Should baseball erase records of players caught using steroids?

I'm not sure myself. It certainly isn't fair that Bonds can use steroids and break the home run record of a true class act like Hank Aaron. On the other hand, if you start erasing records for one thing, where do you stop? Should Ty Cobb's records be erased because he was a racist pig?

What do y'all think?

AOL has a poll going on this question:

http://articles.news.aol.com/sports/article.adp?id=20060329192209990005

If baseball finds out players did use steroids, what should their penalty be?
Both (suspend and take away records) 59%
Take away records 19%
Nothing 14%
Suspension 8%
Total Votes: 13,078

They were legal in the game until 2 years ago.

Pre-integration records still stand. This is just another repellent era that we will have to live with.

But illegal under federal law.

Steroid use was illegal for anyone to use. Baseball didn't have a specific ban on them, just as they don't have a ban on murder.

Baseball isn't a sovereign state. If something is ILLEGAL in general society, then it is ILLEGAL on the baseball field. If a player can be proven to have been taking steriods, then it is thus proven that he was acting under the influence of ILLEGAL substances.

private enterprise. I want to see senators strutting and posturing on capital hill decrying the downfall of this once virtuous game. Then, I want to see Congress tell MLB how to run their business.

That's what I want to see.

Baseball has a congressionally approved exemption from antitrust laws. If baseball wants Congress to butt out, then they should be willing to give up their special status.

not impossible to go back and change or erase the records because the rules were not in place when the so-called infractions took place. One reporter said that they might have to put astericks next to the disputed records in the books to designate the controversial plays.

like Bonds? I can see where it would be difficult to go back and punish a retired player like McGwire.

a historic reminder of their bogus records and how they "achieved" them.

who gets to decide what is bogus? you?

Don't get snarky.

I'm not even a baseball fan, or much of a team sports fan in general. I'm speaking on broader principle. I don't care who the player or what the sport is. If it can be know factually that a player was using performance-enhancing drugs during the time his/her records were set, I think an asterisk is a fine "remedy." It doesn't remove the performance from the record books, since we cannot really know if that athlete could have been capable of the performance without the substances. And that is the beauty of the asterisk...we aren't saying one way or another. It would indicate that the athlete in question was known to be taking steroids at the time, while leaving up to the reader to accept the performace as valid or not.

The individual would get to decide whether or not he/she considers bogus.

barry bonds did not break the rules of baseball. why do you arbitrarily single him out? i can clearly see you are not a baseball fan. just a casual person that gets all their info from the newscrawler.

First of all, I never singled out ANYONE. YOU asked if Babe Ruth's records should be asterisked/expunged. I responded, with what I think is a very reasonable and level-headed explanation. And you go all snarky and snot-assed on me. Piss off. I thought you were looking for a serious discussion, but you're obviously just trolling from some flames.

Now you have mine.

which rule barry bonds has broken? it makes as much sense to put asterisks next to barry bonds as it does babe ruth - none.

so i guess there must be some other reason to asterisk bonds.

You asked me about Babe Ruth, now you're dogging me about Bonds. Take a Xanax, brother.

whose bogus records were you referring to?

you base this claim of bogus records on what? you don't really know.

Leave me alone. You don't even know what the fuck you're arguing with me about.

#1) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2542946

-- This post pretty clearly states "It certainly isn't fair that Bonds can use steroids and break the home run record of a true class act like Hank Aaron."

-- To which I offered a pretty generic response...

#2) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=793119&mesg_id=793174

-- To which you responded asking if Babe Ruth's records should be stripped, to which I again posted a largely generic response concerning any athlete who broke the rules of the sport in which they're competing.

#3) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=793119&mesg_id=794865

-- At which point you just turned into a total shitheal.

As I said, take a Xanax. Maybe chase it with a scotch. Sorry I got involved.

what you are saying is that people suspected of doing something that was within the rules of baseball when they did it should be singled out and persecuted. that is reasonable for a non-sports fan to say. there are problably other groups you think should be "asterisked" or removed from the history of the games they play. thank you for the discussion.

