Immigrants do jobs Americans won't do.

Regardless of your view of the immigration issue, this feels like a slap in the face every time I hear it.

I am an American and I grew up poor and I did every stinking job in the world. As a kid growing up in Chicago, I carried groceries, delivered news papers, collected pop bottles and news papers to get money. Why? My family desperately needed it.

Later on I lived in a Rural area. There I picked apples, peaches, strawberries and hauled hay. Why? My family desperately needed the money.

And if I need the money now, I'll do it again.

This jingo is insulting and I am sick and tired of hearing it from many a politicians that don't have a clue of what it means to be without, I have been there and done that. This is the worst type of patronizing.

A list of other undesirable jobs I have done:

Cleaned barns out, two feet of cow shit
Roofing when it was 105 degrees out
Cleaning grain silos, 105 degrees and gasping fumes
Cleaning out drainage ditches
fixing septic systems
I have worked for manpower (That says it all right there)
On and on and on. You name it.

I've been poor, but don't try to take my pride away from me. Don't tell me I am afraid of hard day's work and don't insult my work ethic.

The "guest worker" thing is a bad idea because it exerts downward pressure on wages and further leads us towards a caste society with a whole class of workers who will be invisible, non-unionized and very poor.

A generation ago, jobs like meat packing & chicken processing paid a living wage & had benefits. Now they're minimum wage, no bennies, & illegals do them.

In Georgia, the local economy is built on their backs. It's SO WRONG!

Skilled labor jobs that used to command a living wage are now being done by illegals: framing, insulation, drywall, you name it. All an employer has to do to get a "guest worker" is offer shit wages and whine that Americans don't want to work.

Get a clue, people. CHEAP ASS EMPLOYERS are the enemies of all of us.

I'm sick of allowing them to get a free ride on the backs of exploited labor.

labor market and the ability of a LEGAL and trusted worker to be paid a fair wage, or not.

Inside, but at one none thie less. You can make a living by working there. The guys that worked where I did all made as much as I did and I was an an asst. events director

than grape farms. There's a bit more specialization in the winery business, but for the three weeks of harvest, it's still crappy, crappy, work. But they can get people to participate from the supposed romance of working in the wine business.


And there's no romance, it's a brutal way to make a living.

Moved to TX and hoed cotton. My last job before going in the Army was driving a Cushman scooter, selling ice cream. The last one wasn't to bad.

area for picking grapes. Would you do it year round for ten years? My local news interviewed a couple of undocumented workers, who have been here for ten years, a husband and wife, working in the vineyards and the fields year. The crop changes with the seasons. They pay taxes and spend their money locally.

I picked berries in the summer when I was a teenager and many others did too. I'm sure some Americans would do it as an in between job, but the fact is, it isn't a job people will do for long or for a career when they can move upscale. Because of this often there aren't enough Americans willing to do the job when the crop needs picking.

Since when is $10 an hour poor wages? Minimum wage is $5.15! (And we have to raise the minimum wage!) But many Americans are working all kinds of jobs for much less than $10 an hour!

to Cesar Chavez. As a matter-of-fact most of the farm workers in my area, although 60% of hispanic descent, are born Americans, the children and grandchildren of the original laborers Cesar Chavez fought for.

I remember the people were saying that no American would be able to afford fruits or vegetables if Chavez's demands were met. How wrong they were! Then they figured out a way to get cheaper labor into the country and under cut the Union.
And here we are today, getting hosed by organized crime.

start at $7.00 or so, without benefits.

It's not picking grapes in the hot sun, but I sure hated working retail in a fabric store (customers were fine, managers were pigs).

I grew up in a ag area and did ag jobs as a kid. I think the term about grapes is cutting grapes, not picking. I agree with the rest of your post.
I always thought it was horseshit that Mexicans had to come and do the jobs. Pay enough, and people will do the jobs. The bracero(sp?) program started in California in the mid 50s. Big agriculture wanted a compliant, steady employment force, so they got Mexican Nationals to come in to do the work.
In my mind, repuke businessmen started this problem and it has gotten beyond their control. If they do anything like what they did in California with Prop 187, they will fuck up their own future.
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

retails for $3.00, an illegal picker gets about $12.00 an hour with no rights or benefits and the labor cost in that pint of berries is about 12 cents. Would it be reasonable to believe if they paid $24 an hour including benefits for the job that a lazy ass American would be willing to do the job. By my calculations that would raise the berries from $3.00 to $3.12. In addition to that the worker and employer would be paying into SS, unemployment and medical compensation along with local state and federal taxes, add that on and maybe they cost $3.20 a pint. I would be willing to pay that. The SS system sure as hell doesn't need any freeloaders, I bet 30 years from now these illegals will be demanding SS benefits which they never contributed to..

On edit: I too have worked
hay fields in the 90 degree sun
Shoveled cow shit
Worked bussing tables
Shoveled red hot coke into a 1200 degree oven
Worked cleaning oil out of mill cellars
Collected garbage and countless other jobs that lazy ass
Americans supposedly won't do.

Our company put out an add a couple years ago for 45 temporary workers paying $12 an hour with no benefits. We got over 800 applicants that were willing to work for that in the hopes that after a year they would be hired permanent with a good Union wage and benefits.

won't do

:thumbsup: And jobs Americans will have no choice in taking, once all the high paying jobs have been outsourced or the pay lowered by in sourcing guest workers.

As someone who lost a job that "no American will do" I find it INSULTING to me personally.

Please explain... ;)

Thanks for posting. I am behind you 100% on this one.

It is indeed a damn harsh slap in the face to all honest, hard-working middle class American workers! And it burns me up every time I hear it.
:mad:

in the summers of 70, 71 and 72. Pick up, stack on truck, unload in barn. Hay up the nose, in your ears, scratches all over your body. Then when the sun went down, go work part time at Wal-Mart, stocking shelves and sweeping the floors at closing time. In the fall, work at the apple orchards. I thoroughly enjoyed those jobs. Work that would kill bush or limbaugh.

Yeah, but don't forget, Bush just LOVES to clear that brush...
:sarcasm:

as quick as possible. And there was the occasional copperhead underneath a sheet of aluminum. How the owner wanted the hay stacked in the barn was our number one question. Tell us how ya want it so we only have to do it once. We needed those nickles. Most of the farms we did (me and my buddy and an old 51 Chevy Pickup), the Mrs was home so we had a steady supply of Lemonade.

And those were the times that you honestly thought, 'You know, there must be a god'.

You knew there had to be a god. the tea, the lemonade, the sandwiches was always at the right time too. No wonder we grew up to be the people we are today, strong, silent, gentle, loud and mean when needed. I love my country and I damn sure want it back.

I used to work for. (with ice cream on top!)

the mind set of the people, the sharing of ones ups and downs by total strangers, the sense of security it gave you. Yes I want my country back.

turn that bailer up and make the bails so damn heavy just to save a few pennies. As I look back they are the ones I would bet were repukes too. Yes it is only lies when it is said jobs americans don't/won't do.
Now I'm getting pissed all over again, dammit to hell anyway.

but I believe you may be a year or two older than me??? We did all our business in Washington County, mostly south and west of Prairie Grove. I preferred the heavy bales to the ones that fell apart as you picked them up. I do look back at those days very fondly. I was a lean, mean bootcamp machine in the fall of 72 thanks to all those bales of hay.

Is there such a thing as hay bucking anymore? Most folks have gone to the big round bales which certainly can't be bucked (not by anybody my size.)

so we preferred the tight ones. plus it would be less trips to the barn. work 12 hour days fixing flats, greasing cars, etc. then haul hay until 12-1 in the morning. Still got the spirit for it but not the bod. Come home some nights looking like I had been in a knife fight with ah, well you know. Put the old ford truck in granny, tie the steering wheel hopefully so you wouldn't run over any bales cause if you did it was hell to pay. Yes the joys of growing up in rural America back in the day. All the while thinking about the sweetie and all the fun to be had that weekend. I want my grandkids to have memories so Innocent, gw wants so much to take it away, i'm :mad:.

or those that pay less than minimum wage. Americans won't work at jobs where the employer refuses to give you the money you've rightfully earned. Americans won't work at jobs where they are told to do things they know will result in injury or death.

Like you, I grew up with not much money. I'd go around and scrounge soda pop bottles from garbage cans so I could get spending money by turning them in for the deposits. I'd help my brother with his paper route-he found if he took his little kindergartner sister with him to collect, people would give him bigger tips. I had no problem picking organic blueberries in exchange for food.

Sorry, but I call bullshit on this one. My American husband is a Marine and a police officer.

There are good Americans who get up every single day and go to work as law enforcement officers, firefighters, soldiers, etc and put their lives on the line--usually for not that much money.

how does it apply to the poster you're denigrating? Ppl who who aren't soldiers, firefighters and pigs still bust their ass all the time.

I'm just saying that Americans do plenty of dangerous jobs.

It is disrespectful to these Americans to claim that Americans are not willing to put themselves in danger in their jobs.

And I take great offense to your use of the word "pigs"--I hope you never need to call the police to help you--you don't deserve the help, clearly.

I never said that others do not "bust their ass" -- all I said was that it is factually wrong to claim that Americans are not willing to do dangerous jobs.

meant dangerous jobs where they have no legal protection. I don't believe she meant that American's won't do dangerous jobs at all - just that they will do them for a fair wage.

Most Americans have a better understanding of labor laws than an illegal immigrant. Most Americans know that if they perform a dangerous task they have legal recourse against the employer. They have the ability to get workman's comp, health benefits, and leave without pay.

Illegal immigrants know they have access to none of those things. That's why they are easier exploited.

So it goes without saying that Americans do dangerous jobs. But they hope to get paid accordingly for such tasks.

I'm talking about the people who are working in a chicken processing plant where they aren't provided with proper safety equipment, where the floors are slippery with blood and grease, and the machinery is defective.

This is my definition of danger in this case-a hazard that a worker reasonably should not have to encounter in the course of their work.

I have only respect for people who choose to go into the military/police/firefighting professions-but then they know what dangers they might face.

. . documented workers.

The first step in finding a solution that serves the common good on immigration (or anything else for that matter) is to look at the problem from a new perspective -- one that is grounded in some basic truths and moral principles.

I've taken a stab at outlining such an approach and would appreciate your thoughts on it.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:

• Going after predatory employers.


• Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:

• Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
  Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most types of work).


• Criminalize predatory employment practices.
  Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.


• Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
  Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.


• Increase resources and create special units as required
  Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Making implicit costs explicit

The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)

Radically changing the rules of the game

If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.

First things first

We can't begin to make progress until we impeach Bush and Cheney and purge the new American fascists from our public institutions ((Impeachment First)). Only then can we effectively engage in the messy -- but democratic -- process of dealing with this and other critical problems.

Conclusion

Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.

through state initiative processes. There are some damn fine ideas here (I even recognize some of them from a statement I made on another thread). Great minds think alike, I guess. ;)

This is another wedge issue that they are trotting out in an election year, like the Terri Schiavo tragedy, and partial birth abortion. It will soon disappear afterwards and things will go on as usual. Commercial interests and the billionaires club like things just as they are. They don't want any meaningful reform.

. . .the election!

Meaningful reform is meaningless to the reactionary right. Everything they do is driven by three things:

• Impatience


• Irresponsibility


• Blaming someone else

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Impeachment First
Our House is Burning. Stop Remodeling and Put Out the Fire!
http://january6th.org/impeachment_first.html

To Impeach, or Not Impeach?
That's the Wrong Question
http://january6th.org/impeachment-clobber-rationalizations.html

blurred that it's all up in the air.

I posted this earlier, but the thread sank:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x788437

"The topsy-turvy immigration debate."

In brief, I found out today that a life-long Repub I know, who hated Clinton, supported the Iraq invasion, doesn't think we should question authority has said he is going to vote for Hillary Clinton because her stand on illegal immigration is more liberal than the Rethugs. Mind you, his daughter just had a baby with her Mexican-citizen-here-illegally boyfriend. The house bill would make him (my neighbor) a felon for feeding the "illegal" boyfriend and his "illegal" father, brother and cousin Christmas dinner.

Knowing this man, I still haven't wrapped my brain around the whole thing. :crazy:

BTW, 'sorry to sidetrack the thread. Feel free, anyone, to respond on my original thread.

Working at the state-level can raise visibility, but instead of addressing the problem, dealing with immigration state-by-state can just move the problem next door.

As I noted in another thread (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=782024&mesg_id=782024)

that the federal government has been ignoring this growing problem for years. The only reason the Dems are considering it now is because the Repugs are trying to make bones about it. I really wish their was a federal initiative process, but, since there isn't, the only way to get citizen-born ideas past a complacent federal legislature is by pushing it through at the state level in an attempt to set off a domino effect.

ever think of running for office? :)

You're right though - it must be as a result of Democrats taking control of our government once again. The Repubs wouldn't DREAM of enforcing OSHA or FLSA.

It is the businesses that exploit who should be the ones being punished.

Thanks for the feedback!

On a related subject, your use of the phrase "business that exploit" reflects a tendency that I think many people on "our side" have.

When we discuss problems, we tend to depersonalize things. Perhaps it's a result of taking a more analytic approach, but whatever the reason, it can be counterproductive.

When problems are defined in abstract terms, they tend to generate complaint, not action. Voters are far more likely to be activated when a person or class of people are defined as the cause of a problem. People don't tend to get as worked up when they don't have an image of somebody they can "do something about."

The label Predatory Employer defines specific actors within the "businesses that exploit."

To date, it is the undocumented workers that have been the focus of anger -- the people "we can do something about." It is time to focus anger on people who play a far more significant role: the Predatory Employers.

By labeling them, and using the label, we can transform the debate.

Abstractions -- like the underground economy -- can seem unmanageable and overwhelming. In every human endeavor, it is the collective actions of people that drive a system. When we focus on specific individuals acting within the system we simplify and clarify our thinking.

For example, "Bush is wiretapping Americans without a warrant" provokes a more powerful response than the abstract term "warrantless wiretaps." Just implying the subject by using "wiretapping" is more effective than "wiretaps." And shows like Law and Order have made the phrase "without a warrant" far more familiar than "warrantless."

The trick is to identify the actors and give them a label they have earned. For example:

• "Robber Barons CEOs" is more effective than "Corporate America."


• "Election thieves" (or "stealing elections" -- which implies the subject) is more effective than "Election Theft."


• "Election officials who fail to conduct believable elections" is more effective than "flawed election systems."


• "Fascists infiltrators," "American neo-fascists," or "Bush, Cheney and their co-conspirators" are effective than "administration." Although they are abstractions, "regime" or "syndicate" are useful too because the terms call up an image of the players (e.g., racketeers or authoritarians).

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

Have you started your own thread with this?

alongside illegals from South America. The job was hard but the pay was good for a college kid with no money. I guess we are not Americans in brush's eyes, even though I put in 20 years in the military. I guess being in the military is another job Americans wont do. :mad:

baled hay.........sorted green beans...corn.......picked apples in fall.

.got enough money for school expenses and money to go out.....

theres nothing to be ashamed about when one uses their hand to work........actually they took great pride on earning their own money.

yes.the Farmer's could have hired people coming from southern states.......but they choose to hire the local kids..........I'm glad they did.........taught alot of kids.the meaning of the word...working for your money..

It would save a lot of trouble all the way around. The problem is that sometimes the farm year doesn't correspond to the school year.

I have one sleeping in my house right now who could really use that wake-up call. ;-)

one here can tell me what state and year American born workers burned to death in the last ten years because the exit doors were locked in a plant packaging fried chicken? It barely made the evening news. No one even went to jail as far as I know. Clearly we've gone back to the 19th century as far as workers' rights are concerned. Child labor, anyone?

without googling, too. What do I win?

Imperial Food Products plant in Hamlet, North Carolina, September 3, 1991

but not the location. Thanks for the reminder.

from King shit.

and stated that a company could not find American workers to fill jobs in his area........I dispute this fact.they could fill jobs but the price of housing is sky high as per enclosed article link.......either all these people who are illegals live together and pay the rent .or the government is funding housing for them...This has yet to be proven.......



http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-affordablehousing-mar18,0,7076097.story?track=mostemailedlink



Affordable housing crunch in Florida hits teachers

By Andrea Fanta
The Associated Press
Posted March 18 2006, 11:43 AM EST

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Megan Hamilton got a job teaching third-graders in the Naples area after she graduated from college.

But she had to quit before teaching a single lesson because she couldn't find an affordable place to live in one of Florida's most expensive home markets.




"The prices were outrageous for one person on a teacher's salary," the 23-year-old said. "If I wasn't coming in with student loans and debt, I might have been able to scrape by and do it."

Skyrocketing home prices have made it difficult for teachers to come to Florida, a state where teacher salaries are $6,000 below the national average. School district leaders say they are struggling to attract teachers, even as they try to meet restrictions on class sizes that voters approved four years ago.

in the committee session. Said she did sort of an experiment by posting notices for the jobs the immigrants were doing, and no native born workers responded. That was when she changed her mind about the need for illegal immigration. Of course, she didn't say what wage rate she advertised.

I have Parkinson's. No one wants to hire me. I need money. Any job that you have I'll do. Thank you Danny.

How was that trip to D.C.? If you posted about it I missed it.

mr dickhead preznit go away already
My head will be held high as long as I can hold it. I'm proud of who I am, where I've been and what I have done.

.....not basis what so ever for those who are serious about caring for loved ones.:banghead: But it sounds good when nothing else works.:boring:

Been there done that.

Started working doing farm work at the age of 7. Picked up, cleaned and packed eggs. Milked cows. Raked and helped put up hay. Mucked out the barn. Worked cattle. Picked fruit. Gardened and helped put up the harvest. Looked after my younger brother and prepared lunch everyday.

Went to college. Earned 3 graduate degrees and 2 professional licenses. I have now been unemployed for over 3 years and collected over a thousand rejection letters. I've even been turned down for a part-time job in a charity thrift store.

I too feel personally insulted whenever I hear somebody say that immigrants do jobs that Americans won't do. I've done some of those jobs. Heck, I'm considering burning my apparently worthless diplomas and starting my own little cottage industry industry grooming dogs or working as a pooper scooper.

I also feel insulted whenever somebody suggests that "getting a good education" is the key to having a successful career. At the very least that statement ignores issues of skill and fails to distinguish between education for its own sake and the need for credentials to enter certain fields of endeavor.

There is something very, very wrong in this country. Despite the fact that skilled blue collar workers are often more successful in terms of financial earnings than their white collar counterparts, there is an undeserved and uninformed stigma against blue collar and manual laborers.

We have become a society where everything is about winning and everybody has to have somebody to look down on. Suggesting that only immigrants are willing to do certain kinds of work is demeaning to both us Americans who have done and continue to do those kinds of jobs and also to the immigrant workers.

Clearly, it is all about the money - and the power, prestige and sense of dominance that come with it.

while maybe not using those exact words has decided to turn his back on workers that are citizens or legally here.
I've been a roofer in Tucson, worked on an S.P. steel gang from Lordsburg N.M to Tucson, ran a bacon slicing machine for Oscar Meyer in Chicago, lumped trucks in San Francisco and I'm a lightweight gringo.
There are very few if any jobs that citizens won't do. But there are many they will not do for a pittance.
Now I'm gonna bail before the posters that like screaming racist, xenophobe etc. show up to tell us American workers are unworthy and we should welcome anyone that wants a job in this country.
And just to piss them off a tad more, Maybe Nader was right, neither party represents the blue-collar working class.

Please explain?

but Kennedy has co-sponsored a bill to give amnesty to 11, 12 or god knows how many million illegal immigrants in this country. His "bringing them out of the shadows" means they can then move into better jobs putting more downward pressure on wages that have stagnated since '78.
I guess he must feel that then citizens can do the jobs Hispanics won't.

Have you read it? What are you talking about?

suddenly legal. There might be some Orwellian name they come up with but still it is amnesty.

Oxford American Dictionary: Amnesty: a general pardon, especially for offenses against a country.

Eleven, twelve, or however many millions of immigrants here in violation of our nations law suddenly becoming legal certainly looks like amnesty.

I think you're confusing Kennedy with Bush.

If they are not, they have been granted a legal status. Amnesty, unless they return to their own countries and apply for entry based on the record they had of working here anf living a lawful life here.

I don't have too read the entire bill to know that he and McCain are offering them a legal status without going through normal process of immigration.

ITS AMNESTY

any sort of amnesty or pardoning. Just putting them behind all those who made their applications properly is quite the punishment, I would say. And getting anyone who snuck in here to go thru the immigration red-tape should be considered a good thing, wouldn't you say?

Giving them protections against abusive employers, security in their right to organize, and legal, living wages should go a long way in leveling the field for all those who are in competition for the labor they provide. It can only benefit every worker in this country, to have the threat of being "undercut" removed from the picture.

and two thousand bucks is probably less than they paid the coyote that smuggled them into OUR country.
They committed a crime when they crossed the border and if they've been working here, it's probable they used phony documents which is a felony. Few applicants with felonies are allowed to immigrate here, so it's worse than amnesty.
And we will be undercut, by the next group of illegals. The amnesty of '86 exacerbated the problem of illegal immigration and to think this will be different is naive.
Reward them and they will come. And Kennedy, McCain rewards them for illegal behavior.

Simply giving amnesty did absolutely nothing to reduce the number who found it desirable to come here seeking work. The increased security and added agents at the border in the Kennedy bill addresses ending that flow.

What do you suggest then? What do you think of the Sensenbrenner bill, if tightening border security, alone, does no good?

Is there anything in his bill about seriously penalizing those doing the hiring? Not chickenshit fines but taking a contractors license to do business. Not allowing those that hire illegal aliens to receive government contracts. Significant fines per illegal hire per day. If it bankrupts some business another will step up to do the job. That is how to address the problem in the quickest, most efficient, most cost effective way. Just enforce the laws that are on the books.
Selling out the citizenry of this country for a paltry $ 2,000 dollars is bogus. That amount, if given to a school district in Arizona, wouldn't pay one third the cost of trying to educate that illegals child for one year. That amount would probably not cover much more than a visit to the Emergency Room where most of these people are receiving their medical care. Ten times that amount wouldn't cover the cost of incarcerating one of the thousands of convicted felons, in this country illegally, for one year. It's a laughable amount and just enough so they can act as if they are doing something significant.
We often hear about the increased border enforcement but rarely see it.
Border Patrol agents I've spoken with, estimate they get about ten percent of those trying to cross. Is Kennedy going to increase their numbers tenfold or increase it a token amount that might get one quarter, one third or even half?
Come down here to the Arizona border and see what those patrols have to contend with, where miles of the border are only a barbed wire fence.
None of these people will address the problem where it lies, the employers of these illegals. They would rather, as is so often the case with our "representatives", put on a dog and pony show that has little serious effect on the real problem.
I can't really tell whether you are defending Kennedy or the illegals or both but I can't be convinced that the actions of either are defensible.
Call me sentimental but I have much greater concern for my fellow citizens than for those that will come here and undercut them for their jobs. The cost of amnesty will be tremendous in so many ways and once done can't be undone.

hire citizens of other countries working here illegally doesn't seem to be a priority for either party. I would like to see both immigration bills shelved so we have more time to demand that crackdown on business.

BTW, I mentioned that to a pro-business, repub friend and she blanched and was left speechless for a time. Business is sacred, you know!

especially the republican brand of rich american who would rather pay below minimum wage.

or paint their house. American kids can flip burgers as well as anybody.

and if I can't afford to hire a Union carpenter, plumber or electrician, I do some research and figure out how to do the job myself.

I do think that people from the Southwest and So. Cal., who've relied on cheap, illegal immigrant labor for a century, can't quite grasp that idea.

It's the fat cats in Bel Air and other very rich neighborhoods who have acres that need to be tended to and don't forget all the golf courses and parks that need gardeners too.

from or what you are trying to say.

are Mexican. It's not because Americans don't want the jobs, it's because the CEO wants and prefers to keep wages low and profits sky high. After all he has two yachts, expensive homes all over the world and he has to be able to afford the upkeep on them.

n/t

couldn't go back to doing that. I have dual Master's degrees, but decided I wanted to try something totally new and head in another direction. It was impossible to find a job. They came up with all kinds of excuses: I was too educated and would probably get bored. I would expect too much money. Blah, blah, blah. No one, despite what I told them, was willing to give me a job, because they thought my education and experience would cost them too much.

I finally had to resort to "dumbing down" my resume so that people wouldn't have those expectations. People saw me totally different and figured hiring me for a $10/hour job was fine. I was happy with that, because I knew I was starting over, but it meant that I had to lie to get a job and then spring it on my employer that I was a little more than what he thought he was getting.

Most places never even gave me the opportunity for a job...they ASSUMED I wasn't willing to work in the job and under the conditions I was applying for.

back in the eighties. When Fox bought out her station, she got fired. Other news outlets didn't want her because she probably didn't fit their bimbo profile. She ended up being homeless because no one would hire her, even though she was willing to work as a secretary a receptionist, a hostess, anything. Eventually, her plight got on the air and showbiz people that she had known as a new's person helped her out.

while I was starting my own business. I dressed in a professional manner (seems like a good way to show that you want the job) and the guy who interviewed me said, "You don't really want this job. It doesn't pay enough."

with American stories, disputing the "jobs Americans won't do."

Why not write to your Reps, Senate & House & tell them how you feel?

Congress is being lobbied by the construction industry, hospitality industry, etc.

They need to hear from the people they supposedly represent, with stories of the true American work ethic.

CONGRESS...IMPEACH THESE CRIMINALS! Or, give up your jobs, to somebody who wants to work, for WE THE PEOPLE!

except there were American's doing these jobs as I recall. Thousands and thousands of American jobs outsourced under Bush.

Shit, the whole world is doing jobs American's used to do.

I have walked knee deep in human feces (wearing waders granted). The smell still haunts me as do the words 'Sanitary Sewer.' It was a summer job for me but there were guys who did it full-time year round. They were uneducated tough guys with blue collar roots and generally good hearts. They had medical insurance and decent pay as well as safety standards as any worker should in this country.

Jobs Americans won't do, my ass... Jobs suburbanite whitebread little turds won't do or can't do. Put the money and proper bennies in it and they'd be surprised what Americans won't do.

Thank you for pointing this out.

Once again, they live up to the name.

I also had a large family (11 of us) and I can remember my dad working 2 jobs and Saturdays just to keep us clothed and fed. My dad was not an educated man. He left school at 14 to work supporting his family during the depression. He learned a trade (welding) during WWII. I get a little teary eyed thinking about his sacrifices to provide us a better life.

I think the worst job I ever had was when I was in college and I worked at a plumbing company in the summer digging up and replacing sewer lines. Ankle deep in raw sewage in 100 degree heat for $5.00 an hour ( back when the min wage was $2.65). It was a nasty job but it paid well enough to cover books and housing for school.

The work ethic is alive and well in America. I know there are plenty of Americans that are just like my dad and myself at 20, willing to put in a fair days work for a fair days wages knowing you can work your way into the middle class. They are forgotten and will be left behind because of wave after wave of cheap, exploitable labor.

The sad fact is that the illegal that is working his way out of poverty will be replaced by cheaper labor before his dream is realized as well. All thanks to our bought / paid for government and their corporate overlords.

Based on the road we are on now, I foresee a day when we will have 20 percent unemployment by the underclass and an almost non-existent middle class kind of like the powder keg that is France and other European countries today.

Anecdotal example: My former boss and I occasionally have lunch and discuss the state of the world. He's a Republican who voted twice for Bill Clinton, then the Idiot, and most recently for John Kerry. He has a problem with the religious right/culture war aspects of the Republican Party - The Brand W Party. But ....

He's a rich guy with mostly oil business millionaire friends and he fed me some horseshit last week. He tells me that his friend who has some construction contracts for rebuilding New Orleans just can't find a white man or a black man to go to New Orleans and work. So .... you guessed it, he has hired undocumented workers from Central America because they are so anxious to work, they really want the jobs. Of course these workers are living in tent camps provided by the contractors.

My ex-boss, who should be intelligent enough to see through this charade, nonetheless really believes now that nobody but brown-skinned people are willing to work.

I've decided not to have any more of these lunches for awhile. This last one so totally pissed me off.

for those contractors to hire workers and pay less than minimum wage? Yeah, I think your friend's friend's story is B.S.

...that most of us started out with...remember back in high school - and shortly after. It's how we got started - what kind of work do teenagers do these days? Do they even work anymore?

If I had to, there is precious little I would not do to get by. (I DO draw the line at prostitution.)

Now, I say this from a place of relative prosperity, but I know (and sometimes expect) that it could be gone tomorrow. Would I turn my nose up at manual labor, if it helped to feed my family? No. So I see what you are saying here and I am prone to agree.

sense of morality, to take care of their families.

And yes, even us Americans.

is a more true statement

The very idea that there is work Americans won't do is such bullshit. Americans will do any job, but not for $3 or $5 an hour.

The people who do my lawn are old and white. The guys who take care of my trees and remove problem trees or branches are black. The guys who work on my septic system are white. The guys who put my new roof on are good old boys from the sticks.

They're all Americans, and I could have undercut them by going and getting illegal workers who would do the work cheaper, but Homey don't play that.

I like your style.

I, too, am always fussing over who will put on the roof, or...you get the picture. I don't go for the lowest estimate, EVER. My husband finds that annoying, LOL. Once I explained to him the real price of labor, he understood and expects my input on such decisions. We have local folks doing the roof, recommended by other locals.

I have nothing against recent immigrants; but I will pay money to ensure that a working American is still getting a shot. I am the least xenophobic person in the world, but I still say, if you want a middle class? Help build and maintain it. This downward race to the cheapest is just plain short-sighted.

On edit: clarity of thought

I'm concerned that we are squeezing out those Americans who have to depend on their ability to do hard manual labor to pay their bills.

The crews on homebuilding that used to be poor to modest income Americans are gone now, replaced by illegal immigrants who will work cheaper and not demand anything.

same old, same old