Paying illegal immigrants = OK, but outsourcing not okay?

Help me understand the logic here. Why is it okay for companies to hire illegal immigrants, pay them below minimum wage under the table, but NOT okay for the same companies to outsource their jobs to overseas countries for the same type of cheap labor? It seems to me that in both cases, you're taking jobs away from American citizens and other legal immigrants or workers that could be doing those jobs.

It seems to me that many of the arguments people bring up to justify paying illegal immigrants are the same types of arguments people used to justify slavery. The economy would collapse without slavery, slaves do jobs that white people wouldn't do, etc.

and most people here are middle-class professionals. Therefore outsourcing is very, very bad.

Illegal immigrant labor mostly affects blue-collar workers, and very few people here fit that description. Therefore illegal immigrant labor is very, very good.

It's a matter of whose ox is being gored.

I'm blue collar working class myself, but I have a feeling I'm in the minority.

It seems to me that many of the arguments people bring up to justify paying illegal immigrants are the same types of arguments people used to justify slavery. The economy would collapse without slavery, slaves do jobs that white people wouldn't do, etc.

But we also argue they should have an equal stake in our economy and should have the same rights as any citizen should have due to the hard work they've demonstrated while coming here. I personally, argue for an open border and a united economic structure with Canada and maybe Mexico structured in an EU-like manner attracting lesser democracies to reshape themselves for entrance and strengthening the American economy and global economy as a whole. I think that something of that sort should also have standardized labor laws protecting those within the union..

My point however, is that we do argue they should be treated like any other citizen -something far different from your connection with the slavery argument...

We've already seen what a disaster "free trade" is. Opening up the borders like that would only lead to more American jobs being lost, as more and more companies would just outsource their jobs to Mexico. You're sure as hell not going to see any Mexican companies setting up factories here in the US. It works in Europe, because most European countries are on a somewhat level playing field, with strong labor laws. Currently, there's just too much imbalance between the US and Mexico.

But if Mexico were part of an economic union of that sort it owuld be common sense for them to be required to have the same labor laws as the US and Canada as well as have a standard currency. It could work if the countries try toward it enough. It would, however, take a very long time -especially at the rate we're going now with foreign relations in South America.

there is something really wrong about that.

n/t

their doors to US citizens wanting to compete for jobs--they have enough people of their own to worry about, thank-you very much. There would also be questions of culture, currency, etc. Moreover, exactly WHY should a US citizen be required to move to India in order to read his stateside neighbor's x-ray? And let's not even get into the question of the energy consumption and environmental damage inherent in such widespread migrations.

Labor is only supposed to move in one direction--straight to the bottom.

free trade would cause such a thing? If practiced right, I thin it could be avoided. There may be some confusion as to what exacltly I am condoning in taht post. See the one before that.

and the primary result of "free" migration would be the migration of the poor northwards. It would be an exascerbation of the problems we currently face with wage arbitration and social safety net erosion and an export of those problems to Canada. Many of the factories that were opened in Mexico due to NAFTA have left and the Mexican people are vying for jobs at the remaining ones. Surely they wouldn't welcome US or Canadian competition for those jobs. It's a one-way street.

Mexico's problems would be best addressed by the election of populist leaders, not by more neoliberal thinktank solutions. My hope is that the Mexican people elect Obrador and take a page from the leftists in SA.

I've only scratched the surface of "free" migration here, but a more complete unification of NA (and then the Americas) is even more problematic. Since I believe that the most important problems we face are increases in corporate power at the expense of representational governmental power, I'm adamantly opposed.

I'd be perfectly happy to discuss the issue further but perhaps you could first explain why you feel free migration and/or unification are desirable?