I did say "Follow the thread," and I even gave you the links. I said "if it could be PROVEN" that a particular athlete broke the rules of his/her sport, did I not?

Is this all becoming clear to you yet? I won't extend a "you're welcome" to your "thank you," but I'd certainly accept an apology for your being such a dick about stuff I very clearly never said.

there is no possible way to retroactively test someones blood. all tests taken since the substances were banned were passed by this so-called "record breaker". so what bogus records are you referring to? or as a non-baseball fan, do you not know?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

it helps to discuss it when you are aware of all the facts.

and you are stating that regardless of the rules of baseball, you feel that these people should be singled out. are you not?

It also helps, I suppose, to be a Barry Bonds worshipper. Just how many times do I have to say "if it can be known" or "proven," or whatever.

Buh bye. Say a prayer to Barry for me.

it seems you would retroactively punish people, not for breaking the rules of their sport at the time, but the rules of the current game.

your hatred of bonds becomes apparent, however in your frustration.

have a nice day.

There is the matter of his testimony to a federal grand jury and the sworn testimony of others.

of major league baseball?

it artifically boosts your ability to hit the ball farther, to run faster, etc. That gives you an unfair competitive advantage. Cheating should not be rewarded.

I'd have no problem with giving Gaylord Perry the same treatment. He couldn't throw a pitch that wasn't loaded with spit.

a system has been put in place to punish the use of banned substances.

do you feel it was an unfair advantage to white players in the early to midpart of the last century to not play against minority players and inflate their stats against less than stellar competition? how do we deal with their statistics and records?

Black players could not compete in the sports premier arena and white players were denied the chance to challenge themselves against the best players out there.

I'm not sure how to remedy that today, other than treating Negro League stats as if they were ML stats. I think it's a shame that Buck O'Neil wasn't voted into the HoF this year.

How do you feel about a player still active today who has been shown to have used steroids? Should he be allowed to continue to play?

these records should have an asterisk. i think it is ludicrous do with those stats and the stats of those accused of using perfomance enhancers.

i believe a player active today should be held accountable to todays rules. a system has been put in place. you can't retroactively enforce it. a good example is the nfl system put in place in the 80's. from that point on, it was unacceptable to use these substances, the past was the past. they realized that it would be impossible to selectively punish teams and individuals for rules that were not in place to follow.

Babe Ruth indulged in alcohol and was a bigtime womanizer. Neither drinking or womanizing has been shown to enhance one's ability to hit a baseball. Actually, it probably detracts from that ability.

But if Ruth or anyone else in baseball is shown to have used performance enhancers, they should get the same treatment.

Using steroids cuts to the integrity of the game. It poses the same risk to baseball as gambling -- because fans will turn it off if they think the fix is in.

what would the asterisk signify? who decides who gets the asterisk? how far back do you go?

baseball itself turned a blind eye to this use. so what games integrity do you speak of? the integrity of ruths era that banned minorities from competing with whites? or the integrity that allowed performance enhancing drugs for decades so we could cheer for magwire and sosa and higher scoring games?

hatred of bonds is fueling this uproar, not concern for integrity of the game.

It is a violation of federal law to abuse steroids. He needed a grant of immunity before he testified before a grand jury.

Personally, I don't like the asterisk. It was wrong to put it next to Maris' record all those years.

that is the issue here.

I don't think that someone who rapes or murders or sells heroin or trafficks in child porn should be allowed to continue to play baseball. Whether that player's records should be expunged or whether he belongs in the HoF depends on whether what he did enhanced his performance on the field somehow.

So, if Bonds knocked off a grocery store he shouldn't be allowed to play, but it shouldn't affect any records he set.

performance enhancing drugs?

do you feel this is the case regardless of whether the rules are broken?

that when you break the law -- a serious case like drug dealing or assault -- you should not be allowed to continue to play. The only way that should go even further and affect your records of HoF status is if you did something to enhance your performance.

If it was not for the BALCO case, the subsequent investigation, Bond's testimony, sworn witness testimony, etc., I'd say there was little chance of proving Bonds was using steroids. Suspicion alone would not be sufficient. This is something of a unique circumstance because of the BALCO investigation.

Or Vida Blue's? After all, they did time on drug charges (weed for Fergie, cocaine for Vida).

And, as to Bonds' "testimony", you are aware that this is leaked grand jury testimony, right? It's not as if Bonds was sworn in a public hearing. And if we're to be so beholden to the law and the authorities, does it interest you that the federal prosecutors who went after BALCO didn't prosecute Barry? So if the law has not deemed him guilty and Selig cannot produce one MLB rule that Bonds violated at the time he was setting the home run records, what's the asterisk for?

You are absolutely right. Baseball and baseball fans and so called baseball purist all turned a blind eye to the Roids boom that began in the early 90s. Now that Bonds, who the media hates, is within reach of Babe Ruth's records, they all come out of the woodwork talking about "integrity". Bullshit.

There is no doubt Bonds used, so did McGwire, Sosa, Canseco, palmeiro, Caminiti and many many others, will all their records get expunged? I think at least half of baseball tried either hardcore roids or pro-hormones (which are now illegal). Should all those records be deleted? This issue is ridiculous.

i did not see nearly this level of outrage. baseball history is full of this double standard. the funniest part is when the "integrity of the game" enters the debate. because everyone is so concerned with the integrity of the game.

other than excuse that others were also doing it.

Its not an excuse, its common sense and fairness. If you punish Barry, then you must punish the others. Its only fair.

mcgwire wasn't breaking the rules either. i wasn't outraged then and i'm not now. one thing i have in common with you bonds haters - not outraged about the big white guy roiding it up.

A big dose of outrage should be directed at Bud Selig for not doing something about this years ago. He had to wait till it reached this point.

Fay Vincent and Bart Giamatti would have moved a whole lot faster and more decisively than Selig.

And says look Barry, you blew it, the only way to salvage anything of your reputation is to retire before you break any records.

Does anyone even track that?

If you have proof that the players were using steroids, then their records should be taken away. The performance enhancing drugs taints the records.

I see your point with Ty Cobb, however, there is a difference in that Ty Cobb may have been a racist bastard, but that didn't help his performance on the field.

no asterisk, no exceptions...let people know what happens to folks that do steroids

doesn't keep bands out for illegal drug use.

to get into that HoF.

It looks like he is out of the game now, never failed a drug test and there is no one offering firsthand accounts of steroid use. Yet every thinking person suspects him of steroid use.

(BTW, I heard a very funny - and slanderous - story about Sosa last night from a guy from his hometown. I would repeat it but I could be sued by Sammy, his wife, his youngest child and a male singer. So I won't repeat it.)

Anyway, what do you do with Sammy?

you would have to have credible evidence of steroid use. Widespread assumption would not qualify. I haven't read the book yet, but in the case of Bonds, it appears there is significant evidence of his steroid use.

But if similar evidence turned up against Sosa, then the same should apply to him.

starting with his start with the Flubs (thin, wiry, strong, but still a good hitter)
to his great 4bagger race with the other druggie.

Those gorilla arms, his temper tantrums, his unrealistic and unbelievable build? Come on, who was he kidding? He could have opened a pharm office inside his cubs locker, I'd bet.


As to the issue at hand, we as a society need to make some decisions. Hard ones. Even about silly wastes of time like this pasttime.

a few years ago top olympiad athletes were asked (without ID'ing themselves) whether they would take a drug that would almost guarantee a victory in their sport - knowing that it would knock 5 yrs off of their lives. If memory serves (which it does not always do) more than 47% of those who responded said yes.

The need for victory, the willingness to do anything to get there, and the natural human competitiveness are hugely important. On one hand, if people want to destroy their health in the pursuit of awards, pieces of ribbon and metal, and 15 minutes of fame, more power to them. On the other, they provide kids with the wrong image of what it takes to succeed.

Remember when Sammy was with the Sox he hit his wife with a rum bottle and attacked a cop with a bat.

It's amazing how many of them claim they did not know the 'lotion' being rubbed on their butts in the locker rooms had roids in it. Men rubbing cream on other mens butts happens all the time in locker rooms - not 'How I was I supposed to know that the butt cream had roids. I'm just an innocent bystander.'

Ty Cobb isn't the only racists in baseball - look at Bonds for example - and an individual being a racists doesn't enhance his playing performance. Now, an argument could be made that baseball as an organization & institution was racists & blacks weren't allowed to compete with whites & therefore those records are tainted.

that being a racist pig like Cobb does not affect one's on-the-field performance. I brought that up because of the possibility that if you decide to change the record books for one reason (use of performance-enhancers), someone might suggest changing records for other reasons as well. Cobb was one example. I suppose one could argue that Babe Ruth was a disgusting alcoholic and shouldn't be glorified. There's a ton of examples.

You could say we would draw the line at things that affect athletic performance, but people do have a way of pushing the line out farther.

Mickey Mantle - womenizing lush - died of liver failure
Steve Garvey - adulterer
Chipper Jones - out of wedlock baby
Fergunson Jenkins - Pot smoker & admitted taking LSD during his no-hitter
Billy Martin - roid rage gambling drunk - without the roids
Pete Rose - womenizing gambler
George Steinbrenner - convicted felon - illegal campaign contributions to Nixon

& the beat goes on.

Pro sports often reflects what is going on in society at the time. Roids are even being used in high schools now.

It was Doc Ellis.

Fergie did something - pot? Believe Vida Blue participated in recreational drugs as well. I actually don't have a problem with that - it should all be legal. Great story - tripping while pitching a no-hitter - can you image that :)

But back then pitching a no-hitter against the Padres was no great accomplishment.

I think he had like 8 walks and hit 3 batters in that game. Obviously the LSD messed up his vision.

Just like our cheating, lying president.

beaten by cheaters. But I doubt that it will happen. Bud Selig isn't a strong enough commissioner

who is complicit in the whole roid scandal. It's not just the individual players who are on trail, but MLB & the owners are as well.

He was just soooo consistent.
I'd hate to see Bonds, a suspected juicer, have his name above the class act that Hank was, on the alltime HR list.
Aaron was/is a class act who put up with so much racist shit during his career and still put up big numbers.

listening to games on the radio in the days when the Braves really sucked. But there was always Hank Aaron to come through for the team -- Mr. Consistency, no towering mammoth shots over the scoreboard -- no 50-55 homer years, just plugging away year after year on mediocre teams.

Aaron will always be my baseball hero.

with the Brewers. I was only 6, and my dad took my brothers and I, to see "the greatest player in the game today". What a sight. He even hit one that night.

As many sports writers have been saying recently, it is not only the batters who have used steroids, but also the pitchers, so it created a somewhat level, drug-induced playing field. And we can never be sure about who used steroids, unless there is a desire to "get" a player like Bonds (because he has been unfriendly to the press) because you can't simply tell by looking at a player. (In tennis, for example, four Argentinian players have been busted for steroids, but none of them "looked" like steroid users.)

If they want to put asterisks next to players who we KNOW took steroids, fine. But then I think we should do the same to players who set records when the league was segregated, too, because we know that they also competed on a less than even playing field.

After all, Major League Baseball is not put on for the fans. Hall of Famers are voted in by the Baseball Writers of America, and no one else. They might bend to popular demand, as in the case with some players from the old Negro League. The records and statistics are kept not so much for fan edification as they are for proof that someone deserves or doesn’t deserve to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Outside of the cloister of Major League Baseball, the records mean nothing.

Major League Baseball is a closed environment for the enrichment and enjoyment of a select few, and the fans are encouraged to care solely to bring in outside revenue that the game itself can’t generate. If it makes you feel good that your team won a game, or a series, or qualified for the playoffs or whatever, well, that’s okay. But it won’t really make a dime’s worth of difference in your life, and if it does, MLB will try to take that away from you because you’re infringing on their proprietary product – which isn’t for you. Remember the All-Star Game tie from a couple of years ago? And even a casual fan can predict who’s going to go to the playoffs this year. If you’re fan of the Pittsburgh Pirates or the Kansas City Royals, the next six months are not being staged for your benefit.

So if Barry Bonds hangs around, pumps himself up with 42 different chemicals, and smacks 756 dingers, who really cares? What possible difference could it make in your life, your children’s lives, or the price of a cup of coffee if Barry Bonds becomes Major League Baseball’s all-time home run king? The only concern MLB has is whether it will cause you to plunk down another ten bucks for an officially-licensed key ring.

So maybe we won't really care much in the end.

My short take--BB was going to be a first round HoFer, roids or no roids. It's a shame if he really did do the illegal stuff as has been alleged, and I wish he hadn't, because he did not need to.

C'est le baseball.

There are bigger fish to fry.

... game, not sport.

I think such attempts would be a slap to the face of any real baseball fan. Most fans understand that the game has slowly (and sometimes rapidly)changed over time and that you have to make certain allowances for the era the player played in. So what true fan of baseball would need such things. None.

Should he then be in the Hall of Fame?

The Hall of Fame should reflect what a player did on the field. Neither Rose nor Shoeless Joe should be barred from the Hall, although I concur with banning Rose from being involved with a team.

I'd be of a different opinion if it was shown that Rose bet on games he played in and then threw them. In that case, he wouldn't deserve to be in the Hall.

asterisks beside them. The "users" have not only tainted their own, but ALL records, since there's a high probability that some players used, but not in such a noticeable way..

Perhaps the league needs to set weight/height/cranium circumference limits :sarcasm:..

I suspect that football players use also...maybe even basketball...who knows?

What grown-up millionaires do to their bodies, is of little consequence to me personally....but I DO hate the fact that 'sports millionaires' are the superheroes of so many little kids who grow up thinking that THEY have what it takes to BE like them..

and

the coaches of the young players need a total attitude readjustment. The encourage the experimentation whether they know it or not, because they send a message to young players that they should be willing to do ANYTHING to be the best..

I am not a sports fan..and when my son played sports, we paid very close attention...

Everyone else "hates Barry Bonds," even if they've never uttered his name, or could pick him out of a lineup. We just hate him. Because, uh...because...well, he's yet to explain that leap of logic, but he MUST be right! He said so!

did pete rose break the law when he bet on baseball? i guess you think that was ok, cause there was no law broken? the reaches that can be made because people don't like a guy are amazing to see. now it is all about your outrage that the law was broken. just say no to drugs.

You just refuse to read my posts, or you're unable to comprehend them. I'm not talking about retroactively applying a law which was wasn't in effect. YOU made up that part, and you can't find such a sentiment anywhere in my posts. YOU say this is my position simply because I "hate Barry Bonds," although his name was never mentioned in my posts. You just keep jumping all over the place, changing your argument to suit the post/poster you're responding to. You are being dishonest and disingenuous. Was there indeed no law regarding the type of betting Pete Rose did? If not, yet there WAS a MBL rule in place, I'm still not even sure your argument applies, because his betting didn't have anything to do with his performance, as far as anyone is able to demonstrate conclusively.

However, MY stance was very clearly about those who broke laws or rules which were on the books, which regulated the particular players at that particular time. With each post, you attribute an entirely new position to me which I simply never advanced. You obviously have a hard-on for Barry Bonds, and want to see his records stand. Yay. Good for you. But why does that have to make you feel the need to engage in such low, weaselly debating tactics like changing subjects and putting words in other posters' mouths?

which rule did bonds/mcgwire/sosa break? and how would you propose it is proven?

Just show me ONE POST, one place where said I was advocating going back into history and re-examining that which has already been codified? I very specifically posted about athletes PROVEN to have broken the rules or the law. I said it, I said it again, I repeated it, I am repeating it now...


...and yet, I get the feeling you're still going to come back with some twisted interpretation of my words. Bow down to Barry Bonds if you feel you must. I could give a rat's ass. If a law was broken by a specific individual, and that transgression has been proved, theen that person must pay the price. But nowhere, anywhere, have I stated we should go back in time and attempt to slap penalties on people who have not been demonstrated to have broken any rule or law.

"If it can be know factually that a player was using performance-enhancing drugs during the time his/her records were set, I think an asterisk is a fine "remedy.""

how far back is history to you? once again i ask - which rule would you go back and investigate?

These two are clearly on something.

* Proven steroid user

cheated. and erasing them would do just that- wipe it from history and you/future people do not have anything for reference if this should occure.

Nah erasing them is too easy of a punishment

Now asterisks is much better

And I want my money back.

when he was hitting 45+ HR's a year? You cant. And as much as I would like to see their numbers amended, it cant be done. You cant prove what they might have been taking years ago.

And you can't prove beyond doubt that someone was juiced a decade ago. On the other hand, baseball is not a court of law and the commissioner has the authority to act "in the best interests of the game."

Such as through a grand jury investigation. Obviously, administering drug tests today won't tell you what a player was injecting 10 years ago.

Why shuold only those approaching records suffer. Scrub all the users or scrub none. Maybe they shuold just scrub MLB and the owners since they all knew what was going on but said nothing as the money kept rolling in.

stating that only one minority can have more homeruns than babe ruth. then this whole uproar would die down.

So you believe that this whole controversy is grounded in racism? That's your stance?

Race has nothing to do with this whatsoever. There is NOTHING in any sport more sacred than the Baseball RECORD BOOK.

And in my book, if you cheat, you don't get in. That goes for the Hall of Fame too.

Bake

that baseball turned a blind eye for decades and finally do something when a book comes out and a few sponsors start pulling money. that is funny.

mcgwire.

i don't see calls for investigating lance armstrong.

the only reason this is going on and on is barry bonds.

that if they were juicing, they were cheating. It's not "just" your beloved Barry.

As for Lance, well, I don't really give a damn about the Tour de France anyway.

Bake

I'm not sure how you'd prove that, but if it were proved I wouldn't shed a tear if he was removed from the record book.

At least I can admit it about my "hero", unlike some around here.

Bake

Bake

manny ramirez is juiced. thats just manny being manny.

If you read an earlier post you'll see that my own all-time greatest baseball hero is Hank Aaron. I wouldn't be a baseball fan today if not for many days spent listening to Braves games on the radio. Nonetheless, eventually someone wil break Aaron's record. I'd rather see someone like A-Rod or Griffey break it than a cheater like Bonds. Best of all would be Andruw Jones.

And as far as I'm concerned the greatest pitcher of all time was Bob Gibson. Clemens isn't nearly as intimidating as Gibson was.

Helluva intimidator, great fast ball, all-around great pitcher. VASTLY underrated.

Bake

This has nothing to do with Ty Cobb being a racist. That didn't affect his ability to play the game.
When you take performance enhancing drugs and they do just that, they enhance your performance, you are CHEATING.
Everyone should be on an even playing field. (No pun intended.)

Play with your natural abilities or don't play at all. It's really simple. A five year old can tell you that you are not supposed to cheat. Why are grown men allowed to get away with this behavior? And in professional sports, where ability and paycheck go hand in hand. You wouldn't approve of someone in your company cheating and lying so that they can get ahead and make more money. No, you wouldn't say it's OK. You'd fire them. Period. And probably take them to court as well.

Baseball is supposed to be America's favorite sport, all "Mom and apple pie, flag waving" American sport. I abhor the message this is sending to kids. Go ahead and cheat. Go ahead and lie. It's the new American way. Hell, * does it. Barry Bonds does it.
That makes it right, yes?

Baseball doesn't get a free pass just because it's baseball.

The records should be tossed, the player given a suspension and kids should be given the message that it's NOT OK to behave this way. EVER.

If it's not OK for * and company to cheat and lie, then it's not OK for athletes to do it either.
Got that?

Personally, I'd kick his sorry cheating ass OUT before he has the chance to break Hammerin' Hank's record, and I'd erase him from the record books entirely. Blood test or no blood test. I think he's guilty. Guilty as homemade sin. Anybody that doesn't think he was juicing (and may still be) is just sticking his/her head in the sand. The new books out seem to provide pretty good evidence, according to ESPN at least. Frankly, I thought Bonds was juicing before those ever came out anyway.

Can you go back and investigate Sosa and McGwire? Yeah. And it kills me to say it, particularly since they SAVED BASEBALL during the Great Home Run Chase Season. And I loved to watch 'em both. But if they were juicing, they were cheating. Sigh.

Bonds? Just a cheating asshole who is now crying that his "life is in shambles." Oh -- Keith Olbermann's take on the "shambles" thing last night was priceless!! Let's see: he's made over $140 million in his career, he's still healthy, he still has his family, and HE STILL GETS TO PLAY BASEBALL!! And his life is in shambles???? What a fucking crybaby! Poor Barry!! Go the fuck away.

Bake

Both 58%
Take away records 19%
Nothing 15%
Suspension 8%
Total Votes: 41,600

and early 80s that a lot of people in baseball were on speed. We gonna strip any records for any of the players from that era that have written tell-all books about their use?

mark mcgwire and barry bonds. there was no unfairness in the sacred sport of baseball before palmeiro and sosa. we must defend the integrity of pete rose and babe ruth.

that people want to deify players from the past. Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb and many of the other greats of the past were EXTREMELY competitive human beings. You have to be to get to the top. Who knows what they would have done faced with the option of today's performance enhancing drugs. Human nature is such that at least SOME of them would have willingly bent over for the needle.

they simply did it by lowering the performance of their competition ensuring that they would not have to face the best players that other races had to offer.

i would propose asterisks for all records set before integration of major league baseball.

anyway. They've raised the mound. They've lowered the mound. Stadium dimensions have changed. Training methods have changed. Hell, human beings have generally gotten bigger due to changes in diet.

How can you ever hope to compare one person's records against one set of opponents against someone else's record against a completely different set of opponents? It's silly.

Before the shit hit the fan. Barry wants to keep sticking it in everybody's face.

Bake

Barry Bonds - "sticking it in everybody's face"

Cal Ripken Jr - "playing for the love of the game"

I'd say he's sticking it in our faces. He wants the record and he's willing to cheat to get it. That's sticking it in our faces.

Bake

Please explain the MLB rule Bonds has broken in the last decade...or the drug test he failed.

Is he sticking it in your face personally? I doubt. You're probably upset because, as a baseball fan, you think he's disgraced the game through his alleged use of performance enhancing substances (which were not against the rules as baseball set them up). Fine...I was disgusted by Cal Ripken toward the end of his streak because he absolutely killed the Orioles in some games. He was the most selfish player I've ever seen.

Has he failed a drug test? Perhaps not. Is he juicing? Are you really going to argue that he's NOT? That anybody his age can bulk up the way Bonds did in that short a time WITHOUT juicing?

As for Ripken, I'm not a fan of his either, and I understand your disdain for him.

Bake

The records are tainted. Roger Maris should be re-installed as the single season Home Run king and Barry Bonds should be banned.

if it illegal for one goose, it should be illegal for the pack of 'em....whatever illegality it may be.