Is the cost of this rescue operation on Mt. Hood really

taking away food from your table?

Is it going to force you to miss your mortgage payment next month?

Are you not going to afford to send your kids to college now?

I mean seriously. For the past 24 hours, all I've read about is phony outrage about how these missing mountain climbers are causing the earth to stop rotating on its axis.

Do you know how much this is costing people scream?

Oh the humanity...rescue workers are being forced to do what they love to do. Rescue people.

And lets be honest.

It's not costing any of us one nickel out of our monthly household budgets.

This place has seemingly lost all of its compassion, with the grave dancing and bitching about "stupid" people getting lost.

People just need to quit it.

No, people just need to find their heart.

:thumbsup:

I guess. That's what I heard. :shrug:

They are therefore evil.

And as a liberal, that confuses me. I guess I'm easily confused.

don't connect with.

It is as foreign to me as the Cyrillic alphabet.

I don't get this either here lately. We've gone from bleeding heart to no heart.

Oh, and pay the bills. Well, their survivors can pay the bills, anyway.

What is this, some sort of jealousy? These guys get to mountain climb and I can't so fuck em?

and the predictable happened.

I've seen idiots playing in storm surf. I told them it was dangerous, and
I told them that if they got in trouble there was no way I was going in
after them.

Which is redundant, because white = rich. Or so I'm told.

Unbelievable. This is DEMOCRATIC Underground, right?

Without it, we are darwinian brutes in a harsh jungle ...

:sarcasm:

Seriously...if they need rescue, rescue them. People need help all the time. And we all pay for it. That's the way it should work.

but this is becoming quickly a body recovery operation, never pleasant... and truly a training exercise that will serve SAR personnel well the next time.

As to haert, The country is becoming rather mean, and I think it is a symtom of soemthing wider and more profound due to what is happening in DC... Katrina was the tip of that iceberg.. it is quickly becoming a me and I only attitude since that is the message from up top

And there is no heart missing from my chest. Compassion for my fellow human beings is intact.

Good post, cboy4. :thumbsup:

following your posts, and you are certainly not one of the people I'm talking about. ;)

and God save us both if ever we were in trouble and one of the "compassionate" DUers was our only hope.

These people are phony as all get out. I am embarrassed for them.

For alot of people out there, it's a quick emotional high for them. They get off on it. And this isn't a trait owned by one part of the human spectrum; it cuts across all lines. And there are are those who think it's alot more fun; I don't know what to say about that kind of thinking.

not a single one.

the Automobile Industry, the Savings and Loans, the healthcare insurance and salaries of politicians, and pay for the war in Iraq....guess you can add one more teeny bit to that load! No problem! :shrug:

Sick to death of all the pedantic armchair quarterbacks who obviously never go outside a day in their lives.

Thank you.

:)

dead. They brought his body down today.

As to the other two, last time I watched the news, the speculation was that they had fallen. BTW, the one they did find had injured his arm (I believe), and that's why the other two left, trying to get help for their companion.

I hope, hope, hope that they find the other two climbers alive and safe.

:(

Am watching the news, and word is that they do think the climbers fell, and that area has a lot of snow and rocks, making it very dangerous for searchers, not to mention the climbers.

The good news, however, is that the good weather should hold through tomorrow. The plan is that SAR will head back up the mountain in the morning.

Oh, geeze.

Maybe tomorrow will be better. :(

Though I know that that is not unusual. And I echo your thought: maybe tomorrow will be better.

I have an ex-boyfriend who taught me to rock climb years ago. He's a great climber, not only on rock, but mountains, including ice climbing. He teaches climbing with the Mountaineering Club, and I trust him greatly where climbing is concerned. But even experienced climbers can suffer mishaps, so hopefuly, that's what happened and even more hopefully, the men are alive and well.

If there is qa chance they are alive... you go after them....If they do not find them within next 24 hours you call it off.

to call it off?


One man said surviving the elements on Mount Hood is possible -- he and two companions did for 17 days nearly 31 years ago.

