are we at the point in Iraq where sectarian hatred overrides...

1. anti-American sentiment?

and

2. anti-Israeli sentiment?

Could the Sunni/Shia conflict soon become the overriding theme in the whole Middle East?

How serious is this thing and how far will it spread?

Also, was this bound to happen after Saddam died? Was this inevitable?

I read most of the ISG report, I am almost done with State of Denial, and I just dont see how anyone can fix this situation. All the plans are no plans at all. From what I understand is happening is that we take a neighborhood and hold it and when we leave, they just reclaim it and the cycle starts over again. Most of the Iraqi police and army are infiltrated with militias and we are just fueling the sectarian violence with training and ammo.

It seems to me that the only solution is to leave the region and get off our dependence on oil.

All other plans are out of our control. They would require the Iraqis to end their sectarian conflicts and that is something they just do not want to do.

I know we keep hearing that it is, but I wonder..

Sunnis and Shiites have been intermarying for years now.. Last I heard the percentage
was near 40% of Iraqis were intermarried...

How could there be such violence between the 2 groups in such a short time.?

I heard interviews from Iraqi women who testify that this civil war is being fed by the US occupiers...

Something stinks.

Am I not to believe it?

The government the Neocons installed is nothing more than a regime of collaborators with the occupiers. That is why the U.S. military has to stay, and why the collaborators so desperately need the U.S. military to stay.

People do not like being occupied by foreign powers, especially when it is accompanied by their being "shocked and awed," mass-murdered, bombed, tortured and raped. So they probably don't care for the collaborators in all of this, either.

These four sentences probably do not appear in the Iraq Study Group report, but explain better violence in Iraq than could fifty Iraq Study Group reports. That is, if only people could tell the truth behind the bright shining lies.

Have you considered that the Shia were "occupied" for the entire time of the Saddam reign?? Which was almost 30 years.

So 3 years of American occupation

vs

30 years of Sunni occupation

And you wonder why there are death squads and militias??? Its not that hard to understand.

if they hated each other so much??

Show me a report.

Now the Saudis (Sunnis) and Iranians (Shia) are exploitng the vacuum the US has opened up and they are fighting a proxy war.

The attacks are against the collaborating governmental police, services and the new army. It is the same as it has been with every other occupation in history. You can doll it up with new terms and Neoconspeak, but it is the same as it ever was.

Does this sound like Neoconspeak:

"It seems to me that the only solution is to leave the region and get off our dependence on oil."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

that the "war" may continue, with Chimp even wanting more money for more troops.

Wasnt the MSM theme and NeoCon talking about how we have to fight all the terrorists over there???

Wouldnt admitting it was a civil war mean that people DONT want to stay and have our troops killed for nothing?

I mean go look at Bush's comments today, hes still talking about the "enemy" and NOTHING about sectarian violence or Sunnis or Shia.

While I am not sure about the recommendations of the ISG report having any affect, I think the 1st part of the report was accurate in depicting the situation on the ground and that was not flattering to the Neocons. State of Denial confirms what is in the ISG Report. I am starting Fiasco soon and expect to be reading the same things.

I have a feeling that you did not read it and I suggest you do so.

http://www.c-span.org/pdf/iraq_study_group_report.pdf

and who are the sources of the report???

There is more going on in Iraq than we know.. alot more...

And the hype about sectarian violence, as if they were just waiting to kill each other... I firmly believe is total BS... I think much of the killing is by insurgents stamping out suspected collaborators with the US occupiers.

30 years of Sunni rule trumps 3 years of US rule?

But then now the Sunni's see us as being the same as Shia because we pretty much have installed them into power.

There is no denying that the Sunnis are launching attacks on both the US and the Shia. But then you have huge Shia militias roaming around too.

Its one big mess.

but, make no mistake about it, this is the very violent resistance to an occupying force and its collaborators. The same as it ever was.

there are major scores to settle - entire communities wiped out.

And there are bigger regional players pouring a lot of money and "talent" into ramping up this battlefield that the US provided for them.

sectarian mistrust between Sunnis and Shiites. I heard some one on tv comment that the divide is beginning to be felt in other Arab nations as the rivalry in Iraq intensifies. Perhaps the old divide and conquer strategy is being implemented to at least keep the Islamic nations disrupted along these lines rather than uniting against a common enemy.

That being said, I do believe that a lot of the violence has been conducted by covert ops in order to cause sectarian fears and retaliation for just this purpose. Fanning the flames.

It's not clear how much sectarian hatred there was in Iraq; it may be that this meme is overblown. It is not clear how much violence pertains to resistance against us and against those who are in bed with us; it may be that this aspect of the conflict is under-reported.

We have done almost nothing to quiet Iraq. Each step of the way, our decisions, actions, and inactions have made matters worse. And then, you hear about death squads, foreign terrorists in disguise, highly publicized torture, trips to Saudi Arabia, trumped up rhetoric about Iran, a hands-off policy on Israel/Palestein...and you wonder what's going on.

through all that is going on is the occupation. There are so many players in that country, it is no wonder that they...let alone we...know what's going on. One thing is certain, and that is that we will not leave without the oil, and as long as we stay the situation remains the same. I read an article the other day referring to who was fighting in Iraq..and the answer was...who isn't?

Iraq is now the battlefield in a proxy war between the Saudis (and the Sunnis) and the Iranians (Shia).

For a long time Iraq was stabilized by Saddam but the US opened the window of opportunity by going into Iraq and the regional powers are exploiting it to play out old grudges.

The only solution is to get out and get off oil.