At the core of the "Hillary Issue"

What exactly did she DO to create the polarization? This happened BEFORE she was even running for senator.

1. she claimed to "not stay home and bake cookies"

2. she forgave a cheating husband

3. she was put in charge of trying to get every American health care.

1.MILLIONS of women were not staying home to bake cookies by the time she said that.. Does anyone think that Nancy reagan was a cookie-baker?

2. Babs surely forgave Poppy more than a few times..as have MILLIONS of women

3. Although it was probably a bad idea to give a first lady a policy position, it's not the first time a "famliy member/friend" was put in such a position.

The righties who ppushed all these "stories" did it because they knew that BC would blast them right back, and it was easier to attack him through the first lady.

She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. Every time she protested, they accused her of being shrill and obnoxious, and when she didn't respond, they said it was because she was ashamed of herself and admitted she was wrong, by not responding.

It's a classic republican attack mode.

Think of all the shrill "women in red" who run think tanks and "foundations" who are businesswomen.... they are praised for their stances on public policy..

The problem Hillary has, is that democrats always play defense, and you don;t score very often on defense.

Fix the MEDIA, and we fix a lot of the perception problems dems have..

She is a corporatist shill who supports a criminal war of aggression.

and they don't like anyone to the left of Atilla the Hun?

And they don't really like women anyway, except Republican women who automatically follow the male lead rather than thinking for themselves?

No matter what she has done since she became a senator, the deep-seated antagonism of her started way back.. and was undeserved.

She will have to stand on her record as a senator.

She is smart and savvy, and there will be none of that by anyone in Washington wearing a skirt (other than Republicans that do so in the closet, of course). She is calculating and has been cultivating her power base and contacts for years now in preparation for her run at the top job.

Some people here at DU nail her in particular, unfairly in my opinion, for her yes vote on the IWR. She is no more culpable for that than the 27 other Dems that voted yes, and they all suck for rendering that vote IMO.

Gore/Obama in 2008.

:sarcasm:

Which probably explains a lot, right?

:->

Moon Child Aries Rising Sag Decsending...

I bite.

IMHO, people see Hillary as someone who, above all else, is looking out for Hillary, not the country, and not the party. She takes a stand only when it is what will benefit her. Given those she has chosen to align herself with in certain situations, I think that some people on both sides of the aisle see her as strictly a political opportunist and do not trust her.

i was so happy to have DEMs in the white house i let myself be "willfully ignorant" of the clintons' darker side, i.e. obsequious corporatism.

Hell, it would be considered "ambition" and "political smarts" for a man. But when a woman does it, it's called "greed".

Being a politician requires a certain level of egotism and self-preservation, but the public is still threatened by women who aren't selfless and self-effacing care-givers. There is so much sexism in all this Hillary-hatred, it's depressing. This century will not see a female U.S. president.

Anyone who criticizes Hillary Clinton for her centrism should remember that the Democratic party as a whole has been pushed in that direction over the past decade. Why does H.C. get blamed so much more than, say, Kerry? I say that as a leftist who doesn't believe in centrism.

I'm not saying Hillary is a bad politician, just that some on the left don't trust her. IMHO, that's really the core issue with people in general (non-repukes). Some of this is because of the rights relentless attacks on her (which focus attention on her more than most other Democrats), some is because she's taken a number of political positions that were unpopular. As far as those on the right go, they still blame Bill for all things bad in this world (and I certainly don't agree), but I don't see why they wouldn't equate Hillary with this as well. The right hates it's perceived enemies, and Hillary is certainly one of them. As far as those on the left, I've seen a large number of people who wouldn't vote for her in the primary for any number of policy (not gender) reasons, but say they'd back her if she wins the nomination, so I wouldn't go so far as to say that she's "hated" on the left.

In fact, it was the main point of attack the Republicans used against Kerry and Gore. Its also the reason I never liked Dean. Democrats need someone who is seen as sticking to their convictions or else we will continue to lose. Flip-floppers aren't going to be elected President.

Hillary Clinton. A friend described it as fear of a strong woman. I personally don't care for Hillary that much because she's too conservative in her politics for my taste, but I don't hate her and if she did get elected President I would certainly support her. Of course I would let her know what I expected of her even though it might be too liberal for her.

she consulted an astrolger...and when she wouldn't let Reagan do anything unless the starts told her it was OK. And what criticism did we here when the republicans run Reagan for the second term knowing full well that he had Alzheimer's

That goes for the extremists on both the left and the right. HRC's not my favorite person by far, but just look at some of the people around here who scream that she's just exactly like Bush and wants to feast on the blood of Iraqi babies--let alone the things the freepers say about her.

At the time, I was married to a woman who had a catastrophic illness. Fortunately, I had full health insurance. But the experience was a nightmare, because even if you have health insurance, the insurance companies will make your life a nightmare. Keeping up with the paperwork was like a full time job, which I didn't have time for, and despite having full insurance the insurance companies wrecked our credit rating. We ended up containing the damage by paying out of pocket.

One day, our company human resources people sat us down and told us that they would have to change insurance plans. They told us how much they were paying beyond our contributions. I was floored because the combined yearly premiums were actually more than my then wife's medical costs. If she had the most expensive medical problems in the smallish company, but were still less than the premiums, what on earth were they doing with the premiums?

I also have a relative who is a doctor and several friends were newly minted doctors, and they were all experiencing the disaster of the direct managerial takeover of the medical system by the insurance companies. The health insurance companies were just then invading hospitals, hmos, practices and destroying the system.

That year, the Clintons came in on a wave of disgust about the health insurance companies. The first bizarre thing they did was put an unelected person, Hillary, in charge of this huge national crisis. What on earth were they doing? What possible expertise could she have in managing this catastrophe?

Then, Hillary began creating her proposal by entering into secret meetings with the insurance companies. By and large, Hillary excluded doctors groups and patients groups. Hillary established the precedent by which Dick Cheney developed energy policy behind closed doors with corporate interests in secret when she developed health care policy behind closed doors with corporate interests in secret.

The obvious and predictable result was a proposal for even greater catastophe. Although the Republican attack machine went into high gear to smear her plan and attacked it for all the wrong reasons, her plan was in fact a corporate monstrosity that would have reduced the health care system to rubble and killed hundreds of thousands of people.

This debacle affected me personally. Moreover, by failing so spectacularly, she effectively put health care reform off the political agenda for a generation. How many hundreds of thousands have died or suffered because of her idiocy, secrecy and arrogance?

I came to forgive and admire Bill for all the good policies he pursued and the results he achieved. But Hillary showed several fundamental personal attributes at that time, and her support of the war (STILL!) shows that these have not basically changed:

She is a creature of corporate interests;

She is too arrogant and certain of her own brilliance to listen to the advice of broad public constituencies;

She is fundamentally incompetent;

She is secretive;

She has no core values, but instead is mainly concerned with getting, keeping and exercising power, but without, say Johnson's or FDR's desire to get power to use power for the public good.

Hillary will never get my vote, ever. I always vote straight Democratic tickets, but when she runs in NY, for the Senate line, I vote Green. I will vote for any other Democrat in 2008, but if Hillary is the nominee, I will vote Green.

They believe they can beat her. That's why republicans have been attempting to frame her as our candidate even before the primaries, and many people on our side have obliged. It feels to me like hugging a bomb, though, and I'm not falling for it if there are other options.

Always drives them to overreact...how many times have the RW'ers worked themselves into a lather over the Clinton's only to find themselves beaten by them again!!!