Randy Knapp was 18 years old, Matt Meacham and Gary Schneider were both 16 in 1976.

Randy Knapp survived 13 nights on Mt. Hood

They got caught in a storm and after four days of trying to get down the mountain, hunkered down in a snow cave.

That's where they lived for 13 nights.

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_121506_news_hood_survivor.128685ae.html

It was "simple". :hi:

On Monday, Anderson Cooper was talking to two men who had survived over a week on Mt. Rainier. Lived in snow caves.

Never give up.

there is a point that the operation moves from rescue to body recovery.

I have no in or out into this particular rescue BUT... sooner or later it will move to that phase.

This is the grim reality of rescue and each rescue is unique...

For the latest on the climbers, please see my post, #28.

And eventually two guys stumbled out of the mountains and helped to save the 16 that were still there.

What an asshole post.

remarkable stories of survival I think I've ever read about.

Just unbelievable.

There were 45 people on that plane, and 29 of them died on the mountain. The rest of them had to resort to cannibalism to stay alive. They were there for 72 days.

If they had continued to search, some of those people who survived the initial crash might not have died of their injuries or might not have died in the avalanche several days later.

Read "Alive" by Piers Paul Read. It's an amazing book.

There is hope, but it is slim. You go with that until there is none left.

:thumbsup:

not all of us need saving or rescued and some never will while some will a lot, thats one of the many reasons I pay TAXes. Worry not who will pay for it, its paid, just be thankful for it.

Although some people here seem to be in favor of a la carte public services. I don't get it.

Actually, I don't even think all Republicans are this petty.

and LEFT libertarians can have this in oommon

Take an otherwise local news story about a run away bride, or a brain dead patient or a family that made the wrong turn down a mountain road. This is nothing more than a local story being used on the people who watch the talking heads as a diversion from reality, from an illegal war that marks yet another failure in the long list of failures by the man we are forced to call President.


The question: What is really happening that they are not reporting?

I'm not focusing on the media in this thread.

I am focusing on people who are complaining that the people lost on that mountain are not worth the time, effort, or cost of the rescue operation.

Stay focused people.

The Washington Post has two stories above the front page fold about the war.

A story about the climbers is on page three.

So you want to try again regarding media coverage of the rescue taking space away from stories about the war?

The lack of compassion is astounding.

I'm not too concerned about the money; many of the rescuers
are from our various standing forces, and they:

a) need training in real-life situations or we'd need to
simulate close-to-real-life situations for them

b) are on our dime anyway

But I do worry about the live of the rescuers. We've apparently
reached the point where it is entirely possible that a whole
passle of rescuers will themselves be killed or injured attempting
to locate (at this point, not necessarily rescue alive) the two
remaining missing climbers.

I'm not sure that's a worthy tradeoff.

Perhaps we ought to just require that hikers going into certain
perilous situations *MUST* carry emergency locator transmitters.
No ELT, no rescue attempt.

Tesha

train for situations like this.

They are willing to die to save others.

Ask any of them. That's what heroes do.

As for the ELT's....it's good to carry them.

But let's for argument's sake agree that people shouldn't be rescued if they don't have an ELT.

How do you know if they do or don't have one?

How would someone feel if the body of a hiker was recovered six months later with an ELT on him/her and no attempt was made because that device failed and it was assumed they didn't have one with them?

So do you see the danger of placing those kinds of conditions on rescues?

> The rescuers are all fine.

Actually, they are *NOT* fine. Today, they are climbing
through avalanche territory, probing in a "pole line"
for the two missing climbers. But meanwhile, they are
very much in jeopardy from further avalanching.

Meanwhile, ELTs are pretty reliable; tens of thousands of
pilots count on them every day.

Tesha

people volunteer for this.

They are rescuers.

They rescue.

They want to.

And they should.

Have more faith in these experts.

because firefighters love what they do?

If I was a search and rescue volunteer, I would find your post very offensive.