A union like that would not be successful with mexico unless mexico changes it's labor laws and economies to make it desirable. A NA union would first start with Canada and combine two very desirable economies. Canada and the United States are kind of unofficially that way(as illegal immigrants from Canada do not ahve to worry in the least about criminal penalties as much as those from the south). Allowing free trade and migration while enforcing a more global standard in which countries will stand by -including a standard currency between the nations, would begin protecting those workers who come across the border as well as giving us stronger competition with the EU as they continue to grow.

than importing labor. The immigrants coming in often have children that need educating but know no english.
The Emergency Rooms provide a large part of their medical care with no payment from them. The TV just told of a smuggler hauling 50 or so persons in a horse trailer that wrecked. We in Pima County will pick up the tab for them because the injured will not be taken into custody by the Border Patrol until they are treated and released. The Feds sly way of passing the cost off to us. The newscast also mentioned that in 2000 the cost to Pima County hospitals was seventy million dollars for un-reimbursed treatment of illegals. I'm sure it's up a great deal since then.
No matter what is said here about all the illegals being here and just wanting to work, a significant percentage of the felons incarcerated here are illegal aliens. One they just caught today had a California warrant for his arrest for forcible rape of a child.
The cost of educating, medicating and incarcerating illegal immigrants is significant to all of us. We don't have those costs when out-sourcing.
I'm not in favor of out-sourcing or hiring illegal immigrants but out-sourcing is the less costly of the two.

And gets respent (this is called the multiplier effect)

this country was treating our citizens with the dignity that we deserve. That's not the case.

Wages are in the toilet, social services are busting wide open, the cost of health care is soaring (for those who have it at all), we are fighting a delusional war, and now they are talking about privatizing social security.

This is all insane. We are constantly being presented with horrible choices by a government that don't even have it's priorities in order.

but many blame the undocumented workers (or "illegals") for choosing higher paying jobs than they'd otherwise be able to get.

i like to think that is the difference between the conservative and the liberal approach to illegal immigration.

Conservatives blame the workers while having no problem claiming a god-given entitlement to the fruits of the inequity, while liberals or progressives see the workers and their northern migration as the natural result of a deteriorating economy (due to global corporatism) and the corporate complacency of the land of milk and honey.

Big Business likes the conservative approach, since it deflects the ire of america from them and towards the poor migrant worker.

crossing the border (illegally) to get here. Others are doubly frustrated by the erosion of social safety nets. These issues aren't involved in off-shoring.

That said, I believe most DUers keep focused on the real problem--greedy corporate elites and the politicians who represent them.

but outsourcing is very difficult to control, because it's something that is the result of globalization and it's something that's taken its own course. Multinational companies don't have loyalty to any one country, though they should be within the laws of the nation they're operating in. IMO it's actually easier to understand the motives of an employer that is outsourcing jobs, since it's a egal and easy way to cut costs and compete. Plus, the people accepting those jobs are not commiting any crimes. They are simply taking advantage of a good situation. The jobs going to other countries are much better than those already existing there. Note, I'm not defending the situation. Both have the same net effect in lowering wages, though one is illegal and the other is legal.

The problem with illegal immigration is that it's well, illegal. Breaking the law coming in is a poor way of starting life as a resident of a nation that claims to pride itself on the rule of law.

Neither is especially good for American workers in the long run.

But personally I haven't really seen anyone defending either and it's important for people to not blame the person accepting the job...though I don't see anything wrong with insisting that people follow the law when entering this country.

because now we ARE fighting it at home.

I think we should demand that all jobs that can be outsourced to other countries whose citizens would benefit be written into law.

for the possibility of anyone in America to have any job... We don't even have the chance to apply of course unless we lived in India... I see that as a rather huge difference...

.. there is a large contingent of DUers that are no more than Republicans coming from teh other side. They do not think about any issue, they just knee jerk into charges of "racism" or worse.

Illegal immigration is WORSE than outsourcing. At least outsourcers have to pay taxes. The sad fact that lots of armchair know-it-alls here cannot acknowledge is that huge numbers of illegals are paid in cash, totally off the books.

Believe the stats from the government on this issue because it suits you, when you know damn well the unemployment numbers are fudges, the inflation numbers are fudged, any number they don't want you to know is fudged.

I haven't heard anybody say t's okay to pay illegals less than minimum wage or under the table. I've heard people say that this is the reason we need immigration reform, so that these things don't happen so we stop creating an underclass who do drive wages down.

I've also heard some dumb arguments, including "jobs Americans won't do"; and others twisting arguments beyond all recognition, like you just did.