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Well, I am really confused - set me straight DU friends about the US and the world

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:12 PM
Original message
Well, I am really confused - set me straight DU friends about the US and the world
So I hear tidbits about east Timor. I hear things about Somalia, Nigeria and the list goes on and changes from time to time.

And what do I so often hear? Blame the US and it's leaders (Ford being one of them, thought I would drop his name since he is the man of the day on DU).

We enabled, we disabled, we sent money, we didn't send money, we should have done more, we should have done less.

But ONE thing still bothers me when we discuss places and wars and such: What about the people waging them? How much blame do they deserve? Or are they all thoughtless robots under the thumb of a white guy in a white house.

No matter which side we give something to, or don't give, there are still leaders and people who are free to choose and they choose war and death.

We could leave Iraq today, and the killing there would get worse for awhile. Sure, we removed Saddam which was a stop gap there to the violence (sorta) but the cold hard fact is that there are some damn fucked up people in the world whose only view of peace is kill everyone else.

So YEAH blame the US for giving people weapons, it's logical. But we also need to blame the people who are willing to use them. I've owned weapons in my life. I could go out and buy stuff to make nasty little weapons. But I don't. You don't. And even if you did, you would not use them.

Sure, things are complex - they always are. But these are real people, often not the same color as us, and yet we treat them as objects which are unable to think and need the great white hope to solve their issues for them. They are not liable, maybe because we see them as less human and therefore not capable of doing the right thing.

A man sees two people fighting. He tosses one of them gun. The guy who gave the gun is an enabler, but the person who uses it is the killer and is worse imho.

Peace is harder to work for than war. And too many people the world over take the easy way out.

And that is their fault as much as it is anyone else's.

Bu then maybe I am totally wrong and ignorant on it all. Maybe we to blame for all the ills in all the regions where there are wars going on. Maybe people are not responsible for what they do. And maybe if the US ceased to exist today the whole world would sit down and sing happy peace songs.

In summary: The world is a sucky place at times. The few enable the many to do evil unto others. The many out number the few. Maybe peace starts in each of us. And perhaps true peace will be found when we realize that killing others is not the solution, but standing as one for the good of all is.

Shame on us humans. We had it all and are throwing it all away so that our own few years on this planet will be more fun for us than for some other poor sap.

It is better to give than to receive - for when we flip it we become greedy and selfish, wanting more for ourselves than others - and that is the basis of hate and war. Fear.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. I thought you left?
Edited on Wed Dec-27-06 04:22 PM by donco6
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. guess you missed the explanation and apology.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. If I'd wanted to be rude, I could have been.
But I didn't.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. It's alright, was a dumb move on my part
guess I had it coming :)

Life goes on.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. We are certainly to blame for Iraq. nt.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. .
Of course, ideally, if there is a crisis in a country, it would be best if the people of this country could take care of that problem in the best way possible themselves.
But often and concerning the examples you mentioned, I don't think that it's about those who wage these wars. Other countries, especially the wealthy and powerful countries, sometimes have the obligation to give those a voice who are persecuted in their own country.

I think many agree that one should have gotten engaged in Rwanda earlier, for example. Not for taking away the responsibility of those who have the power and who chose war and genocide, but to help those who were in danger and without the necessary power.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. It is always much more complicated than
who we gave the gun to.
Often war follows multi-national corporations (coddled and encouraged by our government) into under-developed countries. I think that's how Somalia fell apart.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. The problem is reliance on "leaders".
The "leaders" get the applause or the blame for what we allow them to do. We, in alleged democracies, elect leaders then decry their mistakes, failures, avarice, criminality, and conveniently claim not to have known what he/she were going to do.

People living in authoritarian nations, at least, have the excuse that they could do nothing else.

"Just following orders" was, and is, a feeble excuse for murder.

The trouble with "strong" leaders is that they will make decisions, usually to enhance or preserve their leadership, that requires someone to be sacrificed.

If we must have "leaders" I'm much more grateful for "weak" leaders who have to keep an eye on the populace and constantly watch their back.

Most people, around the world, in every nation, no matter what their government, culture, religion, or society, demands would rather live in peace and get on with their lives.

Or as Mencken put it about politicians (which I think should apply to all "leaders":

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. just adding one point
those few that enable, also often brainwash, abuse and manipulate the vulnerable, the many that do evil.

