagan and Bush is his prophet" approach to Christianity where, if God said, "Y'know, this Bush dude is kinda dumb", they'd became maltheist overnight (and Faux "news" would run specials suggesting the Crucifixion was faked).

I nicknamed it Christopublicanism a while back but it was pointed out that this involves linking them with Jesus (I loathe God but have no opinion on Jesus). Really, their faith is a mask they use to justify their agenda but I'm at a loss for what to call them. Their movement is the Religious Reich so that makes them, what?

have accomplished the hate,.... without the bible. i say that they are the ones that are creating hate across the nation and republicans just jumped on it and used it for their gain. it could not have been done without the bible, i do believe. that is not sayng that i believe that is the intent of the bible. in my reading of the bible, if you take it literally, on the surface, without christ in heart, the interpretation is the allowing of hate. but, if one reads beyond the literal words, remembering always, omnipresent, love,... as the essence of the bible, one can see the lesson beyond the hate and the true christian message is love and not hate. and i feel that can only be done with connection to spirit within, talking from heart.... however one may feel a connection with love, thru children, animals, nature... the story is always the same, just many avenue to see and hear the story.

about the only belief i have not delved into, to understand, to see the grace.. lol lol is devil worship. i have absolutely not a clue on what you are about. respectfully....

It's a form of maltheism. I see God as an oppressive and corrupt ruler and Lord Lucifer as the original rebel against that oppression.

it as lucifer allowed himself to be all bad, to allow the polarity we experience for the opportunity of getting beyond said polarity of good and bad. lol lol. i so not see lucifer as bad anymore than i see any good. i see it as an embracing of the whole and once that is done,... then utopia. i see that at the end, when man finally gets it, lucifer/christ/aa michale will throw arms around each other and say "what a ride. 'bout d*mn time people get love... that includes warts and all"

i love creative thinking.

You and I can read the same Bible and see two wildly different things. It's all down to interpretation.

as your avatar. I'm sure you're aware of that and you only chose it because the upside-down pentagram wasn't available, but I wanted to point this out to others who don't know the history and significance of the pentacle. Pagans have been trying to educate people for centuries that they are not "devil worshippers" and that the pentacle is not a "sign of the devil". Your use of the pentacle and subsequent declaration of being a Satanist could be confusing to some. I'm sure most Pagans on this board won't criticize you for following the faith of your choice, but would prefer that you upload an avatar that correctly identifies your faith and not a different faith. I'm not a Pagan myself, but I have many Pagan friends.

Your DU profile settings gives instructions on how to upload your own avatar.

Thanks!

:hi:

and as you say only used it because the inverted pentacle wasn't available. After that, I kind of forgot about it because, really, how often do you actually notice someone's icon?

Anyone reading this: Pagans are not Satanists, Satanists are not pagans. They are two entirely seperate faiths with very little commonality. I am misusing the pagan symbol here, primarily out of laziness.

I always the God described in the Old Testament Bible was a big prick, also. But, I believe in a different "God" that's not really a god in the sense that most people use the term. So, I can appreciate your viewpoints.

Good journey on your path and may our paths cross again.

It'll still get warped into the school administrators hate Christmas or somesuch. Good letter, though.

Wikipedia has listed in the school district's entry "The most recent Federal lawsuit against PISD". I probably don't even want to know how much of our local tax dollars have been spent fighting the fundies. See the the paragraphs previous to this one for our history of "the war on Christmas"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plano_Independent_School_District


The most recent Federal lawsuit against PISD was filed in March, 2006 by a religious group, Students Witnessing Absolute Truth (SWAT,) alleging religious discrimination. In a Decision of the US District Court granting a preliminary injunction against Plano ISD, the judge said, part, "The issue in this case is not one of sponsorship or the lack thereof, but of the flagrant denial for equal access guaranteed to S.W.A.T…The harm at issue is irreparable because it inhibits the exercise of Plaintiff’s First Amendment freedoms of speech and religion.” On April 26, 2006, Plano ISD offered, and SWAT accepted, an Offer of Settlement, which included the district's promise to change its discriminatory policy

You know, I was in a Bible study in high school. We met before school on the floor in the corner of the library with no moderator (didn't want one, didn't need one), and everything was fine. We were the minority at our school (this was long before megachurches were prevalent and before evangelical numbers were up), and the only times I felt discriminated against, the school administration backed me up 100%.

What we have here is a bunch of whiny Christians. Things aren't that bad.

now.... was this intent to send seasons greeting, or to challenge.... what we call this time. a political statement. i say a political statement, exactly the opposite of the intent of christmas. i wanted to sneak over there and write, happy holidays too.... on the sticker, lol

just cause i am ornery

Now that they've made Christmas into a political issue, whenever someone says "Merry Christmas" I have to at least consider that they're making an underhanded political statement. We can't just enjoy the holidays the way we want to now; we have to have another cultural battle.

God, you read into things too much. I would never think such a thing. "Merry Christmas" just means "Merry Christmas." I say it to everyone, unless I specifically know they don't celebrate it. I have a bunch of Jewish friends. They get "Happy Hannukah." Everyone else gets "Merry Christmas." I find it somewhat disturbing that some people could possibly view it as an underhanded political statement and I'm not even religious. I'm just the typical non-religious, but culturally Irish Catholic sort.

It isn't usually, but sometimes it is.

and all they do is take and take and take, they never return the favor.

That's why schools now call them holiday or winter parties and programs to begin with. The approach by the school district is fine, but it's directed to both the religious nuts and the anti-religious nuts. Maybe younger folks don't realize songs like Silent Night used to be part of public school programs, and they almost always ended with 'We Wish You A Merry Christmas'. I don't know that schools can do that anymore as it's promoting one religious holiday over another.

I don't understand why people deny that has been two political sides to the whole Christmas ordeal for quite some time now.

have f*cked with how my kids get to experience christmas. putting every one on a tightrope to walk this or on eggshells. it is stupid, a waste of time and surely as adults we could have walked this better than where we are today.

My daughter's friend is a first grade teacher and they changed the entire first grade (4 classes) Halloween costume party to a harvest party to accommodate one child. It just seems to me that when it's clear there is an equal artistic or secular purpose, then we don't need to get all twisted in knots over some of this stuff. It's just silly.

in arizona. she was my friend. she often shared religion about her religion to me and i loved it, saw a difference, thought it was neat, never thought to question her on her beliefs. but, that class knew she was not christin and that teaher had her bring her stuff and parent in to give us a lecture on her experienc ein religion at this time. not a single child was bothered. we all thought it was cool.

we are the only democrat in our school. i have taught my children to embrace their difference, understand many will not agree, some may even be bothered and that is THEIR lesson in this and being a minority. the higher in the lesson for them, and without it, how they would be missing out on something. i have never suggested all others MUST conform to who my boys are. i do ask for respect, but dont always get it. and again, another lesson for boys that will make them a better person

we have in this area halloween is a satan holiday too. kids went to a christian school. i should them the hypocrisy of teaching halloween is a satan school. the silliest of it all. still, they had to be respectful of others, not challenge it and follow the rules. i on the other hand carried in my halloween mug of coffee, orange with white ghosts filled with coffee, all school year, wink.

My daughter's middle school doesn't celebrate any holidays.

And yet it doesn't prevent any of the kids from celebrating all they like at home.

me again on this subject. ya..... no battle here.

Thank you for understanding.

They sing Christmas songs, Hanukkah songs, and Kwanzaa songs. There's nothing wrong with that because it's includes everyone's religion. The problem arises when they sing ONLY Christmas songs. If they want to have "Christmas Parties" in schools then they must also have Kwanzaa Parties, Hanukkah parties, Winter Solstice parties. It's much easier to have a secular winter party that includes everyone.

I'm just saying people shouldn't act as if the "War on Christmas" was concocted out of nothing and has no basis to it. It does. I personally don't really care what the winter parties and break are called at schools, but in many districts that only have Christian kids, they have opted to remove all religious overtures because they wouldn't know how to bring other religions in properly. It's completely secular. And frankly, it IS Christmas. They are Christmas trees with Christmas ornaments. They are Christmas lights that decorate the Christmas trees. Christmas carols, Christmas cookies, candy canes, Santa Claus, - we are celebrating Christmas. To bring in other cultures and traditions is fantastic, but we shouldn't have to avoid the word Christmas when that's primarily what's going on, even when its only secular, as my house is.

the separation clause.

:eyes:

:eyes:

they did in the 50's? They are making it so inconvenient for the kids who love Christmas!

That seems to be the theme in a few threads tonight.

It certainly had to be uncomfortable for non Christian kids back when school prayer was okay and schools outrightly endorsed Christianity. But would you agree that every so often there's someone who makes a fuss about something like Christmas songs. Carol of the Bells, Up on the House Top, We Wish you a Merry Christmas, Jingle Bells, and other such songs are pretty secular in my view because they don't have biblical references only talk about celebrating the holiday of Christmas. The Jewish equivalent I suppose would be something like The Dreidel Song or Oh Hanukkah because neither of those make biblical references either they just talk about the celebration of Hannukah.

Basically, my view is that if it's Santa Claus it is secular, if it's Jesus, it's religious. A town holiday tree would be okay in my book as long as it can have Hannukah, Kwanza, and other things on it as well as Christmas things. A town nativity scene, absolutely not.

Someone just asked for a menorah to be included, so the airport proceeded to rip down all 16 Christmas trees out of spite.

Why?

I've always thought of the menorah as a secular symbol of Hannukah. Now that you bring it up, though, I can see arguments for it being both religious and secular whereas the nativity scene is definitely religious. I've just always thought of it as Hannukah's Christmas Tree, and I certainly don't think of biblical references when I think of a Christmas tree. Most of are Christmas rituals come from Pagan traditions anyway.

Do you see the Menorah as religious?

It wouldn't occur to me to think of it as anything but a religious symbol, and I'd feel I was insulting Judaism and Chanukah if I were to make the presumption to treat it like Rudolph's red nose. I suppose if Jews 'do' Chanukah, whether or not their religious, then I can see what you mean. But since it isn't my religion, I can't make that leap. That's part of what I meant when I said people who are unfamiliar with other religions would have a difficult time bringing those traditions into a school winter celebration.

that to many many non Christians, the whole thing is Christian.

I don't know why you are.

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And we should be worried about corrupt political systems too. I am.

But I'm not concerned with how people spend their own money, just like I'm not concerned with how you celebrate Christmas on your own dime.

Priority: Public moneys are public concern, your own moneys are subject to only your discretion.

So it isn't public money to begin with. And as long as everybody is allowed to bring in their own 'winter' traditions, as the letter in the OP states, then there isn't any Constitutional crisis over Santa or the Menorah or anything else. People really need to get a grip.

If the parents want to have a party on their dime, no one is stopping them.

Although Sandnsea has pointed out to me that perhaps a menorah might not be.

The claims of there being a 'War on Christmas' does have a basis in reality. It wasn't concocted out of thin air, as some people like to claim.

There is no war on Christmas.

Public entities are required to be religiously neutral.

That doesn't diminish Christmas in the least.

I said the right didn't invent it out of thin air, that there have been law suits to prevent Christmas from being celebrated in schools. You can believe that's the way it should be - but it doesn't change the fact that people brought law suits to make it that way.

Parents have almost always taken the responsibility for school parties, they are generally not school or teacher driven. If Jewish parents want to have a Chanukah party, they can, as can parents of other faiths and cultures. Many parents want to get together and have one big party representing various holidays, great. It shouldn't prevent parents in other schools from having Christmas events just because their school isn't represented by someone of every faith and culture in the world. That's basically what the letter in the OP says, the school will have one broad holiday party but children can participate in accordance with their faith or culture.

Consequently, the public school, as a whole, will probably not be religiously neutral. The staff will not advocate one religion over another, which is as it should be.

in a war on Christmas - which is absurd.

It's the same way they've spun criticism of Bush into being pro-terrorist.

I can't think why you'd buy into it.

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All those people celebrating Christmas in public quarters, oh my dear heavens how did the republic survive??

The kids might actually learn some respect for other cultures in the process!

or maybe ...

Happy Saturnalia!

Holidays means "Holy Days" and there are several holidays this time of year. I'm all for inclusivity.

I've been using this line lately, to
great effect.

I say Happy Holidays (meaning Merry X-mas, Happy New Year,
Happy Chanukah, Pleasant Kwaanza, WHATEVER!)

Don't take the id out of my HOL-ID-ays.

:hi: :evilgrin:

FOX Police sicced on you. I'm calling O'Reilly

I always found the community obsession with holiday parties at school to be more than irritating.

If we are not supposed to promote or favor one belief over another, why would we use public classroom time and space for exclusionary activities, parties, etc.?

The reality is that some faiths do not allow celebration of holidays, no matter what they are called. It's one thing to stand silent during the pledge, or while other people sing "happy birthday" to someone; it's another to have to sit in the library or just stay home while your class has a party on YOUR instructional time.

It's even worse to be the only damned classroom on campus not doing a holiday "party." Not only do the students in that room feel left out (except those that would have had to sit in the office or stay home,) but every other damned teacher on campus will shove their own students who aren't allowed to attend off on you, overcrowding the classroom with disenfranchised and disgruntled kids.

The reality is also that, if you point out this little fact to parents demanding a party, you're starting a school-wide and district conflagration that will sap your time and energy away from what you are there for; teaching and learning. Hell hath no fury like a parent whose child is denied a school-sponsored holiday party. Shit, if it doesn't happen at school, parents who want their kids to have parties would have to host them. In their own homes, under their own supervision.

Why can't my classroom be for learning, and community outside the school be for celebrating various "holidays?" Why can't our celebrations at school be seasonal festivals that celebrate learning, literacy, numeracy, or intellectual pursuits--the things we are supposed to be achieving?

You sound like one of our local first grade teachers and the kids didn't get to dress up in costumes because of it. That's just sad, Halloween dress-up is a fantastic time for kids. Parties are great opportunities for socialization, which kids also need to learn. And a thinking teacher can use a party to introduce kids to other cultures. My Spanish teacher had the audacity to set aside a day for a Mexican fiesta on Cinco de Mayo, I imagine you wouldn't have approved of that either.

Sounds to me like you need to lighten up.

No. I don't need to lighten up. Halloween was great fun. I went trick-or-treating with my grandson and his friends and families, and we all had a great time. Our family enjoyed dressing up like pirates. Then we attended a Halloween party. Some of my students were in attendance, and we "socialized."

We just didn't do it on school time.

Schools don't keep kids from dressing up, or from attending halloween parties. They just don't need to do it in the classroom.

And no...I don't object to teaching about cultural celebrations, which is not the same as having exclusionary activities in the classroom. There are plenty of ways to teach socialization skills without excluding some of the students.

Ever wonder how much actual learning gets done on a day when everyone is in costume? Put 30 kids in costume in a room, and do you really think lessons are attended to? Just how long is the party supposed to last? All day? Let's have you be responsible for an all-day party for 30 of other people's kids on public time, and see how "light" you are at the end of the day.

We deal with the sugar rushes and crashes for the first few weeks of every November. We participate in community and family events. We try to connect seasonal festivals to the learning going on so that everyone can still have fun. The key word there being "everyone." I don't just "introduce" kids to other cultures; I model respect for other cultures by not planning activities that will exclude some of my students.

In my years in public education, I've seen this topic run the gamut. There are parents, teachers, admins, and school board members that hold every position in the continuum. I don't begrudge anyone their love of holidays at all. I just have enough integrity to know what is appropriate for public instructional time and what is not. And I'll be damned if I'll spend instructional time on a "party" when I'm not allowed to spend it on a field trip to a theater or museum, because loss of "instructional time" might drop test scores.

FYI, my teaching partners and I are hosting a "holiday" party after school before winter break. It will last for 3 hours, include an xmas movie in one room and rollerblading and music in another, as well as snacks, games, gifts, etc.. The difference between that and a class "christmas" party is that it doesn't take place during someone's learning time, someone who wouldn't be allowed to participate. Those students who aren't allowed to do xmas are still coming, because there is no xmas in the gym where they are rollerblading and playing games. That's the way I usually plan seasonal festivals in the classroom as well; always making sure that there are several choices, and that all can participate. The difference between the classroom activity and the after school activity is that classroom activities are focused on learning, whether they are reading, writing, dancing, doing math, or science related to the season. The party is just a party, and is actually planned as a social event for our community of students. I don't do too many of them on my off-duty hours after school; 3 or 4 a year. December's will be the 2nd so far this year. The first had nothing to do with a holiday, but everything to do with "opportunity for socialization."

Thanks for recognizing me as a "thinking teacher."

It excludes kids whose parents can't make alternate arrangements for a child to be picked up or who has to catch a bus home. So even trying to come up with a solution that considers social and religious values, it ignores the economic situation of families that can't abruptly change work to accommodate a change in a child's school schedule.

I also highly doubt a few 2 hour parties a year is going to have any adverse affect on your students' education. Sounds like a pretty lame excuse to me. Being 'damned if you're going to spend your instructional time on a party' - well ladeda, can you huff and puff any louder, find any other way to retaliate against your school district?

adverse effect on their education. A couple of parties? Maybe not. Still, there is no real reason for them, is there? It's not like we have to teach our students about the "cultural" er, corporate, practice of halloween, xmas, valentines day, etc.; they already know about those cultural/corporate traditions. I wouldn't be allowed to teach the history of halloween as a "cultural" lesson; discussion of pagan beginnings, and church takeover in an effort to wipe out pagan practices, would not be welcome in the community, lol. We already teach social skills and provide opportunities to practice those skills. So what, exactly, is the point? That teachers "do" the party so that parents don't have to? That is not what my classroom is for, and that is not what classroom time is for.

So far, we've never had kids not come because of transportation issues. Our families carpool; many of the parents are already there, attending with their kids. A couple of parties on class time? Not a big deal if you are not the one being judged by the feds.

While I sound hard-nosed here, that's because I'm expressing my opinion. I get to do that. In my opinion, parties are the parents' job, not the teachers' or schools. In my opinion, it's a waste of my professional time and energy. If I'm not teaching, I could be at home with my own family, who also need my time and attention. In reality, I've worked to accommodate the "cultural" expectations of my parents. Hence the seasonal festivals, where I get to inject some literacy, numeracy, etc. into the activities. Hence the after school events on unpaid time.

I think you are tilting with a windmill. What is your REAL beef? You don't like my opinion? That's fine. I don't expect everyone to. That doesn't keep me from expressing it. Are you sure it's this issue, or is it some other issue you want to confront? Classroom parties push some emotional buttons? Fine. They push my professional buttons. Your buttons are yours to deal with, not mine.

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That is all.

Since they all revolve around a religious theme, especially considering the religious overtones of Santa!

Nuts, buncha friggin' nuts. THIS is why we lose elections.

that is neutral to all.

No reindeer, no candy cane, no dredle, no tree, no greenery, no gifts, no candles - nothing, zero, zip. Everything that would make a party a party, wouldn't be allowed because it would represent something religious somewhere along the line.

I promise you, it can be done.

I'm sorry to hear that. That's one of the obstacles we face; that American culture thinks learning is a chore. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It's a good thing my students don't feel the way you do. I guess they don't think their experience is "sad," or that I am "putrid." That must be why I get so many requests each year, why I get so many hugs from students and parents, why my students keep in contact after they've moved on... I'm sure you know better than they do, though. :eyes:

Personal attacks are the last resort of the weak, or of those whose argument has no substance. In my opinion.

Big difference. In my opinion. :eyes:

privileging paganism and earth-based traditions by using them at all.

I don't know about your community; maybe all parents have unlimited time and flexible schedules to drive kids home later after the off-school-time events, and to plan parties elsewhere for them. But in all the places where I've lived (and parented, or grandparented) this _would_ leave a bunch of children out, sometimes including mine. And often the school tries to promulgate rules for the home parties parents can give as well. What about those warnings that if any classmates are invited to a home birthday party, they all have to be?

If you have a problem with the need for maximum "time-on-task" -- and from your comments I assume it's related to NCLB and the distortions it's introduced into school curricula, are you taking it up with your congresscritters? That's your right to do too, as a citizen.

As for pushing your profedssional buttons, I have to assume you're teaching elementary or middle school. In h.s. parties are pretty much held outside classroom hours, aren't they? And in college you don't have to worry about them at all. If it's such a big deal to you, why not switch to teaching a grade level where you won't feel the pressure to have them? No offense meant, but it sounds like you might be happier doing so.

in reality, I doubt they'd work. Even our well-established secular holidays don't carry the richness and depth of symbolism, or even the fun elements, as much as those that have grown out of religious traditions. And you think that we can cobble together holidays celebrating those abstract things, that kids will really look forward to? Not that there can't be sheer joy in these pursuits too, but I don't think you can pre-plan such eureka moments. The nearest thing I've seen to what you suggest is at graduation or end-of-school-year ceremonies, and for a lot of students and parents _they're_ ruined, because in the honors awarded, a few kids invariably end up getting all the recognition.

As for "some faiths do not allow celebration of holidays". One of the things supposed to happen in the public schools -- I HOPE -- is that children are exposed to at least the range of diversity that exists in the community. Should schools protect such children from knowing that other faiths, and those who profess no faith, DO celebrate holidays? What happens then if they get into a job situation where holidays are celebrated? They may not even have the option, then, of just staying home to avoid it.

You do deserve a lot of credit for your originality here...but ignoring children's very human need for fun and sociability and breaks from routine in school is not the way to solve the "party problem" -- if indeed it _is_ a problem.

:hi:

There are some real nuts around here. Like the guy who tried to sue the district over having a Harry Potter themed book club. :crazy: A couple of weeks ago, my dh took my daughter to a girl scout "father/daughter" dance. Apparently, someone complained about the "appropriateness" of some of the DJ's musical selections. Dh nor any of the other fathers from our troop have any idea what the problem was.

They forgot to mention a plump white-bearded and red-suited old man who delivers presents to good children at Christmastime, Santa.

:cry: