Atheists are the most distrusted minority

http://www.ur.umn.edu/unsreleases/find.php?ID=2816&from=umnnews

When I criticize religion around here, my posts tend to get deleted. I hope this one won't get deleted, but the fact that that happens around here is just another example of what is mentioned in the above link. It is acceptable in our society to criticize atheists or equate them with immorality/amorality (I've even heard people on Air America do it… thanks a lot Randi), but it is not acceptable for atheists to criticize religion.

Just look at what's going on in the world today: Muslim terrorism, the Israeli occupation/oppression of Palestinians, and of course, Christians egging on the current slaughterfest/torture party in Iraq, Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India, the Muslim-Christian conflict in Sudan, etc. As of right now the most immoral activities taking place on a large scale are either created by or exacerbated by religion. If you look through your history books, you'll find pretty much the same thing, yet it is we who are immoral?

Why?

Because we don't need to be threatened with eternal torture nor bribed with eternal pleasure to engage in moral behavior? If anything, that religionists require such outrageous motivations to act morally is an indictment of religion, not of atheists.

Atheists and agnostics make up around 10% of our population, give or take. Out of 535 elected officials representing the nation in congress, what percent do you think are atheist or agnostic? In all of history, there has only ever been one openly atheist serving in congress, and the only way he got away with it was by not telling anyone he was atheist until he was out of office. Not only are we completely unrepresented in congress, but an openly atheist person cannot get elected.

Pardon me for ranting.

Breaking the bonds of religious dogma is one of the most liberating of experiences. Those who fail to do so or are afraid to do so cannot handle the ambiguities of life. Heaven is a crutch for a fear of death and finality to one's existence.

J

Hmmmm....

:D Just kidding. Couldn't pass that one up.

FWIW, I believe folks is folks.

NGU.

Am I the only person who remembers that old Wendy's commercial?

Religious threads get put on there as well as those that are atheistic or in some cases just an excuse to bash religion. I'm going to assume that yours is a seriuos post.

I haven't been at DU for very long and I've spent pretty much all my time at the Lounge.

When I went to post this, I just automatically went for the General Discussion thread because it's one of the very few other boards I know about or have posted in. Had I known about the Religion and Theology forum, I'd have posted this there. My apologies.

I was just responding to your concerns about the post being deleted.

My experience is that a lot of religious, or atheistic (religious by default in a sense) threads get moved to the Religion and Theology section.

Personally, I think that as Democrats,we encompass a wide variety of beliefs and non-beliefs, and if we want to have a big tent, we have to stop bashing each other over the head, or attacking one's beliefs or non-beliefs.

I think that one can reasonably assume that if one is a liberal and a Christian, that they are on the same team as one who is a liberal and an atheist. And yet there are often threads that start out with the seeming intent to inflame passion on one side or the other. (Of course that can be done with a lot of topics, but religion, or non-religion, is an especially dry tinder box of emotion for some people. Myself sometimes included)

"(religious by default in a sense)"

To better understand atheists and agnostics. Just a suggestion. :hi:

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

There's also an Atheists and Agnostics forum. We welcome you. Ath and Ags aren't allowed to start new threads in GD about Ath and Ag. DU rules. <groan> Such posts are allocated to the R&T forum - where much infighting begins. I never go the the R&T forum.

Please join us here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=263

Hugs and kisses,
Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

me?:headbang:

I thought I was being fairly pleasant

Listen to Synnical, come join us in A&A, it's where we plot the Evil Atheist Conspiracy overthrow of the U.S. And ignore the troglodytes giving you gruff. It's a little ironic in a thread about atheists being the most disrespected group in America that we have so many liberal and progressives who should know better proving the conclusions of the study by acting out.

and they don't run around blaming everything on an outside force beyond their control. ;-)

Why would people distrust atheists? I don't feel that way at all about them. I think an atheist can be just as good of a person as anyone else. Whether or not you believe in God has *nothing* to do with how good of a person you are.

I'm not atheist, btw. More of an agnostic.

Tammy

were really atheists, but just didn't know it. One guy even tried to say that the coiner of that word, Thomas Huxley, was really describing atheism instead of agnosticism. I've always admired agnostics, actually. Sometimes the big shrug seems like the most honest answer.

“That the atheist who believes in man and scorns God is closer to holiness than the religionist who believes in God and scorns man." Sidney J. Harris

i always thought it couldn't get much clearer than that.

ellen fl

I think I'll use it sometime

A malthesist here.

some would believe that only someone with religious or spiritual values can be trusted.
My mother became an atheist, and I certainly didn't trust her less. She was always trustworthy. She seemed to have become angry at religion, which may have led to her atheism (she didn't discuss the issue much with me)

She also didn't stop having fairly liberal views, and believing in the goodness of all peoples of the world.

Now back to the trust, I suppose that one might look at something as simple as taking an oath, "swearing on he bible", and think that if someone can't do that they can't be trusted.

I also think that it may be related to some people's anger towards religion for various reasons.

I've struggled with anger towards organized religion since childhood growing up non mormon in a mormon state, Utah.

I am a somewhat reluctant member of a Church, I believe in a Higher Power, and I call that power God, but I'm certainly not one to think that my way is the only way. It is a way that has helped me personally, and might not help anyone else. I get a little freaked sometimes at the whole going to Church thing. But we belong to a very liberal Church and no one is keeping score as to who is there and who is not there.

Peace

Just some thoughts

If god can torment and kill at will. Than if you believe there is a force greater than law to foirce the believer in line. A believer has an OUTSIDE locus of control that can be held to some standards that are written down and enforced supernaturally.Basically it's a defense mechanism. Nevermind those religious derived standards are changeable,contradictory and can be cherry picked by anyone clever enogh to do it to justify any immoral thing.It's the illusion of not having a PERSON a Sinful human being in charge of our lives that somehow comforts a theist,they'd rather have god a god that is accountable to everyonbe and no one at the same time.It lets people on or off the hook ethically at the whioms of leaders and congegants..

although I know what you are talking about, some people don't have the ego strength to not have an external locus of control and they are attracted to very fundamentalist religions.

As for the rest of your post, I don't know if I agree or not. I do believe that a Higher Power underlies all things in the universe, but I also believe that we have free will. So I as a "sinful human being" have choices in my life as to how I act, etc.

I assure you, there is quite a bit more anger flowing in the other direction, at least based on my personal experience.

anger, including with my mother.

Sometimes it is smoldering, intellectualized anger, that looks down on those who "have to believe" in some "fairy tale" etc.

Sometimes it is a more militant belief.

I do agree that there is anger among the fundies towards everyone not like them, including me I'm sure.

I belong to a liberal Christian sect, and am a non-traditional member at that (I don't have dogma in my belief system) and conservative Christian sects may hate the "liberal theologians" as much or more than the "atheistic hedonists", as they accuse the "liberal theologians" of being "wolves in sheep's clothing" while the "atheistic hedonist" is up front about their philosophy. (In other words, I'm a tricky Christian, that is probably working for the devil in the fundie's mind)

So I can't say there is more, or less anger in either case, there is plenty of anger to go around.

Personally, I hold no animosity to atheists in general. I won't respect those that tear down religious beliefs just to prop themselves up, just as I won't and don't respect those who tear down atheists' beliefs just to prop up their religion, or themselves.

Although outside of Utah. I did live there for a few months, though, & was shocked at how horribly non-Mormons were treated. My aunt had Catholic neighbors & wouldn't talk to them. Seeing my aunt's religious fanaticism up close (which included throwing out the medication she needed because God "told" her to), is what finally made me give up on religion. If people find comfort in religion that's great for them, but I'm perfectly fine without it.

Tammy

My beliefs came out of a necessity in my life, one that has worked out for me for the most part. I wouldn't say I'm really religious, but I do have spiritual beliefs, and I do attend a Church, but I don't buy the dogmatic parts (although where I attend I don't think many do) it has been helpful to some extent to have other human beings who believe similarly to me around.

Yes, I am sure the Utah Mormon is probably different than one raised outside of Utah. (I think they often even send the non-Utah Mormon young adults on missions to Utah, where they can keep their eyes on them)

It wasn't an issue when I was really young, but later it became an issue and it was hard. I was really glad when we moved to of all places Oklahoma (which seemed like the end of the world) where my parents were from originally.

I am an atheist, but I have had many profoundly spiritual experiences. However, I know that these are not induced or guided by any supernatural phenomenon or being.

Hell, I'm an atheist that will admit that I believe in god if defined broadly enough. "Physics" is something I believe in that is responsible for us being here.

I told a date that once - she was desperate NOT to date an atheist -- her reply "whew - at least you're not an atheist!"

Fundies are, in some circles - because they try to "push" their beliefs or lack thereof on others, or tear down people who won't agree with them.

I personally don't have a problem with athiests, it's the anti-science American Taliban that I distrust.

I've never seen an atheist push his or her beliefs on anyone. By the way, the word is broken down thusly:

a (meaning "lack of")
theist (meaning "belief in god or gods")

When I see it spelled incorrectly it just underlines the original poster's point: We aren't trusted and we are relegated to the periphery so often that people can't even spell the word "atheist" correctly because atheism is taboo.

Have you ever seen this: "Christain"?

Edited for typos...ironically...hehe ;)

all my life, when I was a "true believer" christian type, when I was an agnostic. Atheists do have a belief system and some of them can be pushy about it.

Some atheists are as angry and pushy about their beliefs or lack thereof as some Christians. I'm not particularly happy with either. But neither do SOME atheists and Christians represent ALL atheists and Christians.

sorry

Seriously, atheists try to push their (lack of) beliefs on people? You have a lot of atheists knocking on your door? Was the original poster trying to push his or her (lack of) beliefs on you?

Personally, I never bring it up. I'll comment on a thread here if it's relevant. Some Christian (and it's always the Christians) starts preaching to me, I won't back down, but I never bring it up. Atheists never bring it up, at least not in public. It's a can of worms we don't want to open. People can lose their jobs over atheism. People can have neighbors turn against them if they admit they're atheists.

You don't have to like us, but please don't accuse us of pushing our lack of faith on people when nothing could be further from the truth.

Check out the religion forum- it's more like the 'make fun of religion' forum.

Atheists seem to like to 'educate' others about how misled they are (not all atheists of course, but then some use the term christian without qualifiers...) - but then really, don't we all try to educate others and push our beliefs? We are doing so here in this thread and on DU in general.

No offense, but are you nuts?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Why, just the other day a pair of atheists showed up at my door clutching the Humanist Manifesto. :eyes: Actually it was a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses with their Bibles and Watch Tower rags...imagine that! I told them (proudly and with a smile) that I was an atheist and they left. :)

Late last night
And the night before
Crazy theists, crazy theists
Knockin' at my door

Wanna go out
Dunno if I can
'Cause I'm so afraid
Of the Jesus-fan clan!

(Edited for clarity)

eh.

I mean, if a thread is labelled a prayer thread, and you're an atheist, I would expect you to shrug and figure that thread wasn't for you, instead of marching into it and pointing out that all those within are fools for worshiping some bronze age sky pixie.

But for the most part, when I was a member of alt.atheism, the weirder folks were somewhat imbalanced Christians who showed up to heckle. Oh, a few were there to debate, which was fine. But there sure were a decent number of wackos. Goes without saying, I suppose, being Usenet and all.

Surfing the Christian newsgroups, I didn't find any atheists pushing themselves. Just the Hannity Christians lording it over the Colmes Christians, who always seemed to be outnumbered, and too meek for their own good.

Erica (who is proud to have been a token theist of alt.atheism, one of only two they tolerated as a regular)

as I think you pointed out.

What happens on DU or other forums is not what happens in the real world. I'm not into bashing prayer threads or baseball threads or other threads that don't suit me, but I will share my views on topics of debate and discourse. I don't expect Christian DUers to agree with me any more than I agree with them on the topic of religion, but I'll also say what I think, as I expect theists to say what they think. :shrug:

It's a hot-button issue for me, so I really have to be careful to put my snark on a leash. Sometimes he gets free and bites someone on the ass.

Christian bashing. Keep it civil, and we're cool, on either side.

…and tried to deconvert you right on your doorstep? How many streetcorner atheist philosophers have you seen shouting angrily at strangers and trying to convert anyone who crosses his path? How many atheist "charities" exist where they give food to the homeless, but the needy are not allowed to eat until they declare "There is no God!"? How many atheist missionary organizations exist, roaming the most desperately poor parts of the world, and offering relief only if the suffering agrees to adopt an atheist worldview? How many wars have been fought in an effort to deconvert entire nations or even entire continents? How many indigenous peoples were forced to stop speaking their own languages in an effort to get them to abandon their existing religious views in favor of atheism?

This is quite possibly the most profound case of pot-and-kettle I've ever witnessed, and I've been in lots of arguments with conservatives!

it is not possible to have a thoughtful discussion about either atheism or Christianity.

And if a group of people want to say that they are praying for John Kerry just before one of the debates, to me that is not the time to come marching in and declare that one things that those in attendance in that thread are foolish for worshiping some sky pixie.

And I've been accosted by street preachers too. Telling them I'm a Christian does no good, as they just try to give me a quick quiz to see if I really am by their standards. It's really hard to express one's beliefs in the time it takes for a light to turn from red to green. I don't like being given tracts. I don't like seeing little fishes on cars, or pro-life stickers, or much else that expresses the religiousness of the person inside. Seeing such things make me wonder what kind of Christian is in that car, how that person would make me feel if we had a debate.

The kind of Christian I am is not the kind of Christian you're describing. In fact, such Christians make my teeth itch. I've often felt like a second hand Christian growing up because I didn't measure up to the likes of Pat Robertson. YOU try growing seeing that demented leprechan on the television each day and see how you turn out. Or how about the Jim and Tammy Show, for that matter. I actually tried to get on that show once as a little kid. Pretty sad to think of it now. I guess I didn't notice all the eye makeup back then.

I get very depressed out of high school faced with trying to figure out what I beieved. Fundamentalism fucked with my head for awhile there. I'm better now. But I will NOT be lumped in with the likes of them.

Edited to remove the bit that would get me deleted. I got carried away, sorry. But I was also so angry at that moment, I was crying. So whatchagonna do.

I'll let it slide. If I get into it, my post will probably be deleted. Therefore, I will cede the point. Atheists as a group are exaclty as bad as Christians on matters of proselytizing. You win.

Atheists as a group are nothing. Christians as a group are nothing. You're broadbrushing. There are assholes on both sides. Get it?

SOME of the "recovering fundamentalist" brand of atheist that I have encountered is just about as unmoving in their beliefs and angry to boot as SOME Christians are. I'm just talking about encounters I've had. What's the deal with bringing up world history. Where the hell did that come from?

Or did you think that all atheists were just spiffy, and all Christians were opinionated assholes. Sorry, there are opinionated assholes on both sides. Live with it.

people that are broad minded enough to be open and accepting to all.

I would like to think I'm that person, although, sometimes my personality gets the better of me and I lose my openmindedness. As a Christian, who is not a fundie by any stretch of the imagination, I am offended by fundies. I am offended by some atheists who come on like they are "oh so much "smarter" than a believing person, saying things like comparing believing in God to belief in "Santa Claus".

I've wanted to slam the door in door knocker Christian's faces, but my wife, who is much nicer than me, wouldn't allow it. (Don't ask me how she doesn't allow it other than I respect her and don't want to act like the ass I would be if I slammed the door, despite that is what I want to do)

Anyway, I understand your sentiments very well. And I hope that we can all realize that if we are liberal, we are on the same team, whether we are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans, etc. We all stand together, or we stand alone.

Rove wants us to stand alone.

Maybe those who post antagonistic threads about religion or atheism are Rovian plants?:tinfoilhat:

I was starting to think I was writing in another language or something.

--you still benefit from institutionalized racism even if you don't like getting the bennies. If you are Christian in this country, you have privileges like openly running for office (with a chance of being elected) that are denied to atheists, even though you personally disapprove of that. I think that's what the OP was getting at.

Personally, I am getting damned sick and tired of inciteful threads. I don't give a rat's ass whether you are baptist, muslim, white, female, jew, agnostic, yellow, male, artistic, political, young, wasp, arab, christian, hindu, stupid, one-eyed, five-toed, heinz-57 or otherwise. YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING TO ME.

Maybe, I should rant about being a member of some very small percentage of the population who doesn't give a shit about color, creed, religious or political affiliation and DEMAND I GET MY DUE ATTENTION, TOO!!!!

sheez

The number of people who have died fighting over who's fairy tale is true. I'm not trying to be inflamatory, but that's what it boils down to to me.

Years and years ago I was guilty myself (though only for a moment). When I saw a bumper sticker proudly proclaiming atheism, my brain defaulted to thinking something was wrong with them and that it was inappropriate. That was just impulse reaction though, and upon actually letting my brain use reasoning came to the conclusion my impulse thought had been unfair and wrong.

It was a brief moment in time and haven't thought about that quick moment since until now, when this thread just reminded me of it.

So it got me thinking "well why did I react that way impulsively then, even though I was able to realize the error quickly. What caused me to just default to that?"

I think I have the answer, though it doesn't make the situation any better. I think the reason why some on impulse would choose atheists as more untrustworthy or immoral is simply due to flawed subconscious association. The majority of people are raised with some degree of belief in a higher being, regardless of what religion they are. Most people are conditioned to think there is good and evil and that there is a higher power that is inherently good, even though some might question the degree of their religion they choose to believe. Even those that aren't that religious still were brought up conditioned to the ideal that god equates with good. Again, doesn't matter what religion they are. So what I'm getting at is that when people hear atheist, subconsciously they impulsively associate that with being 'against god' so to speak. Just because of that subconscious association of atheists not supporting god, they then wrongly associate that with being evil, unholy or immoral, since even those not overly religious default to associating the thought of god as being good and moral. I don't think it is fair that you have to deal with misguided notion, but I hope you understand the logic behind my theory. To most, their subconscious automatically goes through the following associations when hearing the word atheist: atheist -> doesn't believe in god -> god is good and moral -> Not being pro god means anti-god -> anti god is evil and immoral.

As I said, it is a completely unfair and inaccurate association, but I don't think the person thinking it even realizes it. I think in that study in your link, the answers were mainly off the tops of people's heads, and I'm confident the subconscious impulse association I mentioned above was the culprit. Problem is, I don't know what would be done to break that default mentality. I think it would take some time and atheists would need to make themselves more public and not feel it is something that is taboo from talking freely about (not you, but I know many atheists still keep it quite hidden).

I dunno. Enough babble from me. :)

kinda sad. I don't like seeing fishs on the backs of cars, with or without feet. The Calvin sticker that has him and a girl praying by a cross just seems weird to me. I've had to many people come at me with their beliefs I suppose. I'm looking for thoughtful dialogue, and you're not going to get that from some people on both sides of the issue.

I understand your personal view, but I didn't see how you were tying that to the context of my post you replied to. And I thought my post was extremely inspired from thoughtful dialogue, do you agree?

I'm quite exhausted right now, and just wasn't quite sure what to make of your context above in relation to mine. :)

I'm tired too. I was just responding to your first sentence or two, about reacting to bumperstickers with stuff on them. About the only religious bumpersticker that doesn't bother me is the "My boss is a Jewish Carpenter" which I found mildly witty.

That's all. Not relating my reaction to bumperstickers to a reaction to you or anything. Just sorta reacted to something that reminded me of my own experience.

That's too funny! You are completely in the right with that. Because of the mental length of my original post above I had COMPLETELY forgotten I started it by reminiscing about the bumper sticker I had seen. Didn't occur to me at all when I read your reply that was what you were referencing LOL. My bad, I see totally what you meant now. I just forgot I had even talked about a bumpersticker and got a good laugh at myself this morning when I just read your reply and realized it was me that forgot the context hehe. :)

extremes in either direction are disturbing

fundies who try to shove it all down on top of you about how it is

some atheists (fundies?) who try to shove it all down on top of you about how it is, how much smarter they are because they don't believe in "something they can't see", etc.

(how many have ever seen an electron? Yet they believe in electricity)

but I was never too fond of having someone "come at" me on the atheist newsgroup I frequented. I learned about logical fallacies through them, as they seemed to worship formal debate as much as anything. But I'm not much on conflict, so I'd often wish some of them weren't quite so danged angry.

But then, I couldn't hang on the Lutheran newsgroup either, because I was ELCA and most of them thought I was hellspawn, being the much more superior WELS, doncha know.

and I'd alert on them just as fast as I alert on threads that are not sensitive to our religious DUers. But then, it would be kind of ludicrous to try to blame the ills of the day on your average atheist the way some will broadbrush and blame the ills of the day on your average religious person.

I mostly object when folks buy the Republican line that they are the only real Christians, and so make criticizing Christians synonymous with criticizing Republicans. I've had too many fundies make me feel like a second-hand Christian for being liberal and not believing as they do. I'm not fond of being overlooked by my fellow liberals either.

But as I say, I doubt you've seen posts bashing atheists last very long around here either. What happens in the world at large is a different matter. But then, bringing up what happens out there in here doesn't make much sense either.

That's not to say there haven't ever been them, but I've never noticed one, and I've been lurking here since early 2003.

I have seen threads that seemed to attack those who believe, and there is always the cry of "atheists are the persecuted ones"

While I don't think that Christians are persecuted in this country by any stretch of the imagination, I also don't see atheists as being persecuted on DU.

If I'm wrong, then it shouldn't be that way and they should be alerted on as well.

:shrug:

I'm starting to get used to being a minority, but you know what? I am really, really proud of my atheism. Really. Whenever I think of my lack of belief, I feel a great sense of accomplishment and pride. It isn't something I came to overnight and it isn't a belief that I derived from those around me. I spent many years thinking and researching. Finally I just decided (with Thomas Edison) that religion is bunk. I took a stand that was well-thought-out, intellectually honest, moral and totally not okay with the folks around me. I take great pride in my courage.

Pride goeth, so the Christians say
Before a mighty fall
But me, I've never felt that way
I never stand so tall
As when I say
I'm proud to be
An atheist, oh yes!
It helps me stand
For so much more
And fall for so much less

-Dan Barker, "Benediction" from Friendly Neighborhood Atheist

I started out agnostic and the more I learned of religion, the sillier it seemed to me. I came to the conclusion that religion was categorically impossible/implausible at a very young age, so I can't possibly understand nor properly appreciate what is involved in deconversion. In adulthood, I've had a chance to participate in a number of online atheist communities and from what I've heard, deconversion sounds like a profound, life-changing event.

I'm glad I didn't have to go through the experience, but I do admire your honesty, reason and courage.

You know what else is nice? I can give myself credit for my own accomplishments. It always irks me when I hear some talented person saying, "well, all my gifts come straight from God". Baloney! You do that stuff all by yourself with hard work, practice and perserverence. You deserve the credit.

If someone believes firmly that their gifts are from god they have every right to do so without having to get a preaching from you don't they? I mean, didn't you in this very thread claim you don't push your beliefs on others? Didn't you do just that, above? I don't think you have any right to tell others that it is baloney that god gave them their gifts if that is what they truly believe, any more than I think I have the right to tell you that you're full of baloney for saying otherwise. To each their own, but I kinda got a kick out of your contradiction above to your earlier statements.

At least as far as unsolicited commentary is concerned, anyway. Keep it civil, that's all I'm looking for.

:)

What you want to believe is your business.

But thanks for repeating my sentiment. :hi:

:hi:

Why be hostile about it?

Why can't we all just get along?

I mean we should be able to form an unmovable force if we focus on what makes us alike and not on what makes us different.

But when someone says my beliefs are "baloney" or "foolish" or "I quit believing in Santa Claus a long time ago", it turns me off to wanting to work with them towards anything. It's a personal attack.

I don't go around saying "Oh atheists, they just can't believe, or whatever" I really don't give the idea much thought until I see a thread putting down those of us who believe.

This thread didn't start that way, but you see how the emotions get hold of us.

I didn't mean to imply that I actually say that to people who say their talent comes from God. It's more my internal dialogue. I said it irks me, which it does. I just think they sell themselves short when doing that.

I also didn't name any specific person doing that, though I could have. So given that I don't actually speak that opinion directly to the people who say it (I brought it up here because we're having a discussion of atheism, and atheism as it relates to pride came up) I don't see how I'm pushing my (lack of) beliefs on anyone.

I'm sorry if I offended you, it wasn't my intent, and perhaps I was unclear in that I don't actually say those things to people in response to specific statements. Perhaps "baloney" was too strong a word. Good thing I didn't go with "bullshit".

I know EXACTLY how you feel, being here among supposedly accepting, progressive and tolerant people I never expected my values to be met with contempt, hostility and ridicule the way they have. I have ALWAYS spoken out for increasing awareness, acceptance and most of all RESPECT for atheist and agnostic views. I will ALWAYS continue to do so. Religion should stay the * out of the state and the state should stay the * out of religion.

That being said, it's time for you atheists to think "outside the box". I've seen this complaint over and over again that there has been only one open atheist in the history of congress. FINE. To my mind this demonstrates a lack of courage upon about 10% of modern senate and congress. I shouldn't have to tell you how obvious it is that the majority of our WHITE "founding fathers" were Agnostics, Deists and reluctant Atheists. Do their modern alumni have no courage? Who should you blame? If they do not meet your expectations...... RUN.

I certainly know what you are talking about.

I find it astonishing that a person will abstain from any number of practices (alcohol, smoking, various foods, drugs, medical care, etc.) because of the dictates of their religion, and expect others to at least respect their decision or even consider them noble for it.

But if a person abstains from animal products because they believe that harming animals is wrong they are called extremist, radical, loony, even "batsh*t crazy".

:wtf:

being prompted to do so by fear of being punished by the angry skygod dreamed up by a ragtag group of herdsmen.

nt

I am positive that I have no idea what the answer is. And that's fine.

It helps me stay humble, even as I privately grumble about religion in terms that would be quickly deleted if posted, to remember that:

- I was not raised as an atheist;
- my religious education was the very thing that made me question the existence of God;
- leaving my faith was a difficult decision requiring a conscious effort that taught me about the nature of faith and the limits of human knowledge;
- what I don't believe has evolved in the 30-plus years I have not believed;
- and that nobody, atheists and agnostics included, can say for sure what existence is, and why we are here, and what difference it makes to anyone or anything beyond our own wants and needs.

My mother was very religious but fell away in her 40s. She never again attended church except for weddings, baptisms and funerals. So I was surprised that she wanted a priest to visit her during her final hospital stay. Some would write off her return to faith to a desire for childlike security, seeking comfort in the face of the unknown. Well, why the fuck not. What is wrong with that, and who am I to judge someone ill and weak, in unbearable pain, who needs comfort beyond human ability to provide. Likewise I cannot begrudge that comfort to anyone who it helps withstand the cruelty of life and the terror of death.

Are they simple-minded to believe, or do they hold the key to everlasting life? Will I be sorry someday that I don't believe, or am I superior to them? I can't possibly know, so why should I care so long as we don't tread on each others' toes.

I'm glad I was raised with religious beliefs, and glad I don't hold those beliefs now. So when I rail against delusional fundies who want to twist my life to please their invisible sand gods, I try not to piss all over the great number of religious people who have no such goals, who are kind and generous and tolerant to the extent that humans are capable, and who are as flawed and imperfect as me - who does not, at this point in time, believe. :)

That's all I'm saying really.

"Both sides should just leave each other the fuck alone sometimes" - that sums it up for me. :hi:

k & r

I am not an atheist nor an agnostic, near as I can tell. The one thing I believe about "God" is that no human has the actual capability of comprehending it, and anyone who says they do is either deluded or selling something. If any such being exists, trying to truly grok it would be like a gerbil trying to understand its human keeper, but magnified many, many times.

My philosophy has been influenced by philosophical Taoism, Scientific Pantheism, a vague personal sense of animism, and Humanism. No great sky spirit has come down to speak with me directly, and until such happens, I'm going to continue believing that revealed religion is the province of hucksters and their victims. The bible, as such, is no more accurate or revealing than any other book, despite its alleged age, and I'll tell a pushy self-professed atheist the same thing I'll tell a pushy Christian...

"I don't know and neither do you."

There's no evidence either way and I personally don't care if a person believes in one God or many Gods... Be they Christian, Pagan, or any other stripe of theist, their belief system has little or nothing to do with me. Even my wife's has very little effect on the way I approach the world. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt--her Gods and Goddesses may exist as some thought form or energy somewhere, but do I believe they're in any way "real?"

Nope.

whether they would have an openly religous yet incompetent, malevolent president, or a competent, benificient atheist president. The Christian president won because he/she "shared their values." Yikes.

They demonstrate that people can live ethical lives without the fear of punishment for transgression. I do not believe in Hell, I do not recognise the concept of sin, but I don't have a stack of skulls in my living room and I give up my seat for elderly people on the Tube. That is terrifying to some theists. It kicks away the whole basis of their imagined "morality", because the notion that some people can be good without believing in Hell suggests, on a subliminal level, that the efforts that they make to be "good" according to the doctrine of their church will not result in Heaven. They know, deep down, that if it wasn't for their God watching them they'd feel lost, or they'd kill their ex-wife, or they would happily bend over for the guy who changes the water cooler at their office, and the fact that people live their lives without that sanction is a direct affront. It is, frankly, an inferiority complex.

Religion is the biggest racket on the planet.

... and having no great father figure to tell them what to do, do what is right because it is right. All the die-hard atheists I know are deeply ethical.

Yes, athesists are under-represented, but it's difficult to say a way round that. Religious people have a deep-seated fear of atheism, they feel like the sky's been ripped off the world without the image of the Great Father. That the world may have its own value, possibly more real, deeper and and more meaningful than one tacked on through religion, is an idea which often escapes them.

call you immoral (I don't really think you are, so let me explain this quip):

The problem - and I'm not slamming you because your OP doesn't do this - is that many atheists, particularly on this board, look down on people who have a Godly belief. They tell us we believe in "fairy tales." You may believe that - many atheists may believe that - but progressives surely should embrace religious freedom and plurality by accepting that I have a different belief than you. If this attitude is indicative of the real world, then maybe that's the problem - why people with a Godly belief don't trust atheists in the general population. I'm not sure.

For the record, I don't feel persecuted, but I don't like the, excuse the pun, holier-than-thou attitude that some atheists on this board exhibit. YOU may not believe in God and I'm fine with that. It's your belief system - or lack thereof - and you're entitled to it. Just as I am to mine. I don't go around calling you immoral, so don't tell me I believe in fairy tales.

Also of note: my husband is agnostic - he believes in faith, but not organized religion - but he doesn't tell me I believe in "fairy tales." He's respectful of my faith, even if he doesn't completely agree.

doing in GD?!?!?!?:yourock:

Belief has little or nothing to do with whether one is a "Christian", despite that "John 3:16" sign they always wave in the end-zone at football games.

Most, if not all of the athiests and agnostics here at DU are much better Christians than any of the bible-thumping, hate-spewing war mongers at FR or LGF or wherever.

Seriously. Christ was a liberal, ergo, liberals are Christ-like. Whether Christian, Buddhist, Pagan, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, or atheist, if you are liberal, then you are in line with the actual TEACHINGS of Christ. Not necessarily FOLLOWING them, as you may have arrived at your particular political philosophy independently of an actual "Christian" upbringing (or, more likely, in SPITE of said upbringing).

There's our common ground.

Are atheists perfect? No more so than theists.
Can atheists be obnoxious? You betcha. I can be an utter bastard.

But if you're looking for a way we can "all just get along" try that.

And fellow atheists? Google the Jefferson Bible. Jesus was a cool dude, even if he didn't exist. It's Paul who was the asshole. And Peter. And batsh*t-crazy John. Hmm. Come to think of it, NONE of them "got" Jesus. Go figure.

But, of course, as atheists, y'all already knew that, didn'tcha? Cause most of us "get" Jesus, even if we don't believe he was the son of god, or the son of man, or whatever he was supposed to be. We "get" him. As do most of the Christians here at DU. If we didn't, we would be at Free Republic.

I think its true that when people play up being religious as a good thing they are implying that not being religious is a bad thing. I recently heard someone make the argument not to discriminate against illegal immigrants because most of them are "religious" and "family people". A double slap against atheists who are single. Its not fair.

On Air America I routinely hear all of the hosts except springer and Franken slap at christians. If you listen to them all the time you know that they eventually add a few words to say that they only mean fundamentalists. But sometimes the broad brush used against all Christians makes me angry because it shows that these people I think so highly of can't be bothered to figure out that the christian peacemaker team is as far away as you can get from focus on the family. They don't do their research on this so how do I know they are doing it on everything else?

DU has a long history of battles on this subject. Sometimes the broad brush religion bashing posts are allowed to go on and on and its really offensive to those of us who are Christians.

But I really hear what you are saying. My father was an atheist and I have long been aware that for him, letting people know that made them think less of him. None of us likes to be painted with the negative broad brush I guess, and in the case of atheists there's really no truth to it so its even worse.

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