The cycle needs to be broken, perhaps, it is from within, as you say.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Seek and ye shall find...
Edited on Wed Dec-27-06 05:14 PM by stillcool47
lots of answers I have found here.. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/index.html
Human nature is a known quality. What you put in is what you get out, and putting a human being in certain circumstances gets you certain results. We are all the same, we are just told different things.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html
The Origins of the Overclass
By Steve Kangas
The wealthy have always used many methods to accumulate wealth, but it was not until the mid-1970s that these methods coalesced into a superbly organized, cohesive and efficient machine. After 1975, it became greater than the sum of its parts, a smooth flowing organization of advocacy groups, lobbyists, think tanks, conservative foundations, and PR firms that hurtled the richest 1 percent into the stratosphere.
The origins of this machine, interestingly enough, can be traced back to the CIA. This is not to say the machine is a formal CIA operation, complete with code name and signed documents. (Although such evidence may yet surface — and previously unthinkable domestic operations such as MK-ULTRA, CHAOS and MOCKINGBIRD show this to be a distinct possibility.) But what we do know already indicts the CIA strongly enough. Its principle creators were Irving Kristol, Paul Weyrich, William Simon, Richard Mellon Scaife, Frank Shakespeare, William F. Buckley, Jr., the Rockefeller family, and more. Almost all the machine's creators had CIA backgrounds.

During the 1970s, these men would take the propaganda and operational techniques they had learned in the Cold War and apply them to the Class War. Therefore it is no surprise that the American version of the machine bears an uncanny resemblance to the foreign versions designed to fight communism. The CIA's expert and comprehensive organization of the business class would succeed beyond their wildest dreams. In 1975, the richest 1 percent owned 22 percent of America’s wealth. By 1992, they would nearly double that, to 42 percent — the highest level of inequality in the 20th century.



http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
A Timeline of CIA Atrocities
By Steve Kangas
The following timeline describes just a few of the hundreds of atrocities and crimes committed by the CIA. (1)

CIA operations follow the same recurring script. First, American business interests abroad are threatened by a popular or democratically elected leader. The people support their leader because he intends to conduct land reform, strengthen unions, redistribute wealth, nationalize foreign-owned industry, and regulate business to protect workers, consumers and the environment. So, on behalf of American business, and often with their help, the CIA mobilizes the opposition. First it identifies right-wing groups within the country (usually the military), and offers them a deal: "We'll put you in power if you maintain a favorable business climate for us." The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book: propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator’s security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder. The victims are said to be "communists," but almost always they are just peasants, liberals, moderates, labor union leaders, political opponents and advocates of free speech and democracy. Widespread human rights abuses follow.

This scenario has been repeated so many times that the CIA actually teaches it in a special school, the notorious "School of the Americas." (It opened in Panama but later moved to Fort Benning, Georgia.) Critics have nicknamed it the "School of the Dictators" and "School of the Assassins." Here, the CIA trains Latin American military officers how to conduct coups, including the use of interrogation, torture and murder.

The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that by 1987, 6 million people had died as a result of CIA covert operations. (2) Former State Department official William Blum correctly calls this an "American Holocaust."


The American Empire: 1992 to present
from the book
Killing Hope
by William Blum
2004 edition
Following its bombing of Iraq in 1991, the United States wound up with military bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates.
Following its bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the United States wound up with military bases in Kosovo, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary, Bosnia and Croatia.
Following its bombing of Afghanistan in 2001-2, the United States wound up with military bases in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Yemen and Djibouti.
Following its bombing and invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States wound up with Iraq.
This is not very subtle foreign policy. Certainly not covert. The men who run the American Empire are not easily embarrassed.
And that is the way the empire grows-a base in every neighborhood, ready to be mobilized to put down any threat to imperial rule, real or imagined. Fifty-eight years after world War II ended, the United States still has major bases in Germany and Japan; fifty ears after the end of the Korean War, tens of thousands of American armed forces continue to be stationed in South Korea.http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/American_Empire_KH2004.html
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. teenagers are stubborn and easily manipulated into believing they are doing
something good

It is breaking my BF's heart and soul to know that his ex-stepson will be headed to Afghanistan in a few weeks.

He has tried to talk sense into him over the last few years, but this kid has been brainwashed into thinking he is doing something good for our country. The recruiters really pulled a number on him. Unfortunately it may be years before he realizes his mistake...

I watched the same thing happen to my baby brother over 15 years ago when he signed up so he could get an education and then war was declared on Iraq. He is a very smart young man and within a few months of his return when he had access to better news he realized he had been lied to and manipulated. He has more than made up for his misjudgement.

All friends, family, parents, etc can do is hope that they come back in one piece and are able to understand what really happened.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-27-06 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. We do blame them
I think the blame is spread, but when the self-appointed policeman turns out to be the one passing the arms to the crooks, it's right that it should be condemned. And when many of us criticise US policy, it's because we know it's capable of better. Otherwise we wouldn't bother nearly as much.

I really don't agree though that the killer's necessarily worse than the enabler. The killer may be in a situation where killing is considered either necessary or normal by all sides. The enabler should be readier to say "No, it isn't," and to offer something better. But too often it just keeps enabling the killing for its own short-term gain. That lazy habit's now becoming national geopolitical doctrine, and that's making the world a whole lot suckier.
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