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Should we now form an underground railroad to help soldiers desert?

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007)

benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:01 AM
Original message

Should we now form an underground railroad to help soldiers desert?

I think the time has come that many soldiers in Iraq, or threatened with being deployed to Iraq, would desert if given the chance.

Since I do not think this whole disgusting affair was worth the life of even ONE American (or any of the Iraqis we have killed) I am wondering what might be done to hide soldiers scheduled for deployment, get them to neutral countries, or assist them in forming false IDs to live under until the eventual and inevitable amnesty is declared?

Would this be a good idea now?

Would this be ethical now?

Would the "Peace Churches" (Brethren, Mennonites, Quakers) assist in this effort as a part of their historical legacy of asylum?

I invite discussion of this matter.

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Sammy Pepys

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:02 AM
Response to Original message

1. Isn't this a bit...ummm..contradictory?

Legal questions aside, this is really going to make the chickenhawk argument look more ridiculous than it already is.

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jamesinca

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #1

7. How does it do that?

Chickenhawks don't serve, but are very eager to send everybody else off to war. Dick Chenney is an example of this, 5 deferments in Vietnam but he has been very eager to start up with the Middle East.

These guys were most likely in the military before the "war on terror" broke out, and don't agree with its premise or the "stop loss" programs. The difference is, they are serving, not refusing to go and suggesting that everybody else sign up. In this day and age of a volunteer military, they are not staying at home and questioning everybody elses patriotism.

The view that the war is wrong and refusing to participate in it is not a chickenhawk stance, regardless of ones enlistment status. Refusing to participate in it and insisting that everybody else does is a chickenhawk stance.

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Sammy Pepys

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Wed Mar-29-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #7

13. Well, how exactly is...

Edited on Wed Mar-29-06 11:09 AM by Sammy Pepys

..lambasting people who didn't serve, yet aiding and abetting others in illegally avoiding service going to help things?

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #13

17. By keeping people from dying.

When I have the choice between appearing to be politically correct and saving somebody's life, then I have no choice at all.

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mike_c

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:03 AM
Response to Original message

2. providing asylum to soldiers who decline to participate in a war crime...

...is always ethical,IMO.

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northzax

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:03 AM
Response to Original message

3. what are you going to do with them?

Canada doesn't want them. Maybe a little reverse illegal immigration to Mexico?

you cannot encourage someone to break a law (especially one without a statute of limitations, like desertion) I don't think that's ethical.

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #3

4. Hide them in our homes, if need be. nt

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TechBear_Seattle

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:07 AM
Response to Original message

5. You realize you are advocating a felony, if not treason, right?

Edited on Wed Mar-29-06 10:10 AM by TechBear_Seattle

Under a law passed as part of the Sedition Act of 1919, a law which is still in effect as 18 USC Sec 2388:

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+1074+2++%28%29%20%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%282388%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20

-CITE-
18 USC Sec. 2388 01/19/04

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 115 - TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

-HEAD-
Sec. 2388. Activities affecting armed forces during war

-STATUTE-
(a) Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully causes or
attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal
of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or
willfully obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the
United States, to the injury of the service or the United States,
or attempts to do so -

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
twenty years, or both.

(b) If two or more persons conspire to violate subsection (a) of
this section and one or more such persons do any act to effect the
object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy
shall be punished as provided in said subsection (a).

(c) Whoever harbors or conceals any person who he knows, or has
reasonable grounds to believe or suspect, has committed, or is
about to commit, an offense under this section, shall be fined
under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #5

6. Not advocating... Discussing.

I'll let you know when I am advocating it, OK?

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TechBear_Seattle

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #6

11. I understand the distinction, but will Agent Mike?

:hi: Hi, Agent Mike!

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #11

15. Let them jail me then.

They will eventually, anyway.

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #5

10. I will also remind you that helping a slave escape was a crime, too.

In retrospect, was it the right thing to do?

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TechBear_Seattle

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #10

12. The right thing to do is too often not the legal thing to do

I'm not saying the law is right (believe me, I'm not); I'm just letting you know that it's there. The rest is up to you :dilemma:

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onenote

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Wed Mar-29-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #10

24. it was the right thing to do

Of course, once a slave got a free state, then there was little risk. But where are these soldiers going to go, as a practical matter. Chances are they'll end up in jail. Which is better than dead, of course.

onenote

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #24

28. Even in the "free States" there were bounty hunters.

Escaped slaves were taken back with distressing regularity.

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im10ashus

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Wed Mar-29-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #5

16. It's a discussion. Not advocating anything.

I would take the chance of being convicted of a felony if they tried to take someone I loved and cared for without their wanting to go in the first place. If they started the draft, which may not be too far off, we may HAVE to face these decisions. Just saying. :shrug:

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TechBear_Seattle

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Wed Mar-29-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #16

19. Think about how the Regime is twisting the laws and Constitution

Edited on Wed Mar-29-06 11:59 AM by TechBear_Seattle

And ask yourself, "Would Attorney General Gonzo make a distinction between discussing a crime -- especially when the crime is a denouncement of the Regime's policies -- and advocating it"? It is a very sorry state that the question must be asked, but sadly....

Like I said, I'm only pointing out what is the current law. I am by no means saying that the law is correct or that the subject under discussion should not be discussed.

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Dhalgren

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:22 AM
Response to Original message

8. Yes. The time has come.

With so much of the public finally turning against this murderous war, as more and more soldiers are going to want and need an alternative to the unending re-deployment that the next five years will bring. If the US is still in Iraq by 2009 (as Bush has stated we would be), it will take a braver president than any candidate on the horizon to simply pull them out as the first Presidential action, so we need to thing in terms of at least five years. These soldiers need a safe haven so that they are not forced to either murder or be murdered in the imperialists war. I'm in....How do we do this? And, of course, maintain secrecy? (Well, not talk about it online might be a first step, lol).

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #8

9. Indeed it might be the first step.

Which is why I mention churches. Churches are a good venue for organizing something like this.

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Neil Lisst

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Wed Mar-29-06 11:17 AM
Response to Original message

14. I appreciate what you're saying, but you are taking a risk

Every day this board is reviewed by people looking for illegality, and they don't have the same paradigm of intelligent discourse you do. They see sedition, and they see you doing it.

If you had asked "is there an underground railroad?"

Or "will there be an underground railroad?" you'd probably be ok.

This is a public place, very public, and every word you say that can be constued as violating the law will be so construed if it serves the needs of this administration.

It's a shame it's come to this, but that is where we are.

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #14

18. I take a risk each and every day with White Rose.

I expect to be killed for it eventually if we fail to destroy the GOP.

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sweetheart

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Wed Mar-29-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #18

21. they fight economically

They'll just seek to deny you all sources of funds by leaning on
all agents who you might get funds from... because they view it as
terrorist funding, you terrorist you.

I think a soldier is trained how to get from point A to point B. I'd
wager a soldier could get across the canadan border and find connections
once up north, to shift on to secure, safe and civil societies that
will protect them from the war criminals.

They want to lock down all identity paper checkpoints and really imprison
everyone, so that they can catch any one of us at impunity like rats in
a cage. The military person would probably just take cash and a survival
pack, to get across a huge wilderspace border. Depending on the race of
the person escaping from the prison states of america, north or south,
and the ultimate destination to blend, are simply not predictable.

THe one fact of all persons seeking such refuge, is deed of economic support
in their deed. If that be underground railroad, then i agree, i wonder if
bill gates does.

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Neil Lisst

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Wed Mar-29-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #18

26. I see. Well, good luck on that.

I'm not sure why you expect to get killed if you don't destroy the GOP, and I'm not sure how White Rose expects to destroy the GOP.

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #26

27. White Rose exists to spread truth.

And truth will destroy them. Not by myself, of course. If I am alone in this not much will happen.

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Generic Other

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Wed Mar-29-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message

20. There was an underground railroad in my hometown during the Vietnam war

I remember meeting a number of guys on their way to Canada. People helped them find places to stay, gave them rides to the border, money. I met some interesting high profile war resistors such as Joan Baez's ex-husband at the time.

So yes, I think those along the border between Canada and the US should help GIs on the run.

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GrpCaptMandrake

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Wed Mar-29-06 12:32 PM
Response to Original message

22. Agnes of Bob, to Ben, You have a wonderful concept!

When those who haven't any answers and froth at the mouth call another a tratior then maybe they would be willing to sacrifice their own for whatever their current agenda is....or maybe they are just too much of a coward to come out and say you are right in this regard. Just my opinion.

But before you attack an idea you may want to think of a viable solution. Just a suggestion folks.

Have a great day.

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #22

23. Thanks, Agnes!

:)

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AnnInLa

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Wed Mar-29-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message

25. Each person should follow his/her own conscience

and act in concert with his/her local organizations...but, broadcasting intentions on a public message board that is regularly scanned, kinda negates the words "underground," doesn't it?

I think it's obviously something we have all thought about, and am sure that everyone will do his/her best....but, if I participate, I'll not broadcast it. It is not that I am afraid of the gummit, but what good would I do if I was NOT underground....how could I help anyone then?

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benburch

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Wed Mar-29-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #25

29. Well, a public discussion *is* called for.

Like the Abolitionists had public discussions of the need for helping slaves escape.

I wouldn't suggest that anybody publish that they were actually doing this, though!

Maybe a more practical approach would be to get the Peace Churches to offer membership to those who might be drafted so that they can get Conscientious Objector status before the draft begins? Seems to me also that a serving soldier could claim CO status after a religious conversion?

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