Yes, they LOVE what they do, but that doesn't mean that people should continuously cause volunteers to have to put their lives in danger, especially during the holidays. These rescuers have families too.

In short, yes, everyone should be rescued, and yes, in some cases, compensation should be required.

ETA: typo

argument doesn't wash.

The reason you think you'd find my post very offensive is because you are not a search and rescue volunteer.

I have every confidence in the world they can get the job done safely, and I'm sure they will.

They would be glad to hear I have faith in them.

> You're comparing an intentional act with an accident, so your
> argument doesn't wash.

It's an intentional act to march off into the winter weather
(apparently, without the full complement of needed equipment)
rather than to stay safe at home.

Gamble your own life? Okay. Force some set of rescuers to
gamble theirs for your personal pleasure? Not okay.

Tesha

to stay warm in the winter. Should the fire department not respond to a home fire caused by such an intentional act?

Curiously, the space heater fire costs you a ton of money
unless you've paid for fire insurance ahead of time.

But feel free to put up your next straw man and we'll
see if he burns as readily.

Tesha

http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/adventures/1628791.html

Mountaineer Steve Rollins figures he has worked nearly 100 rescues on the icy heights of Oregon's 11,239-ft. Mount Hood. He has dropped by rope from helicopters near the peak using night vision, slogged through whiteouts and climbed into crevasses. Between gigs, the 29-year-old holds down a computer job with Nike. But like the other members of Portland Mountain Rescue, his lifesaving work is pro bono: "You could offer me a paycheck, but it wouldn't make the job any more rewarding."

The long term suffering; the medically uninsured. Boring and less dramatic, but a real need nonetheless, and much more expensive.

Why do you think these people are so special? Because the media chose to cover them?

What do we as a society owe you, personally? If you have enough to live a middle class life, why do you need more when others don't even have the basics.

I'm assuming you believe we should rescue you no matter where you go or what you do AND bear the cost of it.

Only the poor? Never the privileged? Never the careless?

Why is that I wonder?

I have compassion for all people because I don't judge.

And here you are, another person talking about "the cost of it."

I guess not one word of my OP sunk in, did it?

What rights do they want anyway?

I'm assuming you believe we should rescue you no matter where you go or what you do AND bear the cost of it.

Yes.

That's what rescue systems are for. Most people who get into "extreme" sports are very conscientous and passionate about what they do. Generally safety is the highest priority on any outing I'm a part of. But sometimes people make poor decisions, and sometimes good people have bad days--that's no excuse to metaphorically fuck 'em--or worse yet run through some algorithm to decide if someone is worthy of a rescue.

Wilderness rescues happen often enough, and most are never mentioned on the news (besides local reporting) I'm not sure why this one fired up the media.

rescue workers are being forced to do what they love to do.

Do you really believe that? Do you really think they love to put their lives on the line for some kind of Adrenalin rush? I think not.
Perhaps you should bring your feelings to the ski resorts in that area.

They warn all people who ski that if you go beyond their marked areas you will be charged for rescue attempts. Tell them they have a phony outrage. Here is a link you can start with.
http://mtbachelor.com/winter/services/health_and_safety/programs/index.html
If you are a mountain climber and you put your life on the line for a sport that can and will kill you for just one mistake thats fine.
Thats your ass but when you involve others that is where my view changes.

doing right now.

It's what they train and train and train for.

You really should talk to emergency workers and learn more about them before discount their love of what they do.

I think they'd really be insulted by your lack of faith that they will get the job done, and get it done safely.

they will get the job done? Where in the hell did I say that? Reread my post.

safely, you wouldn't be so furious about this situation, now would you>

And by the way, I haven't even begun to hammer you on your lack of compassion.

have the compassion to question the cost of ignorance?

that we do not have unlimited resources. Therefore, we need to consider how to best use the resources we have.

That does not mean that we should not attempt to rescue people who find themselves in dire circumstances. It might mean that we require that those folks take measures that might facilitate heir rescue in some way. Electronic devices can reduce search time. Climbers can purchase insurance policies that cover the costs of evacuation.

I'm not suggesting that we forego rescue and recovery attempts for climbers who forego the use of electronic devices or choose not to purchase insurance. But climbers could certainly be incentivized to take such measures.

I note that the body of the climber who was found was located because they were able to triangulate his approximate location based on cell phone usage. Too bad similar information is not available regarding the other two climbers.

now on mountains through the West.

Resources are stretched thin during fire season when fires are burning everywhere in 6-7-8 states or more.

I have not heard talk of having to call in extra manpower from Washington to the north or California to the south or Idaho to the east.

So I don't think the situation of unlimited resources is applicable to this situation.

At least you sound compassionate in your response, in that you are not suggesting we don't rescue.

is that climbers should be incentivized to take measures that facilitate their rescue should it become necessary. That means an electronic signaling device.

World class and experienced climbers have already invested considerable funds in gear, equipment, conditioning and travel. The additional costs to them would be marginal. They would benefit from shorter search times and the public would benefit because the amount of time that personnel are required to devote to any given search is reduced. That can be important if there are multiple simulataneous rescue efforts.

Here is a link to an interesting article regarding rescue cost recovery which is focused primarily on Mt. McKinnley.
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pdfs/MRcost.pdf

I largely agree with its conclusions. Charging for rescue is not a good idea. However, I do believe it is a good idea to provide incentives to climbers that encourage them to take measures to facilitate their quick location should rescue become necessary. As I recall, that aspect is not discussed in this article.

They so asked for it! :sarcasm:

be of GREAT importance to some big wig....i winder who they really are....some rich family relations

come in a time of WAR and our miltary operations spread thin and a C40 and several schnuk(sp) helicopters and other equiptment is ordered to rescue these guys....hmmm?...i'm just saying

Attention please! The shiny object is distracting you! A steady diet of media-manufactured outrage is unhealthy.

that makes that behavior not a public responsibility?

If I fall and break my leg in my house I can't expect free rescue. I have to pay for the ambulance (or I have to purchase insurance to cover the cost or some portion of it).

You will be billed later. If you're lucky, your insurance will cover it.

You won't be lying there in pain, surrounded by people arguing about whether it's economically beneficial to help you.

you are correct AS LONG AS THIS IS A PRIVATELY OWNED COMPANY.

The city will charge you a nominal fee, and those were imposed to discourage frivolous use of services

By they way, if you called 9.11 and you still beleive you are paying for the whole cost of deploying four firefighters in a fire engine and two paramedics, at minimum, I do have a huge bridge to sell you... beccause you are not.

Oh and in bad sections of town you need to add police to the mix

I live here in Portland, and yes it does cost to get those people 'rescued'
they should never have been up there in the first place, as I dont like to
see any casualties, but they have to take responsibility for their own actions,
the cost is estimated in the thousands

We don't have mountains in Michigan, or large wilderness areas (maybe in the UP, but not under the bridge). We do have idiot ice fisherman who go out on Lake St. Clair when the lake isn't completely frozen, and the Macomb County Sheriff (Hackel, a dem)instituted a policy of only one rescue for free-repeat idiots have to pay for any additional ice rescues.

Lake St. Clair (or any of the larger Great Lakes) are not good places to ice fish, at least not anymore. It doesn't get cold enough in southern Michigan anymore for the lakes to freeze over. There are plenty of smaller inland lakes that are shallow that will freeze over, and are much safer for that kind of thing. Of course, with all the 40 degree weather we've been having this year, there's no ice fishing at all going on.

Because Kelly James' family has set up a rescue fund to repay the Hood River Sheriff Department.

http://www.oregonlive.com/newslogs/oregonian/index.ssf?/mtlogs/olive_oregonian_news/archives/2006_12.html#217654

Feel free to criticize them for asking for others to donate money instead of just writing a big, fat check. Because all climbers are rich, you know. :sarcasm: