My final word

As some of you might know, I've been engaged in a debate over at the about.com Civil Liberties boards with a few people that can only be described as unaligned Freepers. People who SHOULD be over at Freak Republic yet somehow managed to avoid it. Well, after a series of exchanges, I'm bowing out of the conversation. Tired of pounding sand down a rathole and shouting down a well.

This was my final post there. I'm done.

*******

Except it's not just the Dems who've said think the warrantless wiretaps go too far.

This administration is so out of control it's frightening and, as long as you yourselves aren't adversely affected, you'll go along with it. You can't for a minute tell me it's not completely partisan and you'd accept all this from a Democratic administration. You can't stop whining about Clinton, and, compared to this meathead and his minions, Clinton was the soul of discretion.

There is plenty of evidence (mostly ignored by what you laughingly would call the "liberal media") that this administration used faulty evidence to convince people to go along with an attack on Iraq. It wasn't Saddam who threw weapons inspectors (who, as it turns out, were pretty sure that there weren't any WMDs by the time that happened) but the U.S., who intended to attack Iraq regardless of what anyone thought about the idea.

It's obvious that you folks will continue to excuse this administration's excesses to the point it no longer matters... Iran's next on the hit-list. Let's add ANOTHER war we don't have the resources to win, and continue to flush our treasury down the toilet. China already owns 10% of our debt. I'm sure you're quite happy with owing the commies and giving them the power to completely shut down our economy should they desire to do so.

News flash. Even in the BEST circumstances we can't compete with China's growing economic strength. But these aren't the best circumstances. China still maintains trade tariffs against us yet we don't do the same, giving America corporations carte blanche to make obscene profits at the expense of the American worker. We're practically HANDING China the opportunity to become the next superpower, while stealing the future from our own children.

Even a lot of RWers are starting to get it. Pat Buchanan and William F. Buckley certainly do. There is NOTHING conservative about this administration. They're "catapulting the propaganda" with such gusto, aided by a compliant media machine, that we're being buried in enough bullshit to fill ten stockyards a day. Everything has become spin and only a few lone voices in the wilderness have the guts to point it out.

I think you people have hitched your wagon to this guy and his bumbling crew and can't for a minute consider the possibility that you made a drastic mistake. So be it. I just wish you weren't dragging the rest of us along for the ride over the rapidly approaching cliff.

The fact is that the right is just simply wrong. Economically, politically, strategically, and socially. You willingly grant corporations power they shouldn't have, give aid and comfort to our largest economic adversary, punish people for telling the truth, throw our resources away with all the discipline of a drunken sailor on shore leave, and undermine the role of the middle class in society. And that's just for STARTERS. You claim to want smaller government, yet support unprecedented growth in government, and interference in sectors that should (rightfully) remain outside government control.

I surrender. I came here to check the barometer and find, to my disgust and dismay, that you folks are so complacent that you'll excuse any excess in the name of your precious ideology, even when it should be perfectly apparent that they're betraying YOUR ideology as well as America's future.

If by some miracle we manage to escape the looming disaster and manage to inject some sense into this government before it's too late, I'm sure you'll be lining up to condemn anything done by a more reasonable and rational administration and/or congress. But, on the other hand, if things go from bad to worse and we're all ass-deep in alligators ten years from now, just remember. We tried to warn you. Go ahead and blame it all on the people who saw it coming.

I'm sure you will anyway. Anything else would be unthinkable.

It's really hard to have a sane conversation with brick walls!!

We need fighters like you here. The fact is that its up to folks like us that are fighting everyday to make this country a better place for us and our children. Quitting only feeds into the fuckers agenda - they want us to quit. The simple fact is we can't quit.

A movie character once put it better than I ever could: "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?..."

Well...

I'm just done trying to talk sense into THOSE people. I've said what I needed to say there. At least for now.

I left after 9/11, came back for about a year some months later, and then abandoned it for the past few years while I posted here and concentrated on my writing career. I just don't have the emotional resources to battle with people who can't see what's written on the wall. I don't think I can paint the picture any clearer for them.

They will never see the clear picture you paint for them. Who said, "There are none so blind as those who will not see."? I have two people in my life who are like this. I've decided there is no way to reach them. So now we have meaningless conversation about safe topics & I wonder if they also sense that we no longer have any depth to our relationship.

Good rant.

is that I first met up with these people in the days before 9/11 and they were constantly ranting about the excesses of the Clinton administration--which, admittedly, there were a few. But, now that we're seeing a time in which those excesses look astoundingly minor, they are completely blind to it.

I wish I could say I was stunned, but I'm not. Not really. I've slid "left" over the past couple of years, but that's mostly because I'm a mirror of what I see. I believe that I'm part of a "radical middle" (to borrow a line from Thom Hartmann) and that this right-ward slide is not only a bad idea, but almost entirely an illusion fostered by a complicit media machine.

normally, metaphor isn't so lost on me. Also, I didn't see the glaringly obvoious "there" in the intro, until the second read. Glad to see you'll be sticking around.

LOL. And I simply don't see that happening. :)

talk about taking a header into the pavement!

to be tombstoned. LOL

If wishes were fishes -- that's the kind of writing that you hope against hope someone sets aside and, in weeks or months or years, turns to and patiently notices that you express a desperate, logical perspective not from a partisan point of view but a human one. I like to think of our voices as individual vibrations that added together make a symphony that finally rings true with the sheep. Thanks for your part -- and some fine writin' too.

has really improved my writing skills. My wife used to give me a hard time about all the time I spent here until it started to show through in other areas (she's also one of my editors). A few days ago someone suggested I should try to get into speech-writing for one candidate or another and I wish I knew how. I'm primarily self-taught, which means I don't have any official education in the craft, but there was once a time that people respected those who taught themselves. I wonder, considering the atmosphere surrounding higher education these days, that those times might end up coming again.

half of their "debate skill" simply comes from wearing down the competition.. They aren't right and they don't have facts on their side, but they win by wearing you out.. Their staying power is the only thing they have going for them.. Don't give it to them..

But I definitely can't maintain it for long. It's too frustrating. They take their position and hold it against ANY counter-argument. It's nearly impossible to determine if anything you say is getting a reaction other than an instantaneous rejection.

and have a tall iced tea. This stuff is bad for your blood pressure.

Well done!

I think I'll do just that.

"I think you people have hitched your wagon to this guy and his bumbling crew and can't for a minute consider the possibility that you made a drastic mistake. So be it. I just wish you weren't dragging the rest of us along for the ride over the rapidly approaching cliff."

First thing I've read this morning.

Thanks. recommended

It seems that magical thinking is hard wired into our psyche. I can't explain why some can think across these boundaries, but pig headedness flourishes outside the heads of pigs. The stubbornness you encounter is, ironically, part of the survival mechanism that we have evolved. It's just that in our modern world, the knowledge base progresses so dynamically, that this reliable mechanism lets us down. Many have learned to balance it with confidence in their intellectual faculties and the capacity to synthesize new knowledge. Plenty of them around DU. Others consider a challenge to their memes an assault on their being, and they just dig in harder.

I can't blame you for wanting a respite. It will be well deserved. But ultimately the challenge persists and we will have to go back and wear them down. Breakthroughs are rare. I liken it more to mountains being worn out by the rain. Progress is slow, and hard to measure, although an occasional chunk gets torn loose.

Fortunately, this place is ideal for sharpening your tools. People I know will not argue politics with me, though around here I'm a minor light. DU makes you strong. Glad you're here. You and others around here make me examine my own writing skills, and inspire me to do more.

Friends chastise me for "arguing with idiots." But there's a job to be done. I'm glad you're doing your part.

--IMM

as someone either you do, or you DON'T want argue politics with... It's usually an issue better avoided in general, simply because it fires up passions that will too quickly disrupt a public list. There's one author who leans Liberatarian who enjoys our exchanges because, as she says, she might not always agree with me, but I'm very good at making my points.

And the funny thing about "magical thinking" is that I live on the edge of the pagan community, and magical thinking is part and parcel of what they're about. Sometimes my duty there seems to be to poke holes in preconceptions...I take very little for granted and am always willing to point out something I think doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

It's the part of our instinct that recognizes causality, an indispensable part of our awareness. But there can be false connections which need to be disposed of in the modern age. Of course, you know that.

Not surprised that you've built up a rep. Smart, articulate, and immersed in the issues of the day, it's to be expected.

The meaning of libertarian (small l) was a hot issue around here a few weeks ago. I'm dismayed that RW so-called free traders have appropriated that term. To me, it means nobody can tell you what to do. There are exceptions because we participate in a modern society and we have responsibilities as citizens. But I think of myself as a libertarian who recognizes social responsibility and that's not a contradiction. Not to be confused with the Libertarian Party, basically freepers who break with the fold on some social issues like religion or smoking dope.

--IMM

I definitely know the difference between big "L" and little "L" libertarianism. The author I'm talking about is pretty RW economically, but more left when it comes to social issues. She hates this administration as much as we do, but has different ideas as to what the problems really are. It's more of the taxation is legalized theft, we shouldn't distribute wealth, etc.

I'm pretty much a believer in individual liberty myself. I don't want my neighbors telling me what to do. I believe we have some social contracts to observe, but there should be some limits there as well.

And it's funny about the causality thing. I like to point out that "divination" works because our brains see and can analyze patterns. I really get miffed about people who use such tools to justify decisions they've already made and say "well, I did a reading and it said..."

I believe that a clear recognition of patterns of causality, and the interactions of humans operating individually, yet part as a greater whole, are the true foundations of what they call "magick." By setting goals, and concentrating on those goals, we pick out a path toward the result we want. There's nothing mystical about it, in my opinion. If you channel your energy towards a goal, and others work to help make that goal a reality, it's not mystical--it's reality.

Illuminating stuff.

I used to teach math to kids. It kind of surprised them how much emphasis I put on patterns and symbols. Not mystical, just tools we rely on to build the model of reality we all carry around in our heads and then to transmit the information we need to carry on and enrich our existence. Nice to share this with you.

--IMM

Well, higher math anyway. But I understand patterns and causality very well. I think it's because I'm an observer of human behavior and interactions. I used to really piss off my peers because I'd ask weird questions--like "why do you think that?" and really expected an answer that made sense. I found out pretty quickly that most people DON'T have an answer to questions like that. They just DO.

Another thing that people have told me is that math and language really aren't all that different and, if I can parse language, I should be able to do the same thing with mathematical equations. For some reason I can't. I have an issue with sequencing, I believe. I could do an polynomial problem over and over again and never come up with the same answer, much less the right answer. If I'm in practice, though, I can do normal math equations in my head...including multiplication and division of fractions.

The universe is amazing, and it's really interesting to see how some of the theories now being put forward by quantum physicists correspond to some of the mysticism of the past. I find the whole many-worlds theory not only intriguing, but quite useful, since my books are based on the premise.

Definition of mathematics: A system of manipulating symbols to solve problems.

And may I jump up and down over the math-language connection. That's exactly how I taught it. I found that teaching algebra was mostly teaching reading. Once you have the equation, the solution is there. Solving the equation is mechanical, a matter of executing simple operations in the right order.

The most frequently expressed difficulty was, as my students would say, "word problems." And I would respond, "That's because you can't read." (Note that I would only get so blunt with the ones that knew me well enough to know I wasn't insulting them.)

Part of what I was trying to convey came from an insight I had in a freshman English course, where the instructor spent a week analyzing a simple declarative first sentence in a short story. It took some time, but what dawned on me was how much each word counts. I carried this over to deciphering math problems and had them read it like it was poetry. "Can't do it? Read it again. The answer is in the problem."

I'd say that any problem you might have, you have correctly identified as sequencing. Given the equation, properly stated, the solution lies in the "standard order of operations."

BTW, I was not a math major and didn't go beyond basic calculus myself. So when you say "higher mathematics" I get just as fearful as the next guy.

Another observation I'll make: the apparent correspondence between mysticism and quantum physics rests more on the nature of patterns themselves than on any real connection between the two. But then maybe we're coming full circle, and asking, is there a pattern to existence?

--IMM

I don't know about the apparent connection between mysticism and quantum physics being simply a matter of patterns...if you delve into it, you find that some mystics had some rather intriguing insights about things they couldn't have ever grasped through normal means.

I think we're learning that more things are possible than we'd ever thought.

Theoretically possible is not the same as practically possible. At least so far. I probably wouldn't be the first to plunge into a worm hole.

--IMM

to another universe. LOL

I'm more of a skeptic than a lot of people I know, but I'm also skeptical about anything being beyond the realm of possibility. I take the universe as the agnostics take the question of God.